Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.

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Empirical

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2016, 04:30:55 PM »
That explains how a star can be south of two people on opposite sides of the planet how?

Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2016, 04:37:28 PM »
That explains how a star can be south of two people on opposite sides of the planet how?

From RET, my impression is that explains anything and everything. A truly powerful argument, indeed.
 ;D
"It is not necessary that hypotheses should be true, or even probable; it is sufficient that they lead to results of calculation which agree with calculation".
Copernicus

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rabinoz

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2016, 06:11:28 PM »
Though I am not an expert in this field, I would humbly draw your attention to refraction, reflection and all other kinds of optical distortions and atmospheric effects, alone or combined. RET widely uses this explanation, in combination with innuendoes on individual or collective hallucination and/or impaired vision, if necessary. I'm surprised I have to remind you that.

For example, this is how Wikipedia explains the famous Miracle of the Sun:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun
Though I too am not an expert in this field, I would humbly draw your attention to the fact that the "Miracle_of_the_Sun" was an extraordinary event, it would hardly have made the news otherwise.
Of course there are mirages of various sorts but again they are unusual events.  You could also look up the "Fata Morgana".

Also a small amount of refraction for objects (sun or moon) near the horizon (not often over 0.5°) is not that uncommon, but not the massive amount that might explain the "southern circumpolar stars".  Even given massive refraction, I still cannot see any possible mechanism!

On the other hand the "circumpolar stars" in the Northern and Southern Hemispheres are seen any time from any longitude whenever the sky is clear enough.

Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2016, 10:49:43 PM »
Though I am not an expert in this field, I would humbly draw your attention to refraction, reflection and all other kinds of optical distortions and atmospheric effects, alone or combined. RET widely uses this explanation, in combination with innuendoes on individual or collective hallucination and/or impaired vision, if necessary. I'm surprised I have to remind you that.

For example, this is how Wikipedia explains the famous Miracle of the Sun:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun
Though I too am not an expert in this field, I would humbly draw your attention to the fact that the "Miracle_of_the_Sun" was an extraordinary event, it would hardly have made the news otherwise.
Of course there are mirages of various sorts but again they are unusual events.  You could also look up the "Fata Morgana".

Also a small amount of refraction for objects (sun or moon) near the horizon (not often over 0.5°) is not that uncommon, but not the massive amount that might explain the "southern circumpolar stars".  Even given massive refraction, I still cannot see any possible mechanism!

On the other hand the "circumpolar stars" in the Northern and Southern Hemispheres are seen any time from any longitude whenever the sky is clear enough.

I thought my point was obvious (sapientis sat), but let me explain that to you. That example shows that even in the case of apparent miracle (note that nobody in the crowd of many hundred folks had any doubt about that, including highly educated people), they are trying to explain it by some distortions, atmospheric effects etc. Thus, it is not surprising (at least, for me) that for less extraordinary events such "explanations" are being widely used by REers, with amusing variations. For example, you may check yourself how Wikipedia describes repeats of those experiments conducted by Parallax. It looks like they are ready to rather admit that the light is propagating along the RE curvature, wow. In such a way, one can explain absolutely everything (s)he pleases. Air temperature gradients... coefficients of refraction that could not be neither verified nor reproduced... systems of lenses in the sky... the light beams going along curved lines... occasionally consumed hallucinogenic mushrooms in local restaurants... Whatever.

Being inspired by such RET creativity, we might, for example, humbly hypothesize that using modern laser projectors, governments of Earth can draw any constellations in the sky and imitate "ISS", "spaceships", "comets", "asteroids"... whatever they please. Or show us some movie. Why not? Use your fantasy, be RE-creative.

"are seen any time from any longitude whenever the sky is clear enough."
You meant latitude, didn't you?
 ;D
"It is not necessary that hypotheses should be true, or even probable; it is sufficient that they lead to results of calculation which agree with calculation".
Copernicus

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rabinoz

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2016, 12:04:33 AM »
Being inspired by such RET creativity, we might, for example, humbly hypothesize that using modern laser projectors, governments of Earth can draw any constellations in the sky and imitate "ISS", "spaceships", "comets", "asteroids"... whatever they please. Or show us some movie. Why not? Use your fantasy, be RE-creative.

"are seen any time from any longitude whenever the sky is clear enough."
You meant latitude, didn't you?
 ;D

Projecting an image seems to need something to project it on.  What do you suggest for that?

Also these southern constellations are visible from Australia, South Africa and South America, and commonly from two of these at the same time. From all of these locations the South Celestial Pole is exactly due south from ALL of these locations!

The suggestion that this might be a projection is pure fantasy!  Not the least because these southern constellations have been visible in exactly the way for centuries.

As for the ISS please explain how it appears right "on cue" all over the world. I am sorry we just don't have the imagination you have, but you really need for your flat earth!

And NO, I really did mean exactly what I said "These constellations are seen any time from any longitude whenever the sky is clear enough.". That is from Australia, South Africa and South America, though I should have said  "whenever night the sky is clear enough"

Once you understand it, believe me, the rotating globe needs a lot less magic than any flat earth model I have seen.
Maybe you explain you flat earth model and map, we might learn something!


Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2016, 06:24:32 AM »
Being inspired by such RET creativity, we might, for example, humbly hypothesize that using modern laser projectors, governments of Earth can draw any constellations in the sky and imitate "ISS", "spaceships", "comets", "asteroids"... whatever they please. Or show us some movie. Why not? Use your fantasy, be RE-creative.

"are seen any time from any longitude whenever the sky is clear enough."
You meant latitude, didn't you?
 ;D

Projecting an image seems to need something to project it on.  What do you suggest for that?

Also these southern constellations are visible from Australia, South Africa and South America, and commonly from two of these at the same time. From all of these locations the South Celestial Pole is exactly due south from ALL of these locations!

The suggestion that this might be a projection is pure fantasy!  Not the least because these southern constellations have been visible in exactly the way for centuries.

As for the ISS please explain how it appears right "on cue" all over the world. I am sorry we just don't have the imagination you have, but you really need for your flat earth!

And NO, I really did mean exactly what I said "These constellations are seen any time from any longitude whenever the sky is clear enough.". That is from Australia, South Africa and South America, though I should have said  "whenever night the sky is clear enough"

Once you understand it, believe me, the rotating globe needs a lot less magic than any flat earth model I have seen.
Maybe you explain you flat earth model and map, we might learn something!

Dear Rabinoz,

If I am not mistaken, your question was, how and why we can see certain stars in the sky. I am just trying to help you, providing useful (I hope) hints. I do not want to exert any intellectual or propaganda pressure on you, for it could hamper and distort your mental development. I mean, if you are really interested in finding a suitable answer to your question, let your brain itself find it in the most natural and least painful way. I am not going to do any harm to you. Just relax and let the truth gradually penetrate your mind.

Please note that the very fact you are here and speaking to me - means you do doubt your current perception of your life and the Universe. You do feel there's something wrong, you are trying to find a solution to your problems, and that is why you are posting here. There is no reason to deny that. There is nothing shameful in that. We all learn.

Projecting an image seems to need something to project it on.  What do you suggest for that?

and
The suggestion that this might be a projection is pure fantasy!

Look. First, you in fact admitted the possibility of that and even started to think how it might be done. Then, your internal RE-censor interfered and closed your mind. Relax and try to keep your mind open. Dig yourself in that direction and in the literature you'll find curious descriptions of some peculiar experiments, in which the government agencies were producing fumes, vapours etc. in the upper atmospheric layers, many years ago. How do you think, why they were doing that? Do you think they've stopped doing that? Do you think they're telling the public everything they are doing? Why, for example, noctilucent clouds were so seldom, if ever, noticed before the 20th century?

"From all of these locations the South Celestial Pole is exactly due south from ALL of these locations!"

May I ask you, how do you know that? Have you been there, in ALL those locations, personally, at the same time?

"these southern constellations have been visible in exactly the way for centuries."
How do you know that? Why you're so sure the data could not be falsified? Did you observe the stars yourself, for centuries?

"As for the ISS please explain how it appears right "on cue" all over the world."
For instance, 'cause they are drawing it in the sky, that's how, - using one projector, then switching to another, all over the world. Do you think it's impossible?

And NO, I really did mean exactly what I said "These constellations are seen any time from any longitude whenever the sky is clear enough.". That is from Australia, South Africa and South America, though I should have said  "whenever night the sky is clear enough"
 ;D
Then they can not be seen from any longitude.

"the rotating globe needs a lot less magic than any flat earth model I have seen."
Yeah, yeah. Sure. Just one more example of the umost absurdity of that rotating globe, filled with molten dense magma. Let's admit for a brief moment, that RE is right, that globe is rotating and has two tidal bulbs on each side, about 1 meter high or so, as they teach us. The bulbs, filled with hot dense magma at immense pressure, covered with Earth crust made of the solid rock layer 10 to 50 km thick, are, therefore, moving under the surface of the globe with the speed of approximately 500 m/s (at the equator). Interesting, isn't it? You could calculate the volume and mass of those things yourself. Just a few questions:

How that dense magma can travel under the crust at 500 m/s? Otherwise, those tidal bulbs won't be moving.

Why the Earth crust is not cracking and we do not see cheerful fountains of pressurised magma (500 m/s!) at the equator, twice a day?

Why that magnificent process does not influence the acting volcanoes?
"It is not necessary that hypotheses should be true, or even probable; it is sufficient that they lead to results of calculation which agree with calculation".
Copernicus

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rabinoz

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2016, 06:32:36 PM »
Dear Rabinoz,
If I am not mistaken, your question was, how and why we can see certain stars in the sky. I am just trying to help you, providing useful (I hope) hints. I do not want to exert any intellectual or propaganda pressure on you, for it could hamper and distort your mental development. I mean, if you are really interested in finding a suitable answer to your question, let your brain itself find it in the most natural and least painful way. I am not going to do any harm to you. Just relax and let the truth gradually penetrate your mind.
I have never seen a less humble, nor sanctimonious "scientist" than Humble_Scientist.  I imagine you did the course on "Humility and how I achieved it!" - I think it was at Pale Hernigy College - something like that, bit hard to remember.  I think you must have failed to read the book "How to win friends and Influence People", at least I know that was by Dale Carnegie - obviously I haven't read it!
And, no I don't need any assistance from you to find these answers.
Quote from: Humble_Scientist
Please note that the very fact you are here and speaking to me - means you do doubt your current perception of your life and the Universe. You do feel there's something wrong, you are trying to find a solution to your problems, and that is why you are posting here. There is no reason to deny that. There is nothing shameful in that. We all learn.
The real psychoanalyst aren't we! And, no that I am certainly not looking for a "solution to my problems".  I am trying to get some answers from you about the OP of this thread!
Quote from: Humble_Scientist
Projecting an image seems to need something to project it on.  What do you suggest for that?
and
The suggestion that this might be a projection is pure fantasy!
Look. First, you in fact admitted the possibility of that and even started to think how it might be done. Then, your internal RE-censor interfered and closed your mind. Relax and try to keep your mind open.
You read far too much into a few words.  I guess that is to be expected from an obviously conspiracy fearing mind, always afraid this organisation or that is out to get you.
Sorry, I was just assuming that you would see this whole idea of a "projection is pure fantasy!" was purely fantasy!
Quote from: Humble_Scientist
Dig yourself in that direction and in the literature you'll find curious descriptions of some peculiar experiments, in which the government agencies were producing fumes, vapours etc. in the upper atmospheric layers, many years ago. How do you think, why they were doing that? Do you think they've stopped doing that? Do you think they're telling the public everything they are doing? Why, for example, noctilucent clouds were so seldom, if ever, noticed before the 20th century?
As I said a conspiracy here, a conspiracy there, conspiracies, conspiracies everywhere!  You claim that "for example, noctilucent clouds were so seldom, if ever, noticed before the 20th century?".  Well, firstly a bit of evidence that "noctilucent clouds " even exist and secondly how do you know that "were so seldom, if ever, noticed before the 20th century", I suppose you were old enough to observe them first hand before 1900!
Quote from: Humble_Scientist
"From all of these locations the South Celestial Pole is exactly due south from ALL of these locations!"

May I ask you, how do you know that? Have you been there, in ALL those locations, personally, at the same time?
No, I have not been there, but neither have you!  I have read reports from observers in both places, and I have seen video of stars rotating about the South Celestial Pole from both Sydney Australia and from Chile.
Quote from: Humble_Scientist
"these southern constellations have been visible in exactly the way for centuries."
How do you know that? Why you're so sure the data could not be falsified? Did you observe the stars yourself, for centuries?
No, I am not going to claim that I was there!  And yes, there are reports from explorers going back centuries.  Falsified? Why?  Oh, sorry, it must have been another conspiracy to hide you precious Pepperoni Pizza Planet!
Quote from: Humble_Scientist
"As for the ISS please explain how it appears right "on cue" all over the world."
For instance, 'cause they are drawing it in the sky, that's how, - using one projector, then switching to another, all over the world. Do you think it's impossible?
And are you really suggesting that as possibility?  Just how many millions of these projectors must there be around the earth.
Quote from: Humble_Scientist
And NO, I really did mean exactly what I said "These constellations are seen any time from any longitude whenever the sky is clear enough.". That is from Australia, South Africa and South America, though I should have said  "whenever night the sky is clear enough"

Then they can not be seen from any longitude.
I gave those countries because that is where most observers are! But, how do you infer from "Then they can not be seen from any longitude." from that.  No, you can't see the stars on a cloudy night, and no you cannot see the stars in daytime  ::)(well occasionally Venus is visible near sunset or sunrise - but that "little light in the sky" is a planet, not a star!   ::) ).
Quote from: Humble_Scientist
"the rotating globe needs a lot less magic than any flat earth model I have seen."
Yeah, yeah. Sure. Just one more example of the umost absurdity of that rotating globe, filled with molten dense magma. Let's admit for a brief moment, that RE is right, that globe is rotating and has two tidal bulbs on each side, about 1 meter high or so, as they teach us. The bulbs, filled with hot dense magma at immense pressure, covered with Earth crust made of the solid rock layer 10 to 50 km thick, are, therefore, moving under the surface of the globe with the speed of approximately 500 m/s (at the equator). Interesting, isn't it? You could calculate the volume and mass of those things yourself. Just a few questions:
How that dense magma can travel under the crust at 500 m/s? Otherwise, those tidal bulbs won't be moving.
Why the Earth crust is not cracking and we do not see cheerful fountains of pressurised magma (500 m/s!) at the equator, twice a day?
Why that magnificent process does not influence the acting volcanoes?

I don't think I mentioned tides.  It's not a simple topic - and there's no way I am going to try to cover it here, like 2 tides a day and they lag the overhead moon, etc!
Maybe the Humble_Scientist can give some logical explanation.

Just remember that the Heliocentric Globe Model took around 2,000 years to "come to fruition", and many details much longer than that.
You will find that the real humble scientists will concede that there are still many details being determined - weather systems and under the oceans to name just a couple.

BTW if you do chance to reply:
  • Leave the psychoanalysis gobbledygook out.
  • Leave the conspiracy gobbledygook out.
  • Present some evidence you have for what you claim.
  • If you are going to criticise aspects of the globe model, get an understanding of if first.
  • Possibly present just what your alternative to the Heliocentric Globe might be, with shape of your earth, paths of sun, moon, planets and stars
  • It would be good to have a map for this, because mariners for over 600 years have been navigating the globe and the maps they produced fitted on a globe - that's why many ancient mariners actually took a large globe with them - gave them a better understanding of where they were on the earth's surface!

?

Empirical

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2016, 08:33:00 AM »
That explains how a star can be south of two people on opposite sides of the planet how?

From RET, my impression is that explains anything and everything. A truly powerful argument, indeed.
 ;D
Im talking about the FE map, you can't have a star being south of Africa, South America and Australia at the same time, if I am wrong show me a FE map where a star can be south of every point.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2016, 01:41:16 PM »
Im talking about the FE map

Which FE map are you referring to? 

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Empirical

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2016, 03:36:12 PM »
Any one where a triangle drawn from the southernmost point of Africa, South America and Australia will contain the north pole. A bit of geometry tells you that this would make it impossible for a star to be south of all three points.

Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2016, 04:36:11 PM »
Dear Rabinoz,
If I am not mistaken, your question was, how and why we can see certain stars in the sky. I am just trying to help you, providing useful (I hope) hints. I do not want to exert any intellectual or propaganda pressure on you, for it could hamper and distort your mental development. I mean, if you are really interested in finding a suitable answer to your question, let your brain itself find it in the most natural and least painful way. I am not going to do any harm to you. Just relax and let the truth gradually penetrate your mind.
I have never seen a less humble, nor sanctimonious "scientist" than Humble_Scientist.  I imagine you did the course on "Humility and how I achieved it!" - I think it was at Pale Hernigy College - something like that, bit hard to remember.  I think you must have failed to read the book "How to win friends and Influence People", at least I know that was by Dale Carnegie - obviously I haven't read it!
And, no I don't need any assistance from you to find these answers.
Quote from: Humble_Scientist
Please note that the very fact you are here and speaking to me - means you do doubt your current perception of your life and the Universe. You do feel there's something wrong, you are trying to find a solution to your problems, and that is why you are posting here. There is no reason to deny that. There is nothing shameful in that. We all learn.
The real psychoanalyst aren't we! And, no that I am certainly not looking for a "solution to my problems".  I am trying to get some answers from you about the OP of this thread!
Quote from: Humble_Scientist
Projecting an image seems to need something to project it on.  What do you suggest for that?
and
The suggestion that this might be a projection is pure fantasy!
Look. First, you in fact admitted the possibility of that and even started to think how it might be done. Then, your internal RE-censor interfered and closed your mind. Relax and try to keep your mind open.
You read far too much into a few words.  I guess that is to be expected from an obviously conspiracy fearing mind, always afraid this organisation or that is out to get you.
Sorry, I was just assuming that you would see this whole idea of a "projection is pure fantasy!" was purely fantasy!
Quote from: Humble_Scientist
Dig yourself in that direction and in the literature you'll find curious descriptions of some peculiar experiments, in which the government agencies were producing fumes, vapours etc. in the upper atmospheric layers, many years ago. How do you think, why they were doing that? Do you think they've stopped doing that? Do you think they're telling the public everything they are doing? Why, for example, noctilucent clouds were so seldom, if ever, noticed before the 20th century?
As I said a conspiracy here, a conspiracy there, conspiracies, conspiracies everywhere!  You claim that "for example, noctilucent clouds were so seldom, if ever, noticed before the 20th century?".  Well, firstly a bit of evidence that "noctilucent clouds " even exist and secondly how do you know that "were so seldom, if ever, noticed before the 20th century", I suppose you were old enough to observe them first hand before 1900!
Quote from: Humble_Scientist
"From all of these locations the South Celestial Pole is exactly due south from ALL of these locations!"

May I ask you, how do you know that? Have you been there, in ALL those locations, personally, at the same time?
No, I have not been there, but neither have you!  I have read reports from observers in both places, and I have seen video of stars rotating about the South Celestial Pole from both Sydney Australia and from Chile.
Quote from: Humble_Scientist
"these southern constellations have been visible in exactly the way for centuries."
How do you know that? Why you're so sure the data could not be falsified? Did you observe the stars yourself, for centuries?
No, I am not going to claim that I was there!  And yes, there are reports from explorers going back centuries.  Falsified? Why?  Oh, sorry, it must have been another conspiracy to hide you precious Pepperoni Pizza Planet!
Quote from: Humble_Scientist
"As for the ISS please explain how it appears right "on cue" all over the world."
For instance, 'cause they are drawing it in the sky, that's how, - using one projector, then switching to another, all over the world. Do you think it's impossible?
And are you really suggesting that as possibility?  Just how many millions of these projectors must there be around the earth.
Quote from: Humble_Scientist
And NO, I really did mean exactly what I said "These constellations are seen any time from any longitude whenever the sky is clear enough.". That is from Australia, South Africa and South America, though I should have said  "whenever night the sky is clear enough"

Then they can not be seen from any longitude.
I gave those countries because that is where most observers are! But, how do you infer from "Then they can not be seen from any longitude." from that.  No, you can't see the stars on a cloudy night, and no you cannot see the stars in daytime  ::)(well occasionally Venus is visible near sunset or sunrise - but that "little light in the sky" is a planet, not a star!   ::) ).
Quote from: Humble_Scientist
"the rotating globe needs a lot less magic than any flat earth model I have seen."
Yeah, yeah. Sure. Just one more example of the umost absurdity of that rotating globe, filled with molten dense magma. Let's admit for a brief moment, that RE is right, that globe is rotating and has two tidal bulbs on each side, about 1 meter high or so, as they teach us. The bulbs, filled with hot dense magma at immense pressure, covered with Earth crust made of the solid rock layer 10 to 50 km thick, are, therefore, moving under the surface of the globe with the speed of approximately 500 m/s (at the equator). Interesting, isn't it? You could calculate the volume and mass of those things yourself. Just a few questions:
How that dense magma can travel under the crust at 500 m/s? Otherwise, those tidal bulbs won't be moving.
Why the Earth crust is not cracking and we do not see cheerful fountains of pressurised magma (500 m/s!) at the equator, twice a day?
Why that magnificent process does not influence the acting volcanoes?

I don't think I mentioned tides.  It's not a simple topic - and there's no way I am going to try to cover it here, like 2 tides a day and they lag the overhead moon, etc!
Maybe the Humble_Scientist can give some logical explanation.

Just remember that the Heliocentric Globe Model took around 2,000 years to "come to fruition", and many details much longer than that.
You will find that the real humble scientists will concede that there are still many details being determined - weather systems and under the oceans to name just a couple.

BTW if you do chance to reply:
  • Leave the psychoanalysis gobbledygook out.
  • Leave the conspiracy gobbledygook out.
  • Present some evidence you have for what you claim.
  • If you are going to criticise aspects of the globe model, get an understanding of if first.
  • Possibly present just what your alternative to the Heliocentric Globe might be, with shape of your earth, paths of sun, moon, planets and stars
  • It would be good to have a map for this, because mariners for over 600 years have been navigating the globe and the maps they produced fitted on a globe - that's why many ancient mariners actually took a large globe with them - gave them a better understanding of where they were on the earth's surface!

"no I don't need any assistance from you to find these answers."

As you wish, dear rabinoz. Thanks for conversation.
;D
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 04:56:42 PM by Humble_Scientist »
"It is not necessary that hypotheses should be true, or even probable; it is sufficient that they lead to results of calculation which agree with calculation".
Copernicus

Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2016, 04:55:24 PM »
Any one where a triangle drawn from the southernmost point of Africa, South America and Australia will contain the north pole. A bit of geometry tells you that this would make it impossible for a star to be south of all three points.

A bit of geometry tells us we can not see a piece of paper just above water 6 km away on a round Earth. Yet that was reported.

You are also perfectly welcome to enjoy the view of Toronto 50 km away that I recorded myself. It's in my Youtube collection. Or make your own footage. Toronto is still there, as far as I know.

 ;D

By the way, a bit of geometry also tells us we can not observe a star from Africa, South America and Australia at the same time.
;D
"It is not necessary that hypotheses should be true, or even probable; it is sufficient that they lead to results of calculation which agree with calculation".
Copernicus

?

Alpha2Omega

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2016, 09:22:33 PM »
Any one where a triangle drawn from the southernmost point of Africa, South America and Australia will contain the north pole. A bit of geometry tells you that this would make it impossible for a star to be south of all three points.

A bit of geometry tells us we can not see a piece of paper just above water 6 km away on a round Earth. Yet that was reported.


There are a few problems with this assertion.

1) Just because something was reported doesn't make it true.

2) "Just above" is vague, to say the least.

3) In the presence of an atmosphere, simple geometry is only the starting point since the atmosphere can bend light.

Details, please?

Quote
You are also perfectly welcome to enjoy the view of Toronto 50 km away that I recorded myself. It's in my Youtube collection. Or make your own footage. Toronto is still there, as far as I know.
 ;D

Has anyone disputed the existence of Toronto?

Quote
By the way, a bit of geometry also tells us we can not observe a star from Africa, South America and Australia at the same time.
;D

Really? Please demonstrate this geometry.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Empirical

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2016, 07:02:14 AM »
Any one where a triangle drawn from the southernmost point of Africa, South America and Australia will contain the north pole. A bit of geometry tells you that this would make it impossible for a star to be south of all three points.
By the way, a bit of geometry also tells us we can not observe a star from Africa, South America and Australia at the same time.
;D
Exactly, if the earth was flat you wouldn't see the same star from all three points, yet you do, you can see the southern cross from all of them.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2016, 07:38:02 AM »
Any one where a triangle drawn from the southernmost point of Africa, South America and Australia will contain the north pole. A bit of geometry tells you that this would make it impossible for a star to be south of all three points.
By the way, a bit of geometry also tells us we can not observe a star from Africa, South America and Australia at the same time.
;D
Exactly, if the earth was flat you wouldn't see the same star from all three points, yet you do, you can see the southern cross from all of them.

What makes you think you can see stars from all three of those locations at the same time? 

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Alpha2Omega

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2016, 08:49:21 AM »
Any one where a triangle drawn from the southernmost point of Africa, South America and Australia will contain the north pole. A bit of geometry tells you that this would make it impossible for a star to be south of all three points.
By the way, a bit of geometry also tells us we can not observe a star from Africa, South America and Australia at the same time.
;D
Exactly, if the earth was flat you wouldn't see the same star from all three points, yet you do, you can see the southern cross from all of them.

What makes you think you can see stars from all three of those locations at the same time?

Geometry. I'm still waiting for H_S to show his "bit of geometry" that tells us why this is not possible. Remember, that's what his claim is.

Seeing stars in daylight is obviously more difficult than seeing them at night, but still possible with a telescope if its mount is accurately aligned and calibrated and the star is bright; I suspect this is probably where you're going with this.  Alpha Centauri or Canopus would be easier than Acrux because they're much brighter.
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Empirical

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2016, 08:53:18 AM »
Any one where a triangle drawn from the southernmost point of Africa, South America and Australia will contain the north pole. A bit of geometry tells you that this would make it impossible for a star to be south of all three points.
By the way, a bit of geometry also tells us we can not observe a star from Africa, South America and Australia at the same time.
;D
Exactly, if the earth was flat you wouldn't see the same star from all three points, yet you do, you can see the southern cross from all of them.

What makes you think you can see stars from all three of those locations at the same time?
Maybe not the southernmost points, but a part of each continent can be dark at the same time. http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?iso=20160620T2134
The southern cross will be south of all three continents.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2016, 09:22:25 AM »
Any one where a triangle drawn from the southernmost point of Africa, South America and Australia will contain the north pole. A bit of geometry tells you that this would make it impossible for a star to be south of all three points.
By the way, a bit of geometry also tells us we can not observe a star from Africa, South America and Australia at the same time.
;D
Exactly, if the earth was flat you wouldn't see the same star from all three points, yet you do, you can see the southern cross from all of them.

What makes you think you can see stars from all three of those locations at the same time?

Geometry. I'm still waiting for H_S to show his "bit of geometry" that tells us why this is not possible. Remember, that's what his claim is.

Seeing stars in daylight is obviously more difficult than seeing them at night, but still possible with a telescope if its mount is accurately aligned and calibrated and the star is bright; I suspect this is probably where you're going with this.  Alpha Centauri or Canopus would be easier than Acrux because they're much brighter.

Is it dark in all three of these locations at the same time?  Perhaps you can see stars during the day with your magical gravity telescope? 

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2016, 09:25:07 AM »
Any one where a triangle drawn from the southernmost point of Africa, South America and Australia will contain the north pole. A bit of geometry tells you that this would make it impossible for a star to be south of all three points.
By the way, a bit of geometry also tells us we can not observe a star from Africa, South America and Australia at the same time.
;D
Exactly, if the earth was flat you wouldn't see the same star from all three points, yet you do, you can see the southern cross from all of them.

What makes you think you can see stars from all three of those locations at the same time?
Maybe not the southernmost points, but a part of each continent can be dark at the same time. http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?iso=20160620T2134
The southern cross will be south of all three continents.

So, I suppose the whole premise of this argument was BS then? 

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Empirical

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2016, 09:30:00 AM »
Why? You still have three points in the southern hemisphere that has a star south if all of them. Which is impossible.
Can you show me a map where it is possible.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 09:32:35 AM by Empirical »

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2016, 09:33:10 AM »
Why? You still have three points in the southern hemisphere that have a star south if all of them. Which is impossible.
Can you show me a map where it is possible.

But they can't all see it at the same time.  Are you even reading the thread?

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Empirical

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2016, 09:36:47 AM »
Why? You still have three points in the southern hemisphere that have a star south if all of them. Which is impossible.
Can you show me a map where it is possible.

But they can't all see it at the same time.  Are you even reading the thread?
I gave a link to a daylight map a few posts ago, http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?iso=20160620T2134
A small part of Australia and South America are at night at the same time as Africa.

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Alpha2Omega

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2016, 10:05:21 AM »
Why? You still have three points in the southern hemisphere that have a star south if all of them. Which is impossible.
Can you show me a map where it is possible.

But they can't all see it at the same time.  Are you even reading the thread?
I gave a link to a daylight map a few posts ago, http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?iso=20160620T2134
A small part of Australia and South America are at night at the same time as Africa.
Well, there you go!

Dark at the same time in all three places makes it easier. Now all we need is for H_S to show us why it would be impossible, geometrically, to see the same star from the three continents at the same time.

Is it dark in all three of these locations at the same time? 
Apparently it can be. Good find, Empirical!

Quote
Perhaps you can see stars during the day with your magical gravity telescope?
Yes. It's optics, not magic, though.

Did you mention gravity because optics, like gravity, is another topic of physics that you don't understand?

So, I suppose the whole premise of this argument was BS then?
By the way, a bit of geometry also tells us we can not observe a star from Africa, South America and Australia at the same time.
;D
That part appears to be, unless H_S can provide something more than an empty claim. I'm still waiting for that "bit of geometry ;D". I'm anticipating a long wait.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Empirical

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2016, 12:47:51 PM »
I gave evidence that Jroa was wrong, so he's not coming back to this thread.
FET disproved.
Get Duuuuuunked on.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2016, 01:13:49 PM »
Why? You still have three points in the southern hemisphere that have a star south if all of them. Which is impossible.
Can you show me a map where it is possible.

But they can't all see it at the same time.  Are you even reading the thread?
I gave a link to a daylight map a few posts ago, http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?iso=20160620T2134
A small part of Australia and South America are at night at the same time as Africa.

But you said the southern most part, which is not at night in your picture.  Perhaps you simply change things around to suite your needs?  ::)

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Empirical

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2016, 02:47:07 PM »
Why? You still have three points in the southern hemisphere that have a star south if all of them. Which is impossible.
Can you show me a map where it is possible.

But they can't all see it at the same time.  Are you even reading the thread?
I gave a link to a daylight map a few posts ago, http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?iso=20160620T2134
A small part of Australia and South America are at night at the same time as Africa.

But you said the southern most part, which is not at night in your picture.  Perhaps you simply change things around to suite your needs?  ::)
Read the thread.
You still have three points in the southern hemisphere that have a star south if all of them. Which is impossible.
Can you show me a map where it is possible.

Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2016, 02:54:11 PM »
That part appears to be, unless H_S can provide something more than an empty claim.

Well, the simplest explanation of what you & Empirical have written so far is the following:

If you can simultaneously be in South America, Africa and Australia and observe the stars -

you are smoking a really good stuff!

 ;D
"It is not necessary that hypotheses should be true, or even probable; it is sufficient that they lead to results of calculation which agree with calculation".
Copernicus

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Alpha2Omega

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2016, 07:37:48 PM »
That part appears to be, unless H_S can provide something more than an empty claim.

Well, the simplest explanation of what you & Empirical have written so far is the following:

If you can simultaneously be in South America, Africa and Australia and observe the stars -

you are smoking a really good stuff!

 ;D

Nope, sorry, I don't smoke.

Do you have anything to back this up?
By the way, a bit of geometry also tells us we can not observe a star from Africa, South America and Australia at the same time.
;D

I'd still like to see that "bit of geometry ;D"
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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rabinoz

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2016, 10:25:19 PM »
That part appears to be, unless H_S can provide something more than an empty claim.
Well, the simplest explanation of what you & Empirical have written so far is the following:
If you can simultaneously be in South America, Africa and Australia and observe the stars -
you are smoking a really good stuff!

I don't smoke either and that particular post may not have been addressed to me but here goes:
On January 18 Empirical posted:
The question the thread asks might to be clear, I give a simpler example.
If your at the most southern points of Africa, South America and Australia, part of the southen cross will never go below the horision, I can see no way that this can work on a flat earth.
How do I know they never go below the horizon, star maps. And unlike a map of the earth, a map of the stars isn't posible to fake successfully, you can easily check the map is correct from looking at the sky at night. If the star maps were faked, some astronomers would of noticed.
Then
Maybe not the southernmost points, but a part of each continent can be dark at the same time. http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?iso=20160620T2134
The southern cross will be south of all three continents.
Well Empirical was quite right, though I was looking for the South Celestial Pole.  It turns out than on the Southern Winter Solstice (Empirical had 20/June/2016) at 10:00 UTC
  • in Fremantle (Australia), the local date and time are 21/June at 06:00 and it's just before dawn
  • in Capetown (South Africa), the local date and time are 21/June at 00:00 and it's just midnight
  • n Ushuaia (Argentina), the local date and time are 20/June at 19:00 and it's just after sunset
So in all these locations it is dark enough to easily see at least the brightest stars.  Using the "On line Planetarium" at https://in-the-sky.org/skymap.php we get the night star maps for these locations shown at the right.

In all 3 cases I have added a white cross to show the location of the South Celestial Pole.  The green circle marker shows the location of Octans, the closest constellation to the South Celestial Pole.  The Southern Cross (Cruz) can readily be seen from Cape Town almost SW and at a slightly elevation than the South Celestial Pole.  From Perth the Southern Cross is almost on the horizon and due south.  From Urshuaia its elevation is too high to show on this chart.

At most times of the year while we could often see the South Celestial Pole from two of these locations, one at least would have too much daylight to see it from all three.

I am fully aware that these are computer generated star charts, but if these are not correct then I am sure we would have found out years ago.  Astronomers have been studying the stars for millenia and I don't really think they could be fooled that easily!

BTW
;D  By the way, a bit of geometry also tells us we can not observe a star from Africa, South America and Australia at the same time. ;D
We are still waiting on this bit of geometry.

Fremantle (Australia), 21/June at 06:00 or 20/June/2016) at 10:00 UTC

South from Fremantle (Australia) at 21060620 22.00 UTC

South from Capetown (South Africa) at 21060620 22.00 UTC

South from Urshuaia (Argentina) at 21060620 22.00 UTC

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Explain circumpolar stars in the southern hemisphere.
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2016, 11:44:25 PM »
Quote from: jroa
But you said the southern most part, which is not at night in your picture.  Perhaps you simply change things around to suite your needs?  ::)
Read the thread.

Any one where a triangle drawn from the southernmost point of Africa, South America and Australia will contain the north pole. A bit of geometry tells you that this would make it impossible for a star to be south of all three points.

::)