How much RET explains

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alexhall

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How much RET explains
« on: April 05, 2013, 06:24:23 PM »
I'd like to paint a picture of the simplicity, elegance and explanatory power of the heliocentric, round earth model.

We need very few, simple starting ingredients for this model. Everything we see in the world is derived as a consequence, quite easily explained with simple reasoning, geometry, and known physics. There are no conspiracies, there's basically 100% consensus among scientists, and the world. To assume any of the hundred or so incomplete flat earth models is to assume so much more, leave so much unanswered, and come up with such weird, complex hypotheses without evidence that it's simply not likely.

Here are our ingredients:

1) Gravity. Approximately, it's just a force that acts between everything. All matter attracts all other matter in a very predictable, calculatable way. We can measure it in the laboratory (see the Cavendish experiment) and use it to make all sorts of mathematical predictions about the solar system, which are then confirmed, so to put it in doubt is really quite something. We also have a solid explanation for what causes it: general relativity, which is also heavily confirmed and seems to be generally accepted by flat earthers anyway.

2) Laws of angular momentum, uncontested.

3) A cloud of gas and dust. Basically, a clump of stuff. Really not much to ask for. Moreover, we have thousands of photos of such objects (nebulae) in the universe and plenty of good explanations for where they come from. You can even see them for yourself with an ordinary telescope, such as the Orion Nebula. We also have photos of nebula undergoing the processes I'm about to describe. I'm also going to assume that the cloud is rotating a little. Still not much to ask for. Why should it be perfectly still?

So, with those ingredients, here's a very rough and quick explanation of how the solar system forms:

Under gravity, the cloud starts to collapse inwards, simply because all the particles attracted to each other. The forces average out so that they generally move towards a central point, so the vast majority of stuff collects there. Such a large amount of matter makes for powerful gravity, heat and pressure, and a star forms: the sun. It is powered by nuclear fusion, a well known principle: it's how hydrogen bombs work, and how we might power the world someday. Meanwhile, some of the remaining stuff doesn't quite go into the centre, but it does collapse into a disk, spinning faster than the original cloud. The reason for this is related to angular momentum. Essentially, it's like spinning dough to flatten it into a pizza. It's really not surprising. Again, gravity causes tighter and tighter clumps, and these form planets and other stuff like asteroids, all orbiting around the sun. Some clumps also form moons orbiting around the planets. In these early stages, everything is still very crowded. One large body collides with the earth, tilting its axis, and the debris form our moon. Eventually, things calm down, although we still get hit by asteroids now and then. Gravity pulls large bodies into a spherical shape, although we can observe that for example the Earth isn't quite spherical because the spinning makes it bulge. The planets, moons and even the sun spin because they preserve the angular momentum of the original protoplanetary disk.

See how simple, coherent, and reasonable that was? See how little I had to invoke? The way the world is is easily explained, compared to wondering what the UA is or why the Earth is flat and so on. Now, just from this, we can explain all of the following observations. And by explain I often mean we can make detailed mathematical calculations and predictions that fit perfectly with the observations.

1. We know why the Sun is by far the largest object in our vicinity. We can tell how big it is based on its apparent size and the fact that we can quite easily measure its distance by several methods. Aristarchus of Samos first estimated the distance and size of the sun in 250 BC, and his result was vastly lower than the actual distance known today.
2. We know why the Sun is hot and bright.
3. We know why all the planets move in the same direction in the sky from night to night (that is, all the planets orbit the sun in the same direction).
4. We know why this is sometimes violated, i.e. apparent retrograde motion. It's simply because we aren't at the center: the planets orbit the sun. We can build a precise mathematical model of how they do so, and how we orbit as well. Newton did so based on his law of gravitation and showed that the orbits are ellipses with the sun at one of the foci. Einstein refined this with general relativity to explain why Mercury doesn't fit exactly. So we can calculate exactly how the planets and the earth orbit, predict how the path of the planets in the sky should look, and get it spot on every time. That's why we can have software that will tell you where the celestial bodies will be in the sky without having to check by observation. And we know exactly why this calculation works. Moreover, the same principles can be applied to the orbits of moons around other planets.
5. We know why we can see the planets and the sun spin, and again we know why they pretty much all spin in the same direction.
6. We know why the orbits all lie roughly within the same plane. This is actually quite something, if you think about it. Assume FET is correct. Why is it that, despite heliocentrism having no relation to reality, if you were to assume that it's true you suddenly get all the orbits lying in the same plane? Seems like a massive coincidence.
7. We were able to predict where Neptune would be in the night sky based on gravitational perturbations of the orbit of Uranus.
8. We know why the moon is bright (reflection) and why it and the planets have phases.
9. We know what causes lunar eclipses, and we can predict exactly when they will happen because we know when Earth will be in between the sun and the moon. Think about that. It's one thing to say you don't know what causes lunar eclipses. It's another thing to say that this unknown phenomena, whatever it is, happens to occur exactly when we would expect it to under RET. And here's another amazing coincidence if you assume FET: when you observe the height of a lunar eclipse, you can call a friend in a certain place on the earth and he can tell you that the sun is directly overhead. That place happens to be the exact location diametrically opposite you if you assume RET. Finally, look at photos of lunar eclipses where the moon at several times has been superimposed. That is quite clearly the shadow of something round.



10. We know what causes the sky to turn red as the sun sets. This also tells us why the lunar eclipse appears red: the atmosphere of the earth scatters sunlight so that red light remains, falling on the edges of the shadow on the moon.
11. We know why the sun sets in the first place. Or rather, we know why everything sets and rises, why the whole sky rotates around a celestial pole. If you were in a car and everything looked like it was moving past you, would you assume that everything really was moving past you, all in essentially perfect unison, or that you were moving? Please note that there are two things to explain as to why the sun (and everything) sets: why the sky seems to move, as I said, and also why there is a horizon to set below. Both are explained at the same time. Interesting extra piece of evidence for this: if you watch the sunset lying down, you can then stand up quickly and see it again.
12. We know what causes the tides: we can predict them based on the moon, and we can predict how they get stronger when the sun and moon align.
13. We know what causes the seasons: the difference in temperature, the lengths of days, the height of the sun, and the different seasons at different hemispheres, all follow very easily. We don't need to wonder why the radius of the sun's orbit changes over the year.
14. We know why hurricanes rotate, and why they rotate in different directions in different hemispheres: the Coriolis effect.
15. We know why the Bedford Level experiment generally confirms these days that the earth is curved. Oh, and if you trust the experiment from centuries ago as it was originally performed, it's pretty weird to then not trust later reproductions and all the other experimental evidence for a round earth that I'm mentioning. That is, you believe some ancient scientist got it right and was honest, but NASA has it wrong or are involved in a giant conspiracy theory? Or, you don't trust claims about traveling around the world because you haven't done that yourself, but you haven't done the Bedford experiment yourself yet you trust half of the results for that?
16. We know why the earth looks flat. It's big.
17. We know why it doesn't really, i.e. you can hold a ruler up to the horizon and see the curvature.
18. We know why ships and skyscrapers sink over the horizon as they do, and not shrink.
19. We understand Foucault's pendulum.
20. We know how we went to the moon.
21. We know why we can use satellites for all sorts of things, e.g: how Hubble produced photos of space that weren't possible at the time with land based telescopes, although today's land based telescopes see the same pictures. GPS. Google Earth.
22. This is why we have photos of a round earth. Thousands of photos. And films. Look at films taken from the ISS. There's really a huge quantity of stuff to fake.
23. We know why gravity isn't perfectly uniform.
24. We know how time zones work.
25. We know how it is possible to circumnavigate the globe in either direction, and why doing so will cause your calendar to be off by one day.
26. We know why we observe different sets of stars in different hemispheres, and why the stars in the skies change continuously as you travel, exactly as you would expect them to on a round earth, forming a celestial sphere. That is, we see similar stars in Australia and South Africa, because they're both close to the South Pole and so the skies in both places are close on the celestial sphere. On a Flat Earth, North Pole centered map they're much further apart and a similarity in night skies is really weird and unexpected.
27. We know why you can have triangles with angles that sum to more than 180 degrees.
28. We know why the Earth has a magnetic field, we know where its south pole is, and we know why the magnetic poles line up with the coldest areas. And we know why we have aurorae.
29. We know why there's an asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter.
30. We know why no one has ever been beyond Antarctica.
31. We know why we observe parallax of nearby stars, and we know why the timing of this matches up with the timing of the seasons.

No bendy light, dark energy, aetheric wind, anti-moons, massive conspiracies, nothing. All these observations follow simply and directly from the ingredients I gave, with just a little bit of well understood physics here and there. If the earth isn't round, then that is an INCREDIBLE coincidence. Meanwhile, flat earth theory requires numerous weird, ad hoc, complex, unsubstantiated, unexplained hypotheses to explain these observations. Like assuming that a mysterious force exists beneath the earth, forever pushing harder and harder to maintain an impression of constant acceleration for us as we approach the speed of light. And these are constantly thoroughly refuted on this forum by round earthers, or even rejected by fellow flat earthers, like bendy light. Why? Why do you insist on this inchorent theory which none of you can properly formulate or agree on, compared to a theory that we've known to be true for centuries which has mountains of evidence and is constantly used by science and industry every day? FET doesn't hold a candle to RET.

http://xkcd.com/258/

RE believers, please help me extend the list!
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 02:49:51 AM by alexhall »

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2013, 06:57:15 PM »
"17. We know why it doesn't really, i.e. you can hold a ruler up to the horizon and see the curvature."

Wait, you can do that?  I legitimately did not know that.  I live in the Willamette Valley, so that isn't going to happen for me anytime soon, but it sounds incredibly intriguing, and is the simplest potential proof of the roundness of the earth I've seen mentioned on this forum in my brief time here. 

Edit: Actually, this has been brought up on this forum before, back in 2008.  It did not receive any FE replies.

ATTN FLAT EARTHLINGS:
Do you live anywhere where you can plainly see the horizon?  Hold up a ruler, like point #17 says.  Do you see any curvature?

Edit 2: I actually don't mind the flat earth society never going away.  It provides the rest of the world an excellent example of the ways people can delude themselves.  Plus it's hilarious.  If I had money, I would donate just to be able to say "there's an actual flat earth soc"- …wait a second.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 07:07:18 PM by Levi Dettwyler »

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Rip Riley

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Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2013, 07:09:19 PM »
On the surface, it makes sense. It appears to explain everything pretty well. But..

There is no evidence the ocean is convex as it must be on a sphere. And I wonder why pictures of the spherical earth look like 3d models. They all look... off. There should be plenty of real images of the globe, with 15,000 satellites up there. Not just artist impressions and 3d models, all of which differ in colors, atmospheres, curvature, and even size of the continents.

Heliocentrism: non-religious, scientific fact with no hidden agenda.

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alexhall

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Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2013, 07:25:07 PM »
There is no evidence the ocean is convex as it must be on a sphere. And I wonder why pictures of the spherical earth look like 3d models. They all look... off. There should be plenty of real images of the globe, with 15,000 satellites up there. Not just artist impressions and 3d models, all of which differ in colors, atmospheres, curvature, and even size of the continents.

I mentioned this:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=iss+orbiting+the+earth&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=

Looks pretty real to me.

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2013, 07:47:32 PM »
Rip Riley, I just looked at your signature, and this is on NASA's page of the image: "This composite image uses a number of swaths of the Earth's surface taken on January 4, 2012."

Edit: speaking of films, there's also this: " class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 07:51:12 PM by Levi Dettwyler »

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Shmeggley

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Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2013, 10:49:11 PM »
Rip Riley, I just looked at your signature, and this is on NASA's page of the image: "This composite image uses a number of swaths of the Earth's surface taken on January 4, 2012."

Edit: speaking of films, there's also this: " class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

Just breathtaking. I have to thank the FES because I doubt I would have looked for this otherwise.  Reminds me what an incredible fortune it is to be alive in this age to see this even second hand. It's a little sad that flatsies close their eyes to this kind of wonder. I'm re-encouraged to keep trying to help shed what little light I can on the truth.
Giess what? I am a tin foil hat conspiracy lunatic who knows nothing... See what I'm getting at here?

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alexhall

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Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2013, 08:06:37 AM »
There is no evidence the ocean is convex as it must be on a sphere.

First of all, there's numbers 17 and 18. Secondly, so what? There's plenty of evidence for the theory as a whole. I don't have to confirm every single prediction you can think of, as long as I've provided good evidence for some predictions and none of them have been falsified.

And I wonder why pictures of the spherical earth look like 3d models. They all look... off. There should be plenty of real images of the globe, with 15,000 satellites up there. Not just artist impressions and 3d models, all of which differ in colors, atmospheres, curvature, and even size of the continents.

Many pictures might indeed be glossed up for presentation, or be 3d models entirely, to look good. Not many photos would be taken with the intention of proving RET right when the whole world accepts it. With the variety of perspectives, lighting conditions, equipment used, and desire to edit/enhance the photos, one expects them to look slightly different, except for the size of the continents. Can you give examples of that? I see your signature, but since both photos are stitched (the GE one especially), I expect some distortion.

Heliocentrism: non-religious, scientific fact with no hidden agenda.

Care to explain your heliocentric flat earth model?

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Rama Set

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Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2013, 10:37:53 AM »
I have a problem with 27.  As far as I can tell, this is just a prediction, which is to say that I have found no record of anyone traversing a triangle interior angles greater than 180 degrees. If a source for such a confirmation could be provided, I think it would be very helpful. Until then I do not think it belongs in the list.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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Thork

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2013, 11:25:38 AM »
"17. We know why it doesn't really, i.e. you can hold a ruler up to the horizon and see the curvature."
You picked out one of the more retarted observations. Of course the horizon isn't level. It wraps around you in all directions in a giant FLAT circle. For the horizon to be dead straight the earth would need to be infinite. It is not. The horizon wraps around you in a circle the same way as there is a curve at the edge of a dinner plate. The plate is still flat and not a ball. Only an earth stretching infinitely to the left and right would have a horizon that was flat.

This is a typical fail bought forward by those who cannot grasp the difference between curvature at the edge like a Frisbee, and ball like curvature caused by a spherical object.

Something to try at home. Get a dinner plate and look as low as you can over its surface. Then hold a ruler to it. It absolutely will not be level if you are so much as small amount above its surface. the same is true of a man standing on the earth. (Which is flat).

By the way, note how long it took to answer 17. This is why I'm not going to attempt to answer all 31 facile objections. I would recommend the OP picks the point they feel most important and makes the thread about that. No one is going to give up the time to patiently point out the obvious to all of those.

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2013, 12:05:11 PM »
You picked out one of the more retarted observations. Of course the horizon isn't level. It wraps around you in all directions in a giant FLAT circle. For the horizon to be dead straight the earth would need to be infinite. It is not. The horizon wraps around you in a circle the same way as there is a curve at the edge of a dinner plate. The plate is still flat and not a ball. Only an earth stretching infinitely to the left and right would have a horizon that was flat.

Actually, not really.  A round earth would be curved perpendicular to your line of sight, whereas the curvature you're talking about, given the extremely small scale of you and the extremely large scale of the earth, is essentially parallel to your line of sight, so you shouldn't see it.  A dinner plate is a really, really bad example (for you), since it's so hard to position your eye at the correct relative height of as if you were standing on the surface of the earth.  Given the huge difference in scales and the very poor relative motor control you have (very hard to keep your head in the same place without bobbing up and down about +/- 100 km or whatever relative to if the plate was the earth), if there is a place that you can position your head such that you do not observe any curvature at all, despite the regular uncontrollable variations in your head's height, then for someone standing on the earth, the phenomenon you described would not produce any visible curvature.

(note: it is not the point of this example to attempt to stabilize your head on the table or something.  The point is if you can see absence of curvature by just holding your head up regularly, despite the constant height variations, then the phenomenon you described certainly wouldn't be visible for someone standing on the surface of the earth, where they aren't jostling up and down 100 km or so.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 12:08:15 PM by Levi Dettwyler »

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Thork

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2013, 12:07:42 PM »
What you have written is wrong. Get a plate and a ruler.



Look at the top surface. Curvature on a flat object. The defence rests, Your Honour.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 12:10:07 PM by Thork »

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2013, 12:15:58 PM »
What you have written is wrong. Get a plate and a ruler.

Look at the top surface. Curvature on a flat object. The defence rests, Your Honour.

Did you not understand what I wrote?  That picture you just posted is taken as if you were thousands of kilometers or so above the earth.  I tried what I said to do, however, and was able to find a height such that even with my head moving up and down a little bit, I was not able to discern any curvature.  The picture you provided completely misses the point.

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Thork

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2013, 12:17:37 PM »
You are missing the point. If you are above the earth (which you are when you stand on it) the horizon will be curved even if it is flat. Therefore saying that this curvature proves earth to be spherical is erroneous and frankly a little dim.

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2013, 12:20:03 PM »
You are missing the point. If you are above the earth (which you are when you stand on it) the horizon will be curved even if it is flat. Therefore saying that this curvature proves earth round is erroneous and frankly a little dim.

I just demonstrated that if you were standing on the surface of the earth, the curvature produced from the phenomenon you described would be far too small to detect even with a ruler.  If it's not detectable at a large scale, then it surely isn't detectable at such a small scale (height wise).  Since we can see curvature, it must be produced by some other phenomenon, i.e. the earth sure looks like it's round.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 12:22:30 PM by Levi Dettwyler »

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Thork

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2013, 12:20:59 PM »
No, it wouldn't. It is that curvature that you are seeing. Not ball-like curvature. You are suffering from a serious case of confirmation bias. did you know even for RET it supposed to be impossible to see the curvature of the earth below 60,000 feet? You cannot possibly be observing curvature due to spherical features of the earth just by looking at it. You are observing dinner-plate/finite earth phenomena.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 12:22:58 PM by Thork »

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2013, 12:24:49 PM »
No, it wouldn't. It is that curvature that you are seeing. Not ball-like curvature. You are suffering from a serious case of confirmation bias. did you know even for RET it supposed to be impossible to see the curvature of the earth below 60,000 feet? You cannot possibly be observing curvature due to spherical features of the earth just by looking at it. You are observing dinner-plate/finite earth phenomena.

And you aren't suffering from confirmation bias?

It's a simple fact of geometry that if you turn a circle so that it's parallel with your line of sight, all you should see is a straight line.  That's basically what we're doing here.  The human eye isn't sensitive enough to be able to pick up any curvature from what you described if we're making such a ridiculously small angle with our eye and the surface of the earth, since we're so small and the earth is so large.

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2013, 12:26:45 PM »
It's kind of like rays of sunshine.  If you move one meter from where you currently are, the rays of sunshine in those two spots are, as far as you can observe, parallel, even with a FE model.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 12:30:30 PM by Levi Dettwyler »

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2013, 12:32:45 PM »
Besides, under RE, any curvature we observe would have to be from the roundness of the earth, since that curvature is perpendicular to our line of sight (standing the dinner plate on-end), and thus much more pronounced than the curvature produced from what you described (holding it level with our line of sight), which is effectively parallel, given the angles involved.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 12:40:09 PM by Levi Dettwyler »

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Thork

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2013, 12:41:31 PM »
It is not possible to see the curvature of the earth below 60,000 feet. This is a universally agreed lie amongst round earth conspirators.

Quote from: http://tinyurl.com/d79k6kc
60,000 feet is the number that keeps coming up from different sources for the point where the curvature of the Earth is visible.

So whatever it is that you think you are measuring with your ruler, its not the curvature of the earth.

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2013, 12:55:14 PM »
It is not possible to see the curvature of the earth below 60,000 feet. This is a universally agreed lie amongst round earth conspirators.

So whatever it is that you think you are measuring with your ruler, its not the curvature of the earth.

At least we've been able to establish that whatever is producing this phenomenon, it's probably not what you described.  Correct?  We can more rigorously look at the 60k feet problem once we've addressed competing phenomena.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 12:58:19 PM by Levi Dettwyler »

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Rip Riley

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Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2013, 12:59:56 PM »
I mentioned this:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=iss+orbiting+the+earth&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=

Looks pretty real to me.
Funny, the ISS footage looks the least real to me. I've posted about the ISS videos in other threads... looks like a 3d modeling program with aftereffects, I mean honestly... if you think that looks real I don't know what to say. One other observation... the cloud layer doesn't move or change at all... if you've ever taken time lapse footage of clouds you'll know that 15 minutes is long enough for a completely different sky. In the vid the clouds look like a #ws" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">single image layer going around with the sphere in a 3d modeling program... (check out 36 seconds in)
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 01:03:11 PM by Rip Riley »

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2013, 01:05:49 PM »
Funny, the ISS footage looks the least real to me. I've posted about the ISS videos in other threads... looks like a 3d modeling program with aftereffects, I mean honestly... if you think that looks real I don't know what to say.

Whether or not it "looks" real is actually a horrible way to look at, RE or FE, since there's no basis for comparison.  We don't know what a real earth would look like, since FE theory rejects the only instance of one RE has!  Thus, deductions about how "real" it looks on either side, with explicit regards to the earth, are not well grounded.  According to FE theory, 3D models or whatnot are the only type of round earth we've ever witnessed, so therefore any image or video of the earth to be put to the test will naturally look fake, since it's completely unknown what a real one is supposed to look like, in the frame of this debate.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 01:11:00 PM by Levi Dettwyler »

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Thork

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2013, 01:11:00 PM »
It is not possible to see the curvature of the earth below 60,000 feet. This is a universally agreed lie amongst round earth conspirators.

So whatever it is that you think you are measuring with your ruler, its not the curvature of the earth.

At least we've been able to establish that whatever is producing this phenomenon, it's probably not what you described.  Correct?  We can more rigorously look at the 60k feet problem once we've addressed competing phenomena.
No, its exactly what I described. It is not curvature of the earth as you have described.

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2013, 01:17:16 PM »
No, its exactly what I described. It is not curvature of the earth as you have described.

You really need to exit the frame of mind of one or the other, and just focus on the geometry here.  To avoid confusion for both of us, let's take it one step at a time.

1. Do you agree that if you rotate a circle to be parallel with your line of sight, it will appear flat (i.e. a straight line)?

2. Do you agree that the human eye has limits?

3.  If the human eye has limits, do you agree that there is a range of heights from the surface of the sphere where the curvature produced from what you described will still appear flat, i.e. indistinguishable from if your height was exactly zero?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 01:19:09 PM by Levi Dettwyler »

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Thork

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2013, 01:22:02 PM »
1. Yes but your eyes would need to be at ground level. The instant you stand up it is no longer the case.
2. Of course and seeing earth's curvature would be one of them, rendering your entire argument ridiculous.
3. If you can use YOUR EYES to pick out any curvature with a ruler BELOW 60,000 feet, that curvature is not cause by the earth being a ball.


Let me ask you some equally patronising questions.

1. Do you agree you can't see earth's curvature below 60,000 feet?
2. If so, why are you arguing you can see the curvature of the earth using a ruler?

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2013, 01:31:36 PM »

3. If you can use YOUR EYES to pick out any curvature with a ruler BELOW 60,000 feet, that curvature is not cause by the earth being a ball.

Let me ask you some equally patronising questions.

1. Do you agree you can't see earth's curvature below 60,000 feet?
2. If so, why are you arguing you can see the curvature of the earth using a ruler?

Stop trying to change the subject.  We're still examining your dinner plate phenomenon.  It isn't helpful when you try to jump to other things before we've conclusively established anything.

Your answer to number 3 has nothing to do with the question.  It's a yes or no question, and has nothing to do with the earth.  We're talking about a theoretical geometric circle.  The questions are designed to be as simple as possible for both of us.  The simpler things are, the easier they are to follow, and thus we avoid misinterpreting what the other person said.

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Thork

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2013, 01:32:22 PM »
The earth is flat. Are you misinterpreting that?

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2013, 01:39:41 PM »
The earth is flat. Are you misinterpreting that?

You're getting off-topic again.  This is getting kind of frustrating.  What's the point of this board if you are refusing to properly debate?  You keep trying to change the subject.  You aren't allowed to bring up explanations and refuse to defend them when they're questioned.  The only thing I'm claiming at this point is that we can witness curvature of the horizon.  I'm working toward stating that the visible curvature can't be caused by your dinner plate phenomenon.  You're claiming that there is visible curvature, but also that your dinner plate phenomenon is readily visible to the naked eye, in the context of standing on the surface of the earth.  But whenever I try to approach this issue, you change the subject or say things like what I've just quoted.

If the human eye has limits, do you agree that there is a range of heights from the surface of the circle where the curvature produced from what you described will still appear flat, i.e. indistinguishable from if your height was exactly zero?

Oops, it looks like I accidentally said sphere, making the question somewhat useless.  I meant circle.  Question restated.

Don't worry, I'm not going to consciously make any leaps in logic.  If I do, you are free to point them out, and I'm going to try very hard to not do so.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 01:49:29 PM by Levi Dettwyler »

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Thork

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2013, 01:56:01 PM »
Lets look at this another way. If the horizon did not bend to wrap around you, what happens when you turn 90 degrees to the left? Now the horizon is still jutting out like a set of rails to your right and does not join the horizon in front of you. You made a visual impossibility.



The horizon must bend around you in order that it is uniform and joins all the way around. It cannot be a straight line. This does not prove that earth is a ball though. It only proves you don't have good spatial awareness.

Re: How much RET explains
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2013, 01:58:31 PM »
This is a circle that I've drawn in blender:


In the following picture, I've positioned my camera so that it's JUST above the surface of the circle.  Note how the horizon is flat.  The pixels in the image simulate some limit of the human eye (not THE limit, but some limit).

http://grab.by/lpd4 (picture is too big to embed here)

Thus, given that the human eye has limits, there is some height (I haven't said what it is yet) at which the curvature of the circle is indistinguishable from flatness.

Note that if my camera was at height=0 relative to the circle, the edge would cut into the camera, creating an unnatural dropoff.

Edit: you misunderstand.  I do think that the horizon wraps around me.  I'm saying that there are limits to our ability to perceive the curvature produced from it wrapping around us and us looking slightly down at it.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 02:05:07 PM by Levi Dettwyler »