An easy experiment that can prove the shape of the Earth

I am going to attempt to organize an experiment to prove the shape of the Earth and I only need one other participant, but that participant must have a telescope equipped with a solar filter for sunspot viewing.  I have a solar filter equipped telescope, and what I plan to do is to have me and the other guy both aim our telescopes at the sun at the same time and take pictures of where the sunspots are, if our pictures show the same thing then we know that the sun is really far away and if they are different then the sun is closer.  The distance and size of the sun plays a big part in both the round earth and flat earth models, so it will reveal which model is correct.

You seem to be assuming that the sun is round for this experiment.  Perhaps you should not begin experiments with assumptions?

Oh, and you're not assuming the ice wall exists? You've seen it yourself, haven't you? Right? And you've seen the earth from above, too! Right? Right? Hypocrisy again.


Image aside, what makes you think the ice wall exists? The same reason we believe dark matter exists. We notice it's changes. Therefore they are both false or both true.

Where did I propose an experiment that was based on the assumption that there is an "ice wall" and then propose to work backwards from there?  Maybe you are confusing me with someone else?

That's just an example. But then I forget, you have done a grand total of 0 experiments.

You seem to be assuming that the sun is round for this experiment.  Perhaps you should not begin experiments with assumptions?

What else would it be?  If the sun were a disk then it would look elliptical to someone somewhere at any given time but it always looks very round in the sky.  If the sun were as small and close as flat earthers claim then this experiment would prove it.

You seem to be assuming that the sun is round for this experiment.  Perhaps you should not begin experiments with assumptions?

It's not an assumption, as anybody with basic equipment can ascertain for themselves.

Mikeman, I'd be happy to help. I have three scopes, two are equipped for white light solar viewing and the other is a dedicated Ha solar scope. I'm only limited by the sun being barely visible from my garden at the moment (garden is North of the terrace of houses i live in) and the abominable British weather.

Edi: oh and my day job of course

Quote from: jroa on January 21, 2015, 09:12:59 AM

You seem to be assuming that the sun is round for this experiment.  Perhaps you should not begin experiments with assumptions?

It's not an assumption, as anybody with basic equipment can ascertain for themselves.

Mikeman, I'd be happy to help. I have three scopes, two are equipped for white light solar viewing and the other is a dedicated Ha solar scope. I'm only limited by the sun being barely visible from my garden at the moment (garden is North of the terrace of houses i live in) and the abominable British weather.

Edi: oh and my day job of course

I live in America in the mountain time zone, I am free all of Saturday and I am thinking that we can do the experiment then.  What time zone are you in and will you be available to do this next Saturday?

You seem to be assuming that the sun is round for this experiment. 

We're not assuming anything, we can just look at it:

I live in America in the mountain time zone, I am free all of Saturday and I am thinking that we can do the experiment then.  What time zone are you in and will you be available to do this next Saturday?

I'm in the UK so GMT/UTC 0.

The forecast for Saturday (24th) should be clear here in the afternoon, as long as my wife doesn't plan anything at the last moment, I should be able to snap something. What are you looking for, whole sun?

Edit: to give you an idea of what i should be able to capture go to http://www.12dstring.me.uk/fov.htm. I'll have a better chance of being able to grab an image with my portable set up which is a Celestron NexStar 127 SLT with either a DMK21AU618 or a Canon 650D. You can choose the scope and cameras on the 12dstring site to give a rough approximation of the field of view I'll get. I also have a 0.5x focal reducer that I can use with the DMK.

I look forward to the results. Does anyone have a problem with the experiment setup? 

What is your hypothesis for this experiment? How will the data verify or refute the hypothesis?

What other hypotheses could be supported by the data you collect? In other words, how can this data distinguish a spheroidal sun from, say, a nearly circular, flat, earth-facing sun? Would other data you could collect as part of this experiment distinguish between these cases (I can think of a few things).

A quick check for sunrise and sunset times for Denver and London (I used 51° N, 0° W) for Jan 24 http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.php shows you don't have much overlap.

LOC sunrise / transit / sunset / TZ

DEN 07:14 / 12:12 / 17:10 / MST (UTC - 7h)
DEN 14:14 / 19:12 / 00:10 / UTC
LON 07:48 / 12:12 / 16:37 / UTC

Sunrise Denver 14:14 UTC, sunset London 16:37 UTC.

It looks like about 14:30 - 16:15 UTC (07:30 - 09:15 MST) - assuming Denver and London are close to your actual locations - is your best bet. This may be a good summertime experiment; on Jun 24 you'd have almost 9 hours of overlap and each could see the sun while it's transiting at the other's location.

You seem to be assuming that the sun is round for this experiment.  Perhaps you should not begin experiments with assumptions?

And a few other things.:
Are you assuming there is an ice ring of course ?...How about the ice dome ?....How about the distances to the moon and the sun ?......Et Cetera, Et Cetera And So Forth ?

Have you even begun any experiments to prove your assumptions  ?

In the words of any true flat-earther.:
"If you are assuming that the sun is round, you are incorrect in your assumption. Because you , among some 7 billion other persons on the earth,  have been brainwashed by those evil persons at all the astronomical observatories in the world into believing that the sun is round. Those people at the astronomical observatories are all of course part of The Round Earth Conspiracy !"  LOL

Quote from: jroa on January 21, 2015, 09:12:59 AM

You seem to be assuming that the sun is round for this experiment.  Perhaps you should not begin experiments with assumptions?

And a few other things.:
Are you assuming there is an ice ring of course ?...How about the ice dome ?....How about the distances to the moon and the sun ?......Et Cetera, Et Cetera And So Forth ?

Have you even begun any experiments to prove your assumptions  ?

In the words of any true flat-earther.:
"If you are assuming that the sun is round, you are incorrect in your assumption. Because you , among some 7 billion other persons on the earth,  have been brainwashed by those evil persons at all the astronomical observatories in the world into believing that the sun is round. Those people at the astronomical observatories are all of course part of The Round Earth Conspiracy !"  LOL

Are you saying that you should begin an experiment with preconceived assumptions?  Also, this thread is not about "ice walls" or any of that other junk that you round Earthers try to sling around here.  Please don't try to derail this thread. 

Quote from: Googleotomy on January 21, 2015, 08:02:14 PM

Quote from: jroa on January 21, 2015, 09:12:59 AM

You seem to be assuming that the sun is round for this experiment.  Perhaps you should not begin experiments with assumptions?

And a few other things.:
Are you assuming there is an ice ring of course ?...How about the ice dome ?....How about the distances to the moon and the sun ?......Et Cetera, Et Cetera And So Forth ?

Have you even begun any experiments to prove your assumptions  ?

In the words of any true flat-earther.:
"If you are assuming that the sun is round, you are incorrect in your assumption. Because you , among some 7 billion other persons on the earth,  have been brainwashed by those evil persons at all the astronomical observatories in the world into believing that the sun is round. Those people at the astronomical observatories are all of course part of The Round Earth Conspiracy !"  LOL

Are you saying that you should begin an experiment with preconceived assumptions?  Also, this thread is not about "ice walls" or any of that other junk that you round Earthers try to sling around here.  Please don't try to derail this thread.

There is nothing wrong with starting an experiment with preconceived assumptions.

There is nothing wrong with starting an experiment with preconceived assumptions.

Why even bother performing the experiment if you are just making stuff up in your head, then?

Quote from: sokarul on January 21, 2015, 08:19:02 PM

There is nothing wrong with starting an experiment with preconceived assumptions.

Why even bother performing the experiment if you are just making stuff up in your head, then?

Because the experiment will speak for itself. I'm not going to try and leach gold out of an ore with cat food because I have a preconceived assumption that cyanide will work.
Scientific method. Start with a hypotheses.

Quote from: jroa on January 21, 2015, 08:27:01 PM

Quote from: sokarul on January 21, 2015, 08:19:02 PM

There is nothing wrong with starting an experiment with preconceived assumptions.

Why even bother performing the experiment if you are just making stuff up in your head, then?

Because the experiment will speak for itself. I'm not going to try and leach gold out of an ore with cat food because I have a preconceived assumption that cyanide will work.
Scientific method. Start with a hypotheses.

A hypotheses is a guess, or an expectation, not an assumption.  I thought you said you work in the science field?

As for this thread. Here, I followed other examples.
Question: Is the earth round?
Hypotheses: Many have hypothesized that the Earth is round, orbiting the sun roughly 93 million miles away.
Prediction: If the sun is 93 million miles away, pictures taken at the same time from different locations should look the same. This prediction was determined using simple trigonometry.
Experiment:
Results:

 

Quote from: sokarul on January 21, 2015, 08:30:54 PM

Quote from: jroa on January 21, 2015, 08:27:01 PM

Quote from: sokarul on January 21, 2015, 08:19:02 PM

There is nothing wrong with starting an experiment with preconceived assumptions.

Why even bother performing the experiment if you are just making stuff up in your head, then?

Because the experiment will speak for itself. I'm not going to try and leach gold out of an ore with cat food because I have a preconceived assumption that cyanide will work.
Scientific method. Start with a hypotheses.

A hypotheses is a guess, or an expectation, not an assumption.  I thought you said you work in the science field?

You can make assumptions to form hypotheses. From wiki

An hypothesis is a conjecture, based on knowledge obtained while formulating the question, that may explain the observed behavior of a part of our universe.

"Knowledge obtained" can contain assumptions.
Nice attack though.

Since when does conjecture mean making an assumption?  Also, how does your quote differ from what I said?

Quote from: mikeman7918 on January 21, 2015, 01:16:04 PM

I live in America in the mountain time zone, I am free all of Saturday and I am thinking that we can do the experiment then.  What time zone are you in and will you be available to do this next Saturday?

I'm in the UK so GMT/UTC 0.

The forecast for Saturday (24th) should be clear here in the afternoon, as long as my wife doesn't plan anything at the last moment, I should be able to snap something. What are you looking for, whole sun?

Edit: to give you an idea of what i should be able to capture go to http://www.12dstring.me.uk/fov.htm. I'll have a better chance of being able to grab an image with my portable set up which is a Celestron NexStar 127 SLT with either a DMK21AU618 or a Canon 650D. You can choose the scope and cameras on the 12dstring site to give a rough approximation of the field of view I'll get. I also have a 0.5x focal reducer that I can use with the DMK.

The image I would like is a full sun image that's magnified enough to clearly see the sun spots.  I have done the math and sunrise for me on Saturday will be at about 2:50 in your time zone, so we have a good few hours when we can both see the Sun.  The weather report over here is clear skies as well, and I will get up earlier then normal in order to be ready with my telescope before the sun sets for you.

Since when does conjecture mean making an assumption?  Also, how does your quote differ from what I said?

Your not making assumptions about the data or results. You are making assumptions from "knowledge obtained while formulating the question".

Assumption, the sun exists.

See how it's ok? 

Quote from: jroa on January 21, 2015, 08:49:27 PM

Since when does conjecture mean making an assumption?  Also, how does your quote differ from what I said?

Your not making assumptions about the data or results. You are making assumptions from "knowledge obtained while formulating the question".

Assumption, the sun exists.

See how it's ok? 

Assuming something and conjecturing are two different things.  And, assuming data in order for it to fit you conjecture is not the same as performing a proper experiment.  Do you really not understand the difference?

Because there has been talk about hypotheses for this experiment, I will post my hypothesis.

If the Earth is round then the images of the Sun taken by Dephelix and I will look the same exept for differences in rotation of the images.

If the Earth is flat and the Sun is round then the images will show the sunspots to be in different places.

If the Earth is flat and Sun is flat then the sun will look like an ellipse in both images because we will be taking them right after sunrise for me and right before sunset for Dephelix.

Being a round Earther I expect that the images will be the same which supports a round Earth of course.

Do flat Earthers agree with my hypothesises?  If not then what would you propose?

Quote from: sokarul on January 21, 2015, 08:54:29 PM

Quote from: jroa on January 21, 2015, 08:49:27 PM

Since when does conjecture mean making an assumption?  Also, how does your quote differ from what I said?

Your not making assumptions about the data or results. You are making assumptions from "knowledge obtained while formulating the question".

Assumption, the sun exists.

See how it's ok? 

Assuming something and conjecturing are two different things.  And, assuming data in order for it to fit you conjecture is not the same as performing a proper experiment.  Do you really not understand the difference?

Where did I say assuming something and conjecturing are the same thing?  Did you not read where I said you don't assume data or results?

Like I said
Assumption, the sun exists.

No, the assumption is that the sun is round, without ever performing any tests, and then coming up with a hypotheses and performing an experiment based on that assumption.  Why do I have to explain this to you like you are still in high school?

No, the assumption is that the sun is round, without ever performing any tests, and then coming up with a hypotheses and performing an experiment based on that assumption.  Why do I have to explain this to you like you are still in high school?

You are assuming assumptions are bad so you can't see that they aren't.
As for the sun being round, that is a different hypothesis that was already showed in the past.  Here is wikipeida's example:

DNA example
DNA icon (25x25).png    The basic elements of the scientific method are illustrated by the following example from the discovery of the structure of DNA:

    Question: Previous investigation of DNA had determined its chemical composition (the four nucleotides), the structure of each individual nucleotide, and other properties. It had been identified as the carrier of genetic information by the Avery–MacLeod–McCarty experiment in 1944,[31] but the mechanism of how genetic information was stored in DNA was unclear.
    Hypothesis: Linus Pauling, Francis Crick and James D. Watson hypothesized that DNA had a helical structure.[32]
    Prediction: If DNA had a helical structure, its X-ray diffraction pattern would be X-shaped.[33][34] This prediction was determined using the mathematics of the helix transform, which had been derived by Cochran, Crick and Vand[35] (and independently by Stokes). This prediction was a mathematical construct, completely independent from the biological problem at hand.
    Experiment: Rosalind Franklin crystallized pure DNA and performed X-ray diffraction to produce photo 51. The results showed an X-shape.
    Analysis: When Watson saw the detailed diffraction pattern, he immediately recognized it as a helix.[36][37] He and Crick then produced their model, using this information along with the previously known information about DNA's composition and about molecular interactions such as hydrogen bonds.[38]

See how they don't first need to show DNA exists?
You only think you have to explain it to me because you yourself can't see it's already been explained.

#ws" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">A timelapse of the Sun in 4K

Now let's get back to talking about the experiment and making hypothesises about it rather then insult each other's hypothesis making skills.

Because there has been talk about hypotheses for this experiment, I will post my hypothesis.

If the Earth is round then the images of the Sun taken by Dephelix and I will look the same exept for differences in rotation of the images.

If the Earth is flat and the Sun is round then the images will show the sunspots to be in different places.

If the Earth is flat and Sun is flat then the sun will look like an ellipse in both images because we will be taking them right after sunrise for me and right before sunset for Dephelix.

Being a round Earther I expect that the images will be the same which supports a round Earth of course.

Do flat Earthers agree with my hypothesises?  If not then what would you propose?

Can this experiment unequivocally reject the hypothesis that the sun is flat but elliptical in outline, with the major axis of the ellipse aligned to make the Sun appear nearly circular due to foreshortening at both your locations at the time the photographs were taken?

In other words, can you design your experiment to reject the competing hypothesis that the Sun is a flat shape that can appear nearly circular under some conditions?