Ship Captains

Hello. I am not a FE'er or RE'er because frankly I don't know what shape the earth is, nor does it matter much. I do have a question for FE'ers though. Would you consider ship captains part of the conspiracy? In order to know where there are going, they would need a basic knowledge of geography. They might even use a map (although I don't know this for sure since I am not a ship captain). Wouldn't their sense of direction be off if they believe the round earth models to be true? If there sense of direction was off, they would never get anywhere. So by sailing to the correct places almost all the time, they would have to know how the earth is shaped. In this case, they would have to know the earth was flat if it indeed is. Thanks for reading my post and I hope someone can answer it honestly without making fun of it or simply pointing out mistakes I made (again I am not FE or RE oriented). Thanks.

They may be part of the conspericy, or maybe their navigation tools fool them into believeing the earth is round.

They may be part of the conspericy, or maybe their navigation tools fool them into believeing the earth is round.

They're supposed to be able to navigate even when their equipment is down.

They may be part of the conspericy, or maybe their navigation tools fool them into believeing the earth is round.

They "may" be part of the conspiracy but what if they aren't. There would be too many people in on the conspiracy if you are now including ship captains, pilots, navy, people leisurely traveling the planet. Someone might say, "Wait a minute something is funny, it takes longer to travel along the southern hemisphere than it does the northern." How would their tools fool them into believing the earth is round?

They may be part of the conspericy, or maybe their navigation tools fool them into believeing the earth is round.

Even sailors in the days before GPS and other such modern tools had no problems navigating, basing their navigation methods on a round earth orbiting the sun.

Even sailors in the days before GPS and other such modern tools had no problems navigating, basing their navigation methods on a round earth orbiting the sun.

True. And before that, other sailors based their navigation methods on a flat earth with a celestial canopy overhead.

Quote from: "acerbus80"

Even sailors in the days before GPS and other such modern tools had no problems navigating, basing their navigation methods on a round earth orbiting the sun.

True. And before that, other sailors based their navigation methods on a flat earth with a celestial canopy overhead.

Interesting point there. There were people sailing in every country hundreds of years ago, all of whom probably thought the world was flat. They would then be using flat earth maps to get from place to place, though I might add, they didn't arrive to the places they wanted as often and accurately as today. Maybe this is because (a) the earth is round, or (b) the earth is flat, they just didn't have good maps and technology yet.

Interesting point there. There were people sailing in every country hundreds of years ago, all of whom probably thought the world was flat. They would then be using flat earth maps to get from place to place, though I might add, they didn't arrive to the places they wanted as often and accurately as today. Maybe this is because (a) the earth is round, or (b) the earth is flat, they just didn't have good maps and technology yet.

Actually, they didn't have accurate timepieces. In order to know their exact location on the globe... or disk, they needed to know the current time at the place they came from. However, their clocks used to be based on the pendulum, which does not work well in a ship.

Actually, they didn't have accurate timepieces. In order to know their exact location on the globe... or disk, they needed to know the current time at the place they came from. However, their clocks used to be based on the pendulum, which does not work well in a ship.

If they didn't know the earth is round, then they would have had no idea how to use an accurate clock as a navigational aid, so I'm pretty sure this is completely irrelevant.

Not necesarily so... the technique works for both the RE and the FE models.

Quote from: "acerbus80"

Even sailors in the days before GPS and other such modern tools had no problems navigating, basing their navigation methods on a round earth orbiting the sun.

True. And before that, other sailors based their navigation methods on a flat earth with a celestial canopy overhead.

What does that have to do with anything?

Quote from: "skeptical scientist"

Quote from: "acerbus80"

Even sailors in the days before GPS and other such modern tools had no problems navigating, basing their navigation methods on a round earth orbiting the sun.

True. And before that, other sailors based their navigation methods on a flat earth with a celestial canopy overhead.

What does that have to do with anything?

Just because one is able to navigate with a specific model in mind doesn't necessarily mean that model is correct. Thinking the world is flat will enable you to get around Chicago quite well.

Quote from: "dantheman40k"

Quote from: "skeptical scientist"

Quote from: "acerbus80"

Even sailors in the days before GPS and other such modern tools had no problems navigating, basing their navigation methods on a round earth orbiting the sun.

True. And before that, other sailors based their navigation methods on a flat earth with a celestial canopy overhead.

What does that have to do with anything?

Just because one is able to navigate with a specific model in mind doesn't necessarily mean that model is correct. Thinking the world is flat will enable you to get around Chicago quite well.

Today, yes, one could easily get to Chicago.  With maps, roadsigns, GPS, etc.  

But crossing vast oceans or massive expanses of plains with nothing more than the sun and stars as navigation guides, based on a flat earth model, they wouldn't have worked.  As mentioned before in this thread, such methods were made possible by being able to track time, based on the fact that the earth orbited the sun, the stars were in x position at x point in time, so forth and so on.  As the flat earth map proposes, they never would have been able to create an accurate clock, as the suns speed in it's orbit would be constantly changing, accelerating for half the year, and decelerating the other half.  This would have completely detrimented their navigation abilites, not to mention their map making abilities as well.

Columbus crossed the Atlantic without an accurate clock. And the FE model does permit "latitude" (distance from the north pole/equator) to be measured by taking the angle of the sun or north star above the horizon, and also longitude could be determined by an accurate clock. There's nothing that proves the earth is round. Also, when was the last time you navigated across an ocean with nothing but a sextant?

At Colubus' time, the 24 hour clock had already been accepted, tried, and true, by the sundial and othe rudimentary methods of telling time.  Even the Aztecs and other such civiliations had accepted it.  

As a sundial obiviously wasn't a reliable or feasible source of telling time on a ship, they adapted and had hourglasses, which were very accurate.  They did have a reliable and accurate clock.

At Colubus' time, the 24 hour clock had already been accepted, tried, and true, by the sundial and othe rudimentary methods of telling time.  Even the Aztecs and other such civiliations had accepted it.  

As a sundial obiviously wasn't a reliable or feasible source of telling time on a ship, they adapted and had hourglasses, which were very accurate.  They did have a reliable and accurate clock.

The clocks referred to in this thread are not to keep local time, as a sundial does, but to keep track of the time in Lisbon, or wherever the home port is, and to use that to determine longitude. No such device existed at the time of Columbus. The first clock that was deemed adequate for keeping time at sea and thereby determining longitude was built by John Harrison in the 18th century - long after Columbus (for more details, read Dava Sobel's excellent book, Longitude). Columbus had no good means of determining his longitude - if he had, he probably wouldn't have mistaken America for India.

anyway...about my original post

anyway...about my original post

What about it?

Quote from: "UmExcuseMe"

anyway...about my original post

What about it?

What do you mean what about it? I'm trying to direct conversation more towards the original post of mine as it seems to have been forgotten by people posting here.

Quote from: "midgard"

Quote from: "UmExcuseMe"

anyway...about my original post

What about it?

What do you mean what about it? I'm trying to direct conversation more towards the original post of mine as it seems to have been forgotten by people posting here.

Yeah but you're original post was such a rambling sack of shit I thought you might like to try again and be more concise.

Sorry for rambling...here is a more concise post:

Would you consider ship captains part of the conspiracy? In order to know where there are going, they would need a basic knowledge of geography. They might even use a map. Wouldn't their sense of direction be off if they believe the round earth models to be true? If there sense of direction was off, they would never get anywhere. So by sailing to the correct places almost all the time, they would have to know how the earth is shaped. In this case, they would have to know the earth was flat if it indeed is.

Sorry for rambling...here is a more concise post:

Would you consider ship captains part of the conspiracy? In order to know where there are going, they would need a basic knowledge of geography. They might even use a map. Wouldn't their sense of direction be off if they believe the round earth models to be true? If there sense of direction was off, they would never get anywhere. So by sailing to the correct places almost all the time, they would have to know how the earth is shaped. In this case, they would have to know the earth was flat if it indeed is.

Huh? I thought you said you weren't going to ramble anymore...

Anyway the answers are:
Yes.
See above.

If you are unsure what I'm answering read your post.

So ship captains, airplane pilots, NASA, the government of every nation, and military are all part of the conspiracy but not a single person has leaked the information?

So ship captains, airplane pilots, NASA, the government of every nation, and military are all part of the conspiracy but not a single person has leaked the information?

That's not what I said.

The conspiracy has control over intercontinental transport, NASA, that little outpost in Antartica and so on. They have nothing to do with government (despite what the FAQ says).

Obviously nobody has leaked information otherwise the whole thing would be blown. I thought you'd be able to work that out for yourself.

I know you didn't say that. It was my own question. I know NASA is probably part of some conspiracy as the moon landing was faked. But anyone who decides to take their own plane or boat and travel across the world is part of the conspiracy? The would be using RE maps and systems. If they were to arrive at the wrong place, they would realize the maps are wrong.

I know you didn't say that. It was my own question. I know NASA is probably part of some conspiracy as the moon landing was faked. But anyone who decides to take their own plane or boat and travel across the world is part of the conspiracy? The would be using RE maps and systems. If they were to arrive at the wrong place, they would realize the maps are wrong.

How many people do you actual know that have sailed around the world? Be honest, not like j buck.

The Conspiracy constantly creates media stories of solo sailers circumnavigating the globe.

Quote from: "UmExcuseMe"

I know you didn't say that. It was my own question. I know NASA is probably part of some conspiracy as the moon landing was faked. But anyone who decides to take their own plane or boat and travel across the world is part of the conspiracy? The would be using RE maps and systems. If they were to arrive at the wrong place, they would realize the maps are wrong.

How many people do you actual know that have sailed around the world? Be honest, not like j buck.

The Conspiracy constantly creates media stories of solo sailers circumnavigating the globe.

OK just stop, please just stop. First off all you people dont know what you are talking about. If you did, you would have seen that this flat earth theory, is just that, a theory. Secondly, I refuse to believe the goverment would waste so much time creating this retarded conspiracy, its just too out of character, they couldnt cover up where Bill Clinton keeps his cigars, do you think that they could fake some thing like this? If so, what for, is it an elobrate pratical joke or something? The earth is round people get over it. Jesus Christ this kind of thing sickens me, all this progress that mankind has done all of these great things that have been accomplished. Landing on the Moon, sending probes to Mars, the Hubble Telescope and now a bunch of little shits on the internet are going around posting shit about it not happening and 'its all a lie conspiracy!!!!' well heres an idea, go tell Buzz Aldrin about your little theories, I'm sure he would be only too happy to listen. Thats another thing that bothers me about you flat earthers. Where are the demonstrations in the streets? Why arnt you lobbying Congress to 'stop the lies?' I see no expeditions to the South Pole! Afraid of dieing? You little pussies are too scared of dieing for what you believe in? Wanna know what I think? Youre scared. Thats it, youre scared, scared of being proven wrong, scared of being owned. You spineless little fuckwits. May God [if he exists] have mercy on your soul.

So basically, earth travel using RE maps can be accurate if traveling, say, from Canada to South America. But to travel from continent to continent across the world would require an accurate FE map. I guess circumnavigating the world is extremely rare, but for the people that have done it they would have had to use FE maps. The only people I have heard to travel around the world was Magellan's crew members (not sure of spelling).

OK just stop, please just stop. First off all you people dont know what you are talking about. If you did, you would have seen that this flat earth theory, is just that, a theory. Secondly, I refuse to believe the goverment would waste so much time creating this retarded conspiracy, its just too out of character, they couldnt cover up where Bill Clinton keeps his cigars, do you think that they could fake some thing like this? If so, what for, is it an elobrate pratical joke or something? The earth is round people get over it. Jesus Christ this kind of thing sickens me, all this progress that mankind has done all of these great things that have been accomplished. Landing on the Moon, sending probes to Mars, the Hubble Telescope and now a bunch of little shits on the internet are going around posting shit about it not happening and 'its all a lie conspiracy!!!!' well heres an idea, go tell Buzz Aldrin about your little theories, I'm sure he would be only too happy to listen. Thats another thing that bothers me about you flat earthers. Where are the demonstrations in the streets? Why arnt you lobbying Congress to 'stop the lies?' I see no expeditions to the South Pole! Afraid of dieing? You little pussies are too scared of dieing for what you believe in? Wanna know what I think? Youre scared. Thats it, youre scared, scared of being proven wrong, scared of being owned. You spineless little fuckwits. May God [if he exists] have mercy on your soul.

Amen.