Ultimate question to round-earthers

How come we can see the Big Dipper on the 21st of March and the 21st of September?
Are the stars going around the sun also?
Ha!
I thought y'all said the stars don't move.
__
___stars................Earth...................sun....................Earth..........stars-Big Dipper
--------------------21st Sept------------------------------21st March

wtf?

if u don't understand , don't swear

Aren't you going to explain why we shouldn't?

Aren't you going to explain why we shouldn't?

if the stars don't move , how come we see the big dipper on march 21st and on sept. 21st. On these 2 dates your round earth is on opposite side of the sun horizontally and at night you are looking away from the sun, so therefore if you see the same stars then that means that the stars are goingaround the sun also.

The stars which are visible do depend on the time of year. You can check star-maps and similar. (How does the FE model explain that, by the way?)

However, the big dipper, being near the north star, is not directly opposite the sun from the earth, but is rather above it (in your diagram.) But there's no reason you shouldn't be able to see it any time of year.
Night sky from London, England on March 21 at 10 pm
Night sky from London, England on September 21 at 10 pm
(Images for the year 2006. These images are from heavens-above.com, where you can make your own starcharts for any location at any time - feel free to confirm their accuracy yourself with your own observations.)
Note that the stars near the north star are visible in each, but the views are rotated about the north star, so different stars are visible in the spring and in the fall, but the ones near the north star are visible year-round (as is the north star itself.)[/url]

The skies do look different in September than they do in March. :roll:

The closest star to us is several billion light years away from us, so the shift in perspective has almost no effect on how we see the big dipper at all.

at night we look away from the sun-in the round earth theory. so therefore the stars are further than pluto horizontally from the sun. why do we get the same effect 1/2 a year later on the opposite side of the sun.
with flat earth, the earth doesn't move, but the stars, do every night, like the moon and sun.
now if the north star is above the north pole , that means that the north star is horiontally further away from the sun than pluto on sept. 21st and on march 21st the north star is over and past the sun. this would be the 1st time that we can see the sun and the north star at the same time. does this happen in the north pole during its' summer period. do people over there see the sun and north star all summa long.

The stars which are visible do depend on the time of year. You can check star-maps and similar. (How does the FE model explain that, by the way?)

However, the big dipper, being near the north star, is not directly opposite the sun from the earth, but is rather above it (in your diagram.) I'll post a picture in a sec. But there's no reason you shouldn't be able to see it any time of year.

if the RE north star is directly above the north pole all the time then that means that the stars are following the yearly tilt and rotation of the north pole. the RE has a norht pole that tilts away from the sun on sept 21 and towards ths sun on march 21st

Does this happen in the north pole during its' summer period. do people over there see the sun and north star all summa long.

Yes exactlly.  If you are in the northern hemisphere, the north star never sets.  No matter what time of year, and not even durring the day.  Never.

And the big dipper is very close to the north star, so for most people in the northern hemisphere (above about 20 degrees north latitude), it does not set.

And yes, the north pole does experience several months of constant sunlight durring the northern summer, and several months of darkness durring the northern winter.


[EDIT]

Just in case some incredibly picky FE'er feels like pointing this out. I know that technicaly, yes, the north star will eventually set as the celestial north pole changes position on it's 26,000 long year cycle.  But polaris will still aproximate the Celestial North pole for at least another few thousand years.

Okay, here is a rough diagram meant to show what's going on:

Note: this image is not at all to scale, but gets the point across: stars in different directions are visible from different times of year. About the north star: yes, it is visible year-round at night in the northern hemisphere, and at the north pole it's always directly overhead. No, this does not mean it's visible year-round, because during the summer, it's always daytime at the north pole.

Raa, do you object to this being a perfectly valid RE explanation for this phenomena? If so, what problems do you have with it?

if u can see the north star from the north pole in the winter, what does that mean

A more acurate version of your crude drawing would actually look like this:


----------------------------------stars-Big Dipper

_

l
(This distance is much, much larger)
l
_




___stars................Earth...................sun....................Earth..........
--------------------21st Sept------------------------------21st March

if u can see the north star from the north pole in the winter, what does that mean

Why should it mean anything? You can see the north star from the north pole in winter. It is directly overhead.

A more acurate version of your crude drawing would actually look like this:
stars
(This distance is much, much larger)
Earth

Yes, I understood that, hence the "note: this image is not at all to scale" I put in, but I think it gives a good visual clue as to what is going on.

Okay, here is a rough diagram meant to show what's going on:

Note: this image is not at all to scale, but gets the point across: stars in different directions are visible from different times of year. About the north star: yes, it is visible year-round at night in the northern hemisphere, and at the north pole it's always directly overhead. No, this does not mean it's visible year-round, because during the summer, it's always daytime at the north pole.

Raa, do you object to this being a perfectly valid RE explanation for this phenomena? If so, what problems do you have with it?

so the north star is always directly over the north pole all year round...this proves MY point. ...since the north pole points in different directions with the change of seasons (especially winter and summer) and the north star is still over head, then they both moved together, and that means that the stars moved.

The Celestial North pole does not point in different directions with the change of seasons.  The Earths axes is, for all intents and puposes, fixed pointing in one direction (at Polaris.)

BTW Skeptical scientist, I was refering to Raa's diagram, not yours.

A more acurate version of your crude drawing would actually look like this:


----------------------------------stars-Big Dipper

_

l
(This distance is much, much larger)
l
_




___stars................Earth...................sun....................Earth..........
--------------------21st Sept------------------------------21st March

i understand but the north star is directly over the north pole, and the north pole points in a different direction during summer than in winter

the north pole points in a different direction during summer than in winter

It doesn't

The NCP is fixed pointing in one direction.  That is why Polaris does not move durring the year.  Winter, Summer, Day or Night, it is always in the same place in the sky.

Quote from: "Raa"

the north pole points in a different direction during summer than in winter

It doesn't

The NCP is fixed pointing in one direction.  That is why Polaris does not move durring the year.  Winter, Summer, Day or Night, it is always in the same place in the sky.

in winter the north pole points away from the sun , that's why there's no light there, in summer it points more towards the sun

______________north star______________


----north pole----------sun----------north pole
_______\___________()___________\_____
........winter................................summer......

this is the picture, but where's the symmetry. if the earth goes half way around the sun (1/2 way around a circle) then there should be symmetry. in this case there is no symmetry because the north star is not moving.

Exactly!  The NCP always points in the same direction, and the Earth (Tilted slightly from the plane of it's orbit) simply moves around the sun.

So what is it that you are questioning?

if the earth tilts on a yearly basis shouldn't it be closer to the sun during its' northern summer months? or further during its' northern winter months? all this because the north star is not moving

if the earth tilts on a yearly basis shouldn't it be closer to the sun during its' northern summer months? or further during its' northern winter months? all this because the north star is not moving

No. Not at all.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/North_season.jpg

Actually, the Earth orbit is slightly elliptical which results in it being closer to the sun durring the northern winter months.  But the effects of this are insignificant.  We can approximate the Earths orbit as being a circle.

in winter the north pole points away from the sun , that's why there's no light there, in summer it points more towards the sun

______________north star______________


----north pole----------sun----------north pole
_______\___________()___________\_____
........winter................................summer......

You're right that in the summer the north pole is towards the sun and in winter it's not, but the relative locations have changed. The direction in which the north pole points is fixed.

Raa.  Go outside.  Pick a spot on the ground and label it "S".  Now walk around S in a circle.  Look up at the sun the whole time.  Notice how the sun is always in the same position in the sky?  It's not directly overhead, but you always look in the same direction to see it anyway.

The Earth's orientation with respect to the North Star is the same thing.  If you were Earth, standing on the solar ecliptic (the plane containing the Earth, the Sun, and the other planets), and walking around the Sun in circles, the North Star would always be in the same part of the "sky"... 23 degrees away from straight up, or whatever it is.

When things are very far away, they don't appear to move when you do.  This is true for distant mountains, the moon, the sun, and the North Star.

Anyway this question doesn't feel very "ultimate" to me.

here, for a final explanation, go to http://www.shatters.net/celestia/ this should solve your star problem... download, study, enjoy, reprogram your brain to be normal...

if the north pole is pointing at the north star at 13 degrees on sept 21st and if the north pole is pointing at the north star at 28.5 degrees on march 21st [ taking into consideration that the north star is not moving] then where is the symmetry; physical or mathematical.
on the flat earth system the sun is symmetrically south of the position it had on the 21st of september, because it is half way across the 365 day year. with the RE system , you position the earth half way around the sun , but you don't give me it's exact position (degree of the north pole and distance from the sun...they should be symmetrically related in some way or other even though the north pole doesn't move, simply because you said it, now prove it!)....because it doesn't correspond with the position you give it presently in astonomical calculations. I am asking you a question which has never been asked before to astrologists yet which cannot be answered by astrologists, therefore your theory is incomplete. Mine is complete because the sun has a position from which it returns at exactly every 182.5 days, those 2 days being march 21st and sept 21st, every year, for ever futuristically and this has been also happening infinetly for ever in the past tense. understand clearly now, i am not saying anything about positions of the sun, i am only talking about movements of the sun, and my propositions are much more powerfull than your propositions that the earth is revolving, yet it is impossible to give me exact positions  BECAUSE IT IS MOVING ALL THE TIME --- your contradiction

if the north pole is pointing at the north star at 13 degrees on sept 21st and if the north pole is pointing at the north star at 28.5 degrees on march 21st [ taking into consideration that the north star is not moving] then where is the symmetry; physical or mathematical.

What are you talking about? The earth has a constant axial tilt of 23.5 degrees.

I am asking you a question which has never been asked before to astrologists yet which cannot be answered by astrologists, therefore your theory is incomplete....

Most astrologists would indeed have trouble answering this... but by looking at these same stars they could tell you your future, for a small fee.