Question for you guys about light.

If I understand correctly, as particles, photons go up and down as they travel through space, or at least they are found to be on the classical shape of a wave. And that the angle of oscillation is normally random.

A) is this angle quantized or infinite, like is there say 1000 max possibilities, or infinite?

B) If it is infinite, isn't the amount of light that can pass through a filter relatively zero? because I thought only the ones lined up exactly are allowed to pass. so if the filter was set at 0degrees with respect to the floor, the light with the electric field oscillating at 99.9999999999... other angles would be stopped

First off, the photons don't really "go up and down", the wave shape is due to the orientation of the electric and magnetic fields.

About filters: it doesn't have to be exact for the photons to get through, the component that is pointed in the right direction is what makes it through.

Say you have a filter oriented vertically, and some photons oriented 45 degrees to vertical. Half that light would make it through, and the other half would be blocked. The vertical components of the vectors is what gets through.

photons go up and down as they travel through space

I lol'd. Please read up on wave-particle duality and make yourself appear less ignorant.

And yet a photon can have left or right circular polarisation. Is is possible that linearly polarisation is an ensemble property.

I for one have always wondered if it's possible to split an EM wave into it's component waves (Electric and Magnetic) and draw power from the electric wave.

Quote from: Thevoiceofreason on August 08, 2010, 12:58:17 AM

photons go up and down as they travel through space

I lol'd. Please read up on wave-particle duality and make yourself appear less ignorant.

Maybe that's why I'm asking a question.

First off, the photons don't really "go up and down", the wave shape is due to the orientation of the electric and magnetic fields.

About filters: it doesn't have to be exact for the photons to get through, the component that is pointed in the right direction is what makes it through.

Say you have a filter oriented vertically, and some photons oriented 45 degrees to vertical. Half that light would make it through, and the other half would be blocked. The vertical components of the vectors is what gets through.

so if photons go straight, then why do some get mechanically blocked?
In your example, the filter is a vertical slit right?


and as an addendum, if photons don't oscillate, why does blu-ray give us higher resolution on the disc image?
I realize that higher frequency=/= narrower beam

I for one have always wondered if it's possible to split an EM wave into it's component waves (Electric and Magnetic) and draw power from the electric wave.

No, it isn't.

Maybe that's why I'm asking a question.

The questions you're asking reveal a fundamental misunderstanding of what light is. You would be better off reading a physics textbook or enrolling in a physics course than asking us to explain a semester's worth of material to you.

Quote from: Lorddave on August 08, 2010, 02:29:39 PM

I for one have always wondered if it's possible to split an EM wave into it's component waves (Electric and Magnetic) and draw power from the electric wave.

No, it isn't.

Why?
A photon or Wave has energy.  Why isn't it possible to extract that energy?

Why?
A photon or Wave has energy.  Why isn't it possible to extract that energy?

It is possible. Perhaps you've heard of solar panels, or photosynthesis?

What's not possible is separating an electromagnetic wave into electric and magnetic waves.

Quote from: Parsifal on August 08, 2010, 07:59:54 PM

Quote from: Lorddave on August 08, 2010, 02:29:39 PM

I for one have always wondered if it's possible to split an EM wave into it's component waves (Electric and Magnetic) and draw power from the electric wave.

No, it isn't.

Why?
A photon or Wave has energy.  Why isn't it possible to extract that energy?

It is possible to "extract" the energy from a photon, but splitting up the components isn't an option, you're better off using a solar cell or something. An electric field creates a perpendicular magnetic field, and vice versa, so they each allow the other to exist. So it may be possible in principle, but it is probably impractical. Not entirely sure because I never learned anything about the possibility of splitting the fields.

Then which comes first?
I know that an EM wave/Photon is created when an electron falls from a higher energy state to a lower one but does it generate an electric wave or a magnetic wave?

Then which comes first?
I know that an EM wave/Photon is created when an electron falls from a higher energy state to a lower one but does it generate an electric wave or a magnetic wave?

Both.

Then which comes first?
I know that an EM wave/Photon is created when an electron falls from a higher energy state to a lower one but does it generate an electric wave or a magnetic wave?

There's no such thing as an "electric wave" or a "magnetic wave", only an electromagnetic wave.

Quote from: Lorddave on August 08, 2010, 10:43:07 PM

Then which comes first?
I know that an EM wave/Photon is created when an electron falls from a higher energy state to a lower one but does it generate an electric wave or a magnetic wave?

There's no such thing as an "electric wave" or a "magnetic wave", only an electromagnetic wave.

Ah.
You're right, now that I think about it since the movement of one automatically generates the other.

Quote from: Parsifal on August 08, 2010, 05:49:07 AM

Quote from: Thevoiceofreason on August 08, 2010, 12:58:17 AM

photons go up and down as they travel through space

I lol'd. Please read up on wave-particle duality and make yourself appear less ignorant.

Maybe that's why I'm asking a question.

I have to agree.  There shouldn't be any reason to laugh at one willing to learn.  On the other hand, reading literature is important.

Quote from: Lorddave on August 08, 2010, 10:43:07 PM

Then which comes first?
I know that an EM wave/Photon is created when an electron falls from a higher energy state to a lower one but does it generate an electric wave or a magnetic wave?

There's no such thing as an "electric wave" or a "magnetic wave", only an electromagnetic wave.

Never heard of plasma waves (electric) or Alfven waves (magnetic)?

I for one have always wondered if it's possible to split an EM wave into it's component waves (Electric and Magnetic) and draw power from the electric wave.

You can't split the magnetic and electric parts of an EM wave, as EM waves are such that the electric part induces the magnetic part and vice versa. You can draw power from EM waves as is done in radio antennas for example.

Quote from: Lorddave on August 08, 2010, 02:29:39 PM

I for one have always wondered if it's possible to split an EM wave into it's component waves (Electric and Magnetic) and draw power from the electric wave.

No, it isn't.

Quote from: Thevoiceofreason on August 08, 2010, 05:56:07 PM

Maybe that's why I'm asking a question.

The questions you're asking reveal a fundamental misunderstanding of what light is. You would be better off reading a physics textbook or enrolling in a physics course than asking us to explain a semester's worth of material to you.

Well isn't it great that I am enrolling in  a physics course at my first semester of college next year?

So I guess the proper question here is why does the filter block some light but not the other?

what does GD mean by the vertical component?

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/vectpart.html

so if a bunch of light waves whose electric component are going 45 degrees to the vertical, and the slit is verticle, when do only 50% get through?

Quote from: General Disarray on August 09, 2010, 11:24:16 AM

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/vectpart.html

so if a bunch of light waves whose electric component are going 45 degrees to the vertical, and the slit is verticle, when do only 50% get through?

Half the wave gets through.

Thevoiceofreason, you are mixing up the particle and wave natures of light when they are entirely distinct. You will understand this a lot better after taking a physics course, but until then you can save yourself a lot of wasted keystrokes by not asking questions based on things you don't understand at all.

Quote from: Thevoiceofreason on August 10, 2010, 01:55:32 PM

Quote from: General Disarray on August 09, 2010, 11:24:16 AM

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/vectpart.html

so if a bunch of light waves whose electric component are going 45 degrees to the vertical, and the slit is verticle, when do only 50% get through?

Half the wave gets through.

yeah I get that, but I'm asking how, because sites like this http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/light/u12l1e.cfm
use an example where there are only two directions that the wave points in, but we know that there are many more.
It would halve you think that filters are like cheese craters, cutting out a slice of the wave that only fits. but are you saying that the wave
A) might go through even if it isn't exactly lined up? aka 50% chance for a wave 45 degrees to the slit.
B) no matter how they entered, if they make it through, they will come out in that precise direction?

Thevoiceofreason, you are mixing up the particle and wave natures of light when they are entirely distinct. You will understand this a lot better after taking a physics course, but until then you can save yourself a lot of wasted keystrokes by not asking questions based on things you don't understand at all.

I'm sorry king Parsitroll if my ignorance is offending you. But If you find it so taxing, why are you in my thread?

I'm sorry king Parsitroll if my ignorance is offending you. But If you find it so taxing, why are you in my thread?

I'm trying to help you not waste your own time asking things that don't make any sense to ask.

Quote from: Thevoiceofreason on August 10, 2010, 11:23:54 PM

I'm sorry king Parsitroll if my ignorance is offending you. But If you find it so taxing, why are you in my thread?

I'm trying to help you not waste your own time asking things that don't make any sense to ask.

How does asking about how polarization works not make any sense? And its not wasting time if I learn the answer

How does asking about how polarization works not make any sense? And its not wasting time if I learn the answer

Asking about photons going up and down, and "a bunch of light waves" is what makes no sense. Most of us would be happy to provide clarification on minor points, or a pointer in the right direction, but FES is not a physics classroom.

The way we test to see if it is a particle is to see if it has mass.  To do this we test to see if it has momentum.  When the EM Wave hits an atom, some of the momentum is transferred to the atom and the rest is reflected back.  The energy doesn't get reflected back exactly though.  Instead the atom absorbs all the energy, the electrons go into a higher energy state, then the electrons drop back down, releasing some of the energy back.  This is what reflection is.  Now, when the atom ejected the energy it acted like a rocket engine or gas thruster and pushed the atom in the opposite direction very, very, very slightly. 

There's a ... device in which a spinner connected to 4 pads sits in a vacuum sealed container.  The pads face forward but can spin around a central shaft.  Each pad has white painted on one side and black on the other.  When hit with EM energy, the pads begin to move.  The white side, which reflect the most energy, move when the light hits it. The black side, which reflect the least energy, don't move as much so the momentum of the white sides aren't slowed as much.

And that is why, as far as I know, EM energy is both a photon and a wave: It's a wave that can generate momentum.

wat