Has anyone on this forum... 2.0

I can't say I have ever seen Dawkins get involved in a debate with a Christian apologist. Do you have one you are thinking of?  I enjoyed the debate between Hitchens and Dr. Craig, different styles of reasoning again, but Hitchens repeatedly refused to take up the Kalam CA, because it was an impossible question to answer. I would love to see footage of Dawkins refuting the CA. I know Dawkins cancelled a debate with Dr. Craig in what can only be described as a snit. Too bad.

I thought Hitchens did not even really try to defend atheism, and was very clear that he felt the truth of either proposition was unprovable and therefore pointless. He instead tried to highlight what he thought was the failings of religion. But then Hitchens preaches to the choir when speaking about religion (sorry for the mixed metaphor), he was a much better advocate for Free Speech. Dr. Craig is very talented, but I always found the "Divine Command" argument to be very... hollow, even if it were cohesive.

I imagine that is a personal ethical judgement rather than anything substantive, but then I do not have any education in philosophy really.

Thanks for the tip in Dr. Lennox.

Quote from: Rama Set on April 17, 2013, 08:19:48 PM

I thought Hitchens did not even really try to defend atheism, and was very clear that he felt the truth of either proposition was unprovable and therefore pointless. He instead tried to highlight what he thought was the failings of religion. But then Hitchens preaches to the choir when speaking about religion (sorry for the mixed metaphor), he was a much better advocate for Free Speech. Dr. Craig is very talented, but I always found the "Divine Command" argument to be very... hollow, even if it were cohesive.

Which one are you referring to? The phrase "divine command" generally refers to a theory of ethics, and I'm pretty sure that debate was on the existence of God.

Quote

I imagine that is a personal ethical judgement rather than anything substantive, but then I do not have any education in philosophy really.

Where do you stand religiously? Obviously, I'm a Christian with interests in philosophy, specifically philosophy of religion.

Quote

Thanks for the tip in Dr. Lennox.

I don't really know much about him, but I like how sincere he is

Quote from: Arctangent on April 17, 2013, 08:29:06 PM

Quote from: Rama Set on April 17, 2013, 08:19:48 PM

I thought Hitchens did not even really try to defend atheism, and was very clear that he felt the truth of either proposition was unprovable and therefore pointless. He instead tried to highlight what he thought was the failings of religion. But then Hitchens preaches to the choir when speaking about religion (sorry for the mixed metaphor), he was a much better advocate for Free Speech. Dr. Craig is very talented, but I always found the "Divine Command" argument to be very... hollow, even if it were cohesive.

Which one are you referring to? The phrase "divine command" generally refers to a theory of ethics, and I'm pretty sure that debate was on the existence of God.

Quote

I imagine that is a personal ethical judgement rather than anything substantive, but then I do not have any education in philosophy really.

Where do you stand religiously? Obviously, I'm a Christian with interests in philosophy, specifically philosophy of religion.

Quote

Thanks for the tip in Dr. Lennox.

I don't really know much about him, but I like how sincere he is

Dr. Craig referred to his "Divine Command" theory as the idea that God is the source of all morality, so if God commands something like the rape and murder of the Hebrews enemies, then by his essential moral nature the command takes on moral force. I was raised Catholic, and am Agnostic, leaning towards atheist.

Quote from: Rama Set on April 18, 2013, 04:33:59 AM

Quote from: Arctangent on April 17, 2013, 08:29:06 PM

Quote from: Rama Set on April 17, 2013, 08:19:48 PM

I thought Hitchens did not even really try to defend atheism, and was very clear that he felt the truth of either proposition was unprovable and therefore pointless. He instead tried to highlight what he thought was the failings of religion. But then Hitchens preaches to the choir when speaking about religion (sorry for the mixed metaphor), he was a much better advocate for Free Speech. Dr. Craig is very talented, but I always found the "Divine Command" argument to be very... hollow, even if it were cohesive.

Which one are you referring to? The phrase "divine command" generally refers to a theory of ethics, and I'm pretty sure that debate was on the existence of God.

Quote

I imagine that is a personal ethical judgement rather than anything substantive, but then I do not have any education in philosophy really.

Where do you stand religiously? Obviously, I'm a Christian with interests in philosophy, specifically philosophy of religion.

Quote

Thanks for the tip in Dr. Lennox.

I don't really know much about him, but I like how sincere he is

Dr. Craig referred to his "Divine Command" theory as the idea that God is the source of all morality, so if God commands something like the rape and murder of the Hebrews enemies, then by his essential moral nature the command takes on moral force. I was raised Catholic, and am Agnostic, leaning towards atheist.

Oh, yeah, that's the divine command theory of ethics. There's a few problems with it, obviously... personally, I subscribe to St. Thomas's understanding of Law -- eternal law, revealed law, natural law, and human law.

Quote from: sandmanMike on April 17, 2013, 02:49:36 PM

3.  Jumping only show's a presence of something, how do you know it's this thing called UA doing it?

The concept of an upwardly accelerating earth wins on a matter of direct vs. indirect evidence. If you step off the edge of a chair you will see the earth rise upwards towards you. You do not see anything pulling you down.

This observation is direct evidence that the earth is rising upwards, and at the very most, merely indirect evidence that something is pulling you downwards.

Quote from: Arctangent on April 18, 2013, 04:48:45 AM

Quote from: Rama Set on April 18, 2013, 04:33:59 AM

Quote from: Arctangent on April 17, 2013, 08:29:06 PM

Quote from: Rama Set on April 17, 2013, 08:19:48 PM

I thought Hitchens did not even really try to defend atheism, and was very clear that he felt the truth of either proposition was unprovable and therefore pointless. He instead tried to highlight what he thought was the failings of religion. But then Hitchens preaches to the choir when speaking about religion (sorry for the mixed metaphor), he was a much better advocate for Free Speech. Dr. Craig is very talented, but I always found the "Divine Command" argument to be very... hollow, even if it were cohesive.

Which one are you referring to? The phrase "divine command" generally refers to a theory of ethics, and I'm pretty sure that debate was on the existence of God.

Quote

I imagine that is a personal ethical judgement rather than anything substantive, but then I do not have any education in philosophy really.

Where do you stand religiously? Obviously, I'm a Christian with interests in philosophy, specifically philosophy of religion.

Quote

Thanks for the tip in Dr. Lennox.

I don't really know much about him, but I like how sincere he is

Dr. Craig referred to his "Divine Command" theory as the idea that God is the source of all morality, so if God commands something like the rape and murder of the Hebrews enemies, then by his essential moral nature the command takes on moral force. I was raised Catholic, and am Agnostic, leaning towards atheist.

Oh, yeah, that's the divine command theory of ethics. There's a few problems with it, obviously... personally, I subscribe to St. Thomas's understanding of Law -- eternal law, revealed law, natural law, and human law.

Are you a theist or a deist?

Quote from: sandmanMike on April 17, 2013, 10:32:52 AM

Seen the ice wall with their own eyes?

Experienced the canopy?

Proven UA exists?

Used the FE map to travel from one contenent to another?

1.


So this is DEFINITELY, WITHOUT DOUBT, 100% the ice wall?
And YOU took this photograph?

Quote from: Rama Set on April 18, 2013, 05:34:26 AM

Quote from: Arctangent on April 18, 2013, 04:48:45 AM

Quote from: Rama Set on April 18, 2013, 04:33:59 AM

Quote from: Arctangent on April 17, 2013, 08:29:06 PM

Quote from: Rama Set on April 17, 2013, 08:19:48 PM

I thought Hitchens did not even really try to defend atheism, and was very clear that he felt the truth of either proposition was unprovable and therefore pointless. He instead tried to highlight what he thought was the failings of religion. But then Hitchens preaches to the choir when speaking about religion (sorry for the mixed metaphor), he was a much better advocate for Free Speech. Dr. Craig is very talented, but I always found the "Divine Command" argument to be very... hollow, even if it were cohesive.

Which one are you referring to? The phrase "divine command" generally refers to a theory of ethics, and I'm pretty sure that debate was on the existence of God.

Quote

I imagine that is a personal ethical judgement rather than anything substantive, but then I do not have any education in philosophy really.

Where do you stand religiously? Obviously, I'm a Christian with interests in philosophy, specifically philosophy of religion.

Quote

Thanks for the tip in Dr. Lennox.

I don't really know much about him, but I like how sincere he is

Dr. Craig referred to his "Divine Command" theory as the idea that God is the source of all morality, so if God commands something like the rape and murder of the Hebrews enemies, then by his essential moral nature the command takes on moral force. I was raised Catholic, and am Agnostic, leaning towards atheist.

Oh, yeah, that's the divine command theory of ethics. There's a few problems with it, obviously... personally, I subscribe to St. Thomas's understanding of Law -- eternal law, revealed law, natural law, and human law.

Are you a theist or a deist?

That's a strange dichotomy, as deism is a type of theism. Deism is merely theism which rejects the revealed theology common in other theistic positions. Personally, I'm a Christian, so I'm a theist who does, indeed hold to divine Revelation as a source of religion, particularly the resurrection of Christ.

Quote from: Arctangent on April 17, 2013, 05:02:59 PM

Quote from: Rama Set on April 17, 2013, 05:00:25 PM

True, but it does mean you can't tell the difference by looking at it.

Are we not justified in believing it is the way it seems?

Let me know how this works out for you when you run into Lola at the bar. In other words, is that champagne you're drinking or just cherry cola?

Quote from: sandmanMike on April 17, 2013, 10:32:52 AM

Seen the ice wall with their own eyes?

Experienced the canopy?

Proven UA exists?

Used the FE map to travel from one contenent to another?

1.


So this is DEFINITELY, WITHOUT DOUBT, 100% the ice wall?
And YOU took this photograph?

I think you'll find they are not ice-bergs (detached floating lumps of ice) but they are actually part of the Antarctic ice shelf. Now, if that shelf wrapped around the earth in a circle around us, instead of around itself as an island, that would make it an ice-wall. As FE says this is the case, there must be an ice-wall.
Nobody says they are ice-bergs.

I think you'll find they are not ice-bergs (detached floating lumps of ice) but they are actually part of the Antarctic ice shelf. Now, if that shelf wrapped around the earth in a circle around us, instead of around itself as an island, that would make it an ice-wall. As FE says this is the case, there must be an ice-wall.
Nobody says they are ice-bergs.

If you want to argue that the antarctic coast is not surrounded by ice shelves, the onus is on you, I'm afraid.

If you want to argue that the antarctic coast is not surrounded by ice shelves, the onus is on you, I'm afraid.

If you step off the edge of a chair you will see the earth rise upwards towards you. You do not see anything pulling you down.

This observation is direct evidence that the earth is rising upwards, and at the very most, merely indirect evidence that something is pulling you downwards.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on April 17, 2013, 02:52:26 PM

If you step off the edge of a chair you will see the earth rise upwards towards you. You do not see anything pulling you down.

This observation is direct evidence that the earth is rising upwards, and at the very most, merely indirect evidence that something is pulling you downwards.

If you step off the edge of a chair you will see yourself fall down towards the earth. You do not see anything pushing the earth up.

This observation is direct evidence that you are being pulled downwards, and at the very most, merely indirect evidence that something is pushing the earth up.