Poll

What is the source of the FES map in the FAQ?

FES
13 (38.2%)
Elsewhere
21 (61.8%)

Total Members Voted: 31

The source of FES's map

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zarg

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2012, 05:27:50 PM »
These disputes over intellectual ownership are not useful - nobody owns these maps, they are representations of the actual Earth.  One can no more claim dominion over the idea or form of these maps than one can do for the Earth.

That's not really what I'm getting at, and my comment about disputing IP with James Hastings-Trew was meant mostly as a joke.

What I'm trying to determine is the evolution behind the map in the FAQ. It's clearly a pixel-perfect copy of a modern Round Earth map. The question is, did the FES copy that map out of laziness, or did you invent it before it was discovered by RE'ers that by pure coincidence it fits their ideas perfectly?
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James

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2012, 07:41:11 PM »
Our cartography is derived from the actual shape and form of the Earth.  Round Earth maps must try as best as possible to match observable data (lest they be revealed as spurious lies and drivel), so it is not surprising there are similarities.

Yet however, Gauss' theorem proves that the surface of a sphere can never be perfectly imputed to two dimensional representations.  Thus, the Round Earther's empirical maps can never quite add up to his spherical model. He must distort either the true size, shape or spacing of the continents to accommodate his faulty sphere. A flat empirical map which does not presuppose that the Earth is a globe is not subject to such constraints and can therefore be 100% accurate.
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zarg

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #62 on: May 04, 2012, 08:46:47 PM »
it is not surprising there are similarities.

But we're talking more than mere "similarities" here, Jim. This is blatant ripping off.



I personally produced the map on the left using a tool from NASA that works based on spherical geometry.

The map on the right is the one on display in your FAQ.


the Round Earther's empirical maps can never quite add up to his spherical model. He must distort either the true size, shape or spacing of the continents to accommodate his faulty sphere. A flat empirical map which does not presuppose that the Earth is a globe is not subject to such constraints and can therefore be 100% accurate.

Utterly false. When viewed as a representation flat surface, the above map is not accurate. If it were a 2D projection, then it could be relied on for distances between any two points, but it can't. It can however be relied on for any path that crosses through the center.

In Flat Earth terms, only one of these two maps can be correct (this one or this one). In reality, both are correct when measuring through the center. They have been successfully relied on for years.

Refer to my still-unanswered challenge:

I measure the distance from the center of that map to any other point on it; for example, let's say the southeastern corner of Australia. Now if I take a globe which has a circumference equal to the diameter of your map, and wrap a string from the north pole of that globe to the southeastern corner of Australia, the length of the string will be exactly the same measurement. This will work for a line from the north pole to anywhere else on the map. How do you explain this phenomenon?
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canofpepsi

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #63 on: May 05, 2012, 04:34:53 AM »
Actually, now that you've made this:



We can clearly see that the map you've "personally produced" is of significantly lower quality. Perhaps this is because it has been re-shaped so many times?

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #64 on: May 05, 2012, 07:59:23 AM »
Actually, now that you've made this:



We can clearly see that the map you've "personally produced" is of significantly lower quality. Perhaps this is because it has been re-shaped so many times?

Re-shaped or not, it is still a RE map.
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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zarg

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #65 on: May 05, 2012, 01:53:01 PM »
We can clearly see that the map you've "personally produced" is of significantly lower quality. Perhaps this is because it has been re-shaped so many times?

Actually, no it's not lower quality, it's higher. The original can be viewed here. The only reason it's lower quality in the side-by-side shot is because I had to shrink the screenshot to match the size of the FAQ map. Here it is again, this time with my version unmodified and the FAQ's enlarged to fit:



And what exactly are you trying to say? That I've deceptively modified the output? You can easily do this in 2 minutes and see for yourself. You can download the texture here, and download the tool here. All you need to do is load the file, set the projection to "Azimuthal Equidistant", set the long/lat to 0 degrees east / 90 degrees north, and radius to 180 degrees. Boom, instant FES merchandise. No tricks here.

When will you tire of making baseless accusations of my motives and sincerity? This is really getting old.
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #66 on: May 05, 2012, 02:48:35 PM »
We can clearly see that the map you've "personally produced" is of significantly lower quality. Perhaps this is because it has been re-shaped so many times?

Actually, no it's not lower quality, it's higher. The original can be viewed here. The only reason it's lower quality in the side-by-side shot is because I had to shrink the screenshot to match the size of the FAQ map. Here it is again, this time with my version unmodified and the FAQ's enlarged to fit:



And what exactly are you trying to say? That I've deceptively modified the output? You can easily do this in 2 minutes and see for yourself. You can download the texture here, and download the tool here. All you need to do is load the file, set the projection to "Azimuthal Equidistant", set the long/lat to 0 degrees east / 90 degrees north, and radius to 180 degrees. Boom, instant FES merchandise. No tricks here.

When will you tire of making baseless accusations of my motives and sincerity? This is really getting old.

So you're saying that this FE map is based on a FE map and you can prove it?
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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canofpepsi

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #67 on: May 05, 2012, 05:49:51 PM »
When will you tire of making baseless accusations of my motives and sincerity? This is really getting old.
As soon as you stop being insincere, of course. I agree, it's quite boring by now. So you could just stop.
Oh, and I never questioned your motives. So that's you being insincere again. Oh my, oh my.

Also, your "original" map is still of visibly worse quality. In the last picture, where you intentionally lower the FAQ map's quality (not accusing you of anything here, you said that's what you're doing), they look pretty much the same. As you're constantly unable to produce a map of comparable quality from the rectangular map you propose as the "source" of this rendition, I'm afraid that it simply can't be the source.

Now, back to the point - this rendering was something made from illustrative purposes. I don't know how, and I don't know by whom. However, it has little to do with Rowbotham's/Voliva's/other historic FE'ers' maps, which are what Tom was originally talking about. As you can see, it's not only that you're wrong/lying about how the particular picture was produced, but also the fact that it's of no relevance at all.

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zarg

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #68 on: May 05, 2012, 10:31:52 PM »
So you're saying that this FE map is based on a FE map and you can prove it?

Did you mean "based on a RE map"? Yes, I would say that's thoroughly self-evident at this point.



I never questioned your motives.

Yes, you did. Earlier you accused me of purposefully distorting Tom's claim, and now you are insinuating that I have "re-shaped" the map "many times" to make it match. These are accusations of premeditated deception. Please defer your attacks on my character until you have a shred of evidence to support them.


Also, your "original" map is still of visibly worse quality. In the last picture, where you intentionally lower the FAQ map's quality (not accusing you of anything here, you said that's what you're doing), they look pretty much the same. As you're constantly unable to produce a map of comparable quality from the rectangular map you propose as the "source" of this rendition, I'm afraid that it simply can't be the source.

Good grief, what a load of rubbish. Stop wasting everyone's time whining about jpeg compression artifacts or whatever it is you're seeing. The quality of my screenshot is perfectly fine for the purpose of demonstrating how blindingly obvious it is that the Hastings-Trew texture is the source of the FAQ map. But since you insist on being a weenie about this, I'll export one to the exact specifications of the FAQ map. Observe:





And here is the resulting file uncompressed: http://i.cubeupload.com/itgM2C.png

Compare with the FAQ: http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r36/Persistenxe/Flat_earth-1.png


Now, back to the point - this rendering was something made from illustrative purposes. I don't know how, and I don't know by whom. However, it has little to do with Rowbotham's/Voliva's/other historic FE'ers' maps, which are what Tom was originally talking about. As you can see, it's not only that you're wrong/lying about how the particular picture was produced, but also the fact that it's of no relevance at all.

For what I sincerely hope will be the last time, "how the particular picture was produced" is the whole point of this thread, and your insistence that Tom has not made these claims remains unfounded. If you aren't interested in the topic, kindly leave the thread rather than telling me that it's of no relevance.
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

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canofpepsi

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #69 on: May 05, 2012, 10:36:49 PM »
And here is the resulting file uncompressed: http://i.cubeupload.com/itgM2C.png

Compare with the FAQ: http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r36/Persistenxe/Flat_earth-1.png
Still nowhere near. It's even missing some islands!

Yes, you did.
Nope. Oh well, I guess you insist on still being dishonest. Enjoy being called dishonest.

For what I sincerely hope will be the last time, "how the particular picture was produced" is the whole point of this thread, and your insistence that Tom has not made these claims remains unfounded.
It remains founded by the OP. The OP is titled "The source of FES's map", and the quotes provided refer to maps significantly older than the one in the FAQ. In other words, you've just proven yourself wrong... again.

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Cat Earth Theory

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #70 on: May 05, 2012, 10:46:10 PM »
First response, Roundy says the map in question was created here.  Also, the whole obvious troll niche is already filled to the max.  I'd suggest finding a different area to specialize in.
If you focus on the cloud, and conceive of it just as you would a dream you are trying to interpret, with practice its meanings and memories will be revealed to you.

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canofpepsi

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #71 on: May 05, 2012, 10:50:47 PM »
First response, Roundy says the map in question was created here.
It was.

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zarg

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Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #73 on: May 07, 2012, 06:56:43 PM »
No, that map was definitely created here.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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zarg

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #74 on: May 07, 2012, 10:34:21 PM »
No, that map was definitely created here.

Or so the story goes.  This guy claims to be the creator. From the Wikimedia upload page:

Quote
2008-11-14 14:33 Trekky0623 543×543× (405315 bytes) {{PD-self|date=17 August 2007}} I made this map myself by creating an azimuthal projection of the entire Earth.

Yet according to Tom it was invented by FE'ers (which Trekky0623 is not) and without using globular projections (which Trekky0623 claims to have done).

So someone is lying. Who?
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #75 on: May 08, 2012, 12:32:25 AM »
He did make the map. Using a RE map and RE software.

And the result is a map with the deformation that usually occurs when you project a sphere on a flat surface.
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #76 on: May 08, 2012, 05:43:28 AM »
No, that map was definitely created here.

Or so the story goes.  This guy claims to be the creator. From the Wikimedia upload page:

Quote
2008-11-14 14:33 Trekky0623 543×543× (405315 bytes) {{PD-self|date=17 August 2007}} I made this map myself by creating an azimuthal projection of the entire Earth.

Yet according to Tom it was invented by FE'ers (which Trekky0623 is not) and without using globular projections (which Trekky0623 claims to have done).

So someone is lying. Who?


Trekky0623 is an Official Member and Friend of the Flat Earth Society. No-one is lying, you're just wrong (as usual).
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #77 on: May 08, 2012, 06:42:43 AM »
No, that map was definitely created here.

Or so the story goes.  This guy claims to be the creator. From the Wikimedia upload page:

Quote
2008-11-14 14:33 Trekky0623 543×543× (405315 bytes) {{PD-self|date=17 August 2007}} I made this map myself by creating an azimuthal projection of the entire Earth.

Yet according to Tom it was invented by FE'ers (which Trekky0623 is not) and without using globular projections (which Trekky0623 claims to have done).

So someone is lying. Who?

Trekky0623 is an Official Member and Friend of the Flat Earth Society. No-one is lying, you're just wrong (as usual).

He did a FE map using a RE map? Could be true.
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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zarg

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #78 on: May 08, 2012, 02:50:02 PM »
Trekky0623 is an Official Member and Friend of the Flat Earth Society.

So is squevil. Your point? A review of Trekky's post history quickly demonstrates that he's a RE advocate.


No-one is lying, you're just wrong (as usual).

Yes, someone is certainly lying. On the one hand we have Tom Bishop saying that the FAQ's map was designed by FE'ers from scratch and the azimuthal projection was later derived from their map. On the other, we have a FE denier claiming that it's a RE azimuthal projection from its inception.
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #79 on: May 08, 2012, 02:57:14 PM »
Trekky0623 is an Official Member and Friend of the Flat Earth Society.

So is squevil. Your point? A review of Trekky's post history quickly demonstrates that he's a RE advocate.


No-one is lying, you're just wrong (as usual).

Yes, someone is certainly lying. On the one hand we have Tom Bishop saying that the FAQ's map was designed by FE'ers from scratch and the azimuthal projection was later derived from their map. On the other, we have a FE denier claiming that it's a RE azimuthal projection from its inception.

I doubt there's a single FE'er here capable of drawing a FE map.

Even if they tried, they couldn't.
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #80 on: May 08, 2012, 03:06:19 PM »
No, that map was definitely created here.

Or so the story goes.  This guy claims to be the creator. From the Wikimedia upload page:

Quote
2008-11-14 14:33 Trekky0623 543×543× (405315 bytes) {{PD-self|date=17 August 2007}} I made this map myself by creating an azimuthal projection of the entire Earth.

Yet according to Tom it was invented by FE'ers (which Trekky0623 is not) and without using globular projections (which Trekky0623 claims to have done).

So someone is lying. Who?

Well, I never claimed that it was created by FEers.  My sole claim was that the map was created here, and indeed, it was.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #81 on: May 08, 2012, 03:06:30 PM »
If the very REPRESENTATION of the flat earth, indeed - idea that this proud society STANDS FOR - was created using tainted globularist propaganda and not direct observations it is a dark day for Zeteticism.

But seriously you would think that there would be a record of how Rowbothams map was changed over time - modified as a result of the direct observations of Zeteticists to (one of the) maps in the FAQ.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #82 on: May 08, 2012, 06:44:05 PM »
Trekky0623 is an Official Member and Friend of the Flat Earth Society.

So is squevil. Your point? A review of Trekky's post history quickly demonstrates that he's a RE advocate.


His post-history prior to joining, or his post-history since joining?
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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zarg

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #83 on: May 08, 2012, 07:21:16 PM »
His post-history prior to joining, or his post-history since joining?

Actually, the point at which he "joined" the Society doesn't enter into the equation; what's relevant is the time at which he actually produced the map. You will find RE sentiments both before and after the posts wherein he refers to his map. Thus he, at the very least, was a RE'er at the time that he produced the map; ergo, your map was produced by a RE'er.


Well, I never claimed that it was created by FEers.  My sole claim was that the map was created here, and indeed, it was.

Of course, which is why I had to clarify the question for you. This is not about who was directly responsible for bringing this particular image file into being, it's about the lineage of its development:

The question is, did the FES copy that map out of laziness, or did you invent it before it was discovered by RE'ers that by pure coincidence it fits their ideas perfectly?

James tells me "Our cartography is derived from the actual shape and form of the Earth." From this statement and Trekky0623's statement, we can infer three possibilities: Trekky0623 lied about his authorship or method of producing the image; James is telling us that the actual shape and form of the Earth is a globe; or James lied about what their cartography is derived from.
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #84 on: May 08, 2012, 07:28:21 PM »
His post-history prior to joining, or his post-history since joining?

Actually, the point at which he "joined" the Society doesn't enter into the equation; what's relevant is the time at which he actually produced the map. You will find RE sentiments both before and after the posts wherein he refers to his map. Thus he, at the very least, was a RE'er at the time that he produced the map; ergo, your map was produced by a RE'er.


Well, I never claimed that it was created by FEers.  My sole claim was that the map was created here, and indeed, it was.

Of course, which is why I had to clarify the question for you. This is not about who was directly responsible for bringing this particular image file into being, it's about the lineage of its development:

The question is, did the FES copy that map out of laziness, or did you invent it before it was discovered by RE'ers that by pure coincidence it fits their ideas perfectly?

James tells me "Our cartography is derived from the actual shape and form of the Earth." From this statement and Trekky0623's statement, we can infer three possibilities: Trekky0623 lied about his authorship or method of producing the image; James is telling us that the actual shape and form of the Earth is a globe; or James lied about what their cartography is derived from.

So why is the answer to your poll different from the answer you were looking for?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #85 on: May 08, 2012, 07:40:25 PM »
His post-history prior to joining, or his post-history since joining?

Actually, the point at which he "joined" the Society doesn't enter into the equation; what's relevant is the time at which he actually produced the map. You will find RE sentiments both before and after the posts wherein he refers to his map. Thus he, at the very least, was a RE'er at the time that he produced the map; ergo, your map was produced by a RE'er.


First of all, can we see some evidence substantiating the bolded claim?


Secondly, this shift in goalposts is frankly laughable. The poll in the OP, which you created, presents the following options: 1) FES, and 2) Elsewhere. Either way, you're wrong - as usual.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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zarg

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #86 on: May 08, 2012, 09:02:17 PM »
His post-history prior to joining, or his post-history since joining?

Actually, the point at which he "joined" the Society doesn't enter into the equation; what's relevant is the time at which he actually produced the map. You will find RE sentiments both before and after the posts wherein he refers to his map. Thus he, at the very least, was a RE'er at the time that he produced the map; ergo, your map was produced by a RE'er.


First of all, can we see some evidence substantiating the bolded claim?

Of course.

May 4th, 2007: Trekky posts the original version his map. [link]

October 1st, 2007: Trekky argues against FET. [link] Refers to RET as "our theory".

March 31st, 2008: More arguing against FET. [link] "Flat Earth Theory has NO PROOF"; "The Earth is not special, it is like all other planets.  The sun is not special, it is like all other stars, etc."

December 28, 2008: He clarifies that his pro-FE posts are devil's advocacy. [link]


Secondly, this shift in goalposts is frankly laughable. The poll in the OP, which you created, presents the following options: 1) FES, and 2) Elsewhere. Either way, you're wrong - as usual.

Yes. The poll answers are and always were what I am looking for: Does the map design originate from within or without?

Please show me where I moved the goalposts. What I'm saying now is in line with my OP, which remains unedited:

designed by Flat Earthers and that all maps which resemble it were stolen from the FES, and even that the geometrical transformation formulae which project the globe into this configuration were actually concocted after the fact

Funny how Cat Earth Theory, Tom Bishop, and Emperor Zhark all understood where I was coming from before I supposedly moved the goalposts -- did they see into the future? If you were too lazy to read anything beyond the thread title and and the poll choices, that's your problem.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 09:04:17 PM by zarg »
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #87 on: May 08, 2012, 09:16:24 PM »
May 4th, 2007: Trekky posts the original version his map. [link]


Funny, that isn't the map you posted in the OP. Did you make a mistake?


Moreover, the only post you provide that was made after he created the map used in the OP in no way indicates belief in a RE. Meaning you're wrong again.


Yes. The poll answers are and always were what I am looking for: Does the map design originate from within or without?

Please show me where I moved the goalposts. What I'm saying now is in line with my OP, which remains unedited:

designed by Flat Earthers and that all maps which resemble it were stolen from the FES, and even that the geometrical transformation formulae which project the globe into this configuration were actually concocted after the fact

Funny how Cat Earth Theory, Tom Bishop, and Emperor Zhark all understood where I was coming from before I supposedly moved the goalposts -- did they see into the future? If you were too lazy to read anything beyond the thread title and and the poll choices, that's your problem.


Uh... the map in question was created here, at tFES, for tFES, by someone who is an Official Member of tFES, and a long-time defender of FET. Now you're saying he has to have been a FE'er at the time of the map's creation, which is neither in your poll nor your OP.


Hence goalpost-shifting, ergo you lose. Come up with a more worthwhile argument next time, zarg. That way you'll at least lose in pursuit of something worth winning.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #88 on: May 08, 2012, 09:23:46 PM »
So why is the answer to your poll different from the answer you were looking for?

This remains unanswered.  The answer to the question in the poll is demonstrably FES, not "elsewhere".  Why ask this question, then ignore it in favor of a completely different discussion in the thread itself?  I can see using a simple poll question as a springboard for discussion, of course; it just doesn't seem to make any sense whatsoever to make that question completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand (and making matters worse, to claim LIES! when given an honest answer to that question).
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: The source of FES's map
« Reply #89 on: May 08, 2012, 09:32:10 PM »
Yeah, I think it's clear a this point that having not got the answer he wanted, zarg decided to ask a different question. Indeed, aside from being a clear strawman to begin with, zarg's  position not only fails on its own terms, but does not even carry weight in its new, restated terms. It's a nothing argument, going nowhere.


And you have to wonder, what point of value did he aim to make anyway?
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord