Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.

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ClockTower

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #240 on: July 07, 2010, 06:01:51 PM »
84. If we move away from an elevated object on or over a plain or a prairie, the height of the object will apparently diminish as we do so. Now, that which is sufficient to produce this effect on a small scale is sufficient on a large one; and traveling away from an elevated object, no matter how far will cause the appearance in question - the lowering of the object. Our modern theoretical astronomers, however, in the case of the apparent lowering of the North Star as we travel southward, assert that it is evidence that the Earth is globular! But as it is clear that an appearance which is fully, accounted for on the basis of known facts cannot be permitted to figure as evidence in favor of that which is only a supposition, it follows that we rightfully order it to stand down, and make way for a proof that the Earth is not a globe.

Alas, the premise fails. Polaris is not on or over a plain or prairie, but rather 430 light years from any known prairie. Without the premise, the proof fails. Simply put Polaris is so far away that moving a quarter of the way around the Earth would have no discernible perspective effect.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #241 on: July 07, 2010, 07:00:49 PM »
okay i just had to reply here. I am not a believer of flat earth or round earth really. Neither one has shown solid proof but the facts here need not be ignored.

 No disrespect Clocktower but 80% of your "disproofs" were, "He has no proof so he is wrong"  You barely showed any evidence whatsoever, but what bothers me the most is the calmness of the FE'ers and the "in your face " attitude of those against the 100. You guys honestly sound like a bunch of 12 year olds in the playground trying to prove you are tougher.  You disproven little and a 2 line remark against each one of the 100 is not enough. You ARE trying to disprove the 100 correct? Then it is YOU who has to bring the proof! Saying " Eh this is only observation" is not disproving anything. If I seen Bigfoot smash my house then run away is that proof or observation?  It happened yet I have no proof but my observation makes it proof for me and until disproved with facts makes it solid. You can't just tell me " eh it was only your observation so you are wrong"


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This proof contains an appeal to authority. The Bible is not a reference for scientific study.

It is full of facts.

Name 3 facts that CAME FROM the bible.

really? you are going to waste everyone's time with worthless questions? wow you are definitely the masterdebator
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The Bible says that each star is unique.

      1 Corinthians 15:41
      There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

All stars look alike to the naked eye.* Even when seen through a telescope, they seem to be just points of light. However, analysis of their light spectra reveals that each is unique and different from all others.[1] (*Note: We understand that people can perceive some slight difference in color and apparent brightness when looking at stars with the naked eye, but we would not expect a person living in the first century A.D. to claim they differ from one another.)

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The Bible describes the suspension of the Earth in space.

      Job 26:7
      He stretches out the north over empty space;
      He hangs the earth on nothing.

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The Bible describes biogenesis (the development of living organisms from other living organisms) and the stability of each kind of living organism.

      Genesis 1:11,12
      Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.


      Genesis 1:21
      So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.


      Genesis 1:25
      And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

The phrase “according to its kind” occurs repeatedly, stressing the reproductive integrity of each kind of animal and plant. Today we know this occurs because all of these reproductive systems are programmed by their genetic codes.[1]
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The Bible describes the chemical nature of flesh.

      Genesis 2:7
      And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.


      Genesis 3:19
      In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
      Till you return to the ground,
      For out of it you were taken;
      For dust you are,
      And to dust you shall return.
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It is a proven fact that a person’s mental and spiritual health is strongly correlated with physical health.[1] The Bible revealed this to us with these statements (and others) written by King Solomon about 950 BC.

      Proverbs 12:4
      An excellent wife is the crown of her husband,
      But she who causes shame is like rottenness in his bones.


      Proverbs 14:30
      A sound heart is life to the body,
      But envy is rottenness to the bones.


      Proverbs 15:30
      The light of the eyes rejoices the heart,
      And a good report makes the bones healthy.


      Proverbs 16:24
      Pleasant words are like a honeycomb,
      Sweetness to the soul and health to the bones.


      Proverbs 17:22
      A merry heart does good, like medicine,
      But a broken spirit dries the bones.

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The bible includes reasonably complete descriptions of the hydrologic cycle.[3]

      Psalm 135:7
      He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth;
      He makes lightning for the rain;
      He brings the wind out of His treasuries.


      Jeremiah 10:13
      When He utters His voice,
      There is a multitude of waters in the heavens:
      “And He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth.
      He makes lightning for the rain,
      He brings the wind out of His treasuries.”

Sooo as you can see REAL scientist HAVE been using the Bible for thousands of years. Just because we have surpassed some of this now does not mean it has not been looked to in the past. If you will insist to deny every fact placed in front of you and not truly agree or disagree in debate form then what is the point?  Even if they presented you with solid proof that the world is flat you still would deny it. Your mind is made up and you refuse to truly debate. Instead you follow your own close minded thoughts and ideals and saying no Scientist use the bible is pure proof.

Asking for three facts is just a way of not truly being able to debate a subject. Man didn't you guys go to debate class?

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Thevoiceofreason

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #242 on: July 07, 2010, 11:57:23 PM »
And then God read this entire thread, and saw that it was good.

First, I'd like to point out that his proofs are disproofs of the globe, not proofs of th plane. But this is misleading, as he brings up the plane allot.

Secondly, the common theme here is that this guy doesnt really understand physics. The laws of motion and optics are lost on him. Therin, many of the proofs rely on a fallacy of personal incredulity. He doesn't understand that "natural things" are not neccesarily correct. Thirdly, he does what most Zet's do, and pluck out random mechanisms that explain phenomena (the what), but fail to give the how or why things happen.


I've thus far read all of Clocktowers disproofs, and the only complaint I have, is that his position forces a dichotomy, because he is disprooving the globe. However, where you do state the false dichotomy fallacy, it could still be said that he fails at making a complete disproof. he only shows how the premise is wrong, not the conclusion.

Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #243 on: July 08, 2010, 04:44:08 AM »
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that this guy doesn't really understand physics. The laws of motion and optics are lost on him.

isn't that the point? If you ever hope to truly discover the world and how it works you must learn to clear your mind. Close out all of what you have been tought and observe with your own mind. You cannot see new things with old eyes.  If one person throughout history made a mistake you will never catch it. You are too busy quoting other scientist.

 The only way FE or RE will be proven is by those that let everything else go. Obviously science has failed thus far otherwise this forum would not exist. Think with your mind not with Newtons.

 Eh like I said in the other thread this place is not a FE society. In a real FE society this thread would have been eaten and spit back up. One guy runs around screaming Newton said so you are wrong and barely one person speaks up. Weak.

 One day many of you will learn(most likely as you get older) that believing in something is what makes us human. You believe in a Round Earth, awesome, there is tons of proof of it. These other guys believe in a Flat earth. Even more awesome because they chose to question authority and not eat what has been spoon fed to them. If it was not for these type people we would all still be living in caves.

 Do you think Columbus understood Physics? Think he cared? (no I do not think Columbus was the first to sail around the world)

 I do believe this is all a guise for RE. These entire forums.

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Raver

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #244 on: July 08, 2010, 05:19:52 AM »
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One day many of you will learn(most likely as you get older) that believing in something is what makes us human. You believe in a Round Earth, awesome, there is tons of proof of it. These other guys believe in a Flat earth. Even more awesome because they chose to question authority and not eat what has been spoon fed to them. If it was not for these type people we would all still be living in caves.

Oh wait, I think you forgot that humanity believed the earth was flat for a very long period (ty church for that period) then people came along who chose to question authority and not eat what has been spoon fed to them. If it was not for these type people we would all still be living in caves.

So ty you for your insights good sir, but as you can see it doesn't bring us anywhere since both RE'ers and FE'ers question authority, they are not mutually exclusive.
Quote from: Gen. Douchebag
Quote from: Raver
Why? You a pedo out for delicious loli?
Sure, whatever

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ClockTower

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #245 on: July 08, 2010, 09:02:19 AM »
87. The theory of a rotating and revolving earth demands at theory to keep the water on its surface; but, as the. theory which is given for this purpose is as much opposed to all human experience as the one which it is intended to uphold, it is an illustration of the miserable makeshifts to which astronomers are compelled to resort, and affords, a proof that the Earth is not a globe.

#87 is a repeat of #86. Please see it for the critique.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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The Question1

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #246 on: July 08, 2010, 09:07:51 AM »
[

really? you are going to waste everyone's time with worthless questions? wow you are definitely the masterdebator
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The Bible says that each star is unique.

      1 Corinthians 15:41
      There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

All stars look alike to the naked eye.* Even when seen through a telescope, they seem to be just points of light. However, analysis of their light spectra reveals that each is unique and different from all others.[1] (*Note: We understand that people can perceive some slight difference in color and apparent brightness when looking at stars with the naked eye, but we would not expect a person living in the first century A.D. to claim they differ from one another.)
What makes you say that,if something differs between the stars,then they are different.

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The Bible describes the suspension of the Earth in space.

      Job 26:7
      He stretches out the north over empty space;
      He hangs the earth on nothing.
Earth is not suspended in space.

Quote
The Bible describes biogenesis (the development of living organisms from other living organisms) and the stability of each kind of living organism.

      Genesis 1:11,12
      Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.


      Genesis 1:21
      So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.


      Genesis 1:25
      And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

The phrase “according to its kind” occurs repeatedly, stressing the reproductive integrity of each kind of animal and plant. Today we know this occurs because all of these reproductive systems are programmed by their genetic codes.[1]
I'll give you this

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The Bible describes the chemical nature of flesh.

      Genesis 2:7
      And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.


      Genesis 3:19
      In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
      Till you return to the ground,
      For out of it you were taken;
      For dust you are,
      And to dust you shall return.
It doesn't really describe much,more of a general guess really.I meanyou get buried and eaten by worms(which live in the ground.)

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It is a proven fact that a person’s mental and spiritual health is strongly correlated with physical health.[1] The Bible revealed this to us with these statements (and others) written by King Solomon about 950 BC.

      Proverbs 12:4
      An excellent wife is the crown of her husband,
      But she who causes shame is like rottenness in his bones.


      Proverbs 14:30
      A sound heart is life to the body,
      But envy is rottenness to the bones.


      Proverbs 15:30
      The light of the eyes rejoices the heart,
      And a good report makes the bones healthy.


      Proverbs 16:24
      Pleasant words are like a honeycomb,
      Sweetness to the soul and health to the bones.


      Proverbs 17:22
      A merry heart does good, like medicine,
      But a broken spirit dries the bones.
This is due to the fact they heavily believed in things of a spirtual nature causing illness or disease.We know its more of mental thing.

Quote
The bible includes reasonably complete descriptions of the hydrologic cycle.[3]

      Psalm 135:7
      He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth;
      He makes lightning for the rain;
      He brings the wind out of His treasuries.


      Jeremiah 10:13
      When He utters His voice,
      There is a multitude of waters in the heavens:
      “And He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth.
      He makes lightning for the rain,
      He brings the wind out of His treasuries.”
I think people understood that their water was leaving,when they boiled it and the water level wasn't the same.

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Asking for three facts is just a way of not truly being able to debate a subject. Man didn't you guys go to debate class?
1.Except that i wasn't debating,i was asking a question.
2.I am not aware of any debating classes in my area,but since you don't know what a debate is i would suggest taking it again.

Responses in Bold.

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ClockTower

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #247 on: July 08, 2010, 09:15:02 AM »
88. If we could - after our minds had once been opened to the light of Truth - conceive of a globular body on the surface of which human beings could exist, the power - no matter by what name it be called - that would hold them on would, then, necessarily, have to be so constraining and cogent that they could not live; the waters of the oceans would have to be as a solid mass, for motion would be impossible. But we not only exist, but live and move; and the water of the ocean skips and dances like a thing of life and beauty! This is a proof that the Earth is not a globe.

Add an appeal to nature fallacy to #86 and you have this attempt of a proof. The proof fails for its fallacy and the reasons listed in #86.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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ClockTower

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #248 on: July 08, 2010, 09:19:34 AM »
89. It is well known that the law, regulating the apparent decrease in the size of objects as we leave them in the distance (or as they leave us) is very different with luminous bodies from what it is in the case of those which are non-luminous. Sail past the light of a small lamp in a row-boat on a dark night, and it will seem to be no smaller when a mile off than it was when close to it. Proctor says, in speaking of the Sun: "his apparent size does not change!" - far off or near. And then he forgets the fact! Mr. Proctor tells us, subsequently, that, if the traveler goes so far south that the North Star appears on the horizon, "the Sun should therefore look much larger" - if the Earth were a plane! Therefore, he argues, "the path followed cannot have been the straight course," - but a curved one. Now, since it is nothing but common scientific trickery to bring forward, as an objection to stand in the way of a plane Earth, the non-appearance of a thing which has never been known to appear at all, it follows that, unless that which appears to be trickery were an accident, it was the only course open to the objector - to trick. (Mr. Proctor, in a letter to the "English Mechanic" for Oct. 20,1871, boasts of having turned a recent convert to the Zetetic Philosophy by telling him that his arguments were all very good, but that "it seems as though [Mark the language!] the sun ought to look nine times larger in summer." And Mr. Proctor conclude's thus: "He saw, indeed, that, in his faith in "Parallax," he had "written himself down an ass.") Well, then: trickery or no trickery on the part of the objector, the objection is a counterfeit - a fraud - no valid objection at all; and it follows that the system which does not purge itself of these things is a rotten system, and the system which advocates, with Mr. Proctor at their head, a weapon to use - the Zetetic philosophy of "Parallax" - is destined to live! This is a proof that the Earth is not a globe.

For all this text, we need only examine the premise: "It is well known that the law, regulating the apparent decrease in the size of objects as we leave them in the distance (or as they leave us) is very different with luminous bodies from what it is in the case of those which are non-luminous." Despite the claim, luminous bodies obey the same Laws of Optics as non-luminous. Perhaps, Carpenter was confused by the concepts of polarization (or glare). Regardless without it premise, this proof fails.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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ClockTower

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #249 on: July 08, 2010, 09:38:56 AM »
90. "Is water level, or is it not?" was a question once asked of an astronomer. "Practically, yes; theoretically, no," was the reply. Now, when theory does not harmonize with practice, the best thing to do is to drop the theory. (It is getting too late, now to say "So much the worse for the factsI") To drop the theory which supposes a curved surface to standing water is to acknowledge the facts which form the basis of Zetetic philosophy. And since this will have to be done sooner or later, - it is a proof that the Earth is not a globe.

Again attacking the other side does not prove your case, unless you have a firm dichotomy. Here Carpenter also uses appeal to nature. That water is locally level but curved with the surface of the Earth may not seem natural to some; however, Carpenter must show that it's not true to justify his proof. Thus yet another proof fails.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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ClockTower

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #250 on: July 08, 2010, 09:42:16 AM »
91. "By actual observation," says Schoedler, in his " Book of Nature," we know that the other heavenly bodies are spherical, hence we unhesitatingly assert that the earth is so also." This is a fair sample of all astronomical reasoning. When a thing is classed amongst "other" things, the likeness between them must first be proven. It does not take a Schroedler to tell us that "heavenly bodies" are spherical, but " the greatest astronomer of the age" will not, now, dare to tell us that THE EARTH is - and attempt to prove it. Now, since no likeness has ever been proven to exist between the Earth and the heavenly bodies, the classification of the Earth with the heavenly bodies is premature - unscientific -false! This is a proof that Earth is not a globe.

Attacking the argument of the other side does nothing to prove your thesis. Once again, Carpenter's proof fails.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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ClockTower

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #251 on: July 08, 2010, 09:47:28 AM »
92. "There is no inconsistency in supposing that the earth does move round the sun," says the Astronomer Royal of England. Certainly not, when theoretical astronomy is all supposition together! The inconsistency is in teaching the world that the thing supposed is a fact. Since, then, the "motion" of the Earth is supposition only - since, indeed, it is necessary to suppose it at all - it is plain that it is a fiction and not a fact; and, since "mobility" and "sphericity" stand or fall together, we have before us a proof that Earth is not a globe.

As in #91, attacking a conclusion of the other side does not prove your thesis. Carpenter offers no proof here that the Earth doesn't move. (Indeed in FET here it does accelerate continuously.) Except for an appeal to nature, he does not seem to have any argument here. For want a supported premise, for a fallacy, and more, this proof fails.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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ClockTower

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #252 on: July 08, 2010, 09:51:07 AM »
93, We have seen that astronomers - to give us a level surface on which to live - have cut off one-half of the "globe" in a certain picture in their books. [See page 6.] Now, astronomers having done this, one-half of the substance of their "spherical theory" is given up! Since, then, the theory must stand or fall in its entirety, it has really fallen when the half is gone. Nothing remains, then, but a plane Earth, which is, of course, a proof that the Earth is not a globe.

Carpenter attacks a straw-man. Showing diagrams of hemisphere is not "to give us a level surface on which to live". Attacking a straw-man, this proof fails.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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ClockTower

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #253 on: July 08, 2010, 09:53:58 AM »
94. In " Cornell's Geography" there is an "Illustrated proof of the Form of the Earth," A curved line on which is represented a ship in four positions, as she sails away from an observer, is an arc of 72 degrees, or one-fifth of the supposed circumference of the "globe" - about 5,000 miles. Ten, such ships as those which are given in the picture would reach the full length of the "arc," making 500 miles as the length of the ship, The man in the picture, who is watching the ship as she sails away, is about 200 miles high; and the tower, from which he takes an elevated view, at least 600 miles high. These are the proportions, then, of men, towers, arid ships which are necessary in order to see a ship, in her different positions, as she "rounds the curve" of the "great hill of water" over which she is supposed to be sailing: for, it must be remembered that this supposed "proof" depends upon lines and angles of vision which, if enlarged, would still retain their characteristics. Now, since ships are not built 500 miles long, with masts in proportion, and men are not quite 200 miles high, it is not what it is said to be - a proof of rotundity - but, either an ignorant farce or a cruel piece of deception. In short, it is a proof that the Earth is not a globe.

Again, attacking the explanation of the other side doesn't prove your thesis. Drawing involving the spherical Earth often cannot be entirely to scale. To extrapolate that they are is building a straw-man. Carpenter does nothing to convinces us that the Earth in not a globe here, and his proof #94 fails.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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ClockTower

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #254 on: July 08, 2010, 09:56:43 AM »
95. In "Cornell's Intermediate Geography," (1881) page 12, is an "Illustration of the Natural Divisions of Land and Water." This illustration is so nicely drawn that it affords, at once, a striking proof that Earth is a plane. It is true to nature, and bears the stamp of no astronomer-artist. It is a pictorial proof that Earth is not a globe.

One drawing cannot be a proof. That a drawing must fit into a book may be the reason for its appearance. Furthermore, Carpenter uses the appeal to nature fallacy ("It is true to nature ...") again. For these reasons, proof #95 fails.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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ClockTower

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #255 on: July 08, 2010, 10:01:33 AM »
96. If we refer to the diagram in "Cornell's Geography," page 4, and notice the ship in its position the most remote from the observer, we shall find that, though it is about 4,000 miles away, it is the same size as the ship that is nearest to him, distant about 700 miles! This a an illustration of the way in which astronomers ignore the laws of perspective. This course is necessary, or they would be compelled to lay bare the fallacy of their dogmas. In short, there is, in this matter, a proof that the Earth is not a globe.

Again, attacking an illustration of the other side cannot prove your thesis. Yes, the drawing might be better with perspective effects noted. The size of the ship was probably not the point of the illustration, so Carpenter may be attacking yet another straw-man. Carpenter does nothing to show that ships don't disappear hull first as they move out to sea from the observer. Carpenter provides no reasons to support, let alone prove, his thesis; hence #96 fails.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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ClockTower

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #256 on: July 08, 2010, 10:25:42 AM »
97. Mr. Hind, the English astronomer, says - "The simplicity, with which the seasons are explained by the revolution of the Earth in her orbit and the obliquity of the ecliptic, may certainly be adduced as a strong presumptive proof of the correctness" - of the Newtonian theory; "for on no other rational suppositions with respect to the relations of the Earth and Sun, can these and other as well-known phenomena, be accounted for." But, as true philosophy has no "suppositions" at all - and has nothing to do with, "suppositions" - and the phenomena spoken of are thoroughly explained by facts, the "presumptive proof" falls to the ground, covered with the ridicule it the dust of Mr. Hind's "rational suppositions" we are standing before us a proof that Earth is not a globe.

Again, you cannot prove your thesis by attacking the problems with the other side's work. Here, Mr. Hind makes a convincing case that given a the assumptions of the time for RET that is explains the seasons better than FET does. To say that because RET doesn't have all of the answers you've proven FET is disingenuous. This is not a proof.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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ClockTower

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #257 on: July 08, 2010, 10:55:52 AM »
98. Mr Hind speaks of the astronomer watching a star as it is carried across the telescope by the diurnal revolution of the Earth." Now, this is nothing but downright absurdity. No motion of the Earth could possibly carry a star across a telescope or anything else. If the star is carried across anything at all, it is the star that moves, not the thing across which it is carried! Besides, the idea that the Earth, if it were a globe, could possibly move in an orbit of nearly 600,000,000 of miles with such exactitude that the cross-hairs in a telescope fixed on its surface would appear to glide gently over a star "millions of millions" of miles away is simply monstrous; whereas, with a FIXED telescope, it matters not the distance of the stars, though we suppose them to be as far off as the astronomer supposes them to be; for, as Mr. Proctor himself says, "the further away they are, the less they will seem to shift." Why, in the name of common sense, should observers have to fix their telescopes on solid stone bases so that they should not move a hair's-breadth, - if the Earth on which they fix them move at the rate of nineteen miles in a second? Indeed, to believe that Mr. Proctor's mass of "six thousand million million million tons" is "rolling, surging, flying, darting on through space for ever" with a velocity compared with which a shot from a cannon is a "very slow coach," with such unerring accuracy that a telescope fixed on granite pillars in an observatory will not enable a lynx-eyed astronomer to detect a variation in its onward motion of the thousandth part of a hair's-breadth is to conceive a miracle compared with which all the miracles on record put together would sink into utter insignificance. Captain R. J. Morrison, the late compiler of "Zadkeil's Almanac;" says: "We declare that this "motion" is all mere 'bosh'; and that the arguments which uphold it are, when examined with an eye that seeks for TRUTH only, mere nonsense, and childish absurdity. "Since, then, these absurd theories are of no use to men in their senses, and since there is no necessity for anything of the kind in Zetetic philosophy, it is a "strong presumptive proof" - as Mr. Hind would say that the Zetetic philosophy is true, and, therefore, a proof that Earth is not a globe..

This may be longest the Carpenter's Proofs. It's difficult to follow and seems to miss several points. Stars are "carried" across the sky by the diurnal rotation of the Earth, as evidenced by most any clear night's observations. That they would move across a telescopes view is not surprising and regularly viewed. Carpenter presents no evidence to the contrary. We've already pointed out Carpenter's errors regarding the effects of rotations and relative nature of motion, so we won't repeat that here. I don't know of Captain R. J. Morrison or the "Zadkeil's Almanac", so I can't verify his opinion of this "motion". I do see that:
Quote
Richard James Morrison (15 June 1795 – 5 April 1874) was an English astrologer, commonly known by his pseudonym Zadkiel.
Morrison served in the Royal Navy, but resigned with the rank of lieutenant in 1829. He then devoted himself to the study of astrology, and in 1831 issued The Herald of Astrology, subsequently known as Zadkiel's Almanac. In this annual pamphlet Morrison, over the signature Zadkiel Tao-Sze, published predictions of the chief events of the coming year.
from Wikipedia that he was an astrologer and never a captain. I'd have to say that if you have to inflate the rank of source and rely on a source in a questionable occupation, you're not doing very well. Once again, with no evidence to support its premise and relying on a poor resource, this proof is faulty.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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ClockTower

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #258 on: July 08, 2010, 11:01:51 AM »
99. Mr. Hind speaks of two great mathematicians differing only fifty-five yards in their estimate of the Earth's diameter. Why, Sir John Herschel, in his celebrated work, cuts off 480 miles of the same thing to get "round numbers!" This is like splitting a hair on one side of the bead and shaving all the hair off on the other! Oh, "science!" Can there be any truth in a science like this? All the exactitude in astronomy is in Practical astronomy - not Theoretical. Centuries of observation have made practical astronomy a noble art and science, based - as we have a thousand times proved it to be - on a fixed Earth; and we denounce this pretended exactitude on one side and the reckless indifference to figures on the other as the basest trash, and take from it a proof that the "science" which tolerates it is a false - instead of being an "exact" - science, and we have a proof that the Earth is not a globe.

Again you don't prove your thesis by attacking the evidence supporting the other side. Next, the precision of estimates is based on the precision of the measurements and the method the estimate uses. The concept of significant digits eludes Mr. Carpenter. He shows nothing questionable about Sir John Herschel's estimate, in that rounding is correct when wanting for significance in those places. Once again there is no proof here.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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ClockTower

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #259 on: July 08, 2010, 11:05:39 AM »
100. The Sun, as he travels round over the surface of the Earth, brings "noon" to all places on the successive meridians which he crosses: his journey being made in a westerly direction, places east of the Sun's position have had their noon, whilst places to the west of the Sun's position have still to get it. Therefore, if we travel easterly, we arrive at those parts of the Earth where "time" is more advanced, the watch in our pocket has to be "put on"or we may be said to "gain time." If, on the other hand, we travel westerly, we arrive at places where it is still "morning," the watch has to be "put back," and it may be said that we "lose time." But, if we travel easterly so as to cross the 180th meridian, there is a loss, there, of a day, which will neutralize the gain of a whole circumnavigation; and, if we travel westerly, and cross the same meridian, we experience the gain of a day, which will compensate for the loss during a complete circumnavigation in that direction. The fact of losing or gaining time in sailing round the world, then, instead of being evidence of the Earth's "rotundity," as it is imagined to be, is, in its practical exemplification, an everlasting proof that the Earth is not a globe.

#100 is probably the most accurate premise yet. I have no argument with it; however, the conclusion does not follow from the premise. This is a non sequitur. This is not a proof.

And so, all 100 have failed.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Iivari

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #260 on: July 08, 2010, 12:32:57 PM »
So, clocktower, will you continue your debate about #1?  I really wanted to see how far FEs could draw that debate out even though its pretty obvious that #1 isn't a "proof" of anything.

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zork

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #261 on: July 08, 2010, 12:38:02 PM »
It is full of facts.

Name 3 facts that CAME FROM the bible.
I concur, I also want some facts, not some general babbling or prophesies or something like that because everyone knows that your bible sentences can be interpreted in different ways. They are just so general.

I have attempted to discuss him after he attacked point #1. He dropped the subject without saying a thing, and, frankly, I believe it's pointless reasoning with him. If this wording pleases you: I gave up.
 You did not attempt to discuss point #1. You started to argue about words and and grammar and the use of the word aeronaut and all else but nothing about discussion of the meaning of point #1. So, don't blame others if you just troll.

Clocktower has done no harm to the proofs so far. He has the right not to believe them, and he has the right to talk about it on a forum, but that does not invalidate them per se.
He doesn't try do invalidate them. He just shows that they are fallacies or have totally false or missing premises and so on. And you can't actually argue for any of these Carpenters claims. As seen from point #1 you don't have any actual arguments but just start nitpicking about words and grammar.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 12:43:05 PM by zork »
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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ClockTower

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #262 on: July 08, 2010, 12:39:57 PM »
So, clocktower, will you continue your debate about #1?  I really wanted to see how far FEs could draw that debate out even though its pretty obvious that #1 isn't a "proof" of anything.
I'm sure that many REers will be happy to debate any of our points, myself included.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #263 on: July 08, 2010, 12:47:03 PM »
I have attempted to discuss him after he attacked point #1. He dropped the subject without saying a thing, and, frankly, I believe it's pointless reasoning with him. If this wording pleases you: I gave up.
  You did not attempt to discuss point #1. You started to argue about words and and grammar and the use of the word aeronaut and all else but nothing about discussion of the meaning of point #1. So, don't blame others if you just troll.

Clocktower has done no harm to the proofs so far. He has the right not to believe them, and he has the right to talk about it on a forum, but that does not invalidate them per se.
He doesn't try do invalidate them. He just shows that they are fallacies or have totally false or missing premises and so on. And you can't actually argue for any of these Carpenters claims. As seen from point #1 you don't have any actual arguments but just start nitpicking about words and grammar.

Very much the opposite. It is him who nitpicks on words and grammar. That's what he bases his not-disproving on. I merely pointed this out, but he never addressed the issue so I gave up.
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

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zork

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #264 on: July 08, 2010, 12:56:16 PM »
Very much the opposite. It is him who nitpicks on words and grammar. That's what he bases his not-disproving on. I merely pointed this out, but he never addressed the issue so I gave up.
Sorry, I read the beginning of the thread again and it was definitely you who started to nitpick about aeronaut and other things. There is nothing about grammar at Clocktowers first post. If there is, please quote it and explain. And again. He doesn't disprove anything. He just shows that they are fallacies or have totally false or missing premises and so on. Just stop with this disproving thing, it just shows that you don't understand at all what this thread is about.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
-
http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #265 on: July 08, 2010, 01:25:43 PM »
disproving
I very clearly called it not-disproving.

it was definitely you who started to nitpick about aeronaut and other things.
Very incorrect.

And here's the quote
Quote
Did R go and talk with every aeronaut? No, of course not.
He's nitpicking on the word "aeronaut" which is completely irrelevant to the topic. He also uses this as the main reason to refute #1. The rest of this tirade is pretty much the same. "He used the wrong word, so he must be wrong", "I didn't check it myself, so it must be wrong", "I don't understand, so it's wrong".

Duh, I'm outta here.
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

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Johannes

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #266 on: July 08, 2010, 01:28:24 PM »
This thread belongs in RM. 100 proofs have not failed, they have just been poked with a plastic knife.

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ClockTower

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #267 on: July 08, 2010, 01:30:18 PM »
disproving
I very clearly called it not-disproving.

it was definitely you who started to nitpick about aeronaut and other things.
Very incorrect.

And here's the quote
Quote
Did R go and talk with every aeronaut? No, of course not.
He's nitpicking on the word "aeronaut" which is completely irrelevant to the topic. He also uses this as the main reason to refute #1. The rest of this tirade is pretty much the same. "He used the wrong word, so he must be wrong", "I didn't check it myself, so it must be wrong", "I don't understand, so it's wrong".

Duh, I'm outta here.
While I rather glad that you're "outta here", I have to note that saying "Did R go and talk with every aeronaut?" does not in any way nitpick about the word "aeronaut" as you claim. I'm holding his feet to the fire and his claim the every aeronaut sees something. He can't make that claim (unless he goes and talks with every one of them.)
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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ClockTower

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #268 on: July 08, 2010, 01:31:17 PM »
This thread belongs in RM. 100 proofs have not failed, they have just been poked with a plastic knife.
I have to agree that I used very little effort, but I didn't want to use excessive force now, did I?
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: Carpenter's 100 Proofs, one at a time.
« Reply #269 on: July 08, 2010, 01:54:21 PM »
While I am rather glad that you're "outta here"
Might as well stay.

saying "Did R go and talk with every aeronaut?" does not in any way nitpick about the word "aeronaut"
Incorrect.

He can't make that claim (unless he goes and talks with every one of them.)
Following that logic, you can't make the claim that a person can see the sky being blue unless you talk to each and every one of them. And guess what? Not every person will see the sky being blue, considering the fact that some won't see it at all. The "proof" of the fact that the sky is blue fails because it contains an unsupported premise.
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)