Neutrino Detection Hardware

Hi All,

I noticed a thread on Solar Neutrinos and a request for hardware design information. I personally worked to construct the data acquisition hardware for the T2K FGD, and so will post whatever details I can find. T2K is not a direct experiment on Solar Neutrinos, so I will endeavor to get information from SNOWLAB or Super K.

For now:

The fact is, no one has offered a way to reconstruct the experiments, so there is no evidence to support the solar neutrinos.

For anyone to understand the hardware documentation I provide in the following posts, they must first read this background report on the T2K FGD data readout:
http://t2k-information.googlegroups.com/web/T2KFGDDAQ_Presentation.pdf?hl=en

If you really want access to the C++ code I will ask my former supervisor on Monday and see if I can get you an account on the SVN.

I will ask around and see if I can get similar information from SNOLAB, since there are several people who worked there and are currently at TRIUMF. Super K might be a bit more difficult since I suspect much of the documentation is in Japanese. I will still look...

I think that previous people were unable to post such information because it is difficult to find, even if it is public. Free flow of the information between members of the collaboration is the primary focus of the IT department and accessibility to the public can sometimes be left on the back burner. This may be due to the fact that the average Joe is not going to be able to reproduce 5 years, $100 million dollars, and a half million man hours (thousands of physicists working for 3-5 years) of this experiment in his back yard.

Digital data from the detector is sent via optical fiber cables to several FPGA/CPU hybrid chips, which are connected to the main DAQ computer through a Gbit Ethernet network. The following modifications need to be done to a Xilinx ML405 board in order to make it compatible with the data readout. There are many other ways to accomplish this data readout, but this is the method I happen to have documentation for.

List of ML405 hardware modifications
Date: Aug 28, 2009

PCB Pin Jumpers:

    * Port 0 enable diagonal jumper
    * Fan power jumper XXX closed (routes power supply +5V to the 3-pin fan connector, bypassing the unusable fan controller IC) (Konstantin)
    * Power feed to the Xilinx optical extension board (2-port DCC).
    * Rocket I/O clock mods
    * Clock selection jumpers XXX
    * Jumper cable from TTL I/O pin XXX (last pins) to oscillator socket on back side of ML405
    * CompactFlash boot selection jumpers XXX


Wire Jumpers:

    * ML405 IO to Optical board LOS signal 4 wire jumper. This connects to the ML405 pins on J6: Green=34, Blue=36, Gray=38, Purple=40, which requires a 3-pin 0.1" right angle through-hole header to be installed near J6 and the DC power input, facing towards the middle of the ML405. If an ML405 clock board is attached with through pins to the J6 connector, the numbering for the pins will be different: Green=17, Blue=18, Gray=19, Purple=20.
          http://t2k-information.googlegroups.com/web/DCCLOSJumpOnClock.jpg?hl=en&gsc=Vmk07wsAAAC10f4VqY_4oP17PYqemwka
          http://t2k-information.googlegroups.com/web/DCCLOSJumpOnOptical.jpg?hl=en&gsc=Vmk07wsAAAC10f4VqY_4oP17PYqemwka
          http://t2k-information.googlegroups.com/web/DCCLOSJumpRightAngleHeader.jpg?hl=en&gsc=Vmk07wsAAAC10f4VqY_4oP17PYqemwka
          http://t2k-information.googlegroups.com/web/DCCLOSRightAnglePins.jpg?hl=en&gsc=Vmk07wsAAAC10f4VqY_4oP17PYqemwka
    * SMA right angle 6" jumper from ML405 to Optical Extension card for optical link 1 (RX-P and RX-N are opposite on ML405 and Optical Extension card and so must be crossed).
          http://t2k-information.googlegroups.com/web/DCCSMAJumpers.jpg?hl=en
    * SMB right angle 12" jumper from ML405 clock lines to Clock Extension card (each clock pair must be plugged in adjacent to eachother on the Clock Extension card). Attaching the clock lines is the most sensitive operation in building the DCC assembly. The existing capacitors on the ML405 must be removed and the coaxial cable soldered on to the side "closer" to the FPGA. The other side is a clock source on the ML405, and must not be connected to the clock board clock!
          http://t2k-information.googlegroups.com/web/ClockLineAttachA1.jpg?hl=en
    * PCB pin receptacle power jumper (2 wire) for Optical Extension card, which are soldered onto the ML405.
          http://t2k-information.googlegroups.com/web/DCCOpticalPowerWires.jpg?hl=en
          http://t2k-information.googlegroups.com/web/DCCOpticalPowerHeader.jpg?hl=en
    * SATA cable from ML405 to Optical Extension card for optical links 2 and 3. Note that the SATA cables must be crossed, so it is recommended that they be labelled on both sides.
          http://t2k-information.googlegroups.com/web/DCCSATA.jpg?hl=en
    * Tempurature sensor 7ft long cable, with 2-pin female socket rectangular header. This sensor is attached with epoxy to the ML405 heat sink. It is critical that the IC casing on the tempurature sensor be in contact with the heatsink, and that no electrical contact is made. The solder joints on the temperature sensor must be kept isolated from the heatsink, otherwise the signal will short out. When the sensors signal cable is plugged into the DCC power switch, the red wire must connect to the "top" pin relative to the words on the power switch.
         http://t2k-information.googlegroups.com/web/DCCTempSens.jpg?hl=en
         http://t2k-information.googlegroups.com/web/DCCTempSensOrientation.jpg?hl=en


Metal Base Plate:

    * Finger hole for ML405 link 0
    * Corner notches on same side as Compact Flash card (used to allow DCC plate to slide further forward in the DCC Crate)


Daughter Boards:

    * Clock Extension card, which needs four SMB (Jack male pin through hole) connectors. This board plugs into ML405 expansion header pin array. These do not come attached to the clock board and must be soldered on.
         http://t2k-information.googlegroups.com/web/DCCClockJumpers.jpg?hl=en
    * Optical Extension card, which contains three optical transceiver modules. This board mounts to the DCC base plate.

Optical Daughter Board Schematic and Pinouts:
http://t2k-information.googlegroups.com/web/clock_board_sch.pdf?hl=en&gsc=zp3HzAsAAAC5ALK7GVi_2KKrSN7T3_Vn
http://t2k-information.googlegroups.com/web/clock_board_2_pinout.pdf?hl=en&gsc=zp3HzAsAAAC5ALK7GVi_2KKrSN7T3_Vn

Assembly Pictures:
http://t2k-information.googlegroups.com/web/DCC%20Crate%20Front222.JPG?hl=en&gsc=pHg0ZAsAAACNfg8PHaZLPeEJmVaV4QKV

In order to get send the analog data from the FGD Front End Boards to the Data Concentrator Cards (modified ML405's) shown above, a Crate Master Board is employed. The schematics are here:
http://t2k-information.googlegroups.com/web/T2K_CMB_RevB.pdf?hl=en&gsc=m9GXuwsAAADi6EF4DQfVtePR8OqdInnV

In order to get that analog data from the Photon Detectors, a Front End Board is employed. This FEB captures the sensor data and stores it so the CMB can ask for it later. The design of this FEB is detailed here:
Edit: If you want the FEB report PM me and I will email it to you. The author decided that would be better than just posting it.

Cool stuff, but is this really stuff you should be sharing? Spilling your companies guts to satisfy some retarded is not the future.

Cool stuff, but is this really stuff you should be sharing? Spilling your companies guts to satisfy some retarded is not the future.

What this NASA intelligence officer is trying to tell you is that you are not sufficiently trained to promote the conspiracy, you might let something slip, which will have catastrophic consequences to the dominance of the RE conspiracy.

Quote from: LiceFarm on December 06, 2009, 07:10:42 PM

Cool stuff, but is this really stuff you should be sharing? Spilling your companies guts to satisfy some retarded is not the future.

What this NASA intelligence officer is trying to tell you is that you are not sufficiently trained to promote the conspiracy, you might let something slip, which will have catastrophic consequences to the dominance of the RE conspiracy.

No what I'm saying is that this stuff is of no use to the idiots on this forum, but might be useful to someone else, or more likely just piss off the boss if he finds out.

I must note that this is a straw man argument. The OP is clearly more confident in computer systems and uses this strenght to divert the question from the main issue, namely, the rectilinear propagation of neutrinos and their arrival at two distant points on Earth's surface. This is used to deduce that the outer surface is convex. But, there are two hidden assumptions.

The first one might seem as a bit of a desparate attempt from nitpickers, but, nevertheless, it is important. We have seen on this website a theory that proposes that light actually travels along curved paths being put forward. In this respect, the position of the Sun is not exactly where it appears to be on the sky. But, they use they 'prove' that neutrinos travel along a straight line by saying that the observed neutrinos come from a position where the sun appears to be on the sky. All I can deduce from this, in light of the above mentioned theory, is that neutrinos travel along the same path as light rays from the Sun.

Secondly, they always ommit to mention that the detector itself is not on the Earth's surface, but underground, and, for that matter, deep underground. Therefore, even straight paths for neutrions allow for detection on a Flat Earth.

Cool stuff, but is this really stuff you should be sharing? Spilling your companies guts to satisfy some retarded is not the future.

This information is developed by an international collaboration of government scientists and is not in any way secret. It is not part of a company or any IP as far as I know. The report on the FEB is a published and used to further that area of technology. The assembly instructions of the DCC at the top are very basic, and any electrical engineer or technologist would take one look at it and decide its a total mess (it was the most scalable option). Again the reason I posted it was to show that I am willing to provide people with hardware information so that they stop spamming serious discussion about solar neutrinos with posts like "show me the specs".

I must note that this is a straw man argument. The OP is clearly more confident in computer systems and uses this strenght to divert the question from the main issue, namely, the rectilinear propagation of neutrinos and their arrival at two distant points on Earth's surface. This is used to deduce that the outer surface is convex. But, there are two hidden assumptions.

The first one might seem as a bit of a desparate attempt from nitpickers, but, nevertheless, it is important. We have seen on this website a theory that proposes that light actually travels along curved paths being put forward. In this respect, the position of the Sun is not exactly where it appears to be on the sky. But, they use they 'prove' that neutrinos travel along a straight line by saying that the observed neutrinos come from a position where the sun appears to be on the sky. All I can deduce from this, in light of the above mentioned theory, is that neutrinos travel along the same path as light rays from the Sun.

Secondly, they always ommit to mention that the detector itself is not on the Earth's surface, but underground, and, for that matter, deep underground. Therefore, even straight paths for neutrions allow for detection on a Flat Earth.

This thread was to show that I can provide hardware information about a physics detector. I will answer your questions about beam neutrino's on the Beam Neutrino's thread.

This information is developed by an international collaboration of government scientists and is not in any way secret. It is not part of a company or any IP as far as I know.

Fair enough I was just asking because some places get very ratty about sending docs outside the company, secret or no.

Quote from: ERTW on December 06, 2009, 11:26:12 PM

This information is developed by an international collaboration of government scientists and is not in any way secret. It is not part of a company or any IP as far as I know.

Fair enough I was just asking because some places get very ratty about sending docs outside the company, secret or no.

To cover my ass I emailed my old supervisor to check:
"Yes, everything is public domain, though not documented."

Safe. Posting will continue.

By the way, does anyone else have a challenge to experimental physics hardware, or is it just Johannes?

A while back Johannes was looking for plans to build his own neutrino detector so that he could properly peer review solar neutrino experiments.

I suspect it was only an attempt to ask for something that most people don't have easy access to, hence stall the debate. However, if he honestly wishes to attempt this than he can post here with more questions.

I was on the MINOS website for about 40 seconds and found this TDR:
http://www-numi.fnal.gov/Minos/info/minos_tdr.html

I admit that this page "is dominated by government or somehow related sources", so take it with a grain (or infinite plane) of salt.

So does anyone still believe that neutrino experiments are impossible or made up? If so I can continue to find more information.

Why not just post the C++ code? Do you have something to hide?

While I appreciate your efforts, I do not have 100 million dollars to spend at the moment... Do you know of a cheaper way to peer review solar neutrinos?

Why not just post the C++ code? Do you have something to hide?

What makes you think that all of the code is in C++?

While I appreciate your efforts, I do not have 100 million dollars to spend at the moment... Do you know of a cheaper way to peer review solar neutrinos?

If there were a cheaper way do peer review solar neutrinos, don't you think that the researchers would be using it?

Quote from: Johannes on December 24, 2009, 04:41:23 PM

Why not just post the C++ code? Do you have something to hide?

What makes you think that all of the code is in C++?

Quote from: Johannes on December 24, 2009, 04:41:23 PM

While I appreciate your efforts, I do not have 100 million dollars to spend at the moment... Do you know of a cheaper way to peer review solar neutrinos?

If there were a cheaper way do peer review solar neutrinos, don't you think that the researchers would be using it?

He said the code was in C++

The researchers are claiming to do a lot more than just "detecting solar neutrinos", also I suspect the whole project is just a money making scheme anyway so the price is inflated.

Quote from: markjo on December 24, 2009, 10:42:33 PM

Quote from: Johannes on December 24, 2009, 04:41:23 PM

Why not just post the C++ code? Do you have something to hide?

What makes you think that all of the code is in C++?

Quote from: Johannes on December 24, 2009, 04:41:23 PM

While I appreciate your efforts, I do not have 100 million dollars to spend at the moment... Do you know of a cheaper way to peer review solar neutrinos?

If there were a cheaper way do peer review solar neutrinos, don't you think that the researchers would be using it?

He said the code was in C++

The researchers are claiming to do a lot more than just "detecting solar neutrinos", also I suspect the whole project is just a money making scheme anyway so the price is inflated.

The C++ code is very simple. The pseudo code for the data capture algorithm is in the presentation in the OP:
http://t2k-information.googlegroups.com/web/T2KFGDDAQ_Presentation.pdf?hl=en
This presentation also shows the data path through the hardware and FPGA firmware.
As far as the C++ code goes, I am only allowed to post the bits of code that I personally worked on. The code doesn't make sense out of context, and to post the entire data capture code would require me to get permission from like 4-5 people since I didn't write it personally.
Again, if you seriously want to get access to the C++ code, PM me and I can try to get you personal access to the SVN. I am not allowed to simply dump it into a forum because it is not all my work. It is however public domain and anyone should be able to get access to it if they really want to.

If the code is really public domain you should be able to "dump it"

If the code is really public domain you should be able to "dump it"

Like I said, I can get it, I just have to ask permission from several people since they also worked on it. It is not because I am legally obliged, but because these people are people I respect.

The simplest way to detect solar neutrinos is the method employed originally - with a giant tank of dry cleaning fluid*.  Enjoy!


*mine not included.

I am still waiting for a reply from my co-workers. However, I must admit that the code is not that complicated and you can intuit much of it from the pseudo-code that I wrote in my report. The only proprietary components that I can think of are the VHDL libraries for reading RAM and writing to Rocket IO FIFO's, both of which can be obtained easily (you can just by a Xilinx FPGA evaluation board, that is what we did!)
The real difficulty I found when working with this software is the emerging complexity when trying to integrate different types of hardware. Trying to get the DCC running Linux with C++ algorithms to talk to the CMB FPGA built from VHDL code and debug the data transfer, and then do it with 6 DCCs talking to 24 CMBs, that was what took 6 months of work! Luckily I had many excellent people to work with or I would never have gotten it to work. I am sure a particularly talented person or small group could figure all the different components out on their own, but there is a reason governments are doing these projects.

I never did bother posting any of the T2K code. If we were faking the entire experiment we'd probably just use the Monte Carlo to generate the data rather than cleverly write the software. It would be far easier to put the parameters we wanted into the neutrino generator than to painstakingly write reconstruction code to give a subtly different result. If Johannes is that bothered hes probably best going with the buying a few tonnes of cleaning fluid option.

The simplest way to detect solar neutrinos is the method employed originally - with a giant tank of dry cleaning fluid*.  Enjoy!


*mine not included.

Come back when you have a way to test this for less than millions of dollars...

Quote from: Matrix on December 30, 2009, 06:19:55 PM

The simplest way to detect solar neutrinos is the method employed originally - with a giant tank of dry cleaning fluid*.  Enjoy!


*mine not included.

Come back when you have a way to test this for less than millions of dollars...

Come back when you have a way to disprove millions of dollars of work with more than a weak argument like "I can't do it in my backyard".

Quote from: Johannes on January 08, 2010, 02:13:14 PM

Quote from: Matrix on December 30, 2009, 06:19:55 PM

The simplest way to detect solar neutrinos is the method employed originally - with a giant tank of dry cleaning fluid*.  Enjoy!


*mine not included.

Come back when you have a way to test this for less than millions of dollars...

Come back when you have a way to disprove millions of dollars of work with more than a weak argument like "I can't do it in my backyard".

wat?

Quote from: ERTW on January 08, 2010, 06:33:54 PM

Quote from: Johannes on January 08, 2010, 02:13:14 PM

Quote from: Matrix on December 30, 2009, 06:19:55 PM

The simplest way to detect solar neutrinos is the method employed originally - with a giant tank of dry cleaning fluid*.  Enjoy!


*mine not included.

Come back when you have a way to test this for less than millions of dollars...

Come back when you have a way to disprove millions of dollars of work with more than a weak argument like "I can't do it in my backyard".

wat?

Johannes wants to be able to peer review multi-million dollar neutrino experiments at home.  Sounds reasonable to me.

Do you even know what peer-review means?