Good morning from me

Good morning everyone.

I found this site and decided to join it in good faith - good faith that, as per the Q and As, it is the genuinely held belief of some people of sound mind that the earth is flat.

I live in the UK, and as per my username, I'm a geography major. Perhaps, for me, it is a matter of principle that any belief, however much we assume it is a given, must be tested on the crucible of evidence. And, to me, the evidence that the earth is round is overwhelming - after all, my chosen field of study is pretty central to that evidence.

Even so, the first item of evidence of the earth's spherical shape was afforded to me by this site itself. I joined up just a few minutes ago. Yet, according to my profile, I joined at 1:07am this morning. Why, because it was 1:07am in Pacific Daylight Time, the time zone used by the western states of the USA, adjusted for daylight saving.

Here in England, it was 9:07am. That's because the earth is round, and at any one time, it's a different time in different parts of the world. At 1:07am this morning, I was sound asleep, as are most of the good people on Pacific Daylight Time, at the time I write this.

On a flat earth, it would be the same time, anywhere in the world.

Many of the contributors to this forum are probably American or Canadian, and are currently asleep. Well, have a good night's sleep, folks, and you will see this post when you get up in the morning.

That's all from me for the moment, but I look forward to some interesting future exchanges.

On a flat earth, it would be the same time, anywhere in the world.

Welcome to these fora.  Your question is one that is often posted here.  However, you seem to be slightly confused.  If the sun makes a 24 hour circle above the Earth, then it would be directly overhead at a different times, depending on where you are on the Earth.  Therefore, it is noon at different times in different places.

In other words, the flat Earth model is consistent with time zones that are observed daily on the Earth. 

Hi jroa

Thanks for your reply. I can assure you that there is no confusion.

It is the universal experience of all humans, that the sun rises in the east, and sets in the west. Between these events, there is daylight. Between sunset and sunrise, there is night. Other than light from the moon and man-made illumination, there is total darkness.

What are sunrise and sunset? In the one, the sun visibly rises above the horizon. In the other, it visibly descends below the horizon.

There are two explanations for this. (1) The world is flat, and the sun revolves around the flat earth. At night, it descends into whatever is below the earth, and emerges on the opposite side of the disk in the morning. (2) The world is round, and the sun revolves around the round earth (or vice versa, let's leave aside the geocentric/heliocentric model for the time being). At any one point in time, half the earth's sphere is pointing towards the sun, and it is daylight, and half the earth's sphere is pointing away from the sun, and it is night.

Now, what you are saying is that the sun makes a 24 hour circle above the flat earth. If this were true, then yes, it would be directly overhead at different times in different parts of the flat earth. But elsewhere on the earth, it would still be visible, albeit low on the horizon. There would be weak light, maybe twilight, but certainly nothing resembling sunrise and sunset.

For sunset to occur on a flat earth, the sun must descend below the rim of the flat earth. For sunrise to occur, it must rise above that rim.

PS: American posters are probably enjoying their breakfast at the moment. I've just finished lunch. When I went to the States, I really loved the breakfasts they do over there.

Hi Geographer!

I am a GIS Cartographer so we might have quite a bit of interests in common.

I made a thread once demonstrating where the sunlit portions of Earth were, featuring links to live webcams to verify sun in Australia and sun in South America.  The thread is here Sunlight Right Now


Flat Earthers ignore the consistency of the data. They ignore that you can check sun-schedules for any part in the world and verify how it looks on a projection of the Earth.  They ignore what the terminator, day, and night would look like on their supposed flat earth map.

They will ignore everything you tell them. And you might try your hardest to get them to understand one basic concept, such as FOV and sphere visibility

But understand that these are not 5 year olds absorbing information. These are adults who have convinced themselves the world is lying to them.  So, as hopeful as you may be in teaching them, I warn you that it's a long and endless battle ahead.

Anyway, welcome! We should talk about maps!

Hi FlatOrange

Thanks for your post and welcome.

I used to work in GIS, and still do a bit of spatial work as part of my current job. What kind of maps do you make?

Perhaps what motivates me is a desire to be absolutely sure, myself, that what I have been brought up to believe is right. The round earth is perhaps at the extreme end of that spectrum, but we need to follow the evidence. What surprises me, perhaps, is the idea that the sun is permanently above the earth, something which is surely contradicted by the evidence of anyone's eyes. Hopefully there will be some more input from Flat Earthers on that point.

Unfortunately, I can't get the links in your post to work.

The main issue with the notion that the sun is orbiting in a fixed circular path above the surface of the earth at all times is simply that were this the case, then it would never be totally dark anywhere on the earth's surface.  The light from the sun can travel an infinite distance, so even if it were (say) 50,000km distant, you'd still easily be able to see it from any point on a flat earth.

Some flat earthers have described the sun as acting more like a "spotlight"—and with the same sort of relatively localised, circular source of light striking the earth's surface.  But then none of them have explained the "structure" of this proposed spotlight, what materials it's composed of, or what energises it.

Flat Earthers ignore the consistency of the data. They ignore that you can check sun-schedules for any part in the world and verify how it looks on a projection of the Earth.  They ignore what the terminator, day, and night would look like on their supposed flat earth map.

They will ignore everything you tell them.

To be fair, what else are they meant to do?  Sunsets would not exist on a flat earth, yet there they are.  All they can do is ignore them.

The main issue with the notion that the sun is orbiting in a fixed circular path above the surface of the earth at all times is simply that were this the case, then it would never be totally dark anywhere on the earth's surface.  The light from the sun can travel an infinite distance, so even if it were (say) 50,000km distant, you'd still easily be able to see it from any point on a flat earth.

Exactly, and the FE'ers seem to have gone very quiet on this point. Are we supposed to disbelieve the evidence of our own eyes?

Hi FlatOrange

Thanks for your post and welcome.

I used to work in GIS, and still do a bit of spatial work as part of my current job. What kind of maps do you make?

Perhaps what motivates me is a desire to be absolutely sure, myself, that what I have been brought up to believe is right. The round earth is perhaps at the extreme end of that spectrum, but we need to follow the evidence. What surprises me, perhaps, is the idea that the sun is permanently above the earth, something which is surely contradicted by the evidence of anyone's eyes. Hopefully there will be some more input from Flat Earthers on that point.

Unfortunately, I can't get the links in your post to work.

Fixed the links. This site edits url links after you hit post.

I make all kinds of maps 

Quote from: ausGeoff on September 04, 2014, 04:56:57 AM

The main issue with the notion that the sun is orbiting in a fixed circular path above the surface of the earth at all times is simply that were this the case, then it would never be totally dark anywhere on the earth's surface.  The light from the sun can travel an infinite distance, so even if it were (say) 50,000km distant, you'd still easily be able to see it from any point on a flat earth.

Exactly, and the FE'ers seem to have gone very quiet on this point. Are we supposed to disbelieve the evidence of our own eyes?

How can we trust when our perception is accurate and when it’s not?

Worryingly, we can’t.



Contrary to the evidence of our eyes, the squares labelled A and B are exactly the same shade of grey. That’s insane, right?

Obviously they’re a different shade. We know because we can clearly see they’re a different shade. Anyone claiming otherwise is an idiot.





Well, no. As this second illustration shows, the shades really are the same shade.

How can this be so?  We literally see something that isn’t there. This is a common phenomenon and Katherine Schultz -describes illusions as “a gateway drug to humility” ..

So, are we supposed to disbelieve the evidence of our own eyes?

How can we trust when our perception is accurate and when it’s not?

Worryingly, we can’t.



Contrary to the evidence of our eyes, the squares labelled A and B are exactly the same shade of grey. That’s insane, right?

Obviously they’re a different shade. We know because we can clearly see they’re a different shade. Anyone claiming otherwise is an idiot.

Thank you.  You've just unwittingly undermined the common claim of many flat earthers that the earth must be flat because when they look out from their window, their "perception" is that it looks flat.

Well done.   

So, are we supposed to disbelieve the evidence of our own eyes?

Not at all. The eye informs us that the surface is a chequerboard of dark and light squares. B would be lighter than A, were it not for the fact that B is in the shadow of the green cylinder.

I accept that certain pictures can create an optical illusion of this kind. The question is, how does this relate to sunrises and sunsets? I'm not at all clear what collection of smoke and mirrors can give the impression that the sun rises above the horizon, or sinks below the horizon, when in fact, based on the information in jroa's post, it remains above the horizon at all times.

Goth confuses "perception" with "evidence".

Flat earthers fall for this all the time.  Simply because they perceive the earth's surface as flat—upon looking out from their window—they accept it as evidence that it is so.

If I understood everything correctly while I was lurking, FE'ers believe light to propagate like this. (Which, I think, is really weird for them.)