Flat Earth not a theory.

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Crustinator

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Re: Flat Earth not a theory.
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2009, 08:09:20 AM »
I'm sorry, but any theory where you have to pretend that the Earth and Moon are one body in order to get accurate predictions has some serious flaws.

No not at all. This displays an alarming misunderstanding of physics.

But anyway... I'd like to see what FEers can put on the table as their solution to this problem.

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markjo

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Re: Flat Earth not a theory.
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2009, 08:56:01 AM »
I'm sorry, but any theory where you have to pretend that the Earth and Moon are one body in order to get accurate predictions has some serious flaws. Go outside and look at the sky tonight, and tell me if the Moon appears to be part of the Earth.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you believe that the FE model is immune from n-body problems?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 08:57:46 AM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Flat Earth not a theory.
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2009, 02:06:38 PM »
No not at all. This displays an alarming misunderstanding of physics.


Yeah, it's alarming that I don't consider the Earth and Moon to be one body ::)


But anyway... I'd like to see what FEers can put on the table as their solution to this problem.


What problem?


Just out of curiosity, what makes you believe that the FE model is immune from n-body problems?


What makes you think it isn't?
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Pseudointellect

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Re: Flat Earth not a theory.
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2009, 02:27:14 PM »
Quote from: Lord Wilmore
No not at all. This displays an alarming misunderstanding of physics.

Yeah, it's alarming that I don't consider the Earth and Moon to be one body ::)


This has been explained many, many times, but here's another take on it. If the sun is indeed ~93 million miles away, and if the moon is indeed ~235,000 miles away, then the moon and earth are about 400 times farther away from the sun than they are to each other. Surely you understand that accepted science maintains that the earth and moon are much, much closer together than the earth-moon system and the sun are? Gauss's Law implies that the gravitational field in a region is proportional to the mass enclosed divided by the surface area of the enclosed region. This means that the gravitational field through any region is approximately the same as if all the mass were concentrated at a single point in the center of the region. Because of this fact, we can show that if we were standing on the sun, the earth and moon would be so distant that the distance between the two would be insignificant, and we could treat them approximately as a single body at their center of mass. (a center of mass which would still be inside the earth)

Now imagine if we were to determine the Milky Way's gravitational influence on another distant galaxy. The galaxies are so far apart that they are approximately point masses located at the galactic center. Obviously, the billions of stars and nebulae in our galaxy are not all the same object, but the calculated gravitational influence would still be a very accurate description. After all, if we were to actually calculate billions of gravitational influences on billions of other gravitational influences, that would take far too long and yield very similar results, proving that our attempts were pretty much in vain.

In another example, potential energy of spring (1/2)kx^2 is only a first order power series approximation; it is only good for small angles, since sin(x) ≈ x for small angles. But would you deny that the energy stored in a spring is (1/2)kx^2? It is a very good approximation since the next few terms drop off with division by large factorials.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Flat Earth not a theory.
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2009, 02:42:15 PM »
Accurate predictions != truth
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Pseudointellect

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Re: Flat Earth not a theory.
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2009, 03:01:40 PM »
Then we can never find truth.

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Crustinator

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Re: Flat Earth not a theory.
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2009, 05:16:01 PM »
But anyway... I'd like to see what FEers can put on the table as their solution to this problem.

What problem?

The problem of 3 body systems, that you carefully pointed out were difficult to calculate under Newton. Remember? It wasn't that long ago.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you believe that the FE model is immune from n-body problems?
What makes you think it isn't?

I guess we all assumed there was some kind of point to your posts.

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W

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Re: Flat Earth not a theory.
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2009, 05:17:42 PM »
I agree with Lord Wilmore. On some things, at least.
If you say that the earth is flat, you are destroying centuries of evolution.

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bl4ke360

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Re: Flat Earth not a theory.
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2009, 05:40:18 PM »
Accurate predictions != truth

Even if this is true (in most cases not) it's irrelevant to the Earth because it being a sphere is not a prediction, it's a fact.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Oh, for God's sake... ::)
Look out your window.
Quote from: Bl4ke360
http://i33.tinypic.com/350t5s8.jpg

Is this supposed to prove something here?
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Looks pretty flat to me.

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Proleg

Re: Flat Earth not a theory.
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2009, 05:53:40 PM »
Accurate predictions != truth

Even if this is true (in most cases not) it's irrelevant to the Earth because it being a sphere is not a prediction, it's a fact.
You keep saying our points are irrelevant because the earth is a sphere. Do you not realize that you are simply parroting your position and offering no substance to the debate?

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markjo

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Re: Flat Earth not a theory.
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2009, 06:56:43 PM »
Just out of curiosity, what makes you believe that the FE model is immune from n-body problems?

What makes you think it isn't?

Well, let's see.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the FE solar system, the planets orbit the sun, correct?  The planets have moons that orbit them, correct?  And the sun orbits around...  I'm sorry, but what does the sun orbit around again?  Anyway, there are your n-bodies.  Knock yourself out.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Flat Earth not a theory.
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2009, 02:39:55 AM »
Surely they'd have to interact gravitationally for that to be the case, right?
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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markjo

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Re: Flat Earth not a theory.
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2009, 04:59:43 AM »
Surely they'd have to interact gravitationally for that to be the case, right?

Please clarify.  What would have to interact gravitationally?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Lord Wilmore

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Re: Flat Earth not a theory.
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2009, 09:37:19 AM »
Surely they'd have to interact gravitationally for that to be the case, right?

Please clarify.  What would have to interact gravitationally?


Said bodies. You need interaction to have a problem.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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markjo

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Re: Flat Earth not a theory.
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2009, 12:50:49 PM »
Surely they'd have to interact gravitationally for that to be the case, right?

Please clarify.  What would have to interact gravitationally?


Said bodies. You need interaction to have a problem.

Is it possible for the FE solar system not to have some sort of gravitational interaction with itself?  Do the planets orbit the sun in FET?  Does the sun orbit some center point above the north pole?  Do the planets have moons that orbit them?  Do the sun and moon have any gravitational effect on each other?  If the stars are only 100 or so miles above the sun and moon, are the stars gravitationally affected by the sun and moon?

Which of these interactions are gravitational and which are the result of some other force or phenomenon?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 12:52:43 PM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Lord Wilmore

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Re: Flat Earth not a theory.
« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2009, 04:11:52 PM »
I couldn't possibly say. But some people here don't believe there is any link between mass and gravitation.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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markjo

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Re: Flat Earth not a theory.
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2009, 05:32:43 PM »
I couldn't possibly say. But some people here don't believe there is any link between mass and gravitation.
And others do.  Sounds like another issue that needs to be resolved among FE'ers before FET can hope to make any serious progress.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.