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I'll test bendy light theory

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corleone

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #60 on: March 22, 2010, 08:07:50 AM »
Quote from: parsec on March 22, 2010, 07:13:58 AM
No, bouncing off the light ray has nothing to do with my calculation. We have been through that. My calculation refers to markjo's proposed scheme. It is not what your suggested. Your experiment won't work since the mirrors were aligned parallel by implicitly assuming straight line propagation (see Fabry-Perrot etalon). So, in essence, your experiment will look for misalignment of aligned mirrors.

That's exactly the point of my experiment! I'll explain better:

1-The more bounces inside resonating cavity the more brighter the laser is.

2-As you said, mirrors are aligned parallel assuming straight line propagation (SLP).

3-Let's say that in SLP light bounces infinite times between mirrors (It's an assumption) producing an intensity of 10

4-If BL phenomena does really happen, light will never bounce infinite times between mirrors since, after a number of bounces, light will hit the wall of the cavity ending his travel. Therefore an intensity of 6 (i.e.) will be detected.

5-We can get rid of BL just holding the laser vertically, therefore a comparison between both cases can be made.

What's wrong here? I still don't get it, or you still don't get it.
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parsec

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #61 on: March 22, 2010, 08:21:20 AM »
Quote from: corleone on March 22, 2010, 08:07:50 AM
Quote from: parsec on March 22, 2010, 07:13:58 AM
No, bouncing off the light ray has nothing to do with my calculation. We have been through that. My calculation refers to markjo's proposed scheme. It is not what your suggested. Your experiment won't work since the mirrors were aligned parallel by implicitly assuming straight line propagation (see Fabry-Perrot etalon). So, in essence, your experiment will look for misalignment of aligned mirrors.

That's exactly the point of my experiment! I'll explain better:

1-The more bounces inside resonating cavity the more brighter the laser is.

2-As you said, mirrors are aligned parallel assuming straight line propagation (SLP).

3-Let's say that in SLP light bounces infinite times between mirrors (It's an assumption) producing an intensity of 10

4-If BL phenomena does really happen, light will never bounce infinite times between mirrors since, after a number of bounces, light will hit the wall of the cavity ending his travel. Therefore an intensity of 6 (i.e.) will be detected.

5-We can get rid of BL just holding the laser vertically, therefore a comparison between both cases can be made.

What's wrong here? I still don't get it, or you still don't get it.

But, this is not how scientific hypothesis testing is done.
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Catchpa

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #62 on: March 22, 2010, 08:22:02 AM »
Quote from: Catchpa on March 22, 2010, 07:37:56 AM
Hey parsec if you're so wise about the whole bendy light thing, how it works and how it doesn't, then why don't you tell us how to test it?

... because someone did test it, right?
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corleone

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #63 on: March 22, 2010, 08:27:22 AM »
Quote from: parsec on March 22, 2010, 08:21:20 AM
But, this is not how scientific hypothesis testing is done.

Wow, then how should I proceed according to your concept of "scientific hypotesis testing"? Remember that so far I'm only talking about the idea, the basis; not the experiment itself. FE people claim that BL exist. If my experiment works BL exists, if my experiment does not work BL does not exist. Easy.
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parsec

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #64 on: March 22, 2010, 08:48:33 AM »
Quote from: corleone on March 22, 2010, 08:27:22 AM
Quote from: parsec on March 22, 2010, 08:21:20 AM
But, this is not how scientific hypothesis testing is done.

Wow, then how should I proceed according to your concept of "scientific hypotesis testing"? Remember that so far I'm only talking about the idea, the basis; not the experiment itself. FE people claim that BL exist. If my experiment works BL exists, if my experiment does not work BL does not exist. Easy.

Ok, before you embark on your ambitious task, answer these questions:

1. What is your research (alternative) hypothesis?

2. Assuming you formulated the problem under 1. correctly, derive a logical negation of that statement. This is your null hypothesis.

3. Under the null hypothesis, give us the predictions for the outcome of the experiment you are performing. Make sure you express your predictions in terms of measurable physical quantities

4. Give us the critical region of results that would lead to rejecting the null hypothesis with a 95% level of significance.

There are only two outcomes of your experiment. Either the null hypothesis is rejected, or it is not rejected. The level of significance indicates the probability of making an error of the first kind (with probability of 5%). This error is to reject the null hypothesis, when, in fact it is correct.

5. However, you can also make an error of the second kind, where you fail to reject the null hypothesis, when, in fact, it is false. You should be able to provide an estimate for this probability as well. This gives the power of your test. To increase it to an acceptable level, you must perform very precise and accurate measurements. You must provide the estimates for the necessary precision and describe the methodology you plan on using in order to achieve the accepted level of precision.

6. Finally, report the data in an unbiased and transparent fashion and let us be able to make a deduction by analyzing the data by ourselves.
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corleone

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #65 on: March 22, 2010, 09:22:51 AM »
You're running too fast. I'm not at that point yet, i'm only talking about the basis, the idea of the experiment. When the time of performing the experiment comes surely I will take care of all things and I will make some prediction of the intensity that should be detected with and without BL and I'll see if I can get that precission with my equipment.

Mainly I will take care of:

-The mirrors inside the lasers, are they curved? % of light lost at every bounce; focusing lenses, power fluctuations, rate of amplification etc etc etc
-The way the photometer work, I mean, It's linear? As far as I remember it isn't, but for certain wavelengths it can be aproximated. It gives a value in volts. [ V=k*I ] being "I" the average number of photons that hits the detector.
-All other issues relative to the experiment

With all this data I will run some simulations with mathematica and we'll see if my photometer is sensible to the predicted difference of intensity between both cases.

THEN, if it turns out to be positive, i'll go to the lab.

BUT we are still far from that point. BEFORE the work begins I need to know the opinion of FE people about the basis of my experiment. I will only make the experiment if FE people says "oh, it may work as a bendy light detector!". I will not do that effort for nothing. It has to be worthy.

Therefore I assume that you support the basis of my experiment, right?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 09:25:05 AM by corleone »
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parsec

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #66 on: March 22, 2010, 09:27:56 AM »
what is your alternative hypothesis?
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corleone

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #67 on: March 22, 2010, 09:36:01 AM »
Quote from: parsec on March 22, 2010, 09:27:56 AM
what is your alternative hypothesis?

I don't like that way of proving/disproving things, but ok:


Alternative hypotesis: Light does not bend, therefore no luminosity change is detected if we rotate the laser.
Null hypotesis: Light does bend, therefore we detect luminosity change if we rotate the laser.

What else do you need?
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parsec

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #68 on: March 22, 2010, 10:01:35 AM »
Quote from: corleone on March 22, 2010, 09:36:01 AM
Quote from: parsec on March 22, 2010, 09:27:56 AM
what is your alternative hypothesis?

I don't like that way of proving/disproving things, but ok:


Alternative hypotesis: Light does not bend, therefore no luminosity change is detected if we rotate the laser.
Null hypotesis: Light does bend, therefore we detect luminosity change if we rotate the laser.

What else do you need?
Ok, now using BLT, give some quantitative predictions that you actually want to test.
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corleone

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #69 on: March 22, 2010, 10:25:36 AM »
I'll do that later, now i'm only talking about the basis.

Assuming that I do the numbers and my setup really can produce measurable difference in intensity, will you accept this as a proof of existence/no existence of BL phenomena?

In other words: Do you think that, speaking ideally, there would be diferences in intensity between both cases? Yes or no
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parsec

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #70 on: March 22, 2010, 10:32:00 AM »
Quote from: corleone on March 22, 2010, 10:25:36 AM
I'll do that later, now i'm only talking about the basis.

Assuming that I do the numbers and my setup really can produce measurable difference in intensity, will you accept this as a proof of existence/no existence of BL phenomena?

In other words: Do you think that, speaking ideally, there would be diferences in intensity between both cases? Yes or no
Ideally, yes.
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corleone

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #71 on: March 22, 2010, 10:35:34 AM »
At last! Positive words about my idea coming from a FE'r. If more FE'rs join our opinion about the experiment I'll start the numbers.
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markjo

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #72 on: March 22, 2010, 10:45:11 AM »
Quote from: parsec on March 22, 2010, 10:01:35 AM
Ok, now using BLT, give some quantitative predictions that you actually want to test.

Just out of curiosity, has BLT matured enough that quantitative predictions can even be made?
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parsec

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #73 on: March 22, 2010, 11:03:42 AM »
Quote from: markjo on March 22, 2010, 10:45:11 AM
Quote from: parsec on March 22, 2010, 10:01:35 AM
Ok, now using BLT, give some quantitative predictions that you actually want to test.

Just out of curiosity, has BLT matured enough that quantitative predictions can even be made?
For this experiment, yes, since it is a local one. Namely, we can always parametrize the deflection of the light ray from a straight line. Using formulas from differential geometry (Frenet formulas), a curve can be written as:

r = r0 + s t + k/2*s2*n,

where s is the arc length parameter, t is the tangent unit vector, n is the unit principal normal and k is the curvature. If k = 0, then we can say that light travels straight
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 11:05:21 AM by parsec »
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markjo

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #74 on: March 22, 2010, 11:45:10 AM »
I confess that the math is over my head, so I'll have to take your word for it, but it seems that you gave a formula for measuring the deflection, not predicting it.
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parsec

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #75 on: March 22, 2010, 12:31:15 PM »
Which is great for the purposes of this experiment, since experimental data can give a confidence interval for k. If this confidence interval contains the zero value, then the null hypothesis that k != 0 (BLT) will be rejected.

The only thing we need to recognize is that this k depends on both r0 (the position where we are on the Earth) as well as t (the initial direction of the beam). Also, BLT should give some prediction for the direction of n as a function of r0 and t, which assumes some anisotropy.

Due to some symmetry considerations, we may draw some other conclusions. For example, k should not depend on the longitude of the point r 0. One should think of the most general functional form consistent with the symmetries of the problem.
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Catchpa

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #76 on: March 22, 2010, 03:15:36 PM »
Did anyone ever test this bendy light theory, or are you basically just pulling numbers out of your butt?
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Lorddave

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #77 on: March 22, 2010, 07:34:15 PM »
Quote from: Catchpa on March 22, 2010, 03:15:36 PM
Did anyone ever test this bendy light theory, or are you basically just pulling numbers out of your butt?

I admit the math is beyond me as well.  It's been a while since I took trig and I was never very good at math anyway.

However, the way I understand it, why would they need to test anything?  All you need to do is find the equation that simulates a heliocentric, round earth perspective with regards to EM radiation onto a geocentric, flat earth perspective.  That's all Bendy light does.  It was developed specifically for that purpose and is one of the requirements for a Flat Earth perspective to be accurate.
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flyingmonkey

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #78 on: March 22, 2010, 07:42:10 PM »
Quote from: flyingmonkey on March 22, 2010, 07:18:12 AM
What about shining a laser light from the bottom floor of a building and walking away so you can no longer see the bottom of the building?

If light bends below the ground to make the horizon, why would you still be able to see a laser light above your head?


Anyone?
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Lorddave

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #79 on: March 22, 2010, 07:44:06 PM »
Quote from: flyingmonkey on March 22, 2010, 07:42:10 PM
Quote from: flyingmonkey on March 22, 2010, 07:18:12 AM
What about shining a laser light from the bottom floor of a building and walking away so you can no longer see the bottom of the building?

If light bends below the ground to make the horizon, why would you still be able to see a laser light above your head?


Anyone?

To do this you'd have to have a laser that reflects off something.  That would require a LOT of smoke machines.
Or a laser so powerful that it causes air to light up.
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flyingmonkey

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #80 on: March 23, 2010, 12:49:16 AM »
Quote from: Lorddave on March 22, 2010, 07:44:06 PM
Quote from: flyingmonkey on March 22, 2010, 07:42:10 PM
Quote from: flyingmonkey on March 22, 2010, 07:18:12 AM
What about shining a laser light from the bottom floor of a building and walking away so you can no longer see the bottom of the building?

If light bends below the ground to make the horizon, why would you still be able to see a laser light above your head?


Anyone?

To do this you'd have to have a laser that reflects off something.  That would require a LOT of smoke machines.
Or a laser so powerful that it causes air to light up.


While they can be expensive, they are neat to have.

http://www.wickedlasers.com
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2fst4u

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #81 on: March 23, 2010, 12:56:21 AM »
Quote from: Lorddave on March 22, 2010, 07:44:06 PM
Quote from: flyingmonkey on March 22, 2010, 07:42:10 PM
Quote from: flyingmonkey on March 22, 2010, 07:18:12 AM
What about shining a laser light from the bottom floor of a building and walking away so you can no longer see the bottom of the building?

If light bends below the ground to make the horizon, why would you still be able to see a laser light above your head?


Anyone?

To do this you'd have to have a laser that reflects off something.  That would require a LOT of smoke machines.
Or a laser so powerful that it causes air to light up.
The air isn't generally clear of impurities. Most laser that are slightly more powerful than the ones you get at the $2 shop will light up dust and stuff in the air. Even outside.
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SupahLovah

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #82 on: March 24, 2010, 07:45:49 AM »
This is the first time I've heard of light bending more at higher altitudes. I like how parsec makes things up! :D
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corleone

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #83 on: March 31, 2010, 03:14:17 AM »
BUMP

It's funny. I can prove-disprove BL and no one cme here to support me (but parsec) (also, im talking about FE'rs). Also, I've sent some PM to well known FE'rs asking them to join this debate. No-one answered. I'm starting to think that FE'rs don't really want to know if BL phenomena does really happen...
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Mizzle

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #84 on: March 31, 2010, 03:47:16 AM »
Quote from: corleone on March 31, 2010, 03:14:17 AM
BUMP

It's funny. I can prove-disprove BL and no one cme here to support me (but parsec) (also, im talking about FE'rs). Also, I've sent some PM to well known FE'rs asking them to join this debate. No-one answered. I'm starting to think that FE'rs don't really want to know if BL phenomena does really happen...

All jokes aside...

How will you accurately determine how many times the light is supposed to be reflected in either BLT or otherwise?
What is the control for the experiment?
I think the whole concept is a little hazy....
If you could provide a hypothetical experiment, utilizing actual variables and verifiable constants, you might have something to stand on here.

What I'm saying is give us a fly through of actually conduction the experiment, step by step.
Then let's talk more.
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Lorddave

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #85 on: March 31, 2010, 05:17:15 AM »
Quote from: Mizzle on March 31, 2010, 03:47:16 AM
Quote from: corleone on March 31, 2010, 03:14:17 AM
BUMP

It's funny. I can prove-disprove BL and no one cme here to support me (but parsec) (also, im talking about FE'rs). Also, I've sent some PM to well known FE'rs asking them to join this debate. No-one answered. I'm starting to think that FE'rs don't really want to know if BL phenomena does really happen...

All jokes aside...

How will you accurately determine how many times the light is supposed to be reflected in either BLT or otherwise?
What is the control for the experiment?
I think the whole concept is a little hazy....
If you could provide a hypothetical experiment, utilizing actual variables and verifiable constants, you might have something to stand on here.

What I'm saying is give us a fly through of actually conduction the experiment, step by step.
Then let's talk more.

It sounds simple enough.  If light travels straight then the energy from a laser would be the same at any angle.
If light bends based on angle, then the energy from a laser would be different at different angles.
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Thermal Detonator

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #86 on: March 31, 2010, 05:36:25 AM »
Quote from: corleone on March 31, 2010, 03:14:17 AM
BUMP

It's funny. I can prove-disprove BL and no one cme here to support me (but parsec) (also, im talking about FE'rs). Also, I've sent some PM to well known FE'rs asking them to join this debate. No-one answered. I'm starting to think that FE'rs don't really want to know if BL phenomena does really happen...

You can save yourself a lot of time and energy because bendy light would cause positional shifts to stars as they moved nearer and further from the horizon as the night sky rotated, which doesn't happen, so since one of the predicted effects of bendy light is not observed in the real world the whole theory can go in the bin.
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SupahLovah

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #87 on: March 31, 2010, 09:15:21 AM »
Quote from: Thermal Detonator on March 31, 2010, 05:36:25 AM
Quote from: corleone on March 31, 2010, 03:14:17 AM
BUMP

It's funny. I can prove-disprove BL and no one cme here to support me (but parsec) (also, im talking about FE'rs). Also, I've sent some PM to well known FE'rs asking them to join this debate. No-one answered. I'm starting to think that FE'rs don't really want to know if BL phenomena does really happen...

You can save yourself a lot of time and energy because bendy light would cause positional shifts to stars as they moved nearer and further from the horizon as the night sky rotated, which doesn't happen, so since one of the predicted effects of bendy light is not observed in the real world the whole theory can go in the bin.
Diagram plz.
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Thermal Detonator

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #88 on: March 31, 2010, 03:17:56 PM »
Quote from: SupahLovah on March 31, 2010, 09:15:21 AM
Quote from: Thermal Detonator on March 31, 2010, 05:36:25 AM
Quote from: corleone on March 31, 2010, 03:14:17 AM
BUMP

It's funny. I can prove-disprove BL and no one cme here to support me (but parsec) (also, im talking about FE'rs). Also, I've sent some PM to well known FE'rs asking them to join this debate. No-one answered. I'm starting to think that FE'rs don't really want to know if BL phenomena does really happen...

You can save yourself a lot of time and energy because bendy light would cause positional shifts to stars as they moved nearer and further from the horizon as the night sky rotated, which doesn't happen, so since one of the predicted effects of bendy light is not observed in the real world the whole theory can go in the bin.
Diagram plz.

Why?
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Mizzle

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Re: I'll test bendy light theory
« Reply #89 on: March 31, 2010, 04:07:34 PM »
Quote from: Thermal Detonator on March 31, 2010, 03:17:56 PM
Quote from: SupahLovah on March 31, 2010, 09:15:21 AM
Quote from: Thermal Detonator on March 31, 2010, 05:36:25 AM
Quote from: corleone on March 31, 2010, 03:14:17 AM
BUMP

It's funny. I can prove-disprove BL and no one cme here to support me (but parsec) (also, im talking about FE'rs). Also, I've sent some PM to well known FE'rs asking them to join this debate. No-one answered. I'm starting to think that FE'rs don't really want to know if BL phenomena does really happen...

You can save yourself a lot of time and energy because bendy light would cause positional shifts to stars as they moved nearer and further from the horizon as the night sky rotated, which doesn't happen, so since one of the predicted effects of bendy light is not observed in the real world the whole theory can go in the bin.
Diagram plz.

Why?

I don't agree with this assertion either.


What I'm curious about is the margin of error for this experiment.  I think that when it comes to measuring light's dispersion on such a short scale, there is a lot of room for error.
For instance, the smallest particle of dust on the mirror could be enough to blow this experiment.
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