Night and Day

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Night and Day
« on: September 09, 2009, 02:59:47 PM »
I got this from the FAQ :
Quote
The sun and moon, each 32 miles in diameter, rotate at a height of 3000 miles above sea level. As they are spotlights, they only illuminate certain places. This explains why there are nights and days on Earth.

Leaving aside the ability to measure the distance to the moon using different methods, there are problems with the sun and moon being spotlights.

First of all I understand not all FEt's agree that the sun is a spotlight. Please explain night and day.
Second, if the sun is a spotlight, we should not see a big circle of light passing over the sky, but an elliptical shape staying at the same place gradually becoming a circle as it focuses towards us, and after that getting thinner until it becomes a line and dissapear.

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Johannes

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2009, 03:31:03 PM »
The sun is a sphere. It acts like a spotlight, when the sun is over your part of the world you experience day.

Re: Night and Day
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2009, 04:19:20 PM »
The sun is a sphere. It acts like a spotlight, when the sun is over your part of the world you experience day.

Really because every one of your other loony friends are saying it's a flat disc, and the reason it looks like a perfect circle over the horizon, is due to magical "bendy light".
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Oh, for God's sake... ::)
Look out your window.
Quote from: Bl4ke360
http://i33.tinypic.com/350t5s8.jpg

Is this supposed to prove something here?
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Looks pretty flat to me.

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Parsifal

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2009, 05:12:47 PM »
Really because every one of your other loony friends are saying it's a flat disc, and the reason it looks like a perfect circle over the horizon, is due to magical "bendy light".

I don't think it makes any sense for it to be a flat disc either.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Night and Day
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2009, 06:11:57 PM »
Really because every one of your other loony friends are saying it's a flat disc, and the reason it looks like a perfect circle over the horizon, is due to magical "bendy light".

I don't think it makes any sense for it to be a flat disc either.

I don't think it makes sense you think the sun is 32 miles wide. What's your point?

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Parsifal

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2009, 06:24:43 PM »
I don't think it makes sense you think the sun is 32 miles wide. What's your point?

That Kepler is not the only FEer who doesn't believe in the "flat disc" model of the Sun.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2009, 08:12:10 PM »
I thought only James advocated the sun is a disc idea.

Re: Night and Day
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2009, 10:55:48 PM »
If it is a sphere (or even a focused spotlight), it should be visible from anywhere on the earth.
If the sun can only be above, where is it when it is night.
Is this attributed to the bending light phenomena ?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 10:57:36 PM by senoctar »

Re: Night and Day
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2009, 01:39:22 AM »
If the sun is a spotlight, and stars does not exist, how can we see in the sky celestial bodies that shine?

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Squat

Re: Night and Day
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2009, 02:15:25 AM »
If the sun 'acts like a spotlight' then what mechanism directs the sunlight? Surely this mechanism would be visible especially at sunrise and sunset when the 'spotlight effect' would be 'turning off' (for want of a better phrase). But the sun always appears round - indicating that it can't be a disc and there is no evidence of any shrouding that would create a spotlight effect.

The whole idea of the sun 'acting like a spotlight' may give an answer for a flat earth believer but it doesn't stand up to even basic scrutiny. In the absence of any observable phenomena that can prove the 'spotlight' effect one has to conclude that it is just a poorly thought out idea to try and justify a faith based hypothesis.

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Parsifal

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2009, 02:52:08 AM »
If it is a sphere (or even a focused spotlight), it should be visible from anywhere on the earth.
If the sun can only be above, where is it when it is night.
Is this attributed to the bending light phenomena ?

Yes.

If the sun is a spotlight, and stars does not exist, how can we see in the sky celestial bodies that shine?

Who said that stars do not exist?

If the sun 'acts like a spotlight' then what mechanism directs the sunlight? Surely this mechanism would be visible especially at sunrise and sunset when the 'spotlight effect' would be 'turning off' (for want of a better phrase). But the sun always appears round - indicating that it can't be a disc and there is no evidence of any shrouding that would create a spotlight effect.

The whole idea of the sun 'acting like a spotlight' may give an answer for a flat earth believer but it doesn't stand up to even basic scrutiny. In the absence of any observable phenomena that can prove the 'spotlight' effect one has to conclude that it is just a poorly thought out idea to try and justify a faith based hypothesis.

The spotlight form of the Sun's illumination upon the Earth is, in my opinion, caused by the curvature of light rays. As light from the Sun travels towards the Earth (except for perfectly vertical light), it bends towards the horizontal. At locations on the Earth's surface where it is sunrise or sunset, the light has bent all the way to horizontal by the time it reaches the Earth. Places which are further away from the Sun than this are not illuminated because the light bends back on itself before it can reach the Earth.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Night and Day
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2009, 02:57:04 AM »


Who said that stars do not exist?


You said that a star does not emit lights. So, if the sun is a spotlight, how can we see stars?

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Parsifal

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2009, 02:58:02 AM »
You said that a star does not emit lights. So, if the sun is a spotlight, how can we see stars?

Because the Sun emits light in all directions, which irradiates the stars, which in turn causes them to heat up. The spotlight effect is caused by light bending away from the Earth.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Night and Day
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2009, 03:05:37 AM »
You said that a star does not emit lights. So, if the sun is a spotlight, how can we see stars?

Because the Sun emits light in all directions, which irradiates the stars, which in turn causes them to heat up. The spotlight effect is caused by light bending away from the Earth.

I don't understand. The sun SEEMS a spotlight or IS a spotlight, in FEt? I think it's not and it neither seems a spotlight.

OFF TOPIC: I want to stress that you said yesterday that sustained spaceflight is possible in FEt, but no one change the FAQ accordingly.

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Parsifal

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2009, 03:08:00 AM »
I don't understand. The sun SEEMS a spotlight or IS a spotlight, in FEt?

Some people believe that it seems like a spotlight, others believe that it actually is one. Those who believe that it is actually a spotlight probably also believe that stars generate their own light.

OFF TOPIC: I want to stress that you said yesterday that sustained spaceflight is possible in FEt, but no one change the FAQ accordingly.

I cannot change the FAQ. You will need to wait for a moderator to do so, if they take my statement seriously enough to bother with it.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Night and Day
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2009, 04:08:40 AM »
The spotlight form of the Sun's illumination upon the Earth is, in my opinion, caused by the curvature of light rays. As light from the Sun travels towards the Earth (except for perfectly vertical light), it bends towards the horizontal.

Light doesn't bend in this way.

If you want it to you'll have to create a new universe with bendy light.

Good luck with that.

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Parsifal

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2009, 04:15:54 AM »
Light doesn't bend in this way.

Do you have any evidence for this claim?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Night and Day
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2009, 04:24:23 AM »
Light doesn't bend in this way.

Do you have any evidence for this claim?

Try Maxwells equations.

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Parsifal

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2009, 04:29:16 AM »
Try Maxwells equations.

Maxwell's equations do not provide a complete description of light.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Night and Day
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2009, 04:31:36 AM »
Try Maxwells equations.

Maxwell's equations do not provide a complete description of light.

Feel free to quote me where I said "Maxwell's equations provide a complete description of light."

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Parsifal

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2009, 04:32:57 AM »
Feel free to quote me where I said "Maxwell's equations provide a complete description of light."

If light is known to behave in ways not described by Maxwell's equations, then how do Maxwell's equations prove that light does not behave in a certain way?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Night and Day
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2009, 04:56:09 AM »
The atmosphere can diffuse light pretty well.
The light of a nuclear explosion can be seen as far as 1000 Km (volcano eruptions, space launches and other light sources have similar visibility ranges).
At the equator, the sun can be completely set but a 500 Km away it is fully visible. At distances of 3000 Km it can be day in one place and night in the other. How can an object incredibly brighter than a nuclear explosion not be visible at 3000 Km, but an explosion that merely reaches the stratosphere be seen from 1000Km away (this is using the naked eye in daytime, at night with binoculars it can be spotted at 3000Km due to mirroring effect of the stratosphere).

Re: Night and Day
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2009, 05:14:06 AM »
Light doesn't bend in this way.

Do you have any evidence for this claim?

If you get in a plane at 10.000 Km the light being reflected by the earth shows no traces of being curved, long distances keep their proportions (after calculating the perspective). Still the light has already traveled through 2/3 of the air molecules.

Also amateur rockets can reach over 100Km in height. Here there is almost no air so the light coming from earth would have passed more than 90% of the total air particles the light from the sun would encounter towards earth. Still the images show no evidence of light coming from the earth being bent.

Keep in mind that the angle you claim the light is bent is incredible, if the sun is 3000 miles up, when it moves there will be a relatively small variation of the angle at witch the light enters the atmosphere.

Re: Night and Day
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2009, 05:21:01 AM »
Feel free to quote me where I said "Maxwell's equations provide a complete description of light."

If light is known to behave in ways not described by Maxwell's equations, then how do Maxwell's equations prove that light does not behave in a certain way?

Because the description of light that Maxwells equations provide is one that descripbes light propagating in a straight line (for want of a better term).

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Parsifal

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2009, 05:52:34 AM »
If you get in a plane at 10.000 Km the light being reflected by the earth shows no traces of being curved, long distances keep their proportions (after calculating the perspective). Still the light has already traveled through 2/3 of the air molecules.

If long distances keep their proportions from an altitude of 10 km, then the Earth does not appear curved as many REers claim it does.

Also amateur rockets can reach over 100Km in height. Here there is almost no air so the light coming from earth would have passed more than 90% of the total air particles the light from the sun would encounter towards earth. Still the images show no evidence of light coming from the earth being bent.

They don't? I was under the impression images at that altitude clearly showed the Earth appearing to curve away into the distance. Furthermore, the air is not what bends light in EA theory.

Keep in mind that the angle you claim the light is bent is incredible, if the sun is 3000 miles up, when it moves there will be a relatively small variation of the angle at witch the light enters the atmosphere.

Most of the bending would be done before the light even reaches the atmolayer.

Because the description of light that Maxwells equations provide is one that descripbes light propagating in a straight line (for want of a better term).

Do you have any evidence that an inertial frame of reference for light is the same as an inertial frame of reference for mass?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Night and Day
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2009, 07:07:09 AM »
Do you have any evidence that an inertial frame of reference for light is the same as an inertial frame of reference for mass?

False dilema again (is that your trump card?)

Really you just need to go away and read Maxwells equations. Come back when you're done.

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Parsifal

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2009, 07:37:17 AM »
Do you have any evidence that an inertial frame of reference for light is the same as an inertial frame of reference for mass?

False dilema again (is that your trump card?)

Really you just need to go away and read Maxwells equations. Come back when you're done.

How is it a false dilemma if I didn't provide you with any sort of dilemma at all? Is just saying "false dilemma" in the hope that your opponent thinks you understand the situation better than they do and goes away your trump card?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: Night and Day
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2009, 07:47:36 AM »
How is it a false dilemma if I didn't provide you with any sort of dilemma at all? Is just saying "false dilemma" in the hope that your opponent thinks you understand the situation better than they do and goes away your trump card?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

Read it. Learn it. Survive.

Re: Night and Day
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2009, 08:05:15 AM »
If long distances keep their proportions from an altitude of 10 km, then the Earth does not appear curved as many REers claim it does.

They don't? I was under the impression images at that altitude clearly showed the Earth appearing to curve away into the distance. Furthermore, the air is not what bends light in EA theory.

Yes, i stated that signs of curving due to light being bent by the atmosphere are not visible. Though similar, the "bending ratio" would be different from the ratio caused by earth being round. But it makes no sense to in details about this or debate it since you're not stating the light is being bent in the atmosphere.

Most of the bending would be done before the light even reaches the atmolayer.

This does not explain how do we see the sunset. If the light is bent so high, we would still see the sun above and going dim, not going over the horizon while it is still quite bright.
In order to see something somewhere, either the object has to be there or the light has to be bent or reflected towards us but from there, not 500Km up of where we actually see it.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 08:08:39 AM by senoctar »

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Parsifal

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Re: Night and Day
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2009, 08:16:09 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

Read it. Learn it. Survive.

A false dilemma requires a dilemma to begin with.

Yes, i stated that signs of curving due to light being bent by the atmosphere are not visible. Though similar, the "bending ratio" would be different from the ratio caused by earth being round. But it makes no sense to in details about this or debate it since you're not stating the light is being bent in the atmosphere.

It all depends on how the light curves. The closer it is to a perfect secant curve, the more closely it would mimic a spherical Earth.

This does not explain how do we see the sunset. If the light is bent so high, we would still see the sun above and going dim, not going over the horizon while it is still quite bright.
In order to see something somewhere, either the object has to be there or the light has to be bent or reflected towards us but from there, not 500Km up of where we actually see it.

The only thing that matters is the direction from which the light is coming when it reaches the observer. It doesn't matter what distance it takes for the Sun's light to bend to horizontal, an observer at any point where it is horizontal will see the Sun as if it is level with them.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.