Poll

Were the Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings necessary?

Yes, they were necessary to get Imperial Japan to surrender and end World War II
No, they were not necessary to Imperial Japan's surrender

Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings

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Rama Set

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #90 on: May 21, 2015, 05:38:43 PM »
Blah, blah, blah.

If there was another solution (there was), then the dropping of atomic bombs was not necessary. Seems fairly straightforward. If Japan had not come to the table to discuss surrender I could see your point, but the fact is, Japan did wish to discuss surrender.

I don't see how you can argue against this.

The problem with Japan's attempt at peace is that their definition of "conditional surrender" would have probably left in power the same people who had started the war in the first place.

All I can say to that is maybe. Since the Allies never came to the table, it is tough to say how negotiations would have gone. The Japanese really only had their conviction at the end. Their Air Force and navy were decimated, their industrial capability and economy were devastated. They had no negotiating power. I think the allies could have wrung what they wanted from the Japanese.
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triune truther

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #91 on: May 21, 2015, 06:31:06 PM »
No one can really argue for the bombings as they happened. Two attacks on primarily civilian targets, and not factories or something else is completely inexcusable.
All war is deception.

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triune truther

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #92 on: May 21, 2015, 06:32:31 PM »
They were both fire bombed and burned to the ground. Atomic bombs are not real.

If nukes are not real how did you get irradiated enough to grow six legs?
All war is deception.

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kman

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #93 on: May 21, 2015, 06:51:16 PM »
The Japanese really only had their conviction at the end.

That was enough. The entire culture of Japan revolved around honor and other stuff like that, and the populace was totally indoctrinated. The japanese people believed till the end that American invaders would torturer them and massacre them. Don't forget that the Japanese government let the second bomb fall before they surrendered.
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Rama Set

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #94 on: May 21, 2015, 07:18:34 PM »
The Japanese really only had their conviction at the end.

That was enough. The entire culture of Japan revolved around honor and other stuff like that, and the populace was totally indoctrinated. The japanese people believed till the end that American invaders would torturer them and massacre them. Don't forget that the Japanese government let the second bomb fall before they surrendered.

Why do you think they waited?  There are more plausible reasons than, "They are zealots".  If you read the history, they waited because they gambled that the Americans would not drop another.  When they were proven wrong, they capitulated, showing they were rational actors.

The Americans did massacre them by the way.  Their fears were well founded.  And no, I am not advocating for the victimhood of the japanese or try to demonize the Americans.  It is just a fact that 100,000 people in Tokyo died in a single night's bombing raid by the Americans.  You would be terrified of them too I imagine.
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The Ellimist

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #95 on: May 21, 2015, 07:27:05 PM »
The Japanese really only had their conviction at the end.

That was enough. The entire culture of Japan revolved around honor and other stuff like that, and the populace was totally indoctrinated. The japanese people believed till the end that American invaders would torturer them and massacre them. Don't forget that the Japanese government let the second bomb fall before they surrendered.
If you read the history, they waited because they gambled that the Americans would not drop another.  When they were proven wrong, they capitulated, showing they were rational actors.

So, the fact that they would not have surrendered if America had dropped one atom bomb instead of two, somehow shows they were not zealous?
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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #96 on: May 21, 2015, 07:29:25 PM »
Well, after Manchuria & China proper, I'd say they had it coming.

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Rama Set

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #97 on: May 21, 2015, 10:14:04 PM »
The Japanese really only had their conviction at the end.

That was enough. The entire culture of Japan revolved around honor and other stuff like that, and the populace was totally indoctrinated. The japanese people believed till the end that American invaders would torturer them and massacre them. Don't forget that the Japanese government let the second bomb fall before they surrendered.
If you read the history, they waited because they gambled that the Americans would not drop another.  When they were proven wrong, they capitulated, showing they were rational actors.

So, the fact that they would not have surrendered if America had dropped one atom bomb instead of two, somehow shows they were not zealous?

No, that is not what I am saying at all.  kman mentioned that they did not surrender after the Hiroshima as some sort of evidence that they were zealous, and I am saying that it does not show that.

Well, after Manchuria & China proper, I'd say they had it coming.

Yes, we all know what you would say.  It is not very interesting anymore.
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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #98 on: May 22, 2015, 01:44:37 AM »
Well, you can't seem to pose an argument that successfully defeats it, so...

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Rama Set

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #99 on: May 22, 2015, 06:46:17 AM »
Well, you can't seem to pose an argument that successfully defeats it, so...

Once you explain why "they had it coming" means "it had to happen" I will defeat that argument.  I imagine the best you can come up with is some chest-thumping rhetoric about might makes right.  I sincerely hope you surprise me.
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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #100 on: May 22, 2015, 07:15:31 AM »
You appear not to have a point. They could have surrendered w/ neither bomb. Thex didn't. They could have after 1. They didn't. Ergo, both were needed.

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Rama Set

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #101 on: May 22, 2015, 11:30:24 AM »
You appear not to have a point. They could have surrendered w/ neither bomb. Thex didn't. They could have after 1. They didn't. Ergo, both were needed.

They did try and surrender and the allies said no. Why do you keep ignoring that fact. I thought you were a historian.
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Vauxhall

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #102 on: May 22, 2015, 11:34:00 AM »
Rama:
"The Japanese attempted surrender. here's a source"

Yaakov:
"No. That's incorrect. I learned in college that that's not true. I have taught college courses before."

Art:
"The Japanese suggested Article 9 in the constitution, not the Americans. Here's a source"


Yaakov:
"No. That's incorrect. I learned in college that that's not true. I have taught college courses before."


Why? His level of skepticism toward official sources makes it hard to believe that Yaakov did well in college, or even went to begin with.
Read the FAQS.

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Rama Set

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #103 on: May 22, 2015, 12:25:05 PM »
Are you insinuating he should set aside his personal belief in favor of evidence?  I am outraged!
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Vauxhall

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #104 on: May 22, 2015, 12:26:38 PM »
Are you insinuating he should set aside his personal belief in favor of evidence?  I am outraged!

I am insinuating that Yaakov is guilty of a double standard and mental retardation.

He accepts some historical sources, but completely disregards others to suit his argument. Personally, I think all historical sources cannot be trusted, but that's just me.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 12:31:51 PM by Vauxhall »
Read the FAQS.

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #105 on: May 22, 2015, 07:14:40 PM »
You appear not to have a point. They could have surrendered w/ neither bomb. Thex didn't. They could have after 1. They didn't. Ergo, both were needed.

They did try and surrender and the allies said no. Why do you keep ignoring that fact. I thought you were a historian.

They tried to surrender conditionally. Not good enough.

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #106 on: May 22, 2015, 07:17:17 PM »
I've already presented my response. The fact remains that with a Wikipedia source, which no scholar permits using, you have to back it first. And I would question that source for Political Correctness first.

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The Ellimist

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #107 on: May 22, 2015, 07:18:22 PM »
You appear not to have a point. They could have surrendered w/ neither bomb. Thex didn't. They could have after 1. They didn't. Ergo, both were needed.

They did try and surrender and the allies said no.
If they wanted to surrender why didn't they just accept unconditional surrender?

The terms of unconditional surrender, specified in the Potsdam declaration were were:

1. the elimination "for all time [of] the authority and influence of those who have deceived and misled the people of Japan into embarking on world conquest" (removal of the militarist radicals basically; no mention of the Emperor.)
2. the occupation of "points in Japanese territory to be designated by the Allies"
3. that the "Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshū, Hokkaidō, Kyūshū, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine." As had been announced in the Cairo Declaration in 1943, Japan was to be reduced to her pre-1894 territory and stripped of her pre-war empire including Korea and Taiwan, as well as all her recent conquests.
4. that "[t]he Japanese military forces, after being completely disarmed, shall be permitted to return to their homes with the opportunity to lead peaceful and productive lives.
5. that "[w]e do not intend that the Japanese shall be enslaved as a race or destroyed as a nation, but stern justice shall be meted out to all war criminals, including those who have visited cruelties upon our prisoners."

And then there's' this:
1. "The Japanese Government shall remove all obstacles to the revival and strengthening of democratic tendencies among the Japanese people. Freedom of speech, of religion, and of thought, as well as respect for the fundamental human rights shall be established."
2. "Japan shall be permitted to maintain such industries as will sustain her economy and permit the exaction of just reparations in kind, but not those which would enable her to rearm for war. To this end, access to, as distinguished from control of, raw materials shall be permitted. Eventual Japanese participation in world trade relations shall be permitted."
3. "The occupying forces of the Allies shall be withdrawn from Japan as soon as these objectives have been accomplished and there has been established, in accordance with the freely expressed will of the Japanese people, a peacefully inclined and responsible government."

So they called on Japan's government to restore civil liberties to the people, guaranteed that Japan would keep non-military industries, and agreed to leave as soon as Japan was stable. While this declaration didn't come up during the Soviet-Japanese talks, the Japanese could have at least accepted these terms, or tried to discuss them. Instead, the Japanese government rejected it.

To me it seems that they knew they were going to lose, and  saw "negotiations" as a way to get more than they were entitled to. It didn't go their way, so they decide to throw a tantrum, as well as their peoples lives away.
Additionally, we cannot entirely rule out the nefarious effects of demons, spirits, gnomes, and wizards on our society's ability to comprehend our flat earth as it really is. 

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Rama Set

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #108 on: May 22, 2015, 08:48:22 PM »
Or perhaps they were scared that they would be totally subjugated as the terms of that surrender seem to allow for?

I don't know why wanting to negotiate a peace seems so controversial.
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The Ellimist

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #109 on: May 23, 2015, 07:34:28 AM »
Or perhaps they were scared that they would be totally subjugated as the terms of that surrender seem to allow for?

 ??? ??? ??? ???

[w]e do not intend that the Japanese shall be enslaved as a race or destroyed as a nation

The occupying forces of the Allies shall be withdrawn from Japan as soon as these objectives have been accomplished and there has been established, in accordance with the freely expressed will of the Japanese people, a peacefully inclined and responsible government."
Additionally, we cannot entirely rule out the nefarious effects of demons, spirits, gnomes, and wizards on our society's ability to comprehend our flat earth as it really is. 

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Rama Set

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #110 on: May 23, 2015, 10:50:48 AM »
Or perhaps they were scared that they would be totally subjugated as the terms of that surrender seem to allow for?

 ??? ??? ??? ???

[w]e do not intend that the Japanese shall be enslaved as a race or destroyed as a nation

The occupying forces of the Allies shall be withdrawn from Japan as soon as these objectives have been accomplished and there has been established, in accordance with the freely expressed will of the Japanese people, a peacefully inclined and responsible government."

So someone bombs you in to submission, killing millions along the way and then tells you they have your best interests at heart, and you believe them? Tell me that that does not sound like a hard pill to swallow.
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The Ellimist

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #111 on: May 23, 2015, 12:35:41 PM »
Or perhaps they were scared that they would be totally subjugated as the terms of that surrender seem to allow for?

 ??? ??? ??? ???

[w]e do not intend that the Japanese shall be enslaved as a race or destroyed as a nation

The occupying forces of the Allies shall be withdrawn from Japan as soon as these objectives have been accomplished and there has been established, in accordance with the freely expressed will of the Japanese people, a peacefully inclined and responsible government."

So someone bombs you in to submission, killing millions along the way and then tells you they have your best interests at heart, and you believe them? Tell me that that does not sound like a hard pill to swallow.

Doesn't matter if it was a bold-faced lie (and it wasn't) or not. They had 2 options: accept the Declaration, lose the war, be enslaved, and spare Japanese lives, or reject the Declaration, lose the war, be enslaved, and kill more soldiers and citizens. They choose the former.
Additionally, we cannot entirely rule out the nefarious effects of demons, spirits, gnomes, and wizards on our society's ability to comprehend our flat earth as it really is. 

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Rama Set

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #112 on: May 23, 2015, 03:09:12 PM »
You asked why they did not accept unconditional surrender, I gave a plausible answer.
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The Ellimist

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #113 on: May 23, 2015, 05:53:59 PM »
You asked why they did not accept unconditional surrender, I gave a plausible answer.

So you're saying that they rejected unconditional surrender because they were scared of being subjugated by the Allies, but the Japanese government knew they were going to lose, so shouldn't they have known that either way Japan would be conquered? Why then would they choose the option that would drain more resources and get more soldiers killed? It doesn't seem like the option a fearful government would choose.
Additionally, we cannot entirely rule out the nefarious effects of demons, spirits, gnomes, and wizards on our society's ability to comprehend our flat earth as it really is. 

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Rama Set

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #114 on: May 24, 2015, 12:00:48 AM »
You asked why they did not accept unconditional surrender, I gave a plausible answer.

So you're saying that they rejected unconditional surrender because they were scared of being subjugated by the Allies, but the Japanese government knew they were going to lose, so shouldn't they have known that either way Japan would be conquered? Why then would they choose the option that would drain more resources and get more soldiers killed? It doesn't seem like the option a fearful government would choose.
Firstly plenty of animals fight when cornered. Second, perhaps the Japanese were hoping to be taken up on their request to negotiate a peace.
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Scroto Gaggins

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #115 on: May 24, 2015, 02:50:13 AM »
You asked why they did not accept unconditional surrender, I gave a plausible answer.

So you're saying that they rejected unconditional surrender because they were scared of being subjugated by the Allies, but the Japanese government knew they were going to lose, so shouldn't they have known that either way Japan would be conquered? Why then would they choose the option that would drain more resources and get more soldiers killed? It doesn't seem like the option a fearful government would choose.
Firstly plenty of animals fight when cornered. Second, perhaps the Japanese were hoping to be taken up on their request to negotiate a peace.
Comparing the Japanese to animals? Okay.
They are taking the hobbits to Isengard.

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Rama Set

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #116 on: May 24, 2015, 05:47:19 AM »
Humans are animals mmmmmk?
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Scroto Gaggins

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #117 on: May 24, 2015, 05:56:15 AM »
Humans are animals mmmmmk?
And if animals always fought when cornered then no one would ever surrender.
Still a pretty offensive thing to say.
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Rama Set

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #118 on: May 24, 2015, 06:54:52 AM »
Humans are animals mmmmmk?
And if animals always fought when cornered then no one would ever surrender.
Still a pretty offensive thing to say.

Only because you are ignoring what I mean.
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The Ellimist

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings
« Reply #119 on: May 24, 2015, 11:02:20 AM »
You asked why they did not accept unconditional surrender, I gave a plausible answer.

So you're saying that they rejected unconditional surrender because they were scared of being subjugated by the Allies, but the Japanese government knew they were going to lose, so shouldn't they have known that either way Japan would be conquered? Why then would they choose the option that would drain more resources and get more soldiers killed? It doesn't seem like the option a fearful government would choose.
Firstly plenty of animals fight when cornered. Second, perhaps the Japanese were hoping to be taken up on their request to negotiate a peace.
An animal fights when cornered as an instinctive reaction to sudden danger. The Japanese had days to discuss amongst themselves whether they should unconditionally surrender and lose the war or fight back and lose the war, during which the Japanese Ambassador to Switzerland Shun'ichi Kase advised the government to accept the former. So, while being fearful of the enemy and discussing the Declaration for at least a day, with clear minds and time to think about their decision and at least some rational input from Ambassador Kase, they gave a reactionary, not-thought out response?

Quote
Second, perhaps the Japanese were hoping to be taken up on their request to negotiate a peace.

The peace talks had already been going on before the Potsdam declaration, with Japan still not accepting unconditional surrender.
Additionally, we cannot entirely rule out the nefarious effects of demons, spirits, gnomes, and wizards on our society's ability to comprehend our flat earth as it really is.