Gravity and Friction

I know there is some clever minded people on this site, even some that believe the earth is spinning, yet to actually go along with and believe that air can rotate with a solid ball, all the way to the so called edge of space really makes me wonder just how badly this has been whipped into peoples minds.
I'm serious. It's got to the point of scary that people can believe in such bull crap.
The OP asked you to use logic. I agree with him, so try using it instead of bringing up silly figures that show nothing when pertaining to stuff like this.

Somebody said the rotational speed(1700kmh!) is low, so the centrifugal force is low. So lets add another 100.000kmh(revolving speed, following the Sun). Is it still low?

Some others agreed that Air does not have to move as soldiers in line,but randomly as we see with winds. But who says that this crazy friction with the Earth will make the Air rotate in one direction? The most possible fact is to instantly shoot the Air away, since theres no roof.

The other problem with their scary ghost winds, is that I can feel breezes going opposite direction than the supposed eastward Air rotation. How could these Air molecules managed to resist a 101.700 kmh eastward Earth rotation, moving westward?

Lol.

Somebody said the rotational speed(1700kmh!) is low, so the centrifugal force is low. So lets add another 100.000kmh(revolving speed, following the Sun). Is it still low?

The speed isn't low, it's the rotational speed that's low. The formula for how much centripetal acceleration we feel is

a = v²/r

And even though the velocity of the Earth rotating around the sun is much higher than the equatorial speed, the radius (distance from Earth to sun) is also much larger, hence the centripetal acceleration isn't large.

True Myth, you often mention the importance of using logic, yet these simple ideas that even a child could comprehend slip by you.
Maybe logic isn't such a great substitute for understanding your physics after all?

Some others agreed that Air does not have to move as soldiers in line,but randomly as we see with winds. But who says that this crazy friction with the Earth will make the Air rotate in one direction? The most possible fact is to instantly shoot the Air away, since theres no roof.

Shoot the air away? Use that simple formula I provided above to find the centripetal acceleration an object at the equator experiences outwards towards space, then consider the 9.8m/s² acceleration of gravity down towards the ground.

The other problem with their scary ghost winds, is that I can feel breezes going opposite direction than the supposed eastward Air rotation. How could these Air molecules managed to resist a 101.700 kmh eastward Earth rotation, moving westward?

A person walks towards the back of a train travelling at 200km/h, he just resisted a 200km/h motion?

Lol.

The only thing worth laughing about here is your lack of knowledge.

Somebody said the rotational speed(1700kmh!) is low, so the centrifugal force is low. So lets add another 100.000kmh(revolving speed, following the Sun). Is it still low?

Some others agreed that Air does not have to move as soldiers in line,but randomly as we see with winds. But who says that this crazy friction with the Earth will make the Air rotate in one direction? The most possible fact is to instantly shoot the Air away, since theres no roof.

The other problem with their scary ghost winds, is that I can feel breezes going opposite direction than the supposed eastward Air rotation. How could these Air molecules managed to resist a 101.700 kmh eastward Earth rotation, moving westward?

Saying the rotational speed is low means that the earth rotates slowly, i.e. 24 hours for a revolution is a long time. The 1700 km/h is not the rotational speed, it's the linear speed at the equator. Adding the speed at which we orbit the sun really doesn't add anything to this problem, gravity keeps it all together. Similarly, gravity keeps the air from shooting away. It's the same as how the earth stays in orbit around the sun. There is a balance between the 'centrifugal force' of orbit and the centripetal force of orbit, so that earth doesn't fly away from the sun. If these were imbalanced, then the orbit would inevitably increase or decrease until balance was achieved. You can think of air as being in orbit around the sun.

Feeling a 50km/h wind in the opposite direction to the rotation of the earth just means the the air is moving at 1650 km/h instead of 1700. No big deal. Yes, it would have trouble resisting a 1700 km/h wind and actually going in the opposite direction, that is the whole point of all our replies. Friction. You've finally accepted it yourself. The air all moves together (roughly) because it would have to resist a lot not to. Even if all the air was still, it would have to resist the ground and mountains pushing it, and that would not be easy. And if you're still convinced that the friction is not strong enough, consider the fact that the earth had millions of years to speed the atmosphere up before life.

Really, nothing you are saying poses any difficulty or makes RET seem surprising. It's you that is having trouble grasping physics.

And if you're still convinced that the friction is not strong enough, consider the fact that the earth had millions of years to speed the atmosphere up before life.

That's one way of looking at it, but the Earth probably formed from swirling dust gathering together, which means the atmosphere also would have been rotating with it from the time of its creation.

Who knows what Newton is. Who knows what anyone is of those times.

What Newton is? Newton was a person, just like you and me, except he was much smarter than both of us. It's merely as a sign of respect to refer to the laws he published as Newton's 3 laws of motion.
Are you sceptical of Pythagoras too? He proved the formula a²+b²=c² for the sides of a right triangle. Maybe we shouldn't believe this either?

We can only go on what they tell us about this person and that person can't we. Let's face it. If they can lie to us about history as close as yesterday, they can certainly make up a lot of crap from past history can't they.

For what reason would anyone lie about that? But regardless, whether it was Newton or the combined knowledge of all the world's scientists of the time, the 3 laws of motion are there, and they're correct.

I find it rather funny how people rely on people from hundreds and hundreds of years ago and stick to what they supposedly did and said when the technology we have today should render those people as simply a passing mention but it seems that even today, they are relied upon to back up stuff.

My scepticism and sheer doubt over a lot of history lurks within me.

You're a dimwit

Quote from: alexhall on April 14, 2013, 05:14:33 AM

And if you're still convinced that the friction is not strong enough, consider the fact that the earth had millions of years to speed the atmosphere up before life.

That's one way of looking at it, but the Earth probably formed from swirling dust gathering together, which means the atmosphere also would have been rotating with it from the time of its creation.

True Myth, Sceptimatic, and a few others, all seem to think for RET that Earth was just 'there' rotating, and suddenly an atmosphere was on it that had to 'catch up' with the rotation.

Last I read, the atmosphere built up slowly out of volcanoes, icy meteorites, etc, and therefore would have little trouble rotating with the earth over time.

Even if he hadn't read it anywhere, it's a perfectly reasonable hypothesis. Certainly much more reasonable than the UA or bendy light. The earth is thought to have formed gradually, in a sense. Most of the water came from icy meteorites, I watched a documentary on that. Some of the atmosphere would have been around from the beginning, already rotating with the earth since it was rotating within the dust cloud, as Puttah said. Volcanoes obviously produce gases from below the crust. Really nothing weird is being stated here. Even without evidence, there's no reason to be seriously skeptical of such an idea. Compare to the idea of the atmosphere just appearing. That would be bloody weird.

In any case, one can easily just look this kind of thing up online. This whole thread is a failure of FEers to do that. The OP's question is answered by google. Regarding the formation of the atmosphere:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Earth#Oceans_and_atmosphere

I havent read anything about Earth's acceleration belief by Flat Earth society, so I cant judge.

I also dont care for mathematical formulas. I simply asked logic.

A simple logical question for air rotation believers. Can a molecule of the Air move simultaneously at opposite directions? Can it both move eastwardly at 1700kmh and westwardly(a breeze) at (lets say) 20kmh?

Or did the (invisible unexperienced) eastwardly Air of 1700kmh was decelerated by a super unknown force that made the air slow down and even move the opposite direction?  And how as the eastwardly Air of 17000kmh decelarates, people can not feel the difference in the supposed speeds between Earth and Air?

I also dont care for mathematical formulas. I simply asked logic.

Mathematical formulas enumerate logic. Logically, the centripetal force you'd feel doesn't necessarily have to be large if you are moving quickly because you could be going around a very large circle. This idea eluded you however, so I gave you the (quite simple) formula which describes it, yet I'm hazarding a guess that maths scares you, so you need to avoid it at all costs.

A simple logical question for air rotation believers. Can a molecule of the Air move simultaneously at opposite directions? Can it both move eastwardly at 1700kmh and westwardly(a breeze) at (lets say) 20kmh? Or did the (invisible unexperienced) eastwardly Air of 1700kmh was decelerated by a super unknown force that made the air slow down and even move the opposite direction?

Are these speeds relative to the Earth's rotating surface, or the core of the Earth's position, or the core of the sun's position? etc.

And how as the eastwardly Air of 17000kmh decelarates, people can not feel the difference in the supposed speeds between Earth and Air?

Yes, they can feel the difference. If the Earth's surface is moving at a speed of 1700km/h and the wind decelerates to a speed of 1690km/h, then people perceive that as a 10km/h wind in the direction going against Earth's rotation.

Puttah wrote:

Quote

Yes, they can feel the difference. If the Earth's surface is moving at a speed of 1700km/h and the wind decelerates to a speed of 1690km/h, then people perceive that as a 10km/h wind in the direction going against Earth's rotation.

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and should be a massive reason as to why you need to question what you have been intenseley taught.

This make perfect sense.  You are ignorant.

I pay 1.000.000.000 $ to a rotating Earth believer who can answer the following question:
How can the friction between a rotating Earth and the Air, would put the random molecules of the Air in order(close to each other) and line, following a constant frantic speed of 1030mph.

This makes me want to cry.

Puttah wrote:

Quote

Yes, they can feel the difference. If the Earth's surface is moving at a speed of 1700km/h and the wind decelerates to a speed of 1690km/h, then people perceive that as a 10km/h wind in the direction going against Earth's rotation.

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and should be a massive reason as to why you need to question what you have been intenseley taught.

It's equivalent to traffic moving at 60km/h, but one car decelerates to 50km/h. From the point of view of the traffic, the slower car is moving at 10km/h in the opposite direction. Now, please don't be a smart ass and tell us you know the car isn't moving backwards.

Puttah, and which is this dracula power that can decelerate Air and make it move even in different directions than the supposed rotating direction? And what about the Air molecules next (to the decelerated) that rotate with an udetected speed of 1700kmh? How are these not affected?

Quote from: Puttah on April 15, 2013, 07:07:56 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on April 15, 2013, 06:36:45 AM

Puttah wrote:

Quote

Yes, they can feel the difference. If the Earth's surface is moving at a speed of 1700km/h and the wind decelerates to a speed of 1690km/h, then people perceive that as a 10km/h wind in the direction going against Earth's rotation.

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and should be a massive reason as to why you need to question what you have been intenseley taught.

It's equivalent to traffic moving at 60km/h, but one car decelerates to 50km/h. From the point of view of the traffic, the slower car is moving at 10km/h in the opposite direction. Now, please don't be a smart ass and tell us you know the car isn't moving backwards.

You don't feel it though, do you?

Were talking about an undetected field of occult powers. Lol. It can stop the Air from running with 1700kmh and send it opposite direction, beating the supposed 1700kmh Earth rotating resistance.

One minute it takes millions of years for the air to rotate with the earth and the next minute, it can decelerate 10km/h and somehow create wind.
It's so ludicrous, I don't understand how people cannot see how silly it all is.

The deceleration was a hypothetical example.

You don't feel it though, do you?

Actually, you can feel it. We commonly call it "pressure", but we don't measure it in speed. Rather, we use a unit called Pascals (you might have heard of "psi" - which is an imperial equivalent).

If you want to know what it feels like to have billions of molecules hitting you from all angles, dive to the bottom of a deep pool with a mask on. At 10m depth (the bottom of a diving pool) you will feel a pressure of 100,000 pa, which is roughly 10 ton per square meter.

As a diver, I experience this quite often, and it's a really cool sensation (it can hurt of course, but by equalizing we alleviate the perceived pressure).

Quote from: Rama Set on April 15, 2013, 07:20:17 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on April 15, 2013, 07:19:06 AM

One minute it takes millions of years for the air to rotate with the earth and the next minute, it can decelerate 10km/h and somehow create wind.
It's so ludicrous, I don't understand how people cannot see how silly it all is.

The deceleration was a hypothetical example.

Oh, ok, so now it doesn't decelerate. So what happens then?

What the hell are you even talking about?  Who said that the atmosphere is decelerating outside of using that as a demonstration of the principle of relative motion?

Maybe so, in water. We are talking about the earths rotation and the wind somehow blowing in the opposite direction, say 10 mph or whatever.

I don't know if this has been addressed, but the reason for this is the sun. As sunlight collides with molecules in the atmosphere, they become "exited" (the molecules move faster in random directions - we call this heat), and begin to expand as they move away from one another, this creates a "migration" of air away from hot regions upwards. These migrations result in wind.

You can replicate this phenomenon by placing freezing and boiling water in 2 separate pots. If you place your hand 30cm above the hot pot, you will feel the warmth from the rising steam, but if you place it 30cm above the freezing water, you will not feel anything (because cold steam/air does not rise).

Puttah, and which is this dracula power that can decelerate Air and make it move even in different directions than the supposed rotating direction? And what about the Air molecules next (to the decelerated) that rotate with an udetected speed of 1700kmh? How are these not affected?

The supposed same dracula power that moves air around on a flat Earth...

And what is the stuff that's gripping the earth and moving with it at 1038 mph?

Having the pots on a moving train?

And what is the stuff that's gripping the earth and moving with it at 1038 mph?

I'm not sure what you mean.

Quote from: Puttah on April 15, 2013, 07:37:19 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on April 15, 2013, 07:35:36 AM

And what is the stuff that's gripping the earth and moving with it at 1038 mph?

Having the pots on a moving train?

What?

I'm with jason here, I'm probably misunderstanding you.

Ok:
After supposed millions of years, somehow the "air" or "atmosphere"...whichever way you want to see it...has gripped the solid floor of the earth and is now rotating with it at 1038 mph as we are told to believe.
In between this all happening, wind can somehow blow in the opposite direction to the air flow that is gripping the earth. What magic causes this and why do people who profess to be intelligent, actually hang on to this?

It hasn't gripped anything, it's air. Why would air "grip" something? Maybe you've misread something?

If it helps you to see the problem, consider this hypothetical question;

After supposed millions of years, somehow the "air" or "atmosphere"...whichever way you want to see it...has gripped the solid floor of the earth and is now accelerating upward with it at 9.8m/s/s as we are told to believe.
In between this all happening, wind can somehow blow in a sideways direction to the air flow that is gripping the earth. What magic causes this and why do people who profess to be intelligent, actually hang on to this?

I think you need to have a word with some rotating earth believers, because they don't think the same as you.

I'll be sure to bring it up at the next Stonemasons meeting.

After supposed millions of years, somehow the "air" or "atmosphere"...whichever way you want to see it...has gripped the solid floor of the earth and is now rotating with it at 1038 mph as we are told to believe.
In between this all happening, wind can somehow blow in the opposite direction to the air flow that is gripping the earth. What magic causes this and why do people who profess to be intelligent, actually hang on to this?

Newton's first law: An object in motion will stay in motion. The air doesn't continue to grip onto the Earth's surface, it's moving with the Earth and it'll keep going that way until a force acts on it to accelerate it in some other direction.

I'm not quite sure why you need an explanation of how wind works, whether the entire system is moving at 1000mph relative to something else, or not moving at all relative to it.

There is no problem as far as I'm concerned. It's a complete load of bull and people are made to believe it for whatever reasons they give for believing it.
This is one thing that convinces me 1 trillion percent + that the earth is not a rotating globe.

That wasn't RE, that was flat earth theory...

You just called FE theory a load of bull...

There is no problem as far as I'm concerned. It's a complete load of bull and people are made to believe it for whatever reasons they give for believing it.
This is one thing that convinces me 1 trillion percent + that the earth is not a rotating globe.

Out of all the things to be sceptical about, I'm actually quite amazed that this is the one that's tripping you up. I really can't quite understand why you're struggling to come to terms with it.

It baffles the hell out of me, why you buy into this crap, I'm being serious and I'm not actually having a direct dig, I'm just bemused as to how you and others go along with this.

What? It baffles you that I believe Newton's laws work?