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Night and Day

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Thermal Detonator

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #90 on: October 25, 2009, 04:58:59 AM »
So we're agreed then Parsifail - if the diagram was corrected to show the correct curvature for ground light (i.e. less curved than that of the Sun) and the point labelled past the sunlight's lowest point on the ground was moved a little closer to the plane, one would see the ground behind the sun.

And your statement that the ground light (blue line) has less curvature than the yellow one is just plain confusing, because they look the same to me.
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Parsifal

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #91 on: October 25, 2009, 08:50:28 AM »
Quote from: Thermal Detonator on October 25, 2009, 04:58:59 AM
So we're agreed then Parsifail - if the diagram was corrected to show the correct curvature for ground light (i.e. less curved than that of the Sun) and the point labelled past the sunlight's lowest point on the ground was moved a little closer to the plane, one would see the ground behind the sun.

If you move the point where the blue line touches the ground sufficiently closer to the aeroplane for this to happen, it would coincide with the yellow line. This represents the point where the Sun appears to disappear behind the horizon; the only point where the Sun and the ground are both visible, because it is the boundary between them.

Quote from: Thermal Detonator on October 25, 2009, 04:58:59 AM
And your statement that the ground light (blue line) has less curvature than the yellow one is just plain confusing, because they look the same to me.

Sorry, I was referring to the red line. The blue line is too sharply curved, in my opinion.
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Quote from: Ævan on August 11, 2013, 01:18:20 PM
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Thermal Detonator

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #92 on: October 25, 2009, 10:30:32 AM »
Quote from: Parsifal on October 25, 2009, 08:50:28 AM

Sorry, I was referring to the red line. The blue line is too sharply curved, in my opinion.

So we both agree there.
And if the blue line curves less sharply than the yellow line (which it would, the light not having travelled so far) then it's a logical consequence that a point further from the observer than the point at which the yellow line began its upward bend away from horizontal would be visible to the observer. My point proven, again.
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EnigmaZV

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #93 on: October 25, 2009, 11:06:56 AM »
The amount the light has bent is not dependent upon the distance it has traveled.  If you'd bother to look at the formulae given to you, you'd see that the amount by which light is bent is dependent upon the angle of the light with respect to the ground (not actually the ground, but is easiest to understand this way)  The more vertical the light rays are, the less they'll bend per unit distance, the more horizonal, the more they'll bend per unit distance.
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Parsifal

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #94 on: October 25, 2009, 11:10:24 AM »
Quote from: Thermal Detonator on October 25, 2009, 10:30:32 AM
And if the blue line curves less sharply than the yellow line (which it would, the light not having travelled so far)

No it wouldn't.
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Quote from: Ævan on August 11, 2013, 01:18:20 PM
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.
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Thermal Detonator

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #95 on: October 25, 2009, 11:32:29 AM »
Quote from: Parsifal on October 25, 2009, 08:50:28 AM
The blue line is too sharply curved, in my opinion.

You're just gibbering rubbish now, contradicting your previous posts in a futile attempt to answer back. Face it, the bendy light theory is screwed. End of.
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Parsifal

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #96 on: October 25, 2009, 09:47:12 PM »
Quote from: Thermal Detonator on October 25, 2009, 11:32:29 AM
You're just gibbering rubbish now, contradicting your previous posts in a futile attempt to answer back. Face it, the bendy light theory is screwed. End of.

I see no contradiction. The blue line should have the same curvature as the yellow line, but it does not.
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Quote from: Ævan on August 11, 2013, 01:18:20 PM
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.
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Euclid

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #97 on: October 26, 2009, 01:19:23 PM »


This is a good diagram, except for the blue line.

In order to show that the sun appears superimposed on the ground, you have to show there is a set of light rays coming from the ground that intersect the plane above the yellow curve.  If you believe they exist, please draw them.
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contract_feral

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #98 on: October 27, 2009, 02:03:28 AM »
I did the light rays experiment in year 10 science, light only bends when passing from one medium to another and it doesn't bend very significantly (to the point that the sun far away turns into a setting sun on the horizon) there is mathematics which explain why light (RE) does what it does, do you have a reason for why the light bends. Or for that matter, why the sun is a spot light. I think it is a safe bet that every single REer here would agree on at least the basic structure of what our belief is placed on, however on so many of these posts throughout the forum often have FEers disagreeing on some of the most crucial points which can support you "theory", you guys should get your act together if you want anybody to believe you, but maybe you possibly all disagree because you are all intellectually inept.

HEY EVERYONE GET THIS.... PARSIFAL wouldn't answer one of my questions and still hasn't answered based on the grounding of my "bad" grammar.           
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Ejak2021

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #99 on: October 27, 2009, 06:13:39 PM »
I made this diagram here to explain the effect everyone is discussing.  It is as simple as possible, with only 2 lines and the Earth...and the Sun.  The curves are identical.  The light coming from the Sun starts out perpendicular (pretty much) to the Surface, from the middle (pretty much);  If you have a problem with the inaccuracy, you can move the sun around and the validity is unaffected, as the effect should occur at multiple points.  The red line starts at 0*, so it is the farthest away you could see on its corresponding light curve ray thingy.  Though, it still hasn't been pinned down exactly how bendy light is alleged to travel--what curve, exactly, it will follow.

Anyway, analyze:



ONE MORE THING:  Light radiates out in all directions, doesn't it?  So, the light ray could be coming from any point?  The FES should work on bendy-light paths, rather than leaving it up to RE'ers.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 06:20:37 PM by Ejak2021 »
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Euclid

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #100 on: October 27, 2009, 06:32:20 PM »
So what exactly are you trying to show in this diagram?
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Yes, thanks to the tireless efforts of Euclid and a few other mathematically-inclined members, electromagnetic acceleration is fast moving into the forefront of FE research.
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Ejak2021

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #101 on: October 27, 2009, 08:21:30 PM »
Quote from: Euclid on October 27, 2009, 06:32:20 PM
So what exactly are you trying to show in this diagram?
Same thing all the others have been brought up to explain--the sun appearing superimposed on the ground at sunset.  When light from the sun curves back up, it will intersect light from the ground at some point.  If you look at the two intersecting beams of light, you will see the sun and the ground at the same time.  I could be confused, though.

[Good job, mods with the page-stretching and stuff.]
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 08:29:00 PM by Ejak2021 »
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Parsifal

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #102 on: October 27, 2009, 09:43:06 PM »
Quote from: Ejak2021 on October 27, 2009, 08:21:30 PM
Same thing all the others have been brought up to explain--the sun appearing superimposed on the ground at sunset.  When light from the sun curves back up, it will intersect light from the ground at some point.  If you look at the two intersecting beams of light, you will see the sun and the ground at the same time.  I could be confused, though.

Just because the beams intersect doesn't mean they appear in the same place. They would be approaching an observer from different angles; the ground would still appear below the Sun.
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Quote from: Ævan on August 11, 2013, 01:18:20 PM
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.
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contract_feral

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #103 on: October 27, 2009, 10:19:31 PM »
do you have any proof of this ?
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Parsifal

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #104 on: October 27, 2009, 11:13:43 PM »
Quote from: contract_feral on October 27, 2009, 10:19:31 PM
do you have any proof of this ?

His diagram supports the idea, funnily enough.
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Quote from: Ævan on August 11, 2013, 01:18:20 PM
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.
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EnigmaZV

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #105 on: October 28, 2009, 08:07:02 AM »
Quote from: Ejak2021
Here's the problem: behind where the lines cross, the middle of the sun is visual below the horizon

Here's another problem.  Behind where the lines cross, the lines don't cross anymore.  Both objects can only be visible using those specific lines at that specific location.  If you were to move farther back along the line representing the sun's light, the red "horizon" line would no longer be visible.  If you were to move farther back along the line representing the horizon, then you would have to redraw the line from the sun to the observer.
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Quote from: Saddam Hussein on February 27, 2009, 03:43:45 PM
I don't know what you're implying, but you're probably wrong.
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Skeleton

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #106 on: October 28, 2009, 01:13:55 PM »
I think this disproves bendy light even if Eclid and Parsy dont.
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EnigmaZV

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #107 on: October 28, 2009, 03:22:45 PM »
Quote from: Skeleton on October 28, 2009, 01:13:55 PM
I think this disproves bendy light even if Eclid and Parsy dont.

I think a reason why would be a good way to progress this discussion.  Also, you should be a little more specific than "this".
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Quote from: Saddam Hussein on February 27, 2009, 03:43:45 PM
I don't know what you're implying, but you're probably wrong.
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Ejak2021

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #108 on: October 28, 2009, 05:52:32 PM »
@ enigma:  shouldn't there be a light ray identical to that one coming from all sides of the sun?  Otherwise, you'd only see part of the sun at any one time.  And does bendy light always curve at a steady rate?

Quote from: Parsifal on October 27, 2009, 09:43:06 PM
Just because the beams intersect doesn't mean they appear in the same place. They would be approaching an observer from different angles; the ground would still appear below the Sun.
Okay, I can see that in my brain.  I'm gonna make ONE more diagram..
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EnigmaZV

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #109 on: October 28, 2009, 05:56:41 PM »
Quote from: Ejak2021 on October 28, 2009, 05:52:32 PM
@ enigma:  shouldn't there be a light ray identical to that one coming from all sides of the sun?  Otherwise, you'd only see part of the sun at any one time.  And does bendy light always curve at a steady rate?

In order to see the whole sun, each light ray would have to come out of the sun at a slightly different angle.  The angle between the extreme "edges" of the sun entering your eyes gives you information about its size and shape.

I believe Parsifal has answered the question about the curvature.  The short answer is yes, in the same way that a parabola curves at a steady rate.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 06:00:36 PM by EnigmaZV »
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Quote from: Saddam Hussein on February 27, 2009, 03:43:45 PM
I don't know what you're implying, but you're probably wrong.
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Ejak2021

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #110 on: October 28, 2009, 06:41:43 PM »
Quote from: EnigmaZV on October 28, 2009, 05:56:41 PM


In order to see the whole sun, each light ray would have to come out of the sun at a slightly different angle.  The angle between the extreme "edges" of the sun entering your eyes gives you information about its size and shape.

I believe Parsifal has answered the question about the curvature.  The short answer is yes, in the same way that a parabola curves at a steady rate.
I really hate my internet. (failed to post my reply)

How I understand Bendy Light:  Light follows a parabola.  The parabola is always oriented the same way.  So, light originating on the side of the Sun starts at the bottom of the dip in the parabola.  Light from the bottom of the Sun starts in a steep part.

I might make a diagram of this.

I didn't create the intersecting light argument, so I may have misunderstood it.  I haven't really seen anyone try to disprove it beyond saying "it won't happen."  But, I think it won't happen from the insight provided by this discussion.

I just thought of a really good question, though, so I am going to make a thread in Q&C.  I think its better suited to D&D.

Also, I just realized I copied my post in case the internet failed, so it was on my clipboard and I didn't have to type that.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 06:49:06 PM by Ejak2021 »
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Milky

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #111 on: October 31, 2009, 09:31:36 PM »
How do we know the sun is 32 miles in diameter when you cant prove space flight is possible.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #112 on: October 31, 2009, 10:19:13 PM »
Quote from: Milky on October 31, 2009, 09:31:36 PM
How do we know the sun is 32 miles in diameter when you cant prove space flight is possible.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Diameter+of+the+Sun
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markjo

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #113 on: November 01, 2009, 12:11:13 AM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on October 31, 2009, 10:19:13 PM
Quote from: Milky on October 31, 2009, 09:31:36 PM
How do we know the sun is 32 miles in diameter when you cant prove space flight is possible.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Diameter+of+the+Sun

Quote from: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Diameter+of+the+Sun
If a navigator neglects to apply the sun's radius to his observation at sea, he is 16 nautical miles (nearly) out in calculating the position his ship is in. A minute of arc on the sextant represents a nautical mile, and if the radius of the sun is 16 miles, the diameter is of course 32 miles. And as measured by the sextant, the sun's diameter is 32 minutes of arc, that is 32 nautical miles in diameter.

Hence, we see evidence independent of any particular theory showing that the sun is an entity of blistering heat 32 miles in diameter.

???  One arc minute is equal to one nautical mile on earth, yes.  But what does that have to do with the diameter of the sun?  Without knowing the distance to the sun, it's impossible to calculate the actual size of the sun from its apparent size.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 01:42:25 AM by markjo »
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Thermal Detonator

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #114 on: November 01, 2009, 03:47:46 AM »
Yes, Bishop. The sun could be twice as far away but twice the size, or half the size and twice as close. Its apparent diameter would be the same in these cases. So your nonsense about sextants is worthless.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #115 on: November 02, 2009, 04:06:26 PM »
Quote from: markjo on November 01, 2009, 12:11:13 AM
Quote from: Tom Bishop on October 31, 2009, 10:19:13 PM
Quote from: Milky on October 31, 2009, 09:31:36 PM
How do we know the sun is 32 miles in diameter when you cant prove space flight is possible.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Diameter+of+the+Sun

Quote from: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Diameter+of+the+Sun
If a navigator neglects to apply the sun's radius to his observation at sea, he is 16 nautical miles (nearly) out in calculating the position his ship is in. A minute of arc on the sextant represents a nautical mile, and if the radius of the sun is 16 miles, the diameter is of course 32 miles. And as measured by the sextant, the sun's diameter is 32 minutes of arc, that is 32 nautical miles in diameter.

Hence, we see evidence independent of any particular theory showing that the sun is an entity of blistering heat 32 miles in diameter.

???  One arc minute is equal to one nautical mile on earth, yes.  But what does that have to do with the diameter of the sun?  Without knowing the distance to the sun, it's impossible to calculate the actual size of the sun from its apparent size.

It's comparing the arc minutes of the sun to the distance traveled on the earth to gauge an accurate reference for its diameter.

Quote
Yes, Bishop. The sun could be twice as far away but twice the size, or half the size and twice as close. Its apparent diameter would be the same in these cases. So your nonsense about sextants is worthless.

If it were closer or father the sextant would give a different reading and the navigator would experience a different result in his travels.
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markjo

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #116 on: November 02, 2009, 05:05:54 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on November 02, 2009, 04:06:26 PM
It's comparing the arc minutes of the sun to the distance traveled on the earth to gauge an accurate reference for its diameter.
And it's wrong.  If you don't know the distance to the sun, you can't tell it's actual size from it's apparent size.  lrn2perspective

Quote from: Tom Bishop on November 02, 2009, 04:06:26 PM
If it were closer or father the sextant would give a different reading and the navigator would experience a different result in his travels.
???  How?  A sextant is used to measure the angular altitude of the sun above the horizon.  If the apparent size of the sun is the same, how can a navigator tell the difference between a small sun that's closer and a large sun that far away?  The sextant reading would be the same.
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SupahLovah

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #117 on: November 03, 2009, 09:02:00 AM »
The question to ask is how did you get the distance from earth to sun?
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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #118 on: December 28, 2009, 09:48:43 PM »
I've read this whole topic and I don't see how the Sun's distance is relevant to this.
It still wouldn't answer the question as to why in one location it would appear to be night, why at the that same location but at a higher altitude, it would be day.
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Misterkami

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #119 on: March 20, 2010, 03:23:54 AM »
Can someone give a graphical explanation for the bendy light explanation in case of sunset and sunrise? I can see how the light that would bend towards the horizon would make the sun appear lower to a person who is far away from the point the sun is above.. but I'm trying to visually comprehend waht the rays of light are doing so a person even further away cannot see the sun anymore.

Right now I'm somehow picturing rays of light bending till they follow the horizon, sorta like a lying tangent graphic. I guess my fault is that it doesn't bend up that far and it won't reach that much surface area.. but can someone send me a link to a picture?
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