Circumnavigation

Quote from: Scintific Method on January 02, 2014, 01:48:16 PM

Quote from: jroa on January 02, 2014, 01:38:41 PM

If a plane was flying exactly east or west anywhere besides on the equator, would the plane not be turning if it was on a sphere?

If it were following a line of latitude, yes. Would the slight turn be noticeable? That depends on which line of latitude it's following. Following 1°N, probably not, but following 89°N, most definitely!

I agree with you, Scintific, for the first time that I can remember.  Now, would the same thing happen on a flat Earth, aside from the equator part?

Cheers! On a flat earth, it would depend which model you subscribe to. In the mono-polar model, following a line of latitude east would always be a left turn, and the further south you went, the more noticeable the discrepancy would become. The rate of turn would be minimal, but this very fact would be the giveaway that something was wrong, because the rate should increase the further south you went, as well as being to the right. Did you follow that okay? Assuming you did, I'll move on to the bi-polar model.

For the bi-polar model, the direction and rate would be close enough to correct to go unnoticed, but following the equator (or attempting to fly YSSY to KLAX via the Pacific, as happens every day) would land you in serious trouble.

And what about 179 degrees south?  On monopole FE no, on RE you would most likely notice it.

What the heck is 179 degrees south?  Is that a real thing, or are you just making up numbers?

Cheers! On a flat earth, it would depend which model you subscribe to. In the mono-polar model, following a line of latitude east would always be a left turn, and the further south you went, the more noticeable the discrepancy would become. The rate of turn would be minimal, but this very fact would be the giveaway that something was wrong, because the rate should increase the further south you went, as well as being to the right. Did you follow that okay? Assuming you did, I'll move on to the bi-polar model.

Wait, on a flat Earth, the rate of turn would become less the further south you went, assuming the mono-pole model. 

Quote from: Scintific Method on January 02, 2014, 01:48:16 PM

Quote from: jroa on January 02, 2014, 01:38:41 PM

If a plane was flying exactly east or west anywhere besides on the equator, would the plane not be turning if it was on a sphere?

If it were following a line of latitude, yes. Would the slight turn be noticeable? That depends on which line of latitude it's following. Following 1°N, probably not, but following 89°N, most definitely!

And what about 179 degrees south?  On monopole FE no, on RE you would most likely notice it.

WTF?! Never heard of 179°S! However, 89°S would be equivalent to 89°N on RE, and 90°S would be a single point, unlike the mono-pole model where it would be a line some 75,400 miles long!

Quote from: Scintific Method on January 02, 2014, 01:58:41 PM

Cheers! On a flat earth, it would depend which model you subscribe to. In the mono-polar model, following a line of latitude east would always be a left turn, and the further south you went, the more noticeable the discrepancy would become. The rate of turn would be minimal, but this very fact would be the giveaway that something was wrong, because the rate should increase the further south you went, as well as being to the right. Did you follow that okay? Assuming you did, I'll move on to the bi-polar model.

Wait, on a flat Earth, the rate of turn would become less the further south you went, assuming the mono-pole model.

Perhaps I was a little unclear. On a flat mono-pole earth, the rate would decrease the further south you went, which would be in opposition to what would happen on a round earth, where the rate would decrease to the equator, where it becomes zero, then increase to the right (sticking with my previous scenario of following a line of latitude east) as you continue south. That's the discrepancy I was referring to. For example, flying from Sydney to Perth on a flat mono-pole earth would be a very slight right turn (traveling west now), but on a round earth would be a more pronounced left turn. In reality of course, this flight follows a great circle, which takes you over Adelaide, waaay south of what would be the ideal path on a flat mono-pole earth!

Quote from: BJ1234 on January 02, 2014, 01:52:54 PM

And what about 179 degrees south?  On monopole FE no, on RE you would most likely notice it.

What the heck is 179 degrees south?  Is that a real thing, or are you just making up numbers?

Quote from: BJ1234 on January 02, 2014, 01:52:54 PM

Quote from: Scintific Method on January 02, 2014, 01:48:16 PM

Quote from: jroa on January 02, 2014, 01:38:41 PM

If a plane was flying exactly east or west anywhere besides on the equator, would the plane not be turning if it was on a sphere?

If it were following a line of latitude, yes. Would the slight turn be noticeable? That depends on which line of latitude it's following. Following 1°N, probably not, but following 89°N, most definitely!

And what about 179 degrees south?  On monopole FE no, on RE you would most likely notice it.

WTF?! Never heard of 179°S! However, 89°S would be equivalent to 89°N on RE, and 90°S would be a single point, unlike the mono-pole model where it would be a line some 75,400 miles long!

Sorry, my bad,  Should have been 89 degrees south.
Was thinking half a circle was 180 degrees.  The equator at 0 slipped my mind.

Sorry, my bad,  Should have been 89 degrees south.
Was thinking half a circle was 180 degrees.  The equator at 0 slipped my mind.

No drama, I got your meaning! And I've done the same thing myself at times.

Ok, so now we just need to figure out if a person flying a plane at 80 degrees south can notice more turn than one at, say 45 degrees south, when flying east or west.  This should be easy for Rounders to prove. 

Ok, so now we just need to figure out if a person flying a plane at 80 degrees south can notice more turn than one at, say 45 degrees south, when flying east or west.  This should be easy for Rounders to prove.

Answer is yes as its a smaller diameter circle.

Quote from: jroa on January 02, 2014, 02:36:50 PM

Ok, so now we just need to figure out if a person flying a plane at 80 degrees south can notice more turn than one at, say 45 degrees south, when flying east or west.  This should be easy for Rounders to prove.

Answer is yes as its a smaller diameter circle.

Great, now please provide evidence.

Quote from: sceptimatic on January 02, 2014, 04:27:18 AM

Quote from: inquisitive on January 02, 2014, 03:46:41 AM

Quote from: jroa on January 02, 2014, 03:05:13 AM

The title of this thread is Circumnavigation.  You can not circumnavigate on a round or flat Earth by going on a straight line.

If you travel on the equator you will travelling in a straight line and returning to where you started.  Similarly going south from the North Pole.

On your fake globe, you could not travel in a straight line along any part of the earth, unless you want to fly off into your so called space.
You would have to follow the CURVE, meaning you would be turning and you don't notice this, do you? So why would you notice a turn on a circle as big as the earth is?

Clearly a downward curve, about 4" for every mile.  Not noticable.

The downward slope is 8" in the first mile, and progressively drops more in each mile after that.
Read and learn.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za05.htm

HIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII!

I am new, and I have many questions, but my big one is circumnavigation: three questions.

1: Why wouldn't I notice turning to circumnavigate? I was always told, if you flew in a straight line, you would eventually get back to where you were. Why wouldn't I notice turning?

2: What if I flew straight? What would happen?!

3: This is kind of a joke... Did Amelia Earhart fall off?

1: Because the Earth is Flat (And Interconnected And always has an upward 33% Curve).
2: Depends where you where heading.
3: Who fell off what?

I am new, and I have many questions, but my big one is circumnavigation: three questions.

1: Why wouldn't I notice turning to circumnavigate? I was always told, if you flew in a straight line, you would eventually get back to where you were. Why wouldn't I notice turning?

2: What if I flew straight? What would happen?!

1:  When a plane or ship travels from point A to point B on a globe (such as the earth) they describe a straight line.  They thoretically travel on what's known as a "vertical curve" (constant altitude) but viewed from directly overhead they travel a dead straight line.  Because of this simple fact of geometry, the plane or ship never has to theoretically "turn" as such—other than correcting for cross-winds or current drift.  The path is called the arc of a "great circle",


2:  If you were to continue flying in a straight line, theoretically you'd end up back where you started from.

Ships and planes do travel in a straight line.

Contradicts :

They travel on a path known as a "vertical curve".

There are absolutely no straight lines on a spheroid.
Brush up on your non-euclidean geometry.

Planes always travel in dead straight lines from point A to point B.

See the above.

Quote from: ausGeoff on January 02, 2014, 11:49:24 AM

Ships and planes do travel in a straight line.

Contradicts :

Quote from: ausGeoff on January 02, 2014, 11:49:24 AM

They travel on a path known as a "vertical curve".

There are absolutely no straight lines on a spheroid.
Brush up on your non-euclidean geometry.

Quote from: ausGeoff on January 02, 2014, 01:18:18 PM

Planes always travel in dead straight lines from point A to point B.

See the above.

I had no trouble understanding what he actually means.

Quote from: th3rm0m3t3r0 on January 04, 2014, 11:04:07 AM

Quote from: ausGeoff on January 02, 2014, 11:49:24 AM

Ships and planes do travel in a straight line.

Contradicts :

Quote from: ausGeoff on January 02, 2014, 11:49:24 AM

They travel on a path known as a "vertical curve".

There are absolutely no straight lines on a spheroid.
Brush up on your non-euclidean geometry.

Quote from: ausGeoff on January 02, 2014, 01:18:18 PM

Planes always travel in dead straight lines from point A to point B.

See the above.

I had no trouble understanding what he actually means.

I'm just being an asshole. 

There are absolutely no straight lines on a spheroid.

Brush up on your non-euclidean geometry.

You obviously have only a limited understanding of geometry of any kind.  When viewed for directly above—as I've already said—the equator, and all other great circles appear as geometrically straight lines.  They describe what's called a vertical curve.  Which is why a right-triangle drawn on the surface of a sphere contains 270º rather than 180º as on a flat plane.

The planar ecliptic of any great circle passes though the centre of its defining sphere.  You don't seem to understand what a great circle is?  Any circumferential line drawn on any sphere is an example.

Hence planes and ships travel in dead straight lines, with no need for yaw and no need for any constant left- or right-hand "turning".

As an example, if you were to fly along the equator in Africa between Somalia and Gabon, you'd fly in a dead straight line with a bearing of -90º or +90º.

Check out this diagram for an explanation:


 

I believe th3rm0m3t3r0 is simply being pedantic about the definition of "dead straight line". You and I know that, in this context at least, it means "no left-right deviation only", whereas th3rm0m3t3r0 is interpreting it as "no left-right OR up-down deviation". Some people can be a pain like that.

I believe th3rm0m3t3r0 is simply being pedantic about the definition of "dead straight line". You and I know that, in this context at least, it means "no left-right deviation only", whereas th3rm0m3t3r0 is interpreting it as "no left-right OR up-down deviation". Some people can be a pain like that.

Like I said, I just felt like being an asshole.
 

How can u guys not understand this? If the plane goes from 1 point around the world back to that point, all the plane has to do is keep the altitude the same height and it goes entirely straight. How is anyone even debating this? Take a globe, put a tiny toy plane on a toothpick. Now go around in a circle from one point all the way around the globe back to the point. The plane on the toothpick did not turn one time, it simply maintained same distance from the ground. Pilots do this all day long everyday everywhere. Doesn't this prove the Earth is round?

How can u guys not understand this? If the plane goes from 1 point around the world back to that point, all the plane has to do is keep the altitude the same height and it goes entirely straight. How is anyone even debating this? Take a globe, put a tiny toy plane on a toothpick. Now go around in a circle from one point all the way around the globe back to the point. The plane on the toothpick did not turn one time, it simply maintained same distance from the ground. Pilots do this all day long everyday everywhere. Doesn't this prove the Earth is round?

No. Read the FAQ.
I was just being stubborn about the definition of straight.
There exists no straight lines on a sphere.
For all intents and purposes relative to humans on Earth, there are straight lines.

My god! I can't believe this! The plane goes straight and does not need to steer if you maintain altitude to the ground. Like clouds do. Clouds do not drift off to space according to basic physics and earth science. 30,000 feet above China then 30,000 feet above America then 30,000 feet above Europe, then 30,000 feet above China then 30,000 feet above America, without turning the plane, only paying attention to altitude will do a complete circle. This proves the Earth is round. If it were flat, you would need to steer the plane or you would go off of the world. If you still can't understand this, then there is no other way to explain it to you.

We are not talking about altitude.  If you were circumnavigating the globe very close to the pole, would you not be walking in a circle?

Picture an actual north pole sticking out of the ground.  If you face the pole, you are facing north.  If your back is to the pole, you are facing south.  If the pole is in line with one shoulder or the other, you will be facing either east or west. 

If you walk around that pole, you would be circumnavigating the Earth, and doing it while turning in a circle.  This is really not a very hard concept to understand and I don't know why you are making it hard.  Circumnavigation around a pole is turning unless you are on a great circle. 

My god! I can't believe this! The plane goes straight and does not need to steer if you maintain altitude to the ground. Like clouds do. Clouds do not drift off to space according to basic physics and earth science. 30,000 feet above China then 30,000 feet above America then 30,000 feet above Europe, then 30,000 feet above China then 30,000 feet above America, without turning the plane, only paying attention to altitude will do a complete circle. This proves the Earth is round. If it were flat, you would need to steer the plane or you would go off of the world. If you still can't understand this, then there is no other way to explain it to you.

It is true even if the plane flew from any direction in a straight line but their world is flat. They can't fit that idea to their FE model.

Theoretically there can only be a north and south. East and west do not actually exist. Taking the centre of Earth's circle as the north pole and standing with your back to it facing south, you can edge around the pole shuffling your back against it and you will always be facing south.

Theoretically there can only be a north and south. East and west do not actually exist. Taking the centre of Earth's circle as the north pole and standing with your back to it facing south, you can edge around the pole shuffling your back against it and you will always be facing south.

East or West is relative to below the North pole or above the South pole but the North pole and South pole does exist in reality

Theoretically there can only be a north and south. East and west do not actually exist.

So East and West can't exist in theory but they can in practice?

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 12, 2014, 07:05:32 AM

Theoretically there can only be a north and south. East and west do not actually exist. Taking the centre of Earth's circle as the north pole and standing with your back to it facing south, you can edge around the pole shuffling your back against it and you will always be facing south.

East or West is relative to below the North pole or above the South pole but the North pole and South pole does exist in reality

I'm talking about a flat Earth. We know a compass has east and west on it but thoretically they do not exist as points. Basically what has been said is correct as in, if you follow a compass east or west, you simply go around in a circle because you cannot hit south or north by following this path.

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 12, 2014, 07:05:32 AM

Theoretically there can only be a north and south. East and west do not actually exist.

So East and West can't exist in theory but they can in practice?

They exist on a man made compass, that's it. Of course, we have to take into account the circle of Earth, not just saying "oh I'll go east and land on an island." You can still get your bearings from it to whatever land mass is within that circle.

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on March 12, 2014, 07:52:16 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 12, 2014, 07:05:32 AM

Theoretically there can only be a north and south. East and west do not actually exist.

So East and West can't exist in theory but they can in practice?

They exist on a man made compass, that's it. Of course, we have to take into account the circle of Earth, not just saying "oh I'll go east and land on an island." You can still get your bearings from it to whatever land mass is within that circle.

A compass has meaning if you have a map and you know roughly know where you are. Compass are rarely used not GPS is the way to go. You can use a compass as a backup.