Why the earth can't be flat

Quote from: Graff on March 05, 2012, 11:06:29 AM

No, I simply mean to suddenly make a mistake of that scale, likely they ought to have a history of making mistakes of some form or another.

Why, in this day and age, were they not able to catch that, and edit it out?
Why, back when we first landed on the moon, when we did not have things such as photoshop, this not happen?

Why? Why can't this be their first mistake?

Because of the scale of it. Something that obvious should be caught instantly.
Look back; Find me an example of it in the Soviet Union. They ran so many missions, it'd be fairly likely at least one was fake.
Why weren't any of theirs so obvious? Why weren't any of the US's?

Also; how do you know this was a conspiracy fake?
What about the Chinese government?
It could've been completely unrelated to the Conspiracy.

What do you mean by First World?

From the Wiki page of First World --

Quote

"The concept of the First World first originated during the Cold War, where it was used to describe countries that were aligned with the United States."

At the time of its dissolution, the Soviet Union was the world's second largest economy.

Again, I must ask; Do you know nothing of the Soviet Union?

I don't think it's fake 

If they did that in water, they did an amazing job of it.  It'd be quite a feat to keep the water crystal clear the entire time.

Quote from: Lord Wilmore on March 05, 2012, 11:25:37 AM

Why can't this be their first mistake?

Because of the scale of it. Something that obvious should be caught instantly.
Look back; Find me an example of it in the Soviet Union. They ran so many missions, it'd be fairly likely at least one was fake.
Why weren't any of theirs so obvious? Why weren't any of the US's?

I don't know. But I don't see why this couldn't be their first mistake. After all, they were always going to have a 'first' mistake. I don't see why it had to be made by the U.S. or Soviet 'space programs'.

Also; how do you know this was a conspiracy fake?
What about the Chinese government?
It could've been completely unrelated to the Conspiracy.

Well, it was definitely "a conspiracy fake". Do we know if it was The Conspiracy? No. What it does show is that such a conspiracy is at least plausible.

Quote from: ClockTower on March 05, 2012, 11:23:43 AM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on March 05, 2012, 11:18:27 AM

The Soviet Union is a first world nation.

No, it is not.
1) The Soviet Union doesn't exist any longer.
2) When it did, it was a second world nation.

Reference: http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/second_world.htm

The definition of "first world" on that page is "anyone allied with the United States"

From the Wiki page of First World --

Quote

"The concept of the First World first originated during the Cold War, where it was used to describe countries that were aligned with the United States."

Quote

Since its original definition, the term First World has come to be largely synonymous with developed countries or highly developed countries

At the time of its dissolution, the Soviet Union was the world's second largest economy and one of the most developed countries in the world, and hence, First World.

So you admit that you're wrong in claim that the "Soviet Union is". Fine.

Now you want to use a definition of first world from after the Soviet collapse to refer to the Soviet Union. Sorry, you fail. Furthermore your cited article says: 

According to Nations Online the member countries of NATO after the Cold War included:

• Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, West Germany, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom and the United States.

The US aligned countries included:

• Israel, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan (ROC).

The neutral countries included:

• Austria, Finland, Ireland, Sweden and Switzerland.

The former British colonies also included in the First World were:

• Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the United States.

No Soviet Union there at all.

Quote from: Graff on March 05, 2012, 11:34:15 AM

Quote from: Lord Wilmore on March 05, 2012, 11:25:37 AM

Why can't this be their first mistake?

Because of the scale of it. Something that obvious should be caught instantly.
Look back; Find me an example of it in the Soviet Union. They ran so many missions, it'd be fairly likely at least one was fake.
Why weren't any of theirs so obvious? Why weren't any of the US's?

I don't know. But I don't see why this couldn't be their first mistake. After all, they were always going to have a 'first' mistake. I don't see why it had to be made by the U.S. or Soviet 'space programs'.

Quote from: Graff on March 05, 2012, 11:34:15 AM

Also; how do you know this was a conspiracy fake?
What about the Chinese government?
It could've been completely unrelated to the Conspiracy.

Well, it was definitely "a conspiracy fake". Do we know if it was The Conspiracy? No. What it does show is that such a conspiracy is at least plausible.

The reason I find it more likely to be one of the other space agencies, is two parts.
One; as they ran more missions, statistically, some of them should have such mistakes in them.
And two; Because back then we lacked the technology we have today, making such fakes easier.

Anywho, if you can't prove that this was a Conspiracy fake, then I s'pose it doesn't matter.

You need to review your outlandish claim and then tell me how the referenced analysis of a renown Ph. D. in the field is not a direct rebuttal of your outlandish claim: "Discover's/Bad Astronomy's rebuttals consist solely of "That's really silly" and "Yeeeeeah."" Surely, he is better than you in determining the expected motion of objects in microgravity than you. If you were better, no doubt you would have published that book of yours, and it would have already outsold Dr. Plait's bestseller: http://www.amazon.com/Death-Skies-These-Ways-World/dp/0670019976.

Phillip Plat is not "renown," and a children's book about the ways the world will end is not an academic affront to Earth Not a Globe.

Your point was that low wages in China resulted in poor quality products. Clearly the high-quality iPad is produced by low-wage workers in China. Please do pay attention.

Actually, my point was that China produces low quality engineers and the people there are generally of low skill.

China did not develop the iPad, or the process to create it. Apple and other western companies did. Chineese workers just do the repetitive labor to put the pieces together.

Is Apple hiring western engineers to design their products, or are they hiring Chinese engineers, who are surely cheaper? The answer is, of course, that they are hiring western engineers, because Chinese engineers are of low quality.

Quote from: ClockTower

Your point was that low wages in China resulted in poor quality products. Clearly the high-quality iPad is produced by low-wage workers in China. Please do pay attention.

Actually, my point was that China produces low quality engineers and the people there are generally of low skill.

China did not develop the iPad, or the process to create it. Apple and other western companies did. Chineese workers just do the repetitive labor to put the pieces together.

Is Apple hiring western engineers to design their products, or are they hiring Chinese engineers, who are surely cheaper? The answer is, of course, that they are hiring Western engineers, because Chinese engineers are of low quality.

Again, what of the Soviet Union?

Quote from: ClockTower

Your point was that low wages in China resulted in poor quality products. Clearly the high-quality iPad is produced by low-wage workers in China. Please do pay attention.

Actually, my point was that China produces low quality engineers and the people there are generally of low skill.

China did not develop the iPad, or the process to create it. Apple and other western companies did. Chineese workers just do the repetitive labor to put the pieces together.

Is Apple hiring western engineers to design their products, or are they hiring Chinese engineers, who are surely cheaper? The answer is, of course, that they are hiring Western engineers, because Chinese engineers are of low quality.

I think you're making a pretty big generalization about China here. China is the world's next emerging superpower, with a strong economy and military. While they're still communist, they are no longer some backwards third world nation. See this article for an example http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/09/is-china-really-new-superpower

Sure it's a huge country, with alot of poverty and unskilled workers, but guess what? So is America.
So I just don't really see where you get off saying that all Chinese workers and engineers are unskilled. That's like saying because one balloon is red, that means that all balloons everywhere must also be red.

Again, what of the Soviet Union?

What of them? The Soviet Union was a rich and developed nation where being poor meant that you had a secondary school education and one car instead of two.

Sure it's a huge country, with alot of poverty and unskilled workers, but guess what? So is America.

There aren't any unskilled workers in America. Being in poverty in America means that you went to high school and are literate. Literacy is a skill the poor of China do not have.

So I just don't really see where you get off saying that all Chinese workers and engineers are unskilled. That's like saying because one balloon is red, that means that all balloons everywhere must also be red.

Chineese workers and engineers are generally poorly educated and unskilled. China does not have a reputation for producing people of ingenuity, it has a reputation for its manual labor.

Quote from: Graff on March 05, 2012, 12:08:16 PM

Again, what of the Soviet Union?

What of them? The Soviet Union were a rich and developed nation where poor meant that you had a secondary school education and one car instead of two.

...
Erm, this is completely false.
Anyone who knows anything about the Soviet Union knows that.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on March 05, 2012, 12:21:28 PM

Quote from: Graff on March 05, 2012, 12:08:16 PM

Again, what of the Soviet Union?

What of them? The Soviet Union were a rich and developed nation where poor meant that you had a secondary school education and one car instead of two.

...
Erm, this is completely false.
Anyone who knows anything about the Soviet Union knows that.

http://englishrussia.com/2007/08/21/ussr-living-in-the-fifties/

Scroll down the page above and tell me that the people in these pictures are impoverished.

Quote from: Graff on March 05, 2012, 12:08:16 PM

Again, what of the Soviet Union?

What of them? The Soviet Union were a rich and developed nation where poor meant that you had a secondary school education and one car instead of two.

Quote from: areyouguysserious

Sure it's a huge country, with alot of poverty and unskilled workers, but guess what? So is America.

There aren't any unskilled workers in America. Being in poverty in America means that you went to high school and are literate. Literacy is a skill the impoverished Chinese don't have and will forever hold them back in life.

Quote

So I just don't really see where you get off saying that all Chinese workers and engineers are unskilled. That's like saying because one balloon is red, that means that all balloons everywhere must also be red.

Chineese workers and engineers are generally poorly educated and unskilled. China does not have a reputation for producing people of ingenuity, it has a reputation for its manual labor.

What in the world? Are you for real? It's with statements like that that you forever destroy any shred of credibility that you might have once had. What country do you live in? The UK, right? Well, I live in America and I can tell you without a doubt that poverty is rampant in the inner cities, also in extremely rural areas, such as on the Indian reservations where they barely eke out a living on welfare or social security. I bet it's like that in England too. You cannot be serious in expecting to be taken seriously when you talk out of your ass like that.

I agree with you that literacy in the rural Chinese villages is an issue, but you cannot assume that just because there are simple, rural villages in the country that adhere to the old ways of life that the entire country of two hundred plus million people is like that! You are insane!

Quote from: Graff on March 05, 2012, 12:25:42 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on March 05, 2012, 12:21:28 PM

Quote from: Graff on March 05, 2012, 12:08:16 PM

Again, what of the Soviet Union?

What of them? The Soviet Union were a rich and developed nation where poor meant that you had a secondary school education and one car instead of two.

...
Erm, this is completely false.
Anyone who knows anything about the Soviet Union knows that.

http://englishrussia.com/2007/08/21/ussr-living-in-the-fifties/

Scroll down the page above and tell me that the people in these pictures are impoverished.

Do I even have to say it?
Propaganda.
If this is honestly what you believe, you are incredibly gullible.

http://englishrussia.com/2007/08/21/ussr-living-in-the-fifties/

Scroll down the page above and tell me that the people in these pictures are impoverished.

That must have been taken during their 2 weeks of summer

What in the world? Are you for real? It's with statements like that that you forever destroy any shred of credibility that you might have once had. What country do you live in? The UK, right? Well, I live in America and I can tell you without a doubt that poverty is rampant in the inner cities, also in extremely rural areas, such as on the Indian reservations where they barely eke out a living on welfare or social security. I bet it's like that in England too. You cannot be serious in expecting to be taken seriously when you talk out of your ass like that.

Nope. Poverty in America is having a secondary school education, indoor plumbing, a car, refrigeration, etc. This is in stark contrast to what poverty is in other countries. In China the poor don't having a living at all. They are impoverished.

No one in America is impoverished (unless willfully). No one is held back by a lack of literacy. The poor of America are skilled and have a much better position in life than the poor of China.

Quote

http://englishrussia.com/2007/08/21/ussr-living-in-the-fifties/

Scroll down the page above and tell me that the people in these pictures are impoverished.

That must have been taken during their 2 weeks of summer

That, or in one of their southern countries.
Considering it isn't covered in mud, that is.
Funny thing is; in Russia, winter is actually one of the prettier seasons.

Quote from: areyouguysserious on March 05, 2012, 12:35:55 PM

What in the world? Are you for real? It's with statements like that that you forever destroy any shred of credibility that you might have once had. What country do you live in? The UK, right? Well, I live in America and I can tell you without a doubt that poverty is rampant in the inner cities, also in extremely rural areas, such as on the Indian reservations where they barely eke out a living on welfare or social security. I bet it's like that in England too. You cannot be serious in expecting to be taken seriously when you talk out of your ass like that.

Nope. Poverty in America is having a secondary school education, indoor plumbing, a car, refrigeration, etc. This is in stark contrast to what poverty is in other countries. In China the poor don't having a living at all. They are impoverished.

No one in America is impoverished (unless willfully). No one is held back by a lack of literacy. The poor of America are skilled and have a much better position in life than the poor of China.

They have secondary schools in China.  I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that they don't.

I'm also not sure what any of this has to do with Chinese engineers and skilled professionals, either.  Many of them train in the United States and other countries.  I've met plenty, even in Idaho.  It's rude and untrue to say they're second-rate.

Quote from: ClockTower

You need to review your outlandish claim and then tell me how the referenced analysis of a renown Ph. D. in the field is not a direct rebuttal of your outlandish claim: "Discover's/Bad Astronomy's rebuttals consist solely of "That's really silly" and "Yeeeeeah."" Surely, he is better than you in determining the expected motion of objects in microgravity than you. If you were better, no doubt you would have published that book of yours, and it would have already outsold Dr. Plait's bestseller: http://www.amazon.com/Death-Skies-These-Ways-World/dp/0670019976.

Phillip Plat is not "renown," and a children's book about the ways the world will end is not an academic affront to Earth Not a Globe.

A best selling author is not renown, really? The reference book is not a children's book. From the linked page: "Reading level: Ages 18 and up". Tom Bishop, please stop such obvious lies. You built a straw man. No one claimed that that book was "an academic affront to Earth Not a Globe". Please pay attention.

Quote from: ClockTower

Your point was that low wages in China resulted in poor quality products. Clearly the high-quality iPad is produced by low-wage workers in China. Please do pay attention.

Actually, my point was that China produces low quality engineers and the people there are generally of low skill.

China did not develop the iPad, or the process to create it. Apple and other western companies did. Chineese workers just do the repetitive labor to put the pieces together.

Is Apple hiring western engineers to design their products, or are they hiring Chinese engineers, who are surely cheaper? The answer is, of course, that they are hiring western engineers, because Chinese engineers are of low quality.

To remind you of what you actually posted:

Wages are notoriously low in China in any industry. Education is also lacking. China does everything cheaply. It only follows that they would be cheap on their fake space program as well.

Everything would include production of the iPad. They don't do that cheaply, thus your outlandish claim that they do "everything" cheaply is false.

They have secondary schools in China.  I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that they don't.

They also have palaces in China. But this fact has nothing to do with the topic of poverty in China. The poor people of China don't own palaces and they don't go to secondary school.

I'm also not sure what any of this has to do with Chinese engineers and skilled professionals, either.  Many of them train in the United States and other countries.  I've met plenty, even in Idaho.  It's rude and untrue to say they're second-rate.

If Engineers are as educated in China as they are here, then why are wealthy Chinese parents sending their children to the US to be educated? Surely those kids would do much better in a Chinese university than one in a foreign land. I don't see many US parents sending their kids off to universities in China. Wealthy Chinese parents are sending their children here because of the very fact that China's education system is in shambles.

Meeting a Chinese person who was educated in the US has no reflection on Chinese tertiary education. They came here because their family wanted a decent education for them.

Quote from: Cat Earth Theory on March 05, 2012, 01:03:08 PM

They have secondary schools in China.  I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that they don't.

They also have palaces in China. But this fact has nothing to do with the topic of poverty in China. The poor people of China don't own palaces and they don't go to secondary school.

Quote

I'm also not sure what any of this has to do with Chinese engineers and skilled professionals, either.  Many of them train in the United States and other countries.  I've met plenty, even in Idaho.  It's rude and untrue to say they're second-rate.

If Engineers are as educated in China as they are here, then why are wealthy Chinese parents sending their children to the US to be educated? Surely those kids would do much better in a Chinese university than one in a foreign land. I don't see many US parents sending their kids off to universities in China. They are sending their children here because of the very fact that China's education system is in shambles.

If you meet a Chinese person who was educated in the US, then they were not educated in China, and that person has no reflection on Chinese tertiary education.

It seems slightly ironic, you saying that, only just after claiming that there was no poverty in Russia.

If Engineers are as educated in China as they are here, then why are wealthy Chinese parents sending their children to the US to be educated? Surely those kids would do much better in a Chinese university than one in a foreign land. I don't see many US parents sending their kids off to universities in China. They are sending their children here because of the very fact that China's education system is in shambles.

Meeting a Chinese person who was educated in the US has no reflection on Chinese tertiary education. They came here because their family wanted a good education for them.

Uh, your point was that they have bad engineers and other professionals.  I'm just showing you that even if you think China has a bad education system there are still people being educated elsewhere.

Please support your claim that China is lacking in these skills or kindly apologize for your stupid statement.

The poor people of China ... don't go to secondary school.
...
 Chinese parents ... are sending their children [to the US] because of the very fact that China's education system is in shambles.

Please provide evidence of your outlandish claims. It's very strange what you consider a 'fact'. No evidence + supporting your argument = fact. Thousands of years of records + hundreds of years of theory and math + against your argument /= fact.

For example when Rowbotham presented just a few dozen observations regarding the causal link of low air pressure to high tide, you accept it. When we produce months of data from two diverse locations showing the link between the Moon's and Sun's positions and the tide, you reject it.

Come on Tom Bishop, wake up.

I like china.

Uh, your point was that they have bad engineers and other professionals.

If they come here to be educated, then they received an American education, they did not receive a Chinese one. It's a reflection on America, not China.

That's like saying "not all poor Africans are malnourished, I know someone who escaped the poverty of Africa to move to San Francisco and they eat perfectly fine every day!"

I'm just showing you that even if you think China has a bad education system there are still people being educated elsewhere.

Please support your claim that China is lacking in these skills or kindly apologize for your stupid statement.

Showing me that people are fleeing China to be educated elsewhere does not support the idea that China's doctors and engineers are being trained as well as ours.

Quote from: Cat Earth Theory on March 05, 2012, 01:54:46 PM

Uh, your point was that they have bad engineers and other professionals.

If they come here to be educated, then they received an American education, they did not receive a Chinese one. It's a reflection on America, not China.

That's like saying "not all poor Africans are malnourished, I know someone who escaped the poverty of Africa to move to San Francisco and they eat perfectly fine every day!"

Quote

I'm just showing you that even if you think China has a bad education system there are still people being educated elsewhere.

Please support your claim that China is lacking in these skills or kindly apologize for your stupid statement.

Showing me that people are fleeing China to be educated elsewhere does not support the idea that China's doctors and engineers are being trained as well as ours.

Ah, so no support for your ridiculous claim.  Excellent.

And the University of Idaho isn't the top of anything.  Most of the students I talked to came to the U.S. because they couldn't get into the schools in China, not because any American school would be better.

The reason I find it more likely to be one of the other space agencies, is two parts.
One; as they ran more missions, statistically, some of them should have such mistakes in them.
And two; Because back then we lacked the technology we have today, making such fakes easier.

One: Perhaps some did. Maybe Challenger/Columbia were simply unfortunate mistakes which happened to look good. Maybe not.

Two: Yes, but just as with budget concerns, any lack of technology with regard to 'fakery' is compensated for by a lack of technology when it comes to presenting evidence. In other words, they had less to fake with, but a lot less to fake.

Anywho, if you can't prove that this was a Conspiracy fake, then I s'pose it doesn't matter.

And if I could, you'd no doubt tell me that if The Conspiracy is so powerful, it wouldn't make such silly mistakes.

And if I could, you'd no doubt tell me that if The Conspiracy is so powerful, it wouldn't make such silly mistakes.

And if people point out the lack of evidence for any conspiracy, the power of the conspiracy is invoked as an excuse.  This is a trap of your own making.

On the contrary: it's a trap you have made for yourselves. You are the ones being argumentatively inconsistent, not us. I am happy to hold the position that The Conspiracy has made some mistakes, but would not exist if it made hugely compromising mistakes.


In contrast, you guys simultaneously argue that there should be evidence of huge compromising mistakes, but that there couldn't possibly be small mistakes if there aren't any big ones. Go figure.

On the contrary: it's a trap you have made for yourselves. You are the ones being argumentatively inconsistent, not us. I am happy to hold the position that The Conspiracy has made some mistakes, but would not exist if it made hugely compromising mistakes.


In contrast, you guys simultaneously argue that there should be evidence of huge compromising mistakes, but that there couldn't possibly be small mistakes if there aren't any big ones. Go figure.

Sigh, alright, let's start fresh.

The problem with The Conspiracy is it can't be proven, and it also can't be disproven.  It's a dead-end for any argument.

So I know I can't disprove it, but let me ask you, do you really think it's likely?  Has there ever been any other conspiracy of this extent?  Were there others, but we never heard about them because they were so good at covering it up?

I'm just wondering why a seemingly sensible person like yourself is willing to go down this paranoid rabbit hole.  Have you taken a good look at the believer's forum?  Many of the posters there don't seem like healthy people.

I'm not trying to be mean, but it's concerning to me that these people are being encouraged and validated.  Are they living happy lives?  Are they connected with other people outside the internet?  What toll is this work taking on them?

I asked a lot of questions, sorry about that.

Well, I can only speak for myself and say that yes, I am a fairly healthy person (the odd bit of stomach trouble aside). I have a good personal and social life, I am doing very well at university, and I have recently been appointed Vice President of the Flat Earth Society. Things really couldn't be much better!


The reason many of us believe in The Conspiracy is not due to paranoia or any such thing, but because it seems like a logically necessary consequence of belief in a flat Earth. If you believe that the Earth is flat, then you simply cannot take the claims of NASA et al. at face value. They are either incredibly, unbelievably wrong, or they are lying. Given the nature and scale of their claims, I find the former hard to believe.