God does not exist

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God does not exist
« Reply #180 on: November 11, 2006, 07:28:00 PM »
That isn't a problem with predestination at all.  There's no "I'm God so I'm above logic" principle in any rational conversation.  Some people do make the claim that you made, but it doesn't serve any purpose except to say, once again, "Blah blah blah, I have no idea what I'm talking about."
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Nomad

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God does not exist
« Reply #181 on: November 11, 2006, 07:34:58 PM »
I don't believe in anything like predestination.  But I do feel that the concept of Karma holds true to reality.  Not in the sense that there is "bad karma" and "good karma", but in the "cause and effect" manner.

My favorite author James Alan Gardner put it perfectly in his book Radiant, saying:

Quote from: "James Alan Gardner in Radiant"
...Karma simply means that the choices you made yesterday affect the options you have today.  It's common sense.  Nothing is inevitable or predetermined...yet your actions and the actions of others can sometimes produce a cumulative momentum almost impossible to resist.  That's what karma is: the momentum of cause and effect that drives you forward, occasionally into bottlenecks or booby traps.


Anyway.  Predestination itself isn't exactly the topic at hand, rather the logical inconsistency of God predetermining everyone who will be saved, thus negating the idea of free will to believe in God.  Which is pretty self explanatory to me.
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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #182 on: November 11, 2006, 07:51:09 PM »
Quote from: "thedigitalnomad"
I don't believe in anything like predestination.


What about causality?

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Nomad

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« Reply #183 on: November 11, 2006, 08:08:27 PM »
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Quote from: "thedigitalnomad"
I don't believe in anything like predestination.


What about causality?


Um.  That's much too vague of a question.  What exactly is causality?  Wikipedia just makes things even more vague for me.
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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #184 on: November 11, 2006, 08:11:26 PM »
Quote from: "thedigitalnomad"
Quote from: "Ubuntu"
Quote from: "thedigitalnomad"
I don't believe in anything like predestination.


What about causality?


Um.  That's much too vague of a question.  What exactly is causality?  Wikipedia just makes things even more vague for me.


Cause and effect.

God does not exist
« Reply #185 on: November 11, 2006, 08:14:40 PM »
Ubuntu, there are some problems with causality as expressed by David Hume.

John Locke said that knowledge comes to us through sense data collection (the mind is a "tabula rasa" at birth--meaning, "blank tablet").  Hume said that if this is the case, and if it is also the case that "to know something is to know its causes," then the causal connections must come to us through sense data collection.  Essentially, we would need to be able to perceive the cause, the effect, and the causal connection for this to work.  He concluded that we can definitely perceive objects, but not the causal connection between objects--this, he says, comes from the mind itself.  He argued that the mind is a "relationsihp-maker" (that it assembles causal connections/relationships).

Hume further argued that how we decide to establish the causal connection is based on habit-forming processes in the mind itself.

Anyway, that's just Hume's take on things.  We discussed the other causality stuff before.  I need to read a book on this stuff and then re-start that conversation again.  It's a good one.
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beast

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God does not exist
« Reply #186 on: November 11, 2006, 08:19:03 PM »
This debate is silly.  It's silly to try to understand what people believe and to argue the case of God based on if he does exist.  The fact is that there is absolutely no external evidence that suggests the merest possibility of God existing - there is nothing that can lead you to draw a conclusion that God exists in the world.  Coming to that conclusion is not science, it's not logic, it's certainly not reason - it's people making shit up.  Shit being the operative word hear because it's a load of crap.  God does not exist, people who think God exists are deluding themselves because they find it hard to cope with the unfairness of the world and with our lack of genuine purpose.  They are either people who were brought up being told that it's true and can't accept that what they're parents told them is false or they are people who are too insecure and weak to accept reality.

God does not exist
« Reply #187 on: November 11, 2006, 08:27:37 PM »
Quote from: "beast"
Coming to that conclusion is not science, it's not logic, it's certainly not reason


Logic and reason are waaaaaay different than science.

Often times when people speak the word "God" they use it to mean a different word than you're probably thinking of.  I can imagine a perfectly rational (as far as I know) "God" (i.e. creator) of our so-called "universe" that may or may not exist.  If we end the conversation about "God," then we basically kill the greatest philosophical conversation ever to take place.  So calm down and let people rationally discuss things philosophically.
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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #188 on: November 11, 2006, 08:31:09 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
If we end the conversation about "God," then we basically kill the greatest philosophical conversation ever to take place.


I beg to differ!

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beast

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God does not exist
« Reply #189 on: November 11, 2006, 08:33:51 PM »
Quote from: "knight"
Logic and reason are waaaaaay different than science.


The dictionary disagrees with you.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/science

"1.   a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
2.   systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation."


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/logic

"1.   the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference."

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beast

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God does not exist
« Reply #190 on: November 11, 2006, 08:38:18 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"
 I can imagine a perfectly rational (as far as I know) "God" (i.e. creator) of our so-called "universe" that may or may not exist.



I can imagine a house made out of chocolate.  Just because you like the answer, if you have no observational evidence to suggest that it is even remotely possible that that statement is true then we have to assume that it is false.  It would be nice if God existed just like it would be nice if nobody ever died.  Being able to imagine something being true, or to say that it is theoretically true - does not in any way actually make it true.  I can imagine that you're actually a lesbian midget biker from Jamaica and theoretically from my perspective that could be the case but there is no reason to think that it actually is the case - just like there is no reason to think that God actually exists.

I didn't say you should stop the discussion, just that it is silly and the reason it is silly is because there is no reason to believe in God - so we shouldn't.

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God does not exist
« Reply #191 on: November 11, 2006, 08:47:22 PM »
Most people I run into who dislike my disdain for God usually give me that "It's better to believe in God and him not be real, than to not believe and burn in Hell" crap.

Man, I hate that.  

Who's to say which god is the God?  I think more education on culture as kids grow up will help stimulate this question in people's minds, "How do I know this god is the true God?"  The fact is, it's impossible, just short of the hand of God (or hands of Gods if you swing that way) coming down and showing everyone himself in plain view.  Anyone from any faith will tell you that their faith is the correct path, which again is impossible for all of them to be correct.  Someone somewhere is full of shit, and my money is on all of them.

That has always been my thoughts towards god.  Even though I've toyed with the idea of following Christianity, that thought has always stuck in my mind and made me realize better.

Of course, any Christian will tell me that's the work of Satan clouding my vision, but what the fuck ever.  I'd rather not believe in God than be a douchebag and follow whatever everyone else tells me to, and think for myself.
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God does not exist
« Reply #192 on: November 11, 2006, 08:56:07 PM »
First, the difference between logic and science is obvious to me, yet maybe not to you.  Logic deals with things we can know for "certain"--that is, a priori information such as mathematics.  Science deals with a posteriori stuff like observations.  There is no logical reason that a posteriori observations (scientific theories) will be necessarily true tomorrow.  There is an inherent problem with induction, and that is, that it never leads to certainty.  That's the difference between science and logic.

The idea that there is no reason to believe in God is itself a silly statement because you're once again generalizing the usage of the word "God" to mean a certain thing--that is, what you take it to mean.  Like I said, people tend to use the word to mean different things, so to not recognize that fact would be silly.  There are actually plenty of reasons to believe in God: existence itself, complexity of the human body, the beauty of nature, etc.  Now granted, your scientific story can also give an answer to these questions.  However, what you seem to be doing is saying "I can answer that a different way so there's no reason to think your way about it."  Well, a theist could easily say "I can answer these questions a different way so the way you're thinking about it is useless."  You have to recognize that there are different viewpoints in order to keep the conversation going.  Otherwise you become the same dogmatic fundamentalist that doesn't listen to anything the opposing side says as religious fundamentalists.
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beast

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God does not exist
« Reply #193 on: November 11, 2006, 09:01:57 PM »
Quote from: "Knight"

There are actually plenty of reasons to believe in God: existence itself, complexity of the human body, the beauty of nature, etc.  Now granted, your scientific story can also give an answer to these questions.  However, what you seem to be doing is saying "I can answer that a different way so there's no reason to think your way about it."  Well, a theist could easily say "I can answer these questions a different way so the way you're thinking about it is useless."  You have to recognize that there are different viewpoints in order to keep the conversation going.  Otherwise you become the same dogmatic fundamentalist that doesn't listen to anything the opposing side says as religious fundamentalists.


There is no reason that suggests that God is the answer to those phenomenon.  Explain to me a reason that suggests any kind of supernaturalism is responsible for the beauty of nature, the complexity of the human body or existence.

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dysfunction

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God does not exist
« Reply #194 on: November 11, 2006, 09:03:29 PM »
Quote from: "thedigitalnomad"
Most people I run into who dislike my disdain for God usually give me that "It's better to believe in God and him not be real, than to not believe and burn in Hell" crap.

Man, I hate that.


Ah, Pascal's Wager. Can't they dredge up some more recent BS than that, at least?
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God does not exist
« Reply #195 on: November 11, 2006, 09:10:58 PM »
Quote from: "beast"
Quote from: "Knight"

There are actually plenty of reasons to believe in God: existence itself, complexity of the human body, the beauty of nature, etc.  Now granted, your scientific story can also give an answer to these questions.  However, what you seem to be doing is saying "I can answer that a different way so there's no reason to think your way about it."  Well, a theist could easily say "I can answer these questions a different way so the way you're thinking about it is useless."  You have to recognize that there are different viewpoints in order to keep the conversation going.  Otherwise you become the same dogmatic fundamentalist that doesn't listen to anything the opposing side says as religious fundamentalists.


There is no reason that suggests that God is the answer to those phenomenon.  Explain to me a reason that suggests any kind of supernaturalism is responsible for the beauty of nature, the complexity of the human body or existence.


The flying spaghetti monster  :wink:  :roll:
quote="DiegoDraw"]"And Moses said unto his brethren: 'The Earth is flat!...biznatches,'" [/quote]
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God does not exist
« Reply #196 on: November 11, 2006, 09:13:20 PM »
Quote from: "beast"
Explain to me a reason that suggests any kind of supernaturalism is responsible for the beauty of nature, the complexity of the human body or existence.


It appears that I exist in a world of other things that exist.  It is hard for me to understand exactly why things exist instead of not existing.  Therefore, I believe that there must be a purpose and creator to it all.

or

It appears that things exist.  I won't speculate at all as to why because there's no reason to believe that there's a purpose or a God.

I have reason to believe that there might be a creator.  I'll be thinking about my reason for the next few years and eventually write something about it.  Basically, it's not all that hard to accept the possibility of a creator as long as you recognize the different definitions for "God" (i.e. he is not necessarily omnipotent, omniscient, etc.).  I'll be taking Philosophy of Religion sometime with my fav. professor but until then I can only investigate on my own time by reading books and stuff (and I'll read both theistic and atheistic books).  Next semester I'm taking Philosophy of Sciences where we get to learn in detail why modern science fails.  Fun fun.
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beast

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God does not exist
« Reply #197 on: November 11, 2006, 09:21:01 PM »
Your reason in no way suggests that there is any supernaturalism responsible for the world.  

Quote
It appears that I exist in a world of other things that exist. It is hard for me to understand exactly why things exist instead of not existing.


Your observation is that you find it hard to understand why things exist.  Nothing from that observation suggests any kind of supernaturalism.  You can't just see something (in this case your lack of understanding) and make up a reason for that observation when you have no reason to believe what you've just made up.

Quote
It appears that I exist in a world of other things that exist. It is hard for me to understand exactly why things exist instead of not existing.

That's not what I'm doing at all, or what you should do.  We can see many reasons why things exist from different contexts.  We need to understand that the concept of "purpose" is a human invention and that the natural world does not have purpose.  We need to understand that just because we don't understand something, inventing an explanation won't provide us with the truth - instead we need to recognise that we don't know and continue trying to find more real observations that will lead us to conclusions.

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Ubuntu

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God does not exist
« Reply #198 on: November 12, 2006, 11:22:28 AM »
Quote from: "Knight"
It appears that I exist in a world of other things that exist.  It is hard for me to understand exactly why things exist instead of not existing.  Therefore, I believe that there must be a purpose and creator to it all.


DAWKINS: To me, the right approach is to say we are profoundly ignorant of these matters. We need to work on them. But to suddenly say the answer is God--it's that that seems to me to close off the discussion.

Quote from: "Knight"
The idea that there is no reason to believe in God is itself a silly statement because you're once again generalizing the usage of the word "God" to mean a certain thing--that is, what you take it to mean.  Like I said, people tend to use the word to mean different things, so to not recognize that fact would be silly.


It's not very productive to just whore words around as you please.

Quote from: "Knight"
There are actually plenty of reasons to believe in God: existence itself, complexity of the human body, the beauty of nature, etc.


Believing in a god based on these things would be high foolery, scientific ignorance, and shortsightedness.

God does not exist
« Reply #199 on: November 12, 2006, 11:42:35 AM »
Unlike FE or RE god can not be disproved. So really theres no point in talking about it. Not that you'll listen.
f everything that stands the end.

God does not exist
« Reply #200 on: November 12, 2006, 11:44:11 AM »
hmm wow, that seems like something I've said a few times already, they really do not listen.
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

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Nomad

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God does not exist
« Reply #201 on: November 12, 2006, 11:45:12 AM »
The concept of a creator cannot be disproven, but human made gods all can.
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God does not exist
« Reply #202 on: November 12, 2006, 11:47:46 AM »
not necesarily, it could easily be said that writers of the bible were exagerating God's interaction in human affairs, or that he simply has forsaken us, prooving or disproving is not entirely possible (using the example of a Judeo-Christian God, obviously
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

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God does not exist
« Reply #203 on: November 12, 2006, 11:49:15 AM »
Quote from: "CrimsonKing"
hmm wow, that seems like something I've said a few times already, they really do not listen.


Good to see I'm not the only (kinda) sane one on this thread. BTW Dark Tower=Greatest book series of time.
f everything that stands the end.

God does not exist
« Reply #204 on: November 12, 2006, 11:56:59 AM »
i do not believe in god because i think its stupid and because god is stupid and because its pretty stupid to belive in god because he is stupid and it is stupi to belive in something whose existance is highly improbable and stupid because it is a spawn from the fantasies of some guy from the middle east

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Nomad

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God does not exist
« Reply #205 on: November 12, 2006, 11:57:08 AM »
Quote from: "CrimsonKing"
not necesarily, it could easily be said that writers of the bible were exagerating God's interaction in human affairs, or that he simply has forsaken us, prooving or disproving is not entirely possible (using the example of a Judeo-Christian God, obviously


By saying that the authors of the Bible are not God himself pretty much debunks the religion singlehandedly, since the Bible claims itself being the word of God.  ;)
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God does not exist
« Reply #206 on: November 12, 2006, 11:58:21 AM »
Only if you are a very strict and devout christian/catholic, I mean come now, not everyone believes everything a religion tells them to.
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

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God does not exist
« Reply #207 on: November 12, 2006, 11:58:26 AM »
Quote from: "Thrudgie"
i do not believe in god because i think its stupid and because god is stupid and because its pretty stupid to belive in god because he is stupid and it is stupi to belive in something whose existance is highly improbable and stupid because it is a spawn from the fantasies of some guy from the middle east
 

God is stupid? When did he take a IQ test?
f everything that stands the end.

God does not exist
« Reply #208 on: November 12, 2006, 11:59:44 AM »
I wonder what IQ omniscient is?
he man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

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God does not exist
« Reply #209 on: November 12, 2006, 12:00:16 PM »
yes he is stupid because he is the creation of a madmans fatasies and the madman is the offspring of the worms from the center of the universe. i am the master, therefor i control the worms.