Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation

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Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« on: September 17, 2010, 11:45:13 AM »
Regarding the FAQ for Coriolis Effect, it only addresses a small portion of it.

Q: "How come when I flush my toilet in the northern hemisphere it goes counterclockwise but I have this friend in Australia and when he flushes it goes clockwise?"
A: You are mistaken. The Coriolis effect adds at most one (counter)clockwise rotation per day, and fewer as you get closer to the equator. The water in your toilet spins much faster than that (at least once per minute, or 1440 times per day), so the additional or lost rotation from the Coriolis effect would not be noticed.

So with that statement, I am concluding you DO believe in the Coriolis effect, only it's very weak. But, lets be serious here. Given that toilets are on a very small scale, designs and other various things can easily overcome the effect. Look on a much grander scale. Take cyclones for example. They spin counter clockwise in the Northern, and clockwise in the Southern. This does not have to do with the fact that you get turned 180 degrees when you move across the Equator. If you were to theoretically jump out of an airplane over a cyclone in the Northern, and then again over one in the Southern and stay there for a day; you would see clearly they rotate oppositely. What is clearly making a cyclone in the Southern hemisphere rotate clockwise? (More on this in the videos).

As I said earlier, that is only a small portion of the Coriolis effect. What about trajectories over long distances? Take for example a sniper, who shoots at his target +1 mile away in the Northern hemisphere. His crosshairs are between the eyes - with no calibrations to his scope, he will hit his target below and to the right. We understand the below part here, be it gravity or UA as some of you believe here. What about the right part? Now lets adjust that scope. You aim high for gravity, then you aim a little bit left to account for the wind. You fire again...and the bullet STILL misses to the right. Why is the bullet missing!?! It's because of the Coriolis effect. Objects in the Northern hemisphere are deflected right as viewed from the original movement (vice verse in the Southern).

When have a trajectory traveling long distances, you have to take into account of the rotation of the Earth! If you are in the military, specifically artillery or a sniper, you HAVE to learn about this (granted computers do the math now, you still have to manually plug in your coordinates). As the bullet or artillery shell is traveling through the air, it is not affect by the rotation of the Earth, but your target still is. In that distance, and when the bullet or shell exits the barrel to when it reaches its target; the target will have moved, be it ever so slightly (snipers) or over great distances (artillery).

I'll give you two accounts where the Coriolis effect played a crucial effect in history. First, the Battle of the Falkland Islands during WW1. When the British entered combat with the German navy, the British shells kept missing. Shell after shell into the water. ~1000 shells later, someone smart decided, oh it's because we didn't reverse our Coriolis coordinates! Nearly ALL of those 1000 shells missed the German boats by 10 miles+ to the left as they still had their old Coriolis coordinates in the Northern hemisphere where you aim left of your target, but in the Southern, you have to aim to the right.

Another part is the infamous Paris Gun. I'll give you an excerpt.
The Paris gun was used to shell Paris at a range of 120 km (75 miles). The distance was so far that the Coriolis effect  — the rotation of the Earth — was substantial enough to affect trajectory calculations. The gun was fired at an azimuth of 232 degrees (west-southwest) from Crépy-en Laon, which was at a latitude of 49.5 degrees North. The gunners had to account for the fact that the projectiles landed to the right of where they would have hit if there were no Coriolis effect.

In summary of all this, to an observer on the ground, it would appear that the object, be it a cyclone or a bullet/artillery shell is curving left or right, when in actuality your trajectory is straight. To an observer ABOVE the plane of the Earth, that object is to be going in a straight line. THE ONLY THING THAT CAN CAUSE THE CORIOLIS EFFECT IS THE ROTATION OF A ROUND EARTH. So, regarding the FAQ, you believe in the effect (unless it's worded wrong). So therefor you HAVE to believe the Earth is rotating (and that it's round, it goes hand in hand).

*Also, from the FAQ again: you are saying the effect becomes less important as you are getting closer to the equator. So essentially it gets more important as you get farther away from the Equator. This is essentially saying the Earth is indeed round, as with the rotation of the round Earth, objects farther away from the Equator travel deflect left and right more than than an object on the Equator. FET essentially just proved itself wrong by saying they don't disprove of the Coriolis effect.*

Couple videos on it if you are having trouble. Highly regard watching these videos. All of them are no longer than 2 minutes.





« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 05:16:53 PM by JamesJamie »

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2010, 05:17:15 PM »
Maybe I haven't made myself clear. You need an object spinning to create the Coriolis effect, and a sphere to create the difference of the effect (greater the farther north/south you go from the equator).

I'm pretty sure this proves the rotation, and if not that the Earth is round. Pretty big flaw you guys have there...

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Thork

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2010, 05:39:12 PM »
Just a thought, but if the earth was round and flat like a plate and spinning in space with its own gravity, would that not give the same effects as a Coriolis? Any liquid on the surface would be driven round by the same force.

And lets just say that plate was two sided like a coin, would that not make fluids on the opposite side, turn the opposite direction? As for strength this would be increased the further from the centre of coin you go, like going up and down the latitudes. Toroidal shapes would give similar results.

I'm not sure Coriolis proves shape. Merely spinning and a distance from the core or centre of spin.

Good post though. Lots of interesting stuff in there.

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2010, 11:25:25 PM »
Just a thought, but if the earth was round and flat like a plate and spinning in space with its own gravity, would that not give the same effects as a Coriolis? Any liquid on the surface would be driven round by the same force.

And lets just say that plate was two sided like a coin, would that not make fluids on the opposite side, turn the opposite direction? As for strength this would be increased the further from the centre of coin you go, like going up and down the latitudes. Toroidal shapes would give similar results.

I'm not sure Coriolis proves shape. Merely spinning and a distance from the core or centre of spin.

Good post though. Lots of interesting stuff in there.

But here lies where the FET falls apart. FET does not believe in a rotating Earth. Also, if on a flat plane as you said, you would not have the reverse in the other hemisphere.

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Thork

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2010, 02:07:19 PM »
Hey, I only ever said the earth was flat. I never said whether it spun or not. Just because I share a common belief that the earth is flat doesn't mean I share every other crackpot idea on this site. Of course it may be that they are right and I am wrong. Your example only suggests spin.

However magnetism would create a similar effect on a bullet if it was ferrous (which most are being made of steel). It would make it bend.
Prevailing wind would obviously move a bullet. Trade winds send the bullet the same direction - ie west from the equator or to the right as you explained in your first post. They lose strength as you leave the equator. Geography for kids proves this.  ;)
http://www.kidsgeo.com/geography-for-kids/0094-trade-winds.php
Also, guns are rifled. This makes the bullet itself spin. As Beckham will tell you, when you put spin on something, that also effects its trajectory.
However Trade winds or magnetism or the 'Beckham' factor on a flat earth or any shape, spinning or not, would give the same results as you submit.

So not only am I still in doubt as to whether the earth is round, in fact I'm quite sure its flat, I'm now doubting whether it spins or not. Your not helping.  :P


Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2010, 04:40:23 PM »
Hey, I only ever said the earth was flat. I never said whether it spun or not. Just because I share a common belief that the earth is flat doesn't mean I share every other crackpot idea on this site. Of course it may be that they are right and I am wrong. Your example only suggests spin.

However magnetism would create a similar effect on a bullet if it was ferrous (which most are being made of steel). It would make it bend.
Prevailing wind would obviously move a bullet. Trade winds send the bullet the same direction - ie west from the equator or to the right as you explained in your first post. They lose strength as you leave the equator. Geography for kids proves this.  ;)
http://www.kidsgeo.com/geography-for-kids/0094-trade-winds.php
Also, guns are rifled. This makes the bullet itself spin. As Beckham will tell you, when you put spin on something, that also effects its trajectory.
However Trade winds or magnetism or the 'Beckham' factor on a flat earth or any shape, spinning or not, would give the same results as you submit.

So not only am I still in doubt as to whether the earth is round, in fact I'm quite sure its flat, I'm now doubting whether it spins or not. Your not helping.  :P

I'll break this down, it can't be magnetism because the effect is still shown on Tungsten shells and other non magnetic materials. And you are wrong, most bullets are made of mostly copper, zinc and lead alloys (which have very, very weak magnetic influence). I love how you assume and use it as fact that bullets are made of steel.

The trade winds are going that way because...you guessed it! Coriolis effect! So saying the winds are a factor is just proving my point further. However, lets say you account for the wind speed, and aim accordingly. You will still miss the target.

Now for the rifling point. There are three crucial points I want to make.
1.) If rifling causes the bullet to move, WHY...WHY do we consider rifling a major advancement in accuracy!?!? Makes no mother****ing sense. We should have stuck with smoothbore's.
2.) Modern artillery does not use rifling. And their projectiles fire tens of miles, if not more. Still, those munitions are being drawn offcourse by the Coriolis effect.
3.) Rifling, as I said earlier increases accuracy because of the conservation of angular momentum. The spinning PREVENTS the bullet from curving. Crude diagram explaining it http://i27.tinypic.com/2s9ximt.jpg  The reason "bend it like Beckham" works is because the soccer ball or baseball has grooves on it, deflecting the air causing various ways for the ball to "bend".

On a flat Earth, the Coriolis effect should be constant wherever you go. This is not the case. Stronger as you go North and South, and a reverse direction points to the Earths rotation, and that of being a sphere!

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Thork

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2010, 06:25:59 PM »
Mmmmm. some food for thought there. I still have a few issues with it though.  ;)

First I want to clear up the rifling business. You say we consider rifling a major advancement in accuracy, but then in the very next sentence, you say modern artillery does not use rifling. Then you flip back to saying it increases angular momentum? So is rifling good for keeping things straight, and if so, why don't they use it in modern artillery? Surely that would be a step back? Whilst we are on the subject of artillery ....
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1981STIN...8214395P
Seems steel is as popular as ever. Google 'Bethlehem Steel Corporation' and the word 'artillery'. Been using steel a long time.
Steel for shells, steel for the casings, steel for the shrapnel inside and hardened steel for the pointy bit at the front, to pierce armour.

Whoah there! You can't just say the trade winds are caused by Coriolis.
http://www.weatherquestions.com/What_causes_wind.htm
No mention of Coriolis to generate wind there. Wind is quite capable of existing without Coriolis.

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2010, 08:56:53 PM »
Mmmmm. some food for thought there. I still have a few issues with it though.  ;)

First I want to clear up the rifling business. You say we consider rifling a major advancement in accuracy, but then in the very next sentence, you say modern artillery does not use rifling. Then you flip back to saying it increases angular momentum? So is rifling good for keeping things straight, and if so, why don't they use it in modern artillery? Surely that would be a step back? Whilst we are on the subject of artillery ....
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1981STIN...8214395P
Seems steel is as popular as ever. Google 'Bethlehem Steel Corporation' and the word 'artillery'. Been using steel a long time.
Steel for shells, steel for the casings, steel for the shrapnel inside and hardened steel for the pointy bit at the front, to pierce armour.

Whoah there! You can't just say the trade winds are caused by Coriolis.
http://www.weatherquestions.com/What_causes_wind.htm
No mention of Coriolis to generate wind there. Wind is quite capable of existing without Coriolis.


you might want to work on the physics of what causes wind. ;) To make this more clear, wind wouldn't be the same on FE as it is on RE. And this is especially true if you go by the UA model. So you need to actually debunk what generates trade winds, or many other kinds of winds that are in accordance to the RE model.

FE T-shirts = Profit = conspiracy = ideological cult in the making = teaching stupid = paranoia = nut case. Any questions?

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2010, 02:12:31 AM »
Mmmmm. some food for thought there. I still have a few issues with it though.  ;)

First I want to clear up the rifling business. You say we consider rifling a major advancement in accuracy, but then in the very next sentence, you say modern artillery does not use rifling. Then you flip back to saying it increases angular momentum? So is rifling good for keeping things straight, and if so, why don't they use it in modern artillery? Surely that would be a step back? Whilst we are on the subject of artillery ....
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1981STIN...8214395P
Seems steel is as popular as ever. Google 'Bethlehem Steel Corporation' and the word 'artillery'. Been using steel a long time.
Steel for shells, steel for the casings, steel for the shrapnel inside and hardened steel for the pointy bit at the front, to pierce armour.

Whoah there! You can't just say the trade winds are caused by Coriolis.
http://www.weatherquestions.com/What_causes_wind.htm
No mention of Coriolis to generate wind there. Wind is quite capable of existing without Coriolis.

Lol, way to bend my words. First, rifling doesn't exist in artillery because we have this technology called laser guided bomb or JDAM. You can't fire a shell with those fitted on it. It launches the shell miles into the atmosphere, then it deploys its "flaps" to guide the missile/shell to its location. They also use smoothebores as rifling reduces kinetic energy. Read up more before calling me out on something.

In the modern everyday guns, most bullets are copper, aluminum, and lead alloys. Modern armor piercing rounds (or SABOT) are almost exclusively Tungsten or Depleted Uranium. Sure there are a few steel ones, but to say "been popular as ever" and "Been using for a long time" are misleading. Of course we have been using steel for a long time, that's a no brainer, and yes, it IS popular in projectiles. But...it has lost its touch here in the USA. However, even if I am wrong...no lets say I AM wrong on that they are not tungsten or DU, and infact steel. Still doesn't account for the fact that other projectiles that aren't magnetic are subject to the Coriolis effect.

I didn't say trade winds are caused by the Coriolis effect, I said their apparent movement and direction are because of the Coriolis effect. Hence why cyclones spin the opposite direction in the southern hemisphere.

P.S, lol that link talks about the Coriolis effect in the first paragraph dude.

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2010, 02:25:41 AM »
didn't we just have a thread about this?

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2010, 06:02:57 PM »
Quote
However magnetism would create a similar effect on a bullet if it was ferrous (which most are being made of steel). It would make it bend.

At such velocities that magnetism would have to be rather potent. And do you know the magnetic properties of Earth, or it's magnetic field? Perhaps you can consider a polar opposite effect under this premise could allow for a unlimited range projectile. The other problem with this argument is wouldn't the magnetic attraction only generate a downward attraction. And to get the same effect every time doesn't make sense either. Hence, corrections being made for RE is relevant the the rotation of the Earth and direction of rotation relative to the position and facing direction of the artillery gun. So how would FE be consistent with RE, especially considering ones longitude and latitude? You do realize the effect differs as you get closer to the equator vs further away from it?   
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 07:05:06 PM by TheJackel »
FE T-shirts = Profit = conspiracy = ideological cult in the making = teaching stupid = paranoia = nut case. Any questions?

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Thork

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2010, 06:31:43 PM »
Quote
At such velocities that magnetism would have to be rather potent.
At such velocities the Coriolis would have to be rather potent.

Quote
Perhaps you can consider a polar opposite effect under this premise could allow for a unlimited range projectile.
What? I said it could bend it the few millimetres you described. Not drag it round the earth ad infinitum.

Quote
The other problem with this argument is wouldn't the magnetic attraction only generate a downward attraction.
Nope, compass needles aren't dragged down. They move left and right.

Quote
You do realize the effect differs as you get closer to the equator vs further away from it?
What part of I don't believe in this crazy Coriolis notion don't you understand?

By the way, is Coriolis your new word for the day? This is the 3rd thread I have seen you start on the subject. We get it. You like the idea. You've read something about it recently and want to tell everyone you have heard of it. Super. Maybe next week you'll read about the jet stream and we will all be treated to several copy and paste renditions of that too.

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2010, 06:38:41 PM »
Quote
The other problem with this argument is wouldn't the magnetic attraction only generate a downward attraction.
Nope, compass needles aren't dragged down. They move left and right.
Wrong again... Please lurk moar.

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compass#Compass_balancing
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2010, 08:12:48 PM »
Thork, did you just skip over what I just posted? My whole entire argument refutes what you just posted, and you can actually test and prove everything I just said. If I launch a heavy plastic ball like an artillery shell, it will still move off course like that of a metal shell. Magnetism has NOTHING to do with this, nothing at all.

And, I am posting this as because it: proves the rotation of the Earth which most FE'ers say the Earth doesn't, void of all the conspiracy theories out there FE'ers create as a fog to hide in, and can be empirically tested and verified numerous times with the same result.

It also proves the shape of the Earth to a lesser extent. If the Earth was a flat plane and rotating, the Coriolis effect would be a constant effect in the same direction wherever you go, but it turns out it not only reverses in the southern hemisphere, but becomes dramatically weaker closer to the Equator, which proves Earth isn't flat.

It seems it's true, as most of the FE'ers aren't touching this post even with a 10 ft pole. So until I get some actual evidence from them that contradicts what I've just stated, I will continue to post this. Can't pick and choose what you believe in to fit you theories guys.

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Euclid

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Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2010, 08:19:58 PM »
The Coriolis effect can be explained by the gravitomagnetic effect of the rotating heavens.
Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist
Yes, thanks to the tireless efforts of Euclid and a few other mathematically-inclined members, electromagnetic acceleration is fast moving into the forefront of FE research.
8)

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2010, 08:29:22 PM »
The Coriolis effect can be explained by the gravitomagnetic effect of the rotating heavens.

I suggest you google gravimeter data and accelerometer data lol.  8)


Any takers on the coordinate system that's used for navigation? Hint: it's not compatible with the FE model :P
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 08:32:34 PM by TheJackel »
FE T-shirts = Profit = conspiracy = ideological cult in the making = teaching stupid = paranoia = nut case. Any questions?

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2010, 08:31:30 PM »
...What?

First please explain what you are saying, anyone can throw out a word.

Second, please present your evidence to support why you believe the gravitomagnetic effect of the rotating heavens explains this phenomenon.

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Euclid

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Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2010, 08:36:02 PM »
The Coriolis effect can be explained by the gravitomagnetic effect of the rotating heavens.

I suggest you google gravimeter data and accelerometer data lol.  8)

Gravimeters and accelerometers don't measure velocity-dependent forces associated with the Coriolis effect and gravitomagnetism.

...What?

First please explain what you are saying, anyone can throw out a word.

Second, please present your evidence to support why you believe the gravitomagnetic effect of the rotating heavens explains this phenomenon.

According to General Relativity, frame-dragging occurs around a rotating mass (the heavens).  Frame-dragging reproduces all of the effects associated with a rotating reference frame including the Coriolis effect.
Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist
Yes, thanks to the tireless efforts of Euclid and a few other mathematically-inclined members, electromagnetic acceleration is fast moving into the forefront of FE research.
8)

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2010, 09:49:42 PM »
The Coriolis effect can be explained by the gravitomagnetic effect of the rotating heavens.

I suggest you google gravimeter data and accelerometer data lol.  8)

Gravimeters and accelerometers don't measure velocity-dependent forces associated with the Coriolis effect and gravitomagnetism.

...What?

First please explain what you are saying, anyone can throw out a word.

Second, please present your evidence to support why you believe the gravitomagnetic effect of the rotating heavens explains this phenomenon.

According to General Relativity, frame-dragging occurs around a rotating mass (the heavens).  Frame-dragging reproduces all of the effects associated with a rotating reference frame including the Coriolis effect.
That's not evidence, that's making shit up lol

And secondly you fail at understanding why I asked you to google gravimeter data and accelerometer data ;)
FE T-shirts = Profit = conspiracy = ideological cult in the making = teaching stupid = paranoia = nut case. Any questions?

*

parsec

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Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2010, 10:34:02 PM »
Sometimes I need to flush my toilet twice. Does this mean that the Earth is not rotating?

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2010, 10:42:12 PM »
Sometimes I need to flush my toilet twice. Does this mean that the Earth is not rotating?

Stop clogging the toilet ;)

FE T-shirts = Profit = conspiracy = ideological cult in the making = teaching stupid = paranoia = nut case. Any questions?

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Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2010, 10:42:44 PM »
I don't even use toilet paper.

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markjo

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Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2010, 10:49:07 PM »
I don't even use toilet paper.

Too...  much...  information.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2010, 10:50:39 PM »
I don't even use toilet paper.

Damn them are big Logs you are dropping lol.. Sounds like you need a plumber :P
FE T-shirts = Profit = conspiracy = ideological cult in the making = teaching stupid = paranoia = nut case. Any questions?

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Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2010, 10:54:28 PM »
I don't even use toilet paper.

Damn them are big Logs you are dropping lol.. Sounds like you need a plumber :P

The plumber that used to maintain my household's plumbing system is dead. A log dropped cause he was deaf and couldn't hear the 'Timbeeeer'.

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2010, 12:06:05 AM »
I don't even use toilet paper.

Damn them are big Logs you are dropping lol.. Sounds like you need a plumber :P

The plumber that used to maintain my household's plumbing system is dead. A log dropped cause he was deaf and couldn't hear the 'Timbeeeer'.

MURDERER! PLUMBER KILLER!
FE T-shirts = Profit = conspiracy = ideological cult in the making = teaching stupid = paranoia = nut case. Any questions?

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2010, 12:07:39 AM »
*Slowly backs away from thread*

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2010, 03:06:32 AM »
*Slowly backs away from thread*

Don't worry, I drop JDAMs down the Toilet daily :P.. LOL


Seriously, You are correct in regards to the OP. :)
FE T-shirts = Profit = conspiracy = ideological cult in the making = teaching stupid = paranoia = nut case. Any questions?

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2010, 06:16:55 PM »
JDAM's? Psshhtt my toilet is Bikini Atoll every time I pop a squat.

And yes, I am correct. The FE'ers can't argue it very well as it seems they ignore this thread.

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Thork

Re: Coriolis Effect Proves Earth's Rotation
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2010, 12:39:27 PM »
Quote
The FE'ers can't argue it very well as it seems they ignore this thread

No, we are only interested in the easy ones to prove, like shrimp on the moon, bendy light and the moon's harmful effects on people.