So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed

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So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« on: July 15, 2014, 04:50:13 PM »
Buzz Aldrin, one of the 12 men that have walked on the Moon, published a commentary today on CNN in which he talks about the USA's space program, past and present.  And he talks about possible missions to Mars in the future.  Here is the article: http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/15/opinion/aldrin-my-moon-walk-mars/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

Since the flat earth argument crumbles completely if NASA is telling the truth about the Apollo program, flat earthers are forced to argue that all 12 men that walked on the Moon are A) lying, B) delusional or C) brainwashed.  I would like to know which option flat earthers claim and why.
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Shmeggley

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2014, 05:19:37 PM »
I think most conspiracy wonks argue A) that they are well compensated shills. I think there are a few that would claim C), possibly even combining with A). I've never heard anyone claim B). I think that would make little sense, even to most nutjobs, since so many people would have to have the same delusion which would be extremely unlikely.
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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2014, 05:38:21 PM »
I think most conspiracy wonks argue A) that they are well compensated shills. I think there are a few that would claim C), possibly even combining with A). I've never heard anyone claim B). I think that would make little sense, even to most nutjobs, since so many people would have to have the same delusion which would be extremely unlikely.

To a rational person, A and C are almost as nonsensical as B, but of course flat earthers aren't known for being highly rational.  I eagerly await some FE responses regarding these three choices.
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Shmeggley

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2014, 06:30:27 PM »
Lying for cash is nothing new or even farfetched. I'm sure that's what's happening with professional shit-stirrers like Anne Coulter and Rush Limbaugh. It's just the scale and scope of the conspiracy that Aldrin is supposedly involved in that's nuts. So I can sort of see why people might buy this one if they didn't think very hard about it.

Being brainwashed is far less likely, especially for the amount of time Aldrin has been involved. While there's some precedent for it that kind of conditioning isn't all that effective nor that permanent, as far as I know. You really only see that kind of dedication in cults, and even there it's only effective for as long as you can keep people isolated from the rest of society. Aldrin doesn't appear to fit the profile of a cult member. Still, I can see some of the nuttier fruitcakes buying this due to severe lack of any critical thinking skills, which is depressingly commonplace.


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sceptimatic

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2014, 04:02:18 AM »
TV actors do it all the time. They follow a script for a decent pay day and celebrity life. People will literally spit in their own families faces for the chance to get fame and fortune.

So the Apollo people who play the astronauts get told to act out a scene or scenes for a life time of fame and fortune. What harm are they doing? It's only what TV actors do, except this is passed off as real but it will never come to light that it's all faked, so they live out the lie with the trimmings that go with it.
All they have to do, is study the storylines so they can answer questions as they arise.

What would it take for any of you to follow a script for a potential lifetime of fortune and fame?
People can think what they want about whether those people are lying or not. the issue is, nobody gets to physically prove it unless someone breaks down and tells the truth.
The problem with that is, how far would the guilty persons truth go? It would go as far as a bit of tongue wagging before they were deemed insane and suffering from space dementia or whatever is bestowed upon them.

Argue all you want about this not being possible. You know it is and you also know that Armstrong displayed very weird mannerisms all the way throughout his life after his so called space jaunt. Most other actornauts revel in the fame and the money that comes their way.

Once you accept the invitation to the lie, you have to live that lie. there's no backing out freely or without consequence.
Aldrin isn't brainwashed. Aldrin struggles to keep up the ruse. Their post Apollo conference should be enough to tell any rational person that something is not right. The only thing missing from the conference, is the forehead stickers that should read LIAR.

Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2014, 04:30:39 AM »
If it had been a one time event.....believing that man going into space was a lie and a conspiracy wouldn't seem all that odd.

But the size and scope of not only the US's space program but other countries as well.......plus the number of people involved and all the pictures and footage accumulated over the years makes it hard for any logical person to assume it's all fake.

Just my opinion.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2014, 04:37:48 AM »
If it had been a one time event.....believing that man going into space was a lie and a conspiracy wouldn't seem all that odd.

But the size and scope of not only the US's space program but other countries as well.......plus the number of people involved and all the pictures and footage accumulated over the years makes it hard for any logical person to assume it's all fake.

Just my opinion.

Going to the moon was an event that lasted just a few years and supposedly happened almost half a century ago.  If it was so easy back then with the relatively primitive technology they had, they why can't we do it today?  Why did it take them just a decade to make it to the moon, but here we are, forty something years later, with far superior technology, and we can't even put a man on Mars?  Think about it.

Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2014, 04:44:05 AM »
If it had been a one time event.....believing that man going into space was a lie and a conspiracy wouldn't seem all that odd.

But the size and scope of not only the US's space program but other countries as well.......plus the number of people involved and all the pictures and footage accumulated over the years makes it hard for any logical person to assume it's all fake.

Just my opinion.

Going to the moon was an event that lasted just a few years and supposedly happened almost half a century ago.  If it was so easy back then with the relatively primitive technology they had, they why can't we do it today?  Why did it take them just a decade to make it to the moon, but here we are, forty something years later, with far superior technology, and we can't even put a man on Mars?  Think about it.

As far as going to Mars and landing a man there...........the moon is roughly like 385,000 KM from Earth...........Mars is like 55 million KMs away. See a difference there?

As to why we haven't been back to the moon. Great question. I think part of it is there isn't anything new to be gained by going versus the cost of doing it. And the concentration of space exploration has been in areas other than the moon.

Some alien conspiracy buffs believe we don't go back because there is life there and they don't want us coming back.

I honestly don't know the answer. Not going back doesn't prove we never went though.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2014, 05:06:05 AM »
You are correct.  Not going back does not prove that we never went.  However, it does cause some suspicion, and coupled with other space inconsistencies, it really brings into question whether or not we ever went there. 

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markjo

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2014, 06:17:40 AM »
???  We never went back?  What about all of the unmanned probes that we've been sending back for the last 10 years or so?
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Son of Orospu

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2014, 06:20:55 AM »
???  We never went back?  What about all of the unmanned probes that we've been sending back for the last 10 years or so?

What do unmanned supposed probes have to do with manned missions to walk on the moon?  Did you skip your meds today? 

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markjo

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2014, 06:24:03 AM »
???  We never went back?  What about all of the unmanned probes that we've been sending back for the last 10 years or so?

What do unmanned supposed probes have to do with manned missions to walk on the moon?  Did you skip your meds today?

Who said that manned missions are the only way of "going back"?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Son of Orospu

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2014, 06:29:16 AM »
Men in space suites is kind of the theme that got NASA all of their money, is it not? ???

Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2014, 06:47:33 AM »
I think most conspiracy wonks argue A) that they are well compensated shills. I think there are a few that would claim C), possibly even combining with A). I've never heard anyone claim B). I think that would make little sense, even to most nutjobs, since so many people would have to have the same delusion which would be extremely unlikely.
What happened to choice D.Wanting his family & him self to grow old. The Gemini missions I think had a bit more truth about them, even though some of the photos are faked .They would of realised during those missions, going to the moon was not possible. Gemini 11, 1st apogee (307.1 km) Period 90.56 min . space shuttle (620 km) Which I think is not true & over stated. But we will use it as a comparison to travelling to the Moon, distance 363,104 km - 405,696 km. They walked on the moon  ::)
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markjo

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2014, 07:03:12 AM »
Men in space suites is kind of the theme that got NASA all of their money, is it not? ???
No, it is not.  NASA got a good bit of their money for sending unmanned probes to places that would take too long or are too dangerous to send men in space suits.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Pongo

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2014, 07:16:42 AM »
It's always stunned me that people think the US Government couldn't find 12 people to keep a secret.  Finding just 12 people to lie for fame and fortune is well beyond the means and scope of the worlds most powerful government (at the time).

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BJ1234

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2014, 07:23:32 AM »
It's always stunned me that people think the US Government couldn't find 12 people to keep a secret.  Finding just 12 people to lie for fame and fortune is well beyond the means and scope of the worlds most powerful government (at the time).
Since when are there only 12 people involved in the Apollo program?

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Pongo

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2014, 08:01:23 AM »
It's always stunned me that people think the US Government couldn't find 12 people to keep a secret.  Finding just 12 people to lie for fame and fortune is well beyond the means and scope of the worlds most powerful government (at the time).
Since when are there only 12 people involved in the Apollo program?

Oh, I thought this thread was about astronauts.

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BJ1234

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2014, 08:28:44 AM »
It's always stunned me that people think the US Government couldn't find 12 people to keep a secret.  Finding just 12 people to lie for fame and fortune is well beyond the means and scope of the worlds most powerful government (at the time).
Since when are there only 12 people involved in the Apollo program?

Oh, I thought this thread was about astronauts.
Well, maybe you should read the entire OP and not just the topic.

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Shmeggley

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2014, 08:53:05 AM »
TV actors do it all the time. They follow a script for a decent pay day and celebrity life. People will literally spit in their own families faces for the chance to get fame and fortune.

So the Apollo people who play the astronauts get told to act out a scene or scenes for a life time of fame and fortune. What harm are they doing? It's only what TV actors do, except this is passed off as real but it will never come to light that it's all faked, so they live out the lie with the trimmings that go with it.
All they have to do, is study the storylines so they can answer questions as they arise.

What would it take for any of you to follow a script for a potential lifetime of fortune and fame?
People can think what they want about whether those people are lying or not. the issue is, nobody gets to physically prove it unless someone breaks down and tells the truth.
The problem with that is, how far would the guilty persons truth go? It would go as far as a bit of tongue wagging before they were deemed insane and suffering from space dementia or whatever is bestowed upon them.

Argue all you want about this not being possible. You know it is and you also know that Armstrong displayed very weird mannerisms all the way throughout his life after his so called space jaunt. Most other actornauts revel in the fame and the money that comes their way.

Once you accept the invitation to the lie, you have to live that lie. there's no backing out freely or without consequence.
Aldrin isn't brainwashed. Aldrin struggles to keep up the ruse. Their post Apollo conference should be enough to tell any rational person that something is not right. The only thing missing from the conference, is the forehead stickers that should read LIAR.

tl;dr - Actors exist, astronauts could possibly be actors, therefor astronauts are actors. Nobody can argue with that sound logic.
Giess what? I am a tin foil hat conspiracy lunatic who knows nothing... See what I'm getting at here?

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Shmeggley

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2014, 08:59:35 AM »
It's always stunned me that people think the US Government couldn't find 12 people to keep a secret.  Finding just 12 people to lie for fame and fortune is well beyond the means and scope of the worlds most powerful government (at the time).

I'm stunned that you think that all it would take to cover up the Apollo program is for just the 12 astronauts to lie about it.
Giess what? I am a tin foil hat conspiracy lunatic who knows nothing... See what I'm getting at here?

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Pongo

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2014, 09:23:49 AM »
It's always stunned me that people think the US Government couldn't find 12 people to keep a secret.  Finding just 12 people to lie for fame and fortune is well beyond the means and scope of the worlds most powerful government (at the time).

I'm stunned that you think that all it would take to cover up the Apollo program is for just the 12 astronauts to lie about it.

I never said that.  The OP said something along the lines of it being ridiculous that an astronaut could be lying.  I find it stunning that people think that they cannot.  This is how the conversation went.

OP:This one astronaut says the moon landing happened and the other 11 that walked on the moon can't all be lying.
Me: I find it stunning that the govt can't find 12 people to lie.
RE'er: OMG! IT TAKES WAY MORE THAN 12 PEOPLE TO MAKE THE CONSPIRACY WORK!!!!!


Obviously it takes more that 12 people.  At the very least there were allegedly pilots on the missions too.  It's so reassuring to be a flat-earther when all the round-earthers ever do is straw-man my arguments over and over and over again.

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BJ1234

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2014, 09:52:34 AM »
Oh, good to see that you were going for the straw man argument there then.

Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2014, 12:24:31 PM »
It's always stunned me that people think the US Government couldn't find 12 people to keep a secret.  Finding just 12 people to lie for fame and fortune is well beyond the means and scope of the worlds most powerful government (at the time).

I'm stunned that you think that all it would take to cover up the Apollo program is for just the 12 astronauts to lie about it.

I never said that.

You did - you said exactly that:

Quote
Finding just 12 people to lie
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Pongo

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2014, 12:49:28 PM »
It's always stunned me that people think the US Government couldn't find 12 people to keep a secret.  Finding just 12 people to lie for fame and fortune is well beyond the means and scope of the worlds most powerful government (at the time).

I'm stunned that you think that all it would take to cover up the Apollo program is for just the 12 astronauts to lie about it.

I never said that.

You did - you said exactly that:

Quote
Finding just 12 people to lie

...just 12 to lie about moon-walking 

...what the OP was about. 

I forget at times how painfully literal one needs to be for round-earthers. 

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Shmeggley

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2014, 12:49:39 PM »
It's always stunned me that people think the US Government couldn't find 12 people to keep a secret.  Finding just 12 people to lie for fame and fortune is well beyond the means and scope of the worlds most powerful government (at the time).

I'm stunned that you think that all it would take to cover up the Apollo program is for just the 12 astronauts to lie about it.

I never said that.  The OP said something along the lines of it being ridiculous that an astronaut could be lying.  I find it stunning that people think that they cannot.  This is how the conversation went.

OP:This one astronaut says the moon landing happened and the other 11 that walked on the moon can't all be lying.
Me: I find it stunning that the govt can't find 12 people to lie.
RE'er: OMG! IT TAKES WAY MORE THAN 12 PEOPLE TO MAKE THE CONSPIRACY WORK!!!!!


Obviously it takes more that 12 people.  At the very least there were allegedly pilots on the missions too.  It's so reassuring to be a flat-earther when all the round-earthers ever do is straw-man my arguments over and over and over again.

We now agree then that it does take more than 12 people, namely just the astronauts as you stated. There's hope for you yet.
Giess what? I am a tin foil hat conspiracy lunatic who knows nothing... See what I'm getting at here?

Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2014, 08:12:29 PM »
Hundreds if not thousands of people would have to have been in on the conspiracy if the Moon landings were faked.  Think of all the engineers designing, testing and operating all of the vehicles and providing all kinds of support.  And all the people that would have been involved in the fake videos, fake photos, etc.  And yet, to this day, not a single Apollo official has come forward to reveal the "truth" about the fake missions.  Wouldn't you think that at least one person on his deathbed would say, "Before I die, I have to tell the truth.  We faked the Apollo program."  Nope, not a single one. 

Every day in the United States top officials leak information about important things.  Look at Edward Snowden. Or Deepthroat from Watergate -- that guy's leaked information brought down the President himself!  Yet somehow, out of thousands of people that would have been in on the Apollo conspiracy, not a single one has leaked the "truth" -- not even anonymously.  And this is what flat earthers believe.
Sceptimatic is a proven liar - he claims to have authored several books but won't reveal their names.

Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2014, 08:18:33 PM »
You are correct.  Not going back does not prove that we never went.  However, it does cause some suspicion, and coupled with other space inconsistencies, it really brings into question whether or not we ever went there.

Why is it at all suspicious that we don't keep going back to the moon?  NASA landed men on the moon on six different missions.  Not much has changed on the moon since the last time we were there, and all manned missions are extremely expensive. 

I'm sure many people have climbed Mt. Everest six times.  If they don't climb that mountain a 7th time, would you say that they must be lying about having every climbed it?
Sceptimatic is a proven liar - he claims to have authored several books but won't reveal their names.

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macrohard

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2014, 09:05:39 PM »
My grandfather was an engineer for Nasa and worked on the Apollo program in the 60s and early 70s.  He is enormously proud of his accomplishments.  He has a medallion commemorating his participation in Apollo 11.

If the landing was faked, the engineers at least thought they designed something legitimate.  The engineers designed what they designed.  That happened and they wouldn't have to lie about it.

Conspiracy: NASA execs took the designs but didn't actually undertake the mission.  Only a few at the top plus a dozen astronauts need bribes/threats.  The thousands of people who worked on the project need not be let in on the secret.

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BJ1234

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Re: So I guess Buzz Aldrin is still brainwashed
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2014, 09:29:15 PM »
My grandfather was an engineer for Nasa and worked on the Apollo program in the 60s and early 70s.  He is enormously proud of his accomplishments.  He has a medallion commemorating his participation in Apollo 11.

If the landing was faked, the engineers at least thought they designed something legitimate.  The engineers designed what they designed.  That happened and they wouldn't have to lie about it.

Conspiracy: NASA execs took the designs but didn't actually undertake the mission.  Only a few at the top plus a dozen astronauts need bribes/threats.  The thousands of people who worked on the project need not be let in on the secret.
Except that there have been 24 astronauts that have orbited the moon, and many many more that have orbited the Earth. According to this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_astronauts_by_name, over 560.  All from different countries, all from different eras.  This alone makes the "they are all being bribed/threatened" argument less likely.