Pilots

From reading the FET, it is pretty solid amongst the FEers that pilots do not know that the earth is allegedly flat! Apparently they go a longer way round following a path if the earth was round! (I don't know how to describe it but im sure you know what I mean). This is hard to discredit but I have a query. When ever you go on a standard air liner, you can see the curvature of the earth, why is it not flat? Surely pilots could see that the earth was flat (if it was) and debunk the RET! That is why whenever anyone goes in an airliner, they see that the earth is round, not flat!

Check mate

No commercial aircraft achieves a height at which one can view the curvature of the Earth. To do so, one would need to be at least ~80,000 feet in the air. Commercial airliners achieve barely half that height. In RET, curvature supposedly exists at lower altitudes, however the human eye can not resolve such a small change.

Any curvature you see from a commercial aircraft is pseudo-curvature caused by the atmosphere, regardless of whether you are taking RET or FET into account.

I have never seen the curvature of a "spherical Earth" on an airplane,
and even if the Earth was spherical you would have to go a lot higher.

No commercial aircraft achieves a height at which one can view the curvature of the Earth. To do so, one would need to be at least ~80,000 feet in the air. Commercial airliners achieve barely half that height. In RET, curvature supposedly exists at lower altitudes, however the human eye can not resolve such a small change.

Any curvature you see from a commercial aircraft is pseudo-curvature caused by the atmosphere, regardless of whether you are taking RET or FET into account.

So you accept that the earth is not flat

[..] Any curvature you see from a commercial aircraft is pseudo-curvature [..]

The curvatures i saw on that japanese stewardess were everything but pseudo!

So you accept that the earth is not flat

Please point out exactly where I said that. I teach both theories, because RE'ers seldom understand RET as it currently exists.

No commercial aircraft achieves a height at which one can view the curvature of the Earth. To do so, one would need to be at least ~80,000 feet in the air. Commercial airliners achieve barely half that height. In RET, curvature supposedly exists at lower altitudes, however the human eye can not resolve such a small change.

Any curvature you see from a commercial aircraft is pseudo-curvature caused by the atmosphere, regardless of whether you are taking RET or FET into account.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=earths+curvature+from+a+plane&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=njWlUPbuC6Oi0QX67YHACA&biw=1024&bih=672&sei=vDWlUMCrMYio0QXmxoGIAQ#biv=i|3;d|r748Lgwns-EtVM:

Sorry for some reason I couldn't get an individual picture to just come up through a link, still, there are many pictures showing the earths curvature, through what are obviously commercial airliners!

Quote from: Irushwithscvs on November 15, 2012, 10:25:39 AM

No commercial aircraft achieves a height at which one can view the curvature of the Earth. To do so, one would need to be at least ~80,000 feet in the air. Commercial airliners achieve barely half that height. In RET, curvature supposedly exists at lower altitudes, however the human eye can not resolve such a small change.

Any curvature you see from a commercial aircraft is pseudo-curvature caused by the atmosphere, regardless of whether you are taking RET or FET into account.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=earths+curvature+from+a+plane&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=njWlUPbuC6Oi0QX67YHACA&biw=1024&bih=672&sei=vDWlUMCrMYio0QXmxoGIAQ#biv=i|3;d|r748Lgwns-EtVM:

Sorry for some reason I couldn't get an individual picture to just come up through a link, still, there are many pictures showing the earths curvature, through what are obviously commercial airliners!

The other guy is right, that is lens distortion. The thing is, no matter in what direction you look, any point on earth will be at the same height, so there is no reason to see a curvature like that. For you to see it, the horizon of the earth should be way lower than the eye level, so that when you look down you can see its curvature, but you will never see it if you are looking parallel to the floor to see the horizon.

I was in a plane yesterday. The earth looked wonderfully flat.

From reading the FET, it is pretty solid amongst the FEers that pilots do not know that the earth is allegedly flat! Apparently they go a longer way round following a path if the earth was round! (I don't know how to describe it but im sure you know what I mean).

Check mate

👆Really??
There are a few ways to navigate.
I'm assuming you are talking about "Great Cirle navigation" and or "Rhumb line navigation"
Rhumb line = http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhumb_line#section_2
Great Circle = http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_circle
Or you plan your route, taking into account most of all wind direction
See below of a post I took from an aviation website, of pilots talking about navigating and one even mentioning "pretending the earth is a sphere"


<"Ok, most of us know the shortest route between two points it a straight line, and on the globe this corresponds to the great circle track, that cuts the earth in half.

I am wondering what software do airlines use to dispatch and create flight plans for calculating these routes. I am very curious as i will be flying for an airline very soon, these things interest me greatly.
Does the software find the best possible route with the winds and then transpose it to the closest airways? What sort of logic ?

any input would be great.

thanks">

<"I cannot name any flight planning software for you but I am quite sure that computer-based flight planning does favor great circle.

Several years ago it was quite common for us to be offered a vector 3/4 of the way across the country during the climb out of the departure airport. Eventually flight ops sent out a memo telling us not to accept those clearances anymore because they were rhumb-line direct and actually were longer than the filed route.

Of course current winds aloft must be considered and it does not take much wind to wipe out the difference between great circle and some other logical routing.">

<">>>I am wondering what software do airlines use to dispatch and create flight plans for calculating these routes.

There are a variety of flight planning "engines" used by various vendors and airlines, and Jeppesen is just one of them.

As far as routes go, it depends upon the ATC environment one is operating in. If I'm planning/releasing a flight in the northeast US, I'm not going via Great anything, and instead will be on DPs/airways/STARs, expecially on the shorter flights. On the longer flights, and flights from the Mississippi River westward, I'll still be on DPs/airways/STARs, but I can optimize my route to avoid headwinds, or take advantage of tailwinds. ">

<""...because they were rhumb-line direct and actually were longer than the filed route."

Is that true? When the aircraft is flying "direct" to a fix 2000 miles away, it's flying a rhumb line?

I still suspect they were pulling your leg. I'm too lazy to calculate it, but offhand I'm guessing the rhumb line distance between, say, Mina and Wilkes-Barre wouldn't be longer than any airway distance between them.

👉As for calculating great circles, anyone who has a programmable calculator can do it, especially if you're willing to pretend the earth is a sphere.👈">

<"The flight planning engine we use is also used by some of the airlines
though I do not know which ones.

Great circle routes are great if all conditions are perfect. Our flight
planning engine is based off best winds first then it takes into account
the great circle distance. This is for random routes only.">

<"The system we use can be asked to find the Min Time Track, which willl factor in winds to find the shortest time (and lowest fuel burn in theory.. though i've beat the machine regularly). AN example, this time of year, we send the flights SEA-OSN up over southerns alaska the southwest parallel to the Kamchatka peninsula. Thats generally the quickest route (withouth overlfying Russia). The return flight , stays well south over the north pacific and gets a nice push from the jets. The distance is longer but its faster than doing the circle routing.

SImilar conditions are in place over the Atlantic. There are the tracks published daily for both u can use (or not) and they are generally the favorable routing, though sometimes you can shave tme not usuaing the tracks occasionally, mostly westbound.">

Your assumption is incorrect, but yes pilots do take a longer route if it means shorter flight time and less fuel burn...

I know when I navigate I have a flat map, draw straight lines from departure location to destination location, take in account of wind direction, so to adjust magnetic heading due to wind drift, then go fly route best as I can, whether the earth is flat or round doesn't matter or come into the equation. Yes I am a recreational Pilot..

If you put a flat earther on a commercial flight, and for some reason the pilot had to choose a navigation method based on FE theory V conventional navigation methods, (bearing in mind the limited fuel and safety concerns that would result) - you would see the fastest conversion to RET philosophy in history.

There are no atheists in a foxhole - it is said, and there are no FET believers  in situations where their 'philosophy' would have to work in a life and death situation.

There are no FET engineers, navigators, surveyors, astronauts or pilots, where they have to depend on real information to thrive and survive.

There are no FET engineers, navigators, surveyors, astronauts or pilots, where they have to depend on real information to thrive and survive.

There is a FET pilot

Quote from: RW on November 19, 2012, 06:35:04 PM

There are no FET engineers, navigators, surveyors, astronauts or pilots, where they have to depend on real information to thrive and survive.

There is a FET pilot

Who is this pilot, and lets see some evidence of these FE maps he uses and instruments that he uses that support FET

Quote from: Beorn on November 20, 2012, 02:21:54 AM

Quote from: RW on November 19, 2012, 06:35:04 PM

There are no FET engineers, navigators, surveyors, astronauts or pilots, where they have to depend on real information to thrive and survive.

There is a FET pilot

Who is this pilot, and lets see some evidence of these FE maps he uses and instruments that he uses that support FET

Lurk moar.

Quote from: RW on November 19, 2012, 06:35:04 PM

There are no FET engineers, navigators, surveyors, astronauts or pilots, where they have to depend on real information to thrive and survive.

There is a FET pilot

Not at all - its just that the rest of the world would prefer their planes to arrive at the right place, their roads and bridges to end at the right place, and their land to be as big as they paid for. Nothing personal, FET are just incompetent.

Quote from: Beorn on November 20, 2012, 02:21:54 AM

Quote from: RW on November 19, 2012, 06:35:04 PM

There are no FET engineers, navigators, surveyors, astronauts or pilots, where they have to depend on real information to thrive and survive.

There is a FET pilot

Not at all - its just that the rest of the world would prefer their planes to arrive at the right place, their roads and bridges to end at the right place, and their land to be as big as they paid for. Nothing personal, FET are just incompetent.

No there is a FET pilot.

Indeed. We actually have multiple FES pilots. If you wish to know who they are I suggest lurking/asking around. We don't post personal information of others, despite them having already posted it before themselves.

the FES has pilots? 

Well, lacking an airline, we don't have pilots (though a VP can dream... perhaps some day we'll see Flat Earth Airways), but off the top of my head I can think of three FE proponents who are pilots. There may be more for all I know.

If you put a flat earther on a commercial flight, and for some reason the pilot had to choose a navigation method based on FE theory V conventional navigation methods, (bearing in mind the limited fuel and safety concerns that would result) - you would see the fastest conversion to RET philosophy in history.

Huh? Could you please explain the two navigational methods? The FET one and the RET?

Do these pilots use FET maps though? Or just use RE based GPS's and such?

RE based GPS's

Such devices do not exist on any market. All GPS devices use basic FET mathematics, which is why they are accurate.

There's no such thing a "fe math". it doesn't exist in the Q&a nor in the fet wiki.

i think you cannot cite me any single person wh is a fe'er and who's been working on gps systems.

if you knew how to use a gps, you'll find that they only describe a round earth

Quote from: geepun92 on November 21, 2012, 05:26:46 AM

RE based GPS's

Such devices do not exist on any market. All GPS devices use basic FET mathematics, which is why they are accurate.

You have been through this on different thread, in the past... You got beaten on your own point of triliteration, which was then ignored and you ended up wanting a 3D scanned image of the Earth

Do these pilots use FET maps though? Or just use RE based GPS's and such?

Why do people think GPS in Aeroplanes is the pilots main navigational aid.
Here is a brief run down on how pilots navigate.
 
The Method of Navigation
There are three main methods of air navigation. There are:
1. Pilotage , 2. Dead Reckoning , 3. Radio.
Pilotage or Piloting is the most common method of air navigation. This method, the pilot keeps on course by following a series of landmarks on the ground. Usually before take-off, pilot will making pre-flight planning , the pilot will draws a line on the aeronautical map to indicate the desired course. Pilot will nots various landmarks , such as highways , railroad tracks, rivers , bridges . As the pilot flies over each of landmark , pilot will checks it off on the chart or map. If the plane does not pass directly over thelandmark , the pilot will know that he has to correct the course.
Dead Reckoning is the primary navigation method used in the early days of flying. It is the method on which Lindberg relied on his first trans-Atlantic flight. A pilot used this method when flying over large bodies of water, forest, deserts. It demands more skill and experience than pilotage does. It is based on time, distance, and direction only. The pilot must know the distance from one point to the next, the magnetic heading to be flown. Pilot works on the pre-flight plan chart , pilot plan a route in advance. Pilot calculate the time to know exactly to reach the distination while flying at constant speed. In the air, the pilot uses compass to keep the plane heading in the right direction. Dead reckoning is not always a successful method of navigation because of changing wind direction. It is the fundamental of VFR flight.
Radio Navigation is used by almost all pilots. Pilots can find out from an aeronautical chart what radio station they should tune to in a particular area. They can then tune their radio navigation equipment to a signal from this station. A needle on the navigation equipment tells the pilot where they are flying to or from station, on course or not .

Pilots have various navigation aids that help them takeoff,fly, and land safely. One of the most important aids is a series of air route traffic control , operated throughout the world. Most of the traffic control uses a radar screen to make sure all the planes in its vicinity are flying in their assigned airways. Airliners carry a special type of radar receiver and transmitter called a transponder. It receives a radar signal from control center and immediately bounces it back. When the signal got to the ground, it makes the plane show up on the radar screen.
Pilots have special methods for navigating across oceans. Three commonly used methods are:
1. Inertial GuidanceThis system has computer and other special devices that tell pilots where are the plane located.
2.LORAN Long Range Navigation The plane has equipment for receiving special radio signals sent out continuous from transmitter stations. The signals will indicate the plane location
3.GPS Global Positioning System. is the only system today able to show your exact position on the earth any time, anywhere, and any weather. The system receiver on the aircraft will receives the signals from sattelites around the globe.

It is true, in most cases, that large, commercial aircraft do not use GPS for primary navigation. But they use Flight Management Systems (FMS)
These system utilize any source of information that is available to discern the aircraft position and destination and present it to the pilot and autopilot.

The primary method is using Airways. These airways are defined usually by flying from one VOR to another VOR. Each VOR has a specific frequency that it operates on. The pilot sets the frequency into the radio (using the NAV function as opposed to the GPS function) and sets the OBS to the heading that will take the aircraft TO or FROM that particular VOR station. VOR stations have different clasifications that relate to the distance you can use them to navigate. In other words, you have to be close to a VOR station to fly to it (relatively). You cannot set the VOR frequency for OAKland (116. and fly from New York to that frequency.

Example: to fly from SFO (San Francisco) to RNO (Reno) you could set your frequency to 115.2 (Sacramento VOR) and fly towards the VOR in Sacramento on a heading of about 35 degrees then, after you pass Sacramento VOR, fly about 40 more miles away FROM the Sacramento VOR and change frequencies to 117.9 (Mustang VOR) near Reno.

You will also get DME (Distance Measuring Equipment) information. This information includes groundspeed in Knots and distance to station in Nautical Miles.

Quote from: geepun92 on November 21, 2012, 05:26:46 AM

RE based GPS's

Such devices do not exist on any market. All GPS devices use basic FET mathematics, which is why they are accurate.

No, GPS is based on satellites.

Dead Reckoning is the primary navigation method used in the early days of flying. It is the method on which Lindberg relied on his first trans-Atlantic flight. A pilot used this method when flying over large bodies of water, forest, deserts. It demands more skill and experience than pilotage does. It is based on time, distance, and direction only. The pilot must know the distance from one point to the next, the magnetic heading to be flown. Pilot works on the pre-flight plan chart , pilot plan a route in advance. Pilot calculate the time to know exactly to reach the distination while flying at constant speed. In the air, the pilot uses compass to keep the plane heading in the right direction. Dead reckoning is not always a successful method of navigation because of changing wind direction. It is the fundamental of VFR flight.

Did they use maps provided by the flat earth society, or maps drawn by people assuming the world is a globe?

Quote from: LIGHTSTORM on November 25, 2012, 03:41:24 AM

Dead Reckoning is the primary navigation method used in the early days of flying. It is the method on which Lindberg relied on his first trans-Atlantic flight. A pilot used this method when flying over large bodies of water, forest, deserts. It demands more skill and experience than pilotage does. It is based on time, distance, and direction only. The pilot must know the distance from one point to the next, the magnetic heading to be flown. Pilot works on the pre-flight plan chart , pilot plan a route in advance. Pilot calculate the time to know exactly to reach the distination while flying at constant speed. In the air, the pilot uses compass to keep the plane heading in the right direction. Dead reckoning is not always a successful method of navigation because of changing wind direction. It is the fundamental of VFR flight.

Did they use maps provided by the flat earth society, or maps drawn by people assuming the world is a globe?

"Did?" Do you mean, did you read last sentence? "It is the fundamental of VFR flight."
VFR = Visual Flight Rules.
If you know the distance between the two points your flying between and the magnetic bearing, then you wouldn't need a map to navigate, I could draw a route on a blank piece of paper and go fly it, if I flew the route I drew on a piece of blank paper and crossed a river, I couldn't cross check my blank paper to make sure I was on track as its blank, but if I flew to my calculations I can still get to my destination. A map just helps with visual orientation.
As to where maps come from, I don't know I just buy them from Air Services

"Did?" Do you mean, did you read last sentence? "It is the fundamental of VFR flight."
VFR = Visual Flight Rules.
If you know the distance between the two points your flying between and the magnetic bearing, then you wouldn't need a map to navigate, I could draw a route on a blank piece of paper and go fly it, if I flew the route I drew on a piece of blank paper and crossed a river, I couldn't cross check my blank paper to make sure I was on track as its blank, but if I flew to my calculations I can still get to my destination. A map just helps with visual orientation.
As to where maps come from, I don't know I just buy them from Air Services

So you rely more on distances and directions than on maps? Lets suppose you wanted to do a long flight, from some point in australia, to some point in south america (airports). How do you get information as specific as that? I mean some pilot that does not work in a commercial airline.

the FES has pilots? 

Thork is a pilot and master of Photoshop -- probably good enough to make that his full-time job.  Coincidence?  Probably not, he was obviously being groomed to be a key player in the conspiracy before he discovered the truth.  Sad really, he could have made a lot of money, but alas, I guess there is no price for a conscience.