NASA owes us an apology for Werner Von Braun

I am double posting this from the tfes.org site. I am leading a campaign to demand a public apology from NASA for harboring the Nazi War Criminal Werner Von Braun. During the war he was a colonel in the SS and directly oversaw the slave labor camps which built the V2 ballistic rockets. Von braun was also a personal acquaintance of Hitler.

After the war Von Braun was brought to the US he was made director of the Marshall Space Flight Center and served as the chief architect of the Saturn V launch vehicle. His history was whitewashed and it is claimed he either that he knew nothing of the atrocities committed at Dora and Peenemünde or that he was powerless to stop it. He is portrayed in his NASA biography as a jolly scientist who resented the Nazis, was apolitical, and was only pursuing his life-long interest in rocketry.

This is, in fact, false.

A survivor's account from Wernher von Braun, the SS, and Concentration Camp Labor: Questions of Moral, Political, and Criminal Responsibility:
 

Like the good Nazi he was, he immediately started shouting that it was
sabotage, when just at that point VON BRAUN arrived accompanied by
his usual group of people. Without even listening to my explanations, he
ordered the Meister to have me given 25 strokes in his presence by an SS
[man] who was there. Then judging the strokes weren't sufficiently hard,
he ordered that I be flogged more vigorously, and this order was then
diligently carried out, which caused much hilarity in the group, and
following this flogging, VON BRAUN made me translate that I deserved
much more, that in fact I deserved to be hanged, which certainly would be
the fate of the "Mensch" (good-for nothing) I was.

A quote from an article called  The Rocket Man’s Dark Side, published by TIME:

Indeed, some 20,000 died at Dora, from illness, beatings, hangings and intolerable working conditions. Workers, scantily clad, were forced to stand at attention in the biting cold during roll calls that went on for hours. Average survival time in the unventilated paint shop was one month. One prisoner told of being bitten on his legs by guard dogs. Presumably to test the effectiveness of a new medication, one of his legs was treated, the other allowed to fester and deteriorate.

For reasons best known to von Braun, who held the rank of colonel in the dreaded Nazi SS, the prisoners were ordered to turn their backs whenever he came into view. Those caught stealing glances at him were hung. One survivor recalled that von Braun, after inspecting a rocket component, charged, "That is clear sabotage." His unquestioned judgment resulted in eleven men being hanged on the spot. Says Gehrels, "von Braun was directly involved in hangings."

Hangings were commonplace, and Dora inmates remember von Braun arriving in the morning with an unidentified woman, having to step between bodies of dead prisoners and under others still hanging from a crane. These were not ordinary hangings, Gehrels says, "not hanging that breaks the neck of the prisoner, but they were slowly choked to death with a kind of baling wire around their neck."

The above pieces are well researched and paint a bleak picture of Von Braun. Why couldn't NASA have taken the high road and focused on its own rocket scientists? Werner Von Braun should have been put in prison and sentenced to death as a war criminal, not made a director of NASA.

Why would the US government have gone to all the trouble, and potential embarrassment, of harbouring a nazi rocket scientist, if space travel was impossible?

Good campaign,  it will be interesting to see what NASA's official line will be,   Wernher Von Braun has been portrayed very sympathetically over the years,  and his murky past overlooked in the rush to beat the Russians. 
No doubt along with lots of other less well known German Scientists who's pasts were glossed over in the space race.

I have no doubt that the truth got twisted and lost depending on the political imperatives of the time.   The space race has been run and the cold war is long over,  time we knew the truth.

http://epizodsspace.no-ip.org/bibl/inostr-yazyki/german-studies/2002/neufeld_25.pdf

I think you are misspelling his name.   I see it spelt Wernher more often.

Von Braun was probably no more than a Walt Disney mouthpiece aiding in promoting the fantasy of space travel,along with other like-minded bullshit artists of the sci-fi world.

Von Braun was probably no more than a Walt Disney mouthpiece aiding in promoting the fantasy of space travel,along with other like-minded bullshit artists of the sci-fi world.

Why would they choose a nazi to be a mouthpiece? Surely an all-American hero would have been better?

At this point the only conclusion to draw is that NASA are both amazing and awful with their conspiracy. They leave in flaws in the videos that unqualified idiots that do nothing but obsess over lizardmen can spot, hire Nazis apparently expecting them to be popular figures, kill their own astronauts, make mistakes that damage their reputation, and yet manage a complete information blackout on any actually verifiable information that could ruin them.

A good general rule for a conspiracy: if you want people to see you as a benevolent group, don't hire Nazis.

It's almost as if they're not a conspiracy group...

At the very best you could say that  Wernher Von Braun,  was a space obsessed German aristocrat, who would sell himself to whoever would feed his obsession with rockets.   It could just have easily been the Russians,  but the Americans got to him first.   There was a mad scramble for German technology at the end of the war,  even things like giant presses that could stamp out super strong light weight aircraft parts were unknown to the Allies.

The head of the Russian Space program in the early days of the moon race was Sergei Pavlovich Korolev,   his identity  was a state secret,  but he basically masteminded the Russian rocket program from Sputnik to ICBM,  Vostok and so on.   He died in 1966,  just as the Russian N1 ( The failed Russian alternative to Von Braun's Saturn V )  program was in full swing.  Also the Russians were first on the scene at places like Peenemunde.  Who knows what German technology they took.

Time we found out the real truth about Von Braun and the other German Scientists. 

Quote from: sceptimatic on June 06, 2015, 06:09:22 AM

Von Braun was probably no more than a Walt Disney mouthpiece aiding in promoting the fantasy of space travel,along with other like-minded bullshit artists of the sci-fi world.

Why would they choose a nazi to be a mouthpiece? Surely an all-American hero would have been better?

Why does any nationality get chosen for any specific project?  Maybe he was Germany's version of Walt Disney or Arthur C Clarke, etc.

Let's face it; Von Braun had one hell of an accent and it wasn't nazi.

Why would the US government have gone to all the trouble, and potential embarrassment, of harbouring a nazi rocket scientist, if space travel was impossible?

As I see it, they still needed to build real working rockets that could go into the air until out of sight for the spectators and video cameras. The Nazi V2 was one such rocket that could do that.

The US did not have any large ballistic missiles whatsoever before Von Braun came on board. The purpose of harboring the war criminal Von Braun was so they can steal the Nazi  rocket technology, to make weapons for military and rockets for NASA.

It is also likely that they did not know space travel was impossible when they brought Von Braun on board to make it happen. Irregardless of the possibility of space travel and FET, we are all owed a public apology from NASA for harboring refuge to this terrible man.

Good campaign,  it will be interesting to see what NASA's official line will be,   Wernher Von Braun has been portrayed very sympathetically over the years,  and his murky past overlooked in the rush to beat the Russians. 
No doubt along with lots of other less well known German Scientists who's pasts were glossed over in the space race.

I have no doubt that the truth got twisted and lost depending on the political imperatives of the time.   The space race has been run and the cold war is long over,  time we knew the truth.

http://epizodsspace.no-ip.org/bibl/inostr-yazyki/german-studies/2002/neufeld_25.pdf

I think you are misspelling his name.   I see it spelt Wernher more often.

Thank you for the correction. I agree. Von Braun's past is inexcusable.

What I found interesting is that the professional integrity of these Nazi rocket scientists went rotten long before they were brought to the US for the space program.

Start watching at 29:36: #" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">What Happened on the Moon full documentary 2 of 2

Von Braun and his team tricked Hitler into funding the V2 program with hoaxed footage of a working rocket.

Can I just ask then if you think the v2 was a fully functioning rocket?

Quote from: Weatherwax on June 06, 2015, 06:31:32 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on June 06, 2015, 06:09:22 AM

Von Braun was probably no more than a Walt Disney mouthpiece aiding in promoting the fantasy of space travel,along with other like-minded bullshit artists of the sci-fi world.

Why would they choose a nazi to be a mouthpiece? Surely an all-American hero would have been better?

Why does any nationality get chosen for any specific project?  Maybe he was Germany's version of Walt Disney or Arthur C Clarke, etc.

Let's face it; Von Braun had one hell of an accent and it wasn't nazi.

They wouldn't have chosen a German, Nazi or not, to be the mouthpiece of America's space program, immediately after the US had been at war with Germany, without a really good reason to do so. Like, for example, he knew how to build ballistic rockets.

Can I just ask then if you think the v2 was a fully functioning rocket?

I think it eventually became a functioning rocket. But I wouldn't be surprised if Von Braun overplayed its capabilities in his proposal to Hitler.

Quote from: Pythagoras on June 06, 2015, 09:04:04 AM

Can I just ask then if you think the v2 was a fully functioning rocket?

I think it eventually became a functioning rocket. But I wouldn't be surprised if Von Braun overplayed its capabilities in his proposal to Hitler.

The people of London during the war testified to its capabilities.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on June 06, 2015, 09:23:39 AM

Quote from: Pythagoras on June 06, 2015, 09:04:04 AM

Can I just ask then if you think the v2 was a fully functioning rocket?

I think it eventually became a functioning rocket. But I wouldn't be surprised if Von Braun overplayed its capabilities in his proposal to Hitler.

The people of London during the war testified to its capabilities.

The range of the V2 ended up being only about 200 miles, which is what I think is accurate for a ballistic missile on a Flat Earth, but insignificant compared to what the US Government is claiming their ballistic and intercontinental missiles can do today under the explanation that they take advantage of earth orbit.

Von Braun would have proposed capabilities of the V2 assuming the earth is round, and would have gave different numbers to Hitler.

Just to clarify I don't know much about alleged atrocities committed by him but if that were the case then I can't tie up why the us would use such a person to perpetrate a hoax that could have essentially  used any one to be a scientific figurehead.

Secondly the allied powers desperately scrabbled to capture as many of the scientist as they could. Why would they if it was all a hoax.

Just to clarify I don't know much about alleged atrocities committed by him but if that were the case then I can't tie up why the us would use such a person to perpetrate a hoax that could have essentially  used any one to be a scientific figurehead.

Secondly the allied powers desperately scrabbled to capture as many of the scientist as they could. Why would they if it was all a hoax.

They still needed real working rockets for NASA, even if it was a hoax.

You are also ignoring the possibility that the US space program initially started as a genuine effort with Von Braun. The US and USSR butted heads in competition for many years, with many failures, and many disasters, in attempt to get a payload into earth orbit and pave the way for ICBMs. Don't you think it's a coincidence that within three months of the USSR claiming to have launched Sputnik into orbit, the US claimed to put a satellite into orbit as well?

Don't you think it's a coincidence that within three months of the USSR claiming to have launched Sputnik into orbit, the US claimed to put a satellite into orbit as well?

Considering that the US had already been working on its own satellite launch program for several years, no, I don't think that its a coincidence at all.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on June 06, 2015, 09:43:20 AM

Don't you think it's a coincidence that within three months of the USSR claiming to have launched Sputnik into orbit, the US claimed to put a satellite into orbit as well?

Considering that the US had already been working on its own satellite launch program for several years, no, I don't think that its a coincidence at all.

The US and USSR were trying to develop rocket technology that could get into orbit pretty much immediately after WWII when Hitler's rocket scientists were separated between the two countries. The competition was raging from 1945 to 1957. It is absolutely a coincidence that the US just happened to reach success within three months of Sputnick.

A coincidence is hardly evidence though is it. What happens I'd imagen is that the Americans just rushed as fast as they could after the Russian launch to try and catch up. And they got lucky and didn't fail. Now compare my answer to yours stating the whole space industry is a conspiracy. Which one is more likely?

A coincidence is hardly evidence though is it. What happens I'd imagen is that the Americans just rushed as fast as they could after the Russian launch to try and catch up. And they got lucky and didn't fail. Now compare my answer to yours stating the whole space industry is a conspiracy. Which one is more likely?

Consider that during that same time period the US Government was conspiring to conduct a secret war in which the public and Congress were systematically lied to about the scale of the Vietnam war and reckless disregard for civilian casualties for over 20 years between 1945 to 1967. The Secret War was administrated by the Eisenhower, Kennedy and Johnson administration, the same people who were in charge around the time when NASA started making all of its fantastic claims.

From the wiki link --

President Johnson had decided to expand the war while promising "we seek no wider war" during his 1964 presidential campaign,[8] including plans to bomb North Vietnam well before the 1964 Election. President Johnson had been outspoken against doing so during the election and claimed that his opponent Barry Goldwater was the one that wanted to bomb North Vietnam.

Quote from: markjo on June 06, 2015, 01:52:52 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on June 06, 2015, 09:43:20 AM

Don't you think it's a coincidence that within three months of the USSR claiming to have launched Sputnik into orbit, the US claimed to put a satellite into orbit as well?

Considering that the US had already been working on its own satellite launch program for several years, no, I don't think that its a coincidence at all.

The US and USSR were trying to develop rocket technology that could get into orbit pretty much immediately after WWII when Hitler's rocket scientists were separated between the two countries. The competition was raging from 1945 to 1957. It is absolutely a coincidence that the US just happened to reach success within three months of Sputnick.

It would only be a coincidence if neither side was aware of the other's program.  This was certainly not the case.  The US had been working on project Vanguard and had several unsuccessful launches before Sputnik.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on June 06, 2015, 03:50:47 PM

Quote from: markjo on June 06, 2015, 01:52:52 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on June 06, 2015, 09:43:20 AM

Don't you think it's a coincidence that within three months of the USSR claiming to have launched Sputnik into orbit, the US claimed to put a satellite into orbit as well?

Considering that the US had already been working on its own satellite launch program for several years, no, I don't think that its a coincidence at all.

The US and USSR were trying to develop rocket technology that could get into orbit pretty much immediately after WWII when Hitler's rocket scientists were separated between the two countries. The competition was raging from 1945 to 1957. It is absolutely a coincidence that the US just happened to reach success within three months of Sputnick.

It would only be a coincidence if neither side was aware of the other's program.  This was certainly not the case.  The US had been working on project Vanguard and had several unsuccessful launches before Sputnik.

Right, up until Sputnik the US didn't have the technology. Then immediately after Sputnik, that technology they had been trying to invent for 17 years was instantly invented.

Right, up until Sputnik the US didn't have the technology. Then immediately after Sputnik, that technology they had been trying to invent for 17 years was instantly invented.

  What are you talking about?  They had been working on the technology for years and they finally got it to work just after Sputnik.  They don't call it rocket science because it's easy.

At most the sputnik launch forced nasa to bring foward plans for a launch nothing more. And as markjo says, they had been working for years on rocket tech. You assertion that it was instantly invented is just a baseless lie backed up by nothing but your own desperation to support your theory.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on June 06, 2015, 05:03:11 PM

Right, up until Sputnik the US didn't have the technology. Then immediately after Sputnik, that technology they had been trying to invent for 17 years was instantly invented.

  What are you talking about?  They had been working on the technology for years and they finally got it to work just after Sputnik.  They don't call it rocket science because it's easy.

But according to you rocket science is so easy, and insurmountable technical challenges can be overcome, apparently, that the managers at NASA just had to say "work harder!" and 17 years of constant failures by top scientists to create a working orbital rocket turned into an overnight success. If technologies can simply be invented like that, why didn't they just say that before?

Quote from: markjo on June 06, 2015, 05:35:35 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on June 06, 2015, 05:03:11 PM

Right, up until Sputnik the US didn't have the technology. Then immediately after Sputnik, that technology they had been trying to invent for 17 years was instantly invented.

  What are you talking about?  They had been working on the technology for years and they finally got it to work just after Sputnik.  They don't call it rocket science because it's easy.

But according to you rocket science is so easy, and insurmountable technical challenges can be overcome, apparently, that the managers at NASA just had to say "work harder!" and 17 years of constant failures by top scientists to create a working orbital rocket turned into an overnight success. If technologies can simply be invented like that, why didn't they just say that before?

You call 17 years of hard work an overnight success?

Quote from: Tom Bishop on June 06, 2015, 06:11:26 PM

Quote from: markjo on June 06, 2015, 05:35:35 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on June 06, 2015, 05:03:11 PM

Right, up until Sputnik the US didn't have the technology. Then immediately after Sputnik, that technology they had been trying to invent for 17 years was instantly invented.

  What are you talking about?  They had been working on the technology for years and they finally got it to work just after Sputnik.  They don't call it rocket science because it's easy.

But according to you rocket science is so easy, and insurmountable technical challenges can be overcome, apparently, that the managers at NASA just had to say "work harder!" and 17 years of constant failures by top scientists to create a working orbital rocket turned into an overnight success. If technologies can simply be invented like that, why didn't they just say that before?

You call 17 years of hard work an overnight success?

NASA had a lot of rocket failures, a lot. There is a huge list of them leading up to Explorer 1. And yet here you are expecting us to trust the word of a SS Nazi thug who committed war crimes and serial murder in cold blood, and who lied to his boss Hitler about his technology, that he was able to get NASA into orbit and to the moon.

I mean, there simply is no credibility claiming that.

Quote from: BJ1234 on June 06, 2015, 06:16:35 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on June 06, 2015, 06:11:26 PM

Quote from: markjo on June 06, 2015, 05:35:35 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on June 06, 2015, 05:03:11 PM

Right, up until Sputnik the US didn't have the technology. Then immediately after Sputnik, that technology they had been trying to invent for 17 years was instantly invented.

  What are you talking about?  They had been working on the technology for years and they finally got it to work just after Sputnik.  They don't call it rocket science because it's easy.

But according to you rocket science is so easy, and insurmountable technical challenges can be overcome, apparently, that the managers at NASA just had to say "work harder!" and 17 years of constant failures by top scientists to create a working orbital rocket turned into an overnight success. If technologies can simply be invented like that, why didn't they just say that before?

You call 17 years of hard work an overnight success?

NASA had a lot of rocket failures, a lot. There is a huge list of them leading up to Explorer 1. And yet here you are expecting us to trust the word of a SS Nazi thug who committed war crimes and serial murder in cold blood, and who lied to his boss Hitler about his technology, that he was able to get NASA into orbit and to the moon.

I mean, there simply is no credibility claiming that.

So you are saying that people can't learn from there mistakes.  And that apparently, getting something to work after 17 years of work is an overnight success.  There is no logic in your statements.

But according to you rocket science is so easy, and insurmountable technical challenges can be overcome...

When did I ever say that rocket science is easy?  If anything, I like to remind people that there is a reason that the term "rocket science" is used to describe something difficult.

...apparently, that the managers at NASA just had to say "work harder!" and 17 years of constant failures by top scientists to create a working orbital rocket turned into an overnight success.

First of all, Explorer 1 was launched before NASA was formed.  Secondly, who said that there were 17 years of constant failures?  Thirdly, Von Braun wasn't working on the Vanguard project that failed before Sputnik.  He was working on the project that successfully launched Explorer 1.

If technologies can simply be invented like that, why didn't they just say that before?

Again, what are you talking about?  They have developing the technology for 17 years.  Both sides were on the verge of getting it to work and the Soviets just beat the US by a few months.

In von Braun's case, yes, he was a horrible person (apparently, to be honest I didn't know much about him before this) but if he was punished, what good would that have done? Allowing him to work on the space project was a major factor in making it work.