Poll

FE or RE?

Flat Earth
2 (20%)
Round Earth
8 (80%)

Total Members Voted: 8

Voting closed: July 01, 2006, 11:01:54 PM

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A Few Questions...

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No_OnE

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A Few Questions...
« on: July 01, 2006, 11:01:54 PM »
1* - If the Earth is flat, why did we ever decide to call it round?
2* - What gives you the reason to think the Earth is flat, why not just accept what science seems to prove?  Have you ever actually seen real proof of the earth being flat?
3* - How come, when I fly on a plane from one place to another, I can actually see the curvature of the Earth?
4* - Why didn't the government shut this site down? (The answer in your FAQ is really stupid.  In no way is this site large enough for it to be a hazard for them to shut this down.  

I'm really not looking for a flame-war here, so anyone who is gonna try and flame at anyone else, stay out.  I'm just looking for a few of my questions to be answered and then if an arguement breaks out, I want it to be a sensible one.  Also, I put a poll in to give myself an idea of, out of the active posters, who believes what...  

Lastly, I have no problem with the FEers, you have your beliefs and I have mine.  I just have a hard time believing that, out of all of the airline pilots (I personally know one), air traffic controlers (I personally know one), geologists, government workers, and anyone else who knows this secret hasn't let anything slip.

Hehe, my mistake, I just gave the FEers 1 in the poll...  I wasn't paying attention to where I was clicking...
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Desu

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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2006, 11:11:52 PM »
Would it be completely illogical to conclude that the Earth is Flat from personal observation? I look out my window and I see more or less a flat landscape. If I was a betting Desu, and I'm not, I'd say the Earth appears to be flat from a logical point of view based solely on personal observation. Now from a scientific and mathematical point of view, that's a different story, but how many times do you really bring complicated science and math into your daily observations?

Just a thought.

EDIT AGAIN: I should really read what I'm typing.
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Easter_Bunny

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« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2006, 11:23:34 PM »
I'm an RE'r but I can give you the FE answer to some of your questions.

1. The Governments of the world apparently all conspired to make us think the earth is round. They did this to proce that if they can fool people on the shape of the earth, they can make us belive anything.

2. They use all sorts of "common sense" such as "if the earth was round the people at the bottom would fall off", see the FAQ for other "proofs".

3. Apparently airlines are in on the conspiracy and curved glass is used on the windows to make the earth look round.

4. The FE's claim the government doesn't shut the site down because everyone's first thought when they see the site is "i can't believe people still think the earth is flat, what morons!". Thus the government still has control because people think the FE'rs are crazy because the RE model is so engrained in the world now.
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EnCrypto

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« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2006, 11:45:14 PM »
Quote from: "Desu"
Would it be completely illogical to conclude that the Earth is Flat from personal observation? I look out my window and I see more or less a flat landscape. If I was a betting Desu, and I'm not, I'd say the Earth appears to be flat from a logical point of view based solely on personal observation. Now from a scientific and mathematical point of view, that's a different story, but how many times do you really bring complicated science and math into your daily observations?

Just a thought.

EDIT AGAIN: I should really read what I'm typing.

What about using personal observation to observe the curvature of the Earth from an airplane?
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Desu

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« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2006, 11:57:35 PM »
Quote from: "EnCrypto"

What about using personal observation to observe the curvature of the Earth from an airplane?


You could come to the conclusion that it's round, but you could also conclude it's just concave.

With the knowledge of physics and astronomy that we have today, we could very easily prove the Earth to be round. The point I'm trying to make is to the common man with little knowledge of physics that can't be acquired through observation with the naked eye, and has no access to historical records (photographs etc.) it's a much more logical conclusion that the Earth is flat.
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Mephistopheles

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« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2006, 12:17:36 AM »
Quote from: "Desu"
Quote from: "EnCrypto"

What about using personal observation to observe the curvature of the Earth from an airplane?


You could come to the conclusion that it's round, but you could also conclude it's just concave.

With the knowledge of physics and astronomy that we have today, we could very easily prove the Earth to be round. The point I'm trying to make is to the common man with little knowledge of physics that can't be acquired through observation with the naked eye, and has no access to historical records (photographs etc.) it's a much more logical conclusion that the Earth is flat.


Apparently, you don't need to live under a rock to believe this idea.  Of course, we will never know what exactly triggers the change of beliefs in people, regardless of what shape they believe the Earth to be.
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No_OnE

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« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2006, 12:25:09 AM »
Quote from: "Desu"
Quote from: "EnCrypto"

What about using personal observation to observe the curvature of the Earth from an airplane?

You could come to the conclusion that it's round, but you could also conclude it's just concave.

Well, we could conclude it's concave but that wouldn't make sense considering we see the curve stretching over such a small part of the earth.  My point is, the curve we see from airplanes is too great for the Earth to be concave...
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Mephistopheles

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« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2006, 12:27:04 AM »
Quote from: "No_OnE"
Quote from: "Desu"
Quote from: "EnCrypto"

What about using personal observation to observe the curvature of the Earth from an airplane?

You could come to the conclusion that it's round, but you could also conclude it's just concave.

Well, we could conclude it's concave but that wouldn't make sense considering we see the curve stretching over such a small part of the earth.  My point is, the curve we see from airplanes is too great for the Earth to be concave...


How so?  Things aren't always as they seem, as the saying goes.
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No_OnE

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« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2006, 12:28:34 AM »
Quote from: "Mephistopheles"
Quote from: "No_OnE"
Quote from: "Desu"
Quote from: "EnCrypto"

What about using personal observation to observe the curvature of the Earth from an airplane?

You could come to the conclusion that it's round, but you could also conclude it's just concave.

Well, we could conclude it's concave but that wouldn't make sense considering we see the curve stretching over such a small part of the earth.  My point is, the curve we see from airplanes is too great for the Earth to be concave...


How so?  Things aren't always as they seem, as the saying goes.

Geometry and Earth Sciences teach us this...  I mean, I have more of a mathematical view on life so I guess this is kind of automatic for me...
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Mephistopheles

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« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2006, 12:39:06 AM »
It is good that you are Geometry minded.  There is alot of discussion here that involves (obviously) Geometry.

I'm not questioning why you believe in a Round Earth, but simply why the same curvature could not be accepted on both models.  You'd be surprised at how many things will remain the same on a Flat Earth as a round one.  For instance, I can go East without deviating that direction and end up at the same spot on a Flat Earth.  It was always odd that the whole "If I were to go one direction and end up at the same spot, the Earth would be round!" idea reccurs throughout childhood learning.
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No_OnE

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« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2006, 12:42:50 AM »
Hmm...  I just thought up another question:

How do you explain me flying from california to Japan...  I obviously don't go across the U.S and over the Atlantic ocean...  I would go over the Pacific, but wouldn't that be impossible on the FE model?
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Desu

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« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2006, 12:44:43 AM »
Quote from: "No_OnE"

Geometry and Earth Sciences teach us this...  I mean, I have more of a mathematical view on life so I guess this is kind of automatic for me...

You can indeed prove the Earth to be round fairly easily with simple math and science.
But what if you were always told the Earth was flat and it was taught in our schools along with some crazy variation of how atomic level physics work? Sure, you could go out and disprove it with geometry and personally acquire powerful equipment to discover the truth about atomic physics, But how many people, out of the vast population that goes through the school system, do you think will do this?
The shape of the Earth is illrelavent to the point I'm trying to make, it's just an example.
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Desu

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« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2006, 12:46:55 AM »
Quote from: "No_OnE"
Hmm...  I just thought up another question:

How do you explain me flying from california to Japan...  I obviously don't go across the U.S and over the Atlantic ocean...  I would go over the Pacific, but wouldn't that be impossible on the FE model?

Heh I've flown from Lexington, Kentucky to Japan before (not in one go of course, changed planes in Chicago)
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Mephistopheles

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« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2006, 12:47:14 AM »
Quote
How do you explain me flying from california to Japan... I obviously don't go across the U.S and over the Atlantic ocean... I would go over the Pacific, but wouldn't that be impossible on the FE model?


Not at all.

I believe you're thinking that the Earth resembles an atlas when flattened.  Au contrar, it somewhat resembles the little icon atop all of these pages.  You can simply proceed across the Pacific ocean to Japan with no directional or distance differences.
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No_OnE

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« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2006, 12:48:03 AM »
Quote from: "Desu"
Quote from: "No_OnE"

Geometry and Earth Sciences teach us this...  I mean, I have more of a mathematical view on life so I guess this is kind of automatic for me...

You can indeed prove the Earth to be round fairly easily with simple math and science.
But what if you were always told the Earth was flat and it was taught in our schools along with some crazy variation of how atomic level physics work? Sure, you could go out and disprove it with geometry and personally acquire powerful equipment to discover the truth about atomic physics, But how many people, out of the vast population that goes through the school system, do you think will do this?
The shape of the Earth is illrelavent to the point I'm trying to make, it's just an example.

Well, it was done once...   Back when the entire world believed the Earth to be flat, the idea of it being round eventually spread and is now the accepted theory everywhere...

Also, on my last post, forget it.  I was basing that logic on the FE model I had in my head.  I saw the one you guys came up with so my question just became...  eh... stupid...
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James

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A Few Questions...
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2006, 07:12:49 AM »
Quote from: "Desu"
Would it be completely illogical to conclude that the Earth is Flat from personal observation? I look out my window and I see more or less a flat landscape. If I was a betting Desu, and I'm not, I'd say the Earth appears to be flat from a logical point of view based solely on personal observation. Now from a scientific and mathematical point of view, that's a different story, but how many times do you really bring complicated science and math into your daily observations?


I'm amazed to see you actually defending Flat Earth Theory to some extent. Thanks and congratulations on being so open-minded!
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Desu

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« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2006, 11:54:00 AM »
Quote from: "No_OnE"

Well, it was done once...   Back when the entire world believed the Earth to be flat, the idea of it being round eventually spread and is now the accepted theory everywhere...

Also, on my last post, forget it.  I was basing that logic on the FE model I had in my head.  I saw the one you guys came up with so my question just became...  eh... stupid...

Yes, it was inevitable that someone would break the mold and go agaisnt common belief and discover the truth about Earth, but what if that didn't happen? It's undeniable it would happen sometime, but what if it didn't at that time? What if we, still today, were ruled by the church? What if technology was still shunned as evil? What if it was still taught that the Earth is flat? People would accept it and not question it, until someone breaks the mold.
I guess this could be loosley related to the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. (what if someone did/didn't do that etc)
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Mephistopheles

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« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2006, 02:05:32 PM »
Quote from: "Desu"
Quote from: "No_OnE"

Well, it was done once...   Back when the entire world believed the Earth to be flat, the idea of it being round eventually spread and is now the accepted theory everywhere...

Also, on my last post, forget it.  I was basing that logic on the FE model I had in my head.  I saw the one you guys came up with so my question just became...  eh... stupid...

Yes, it was inevitable that someone would break the mold and go agaisnt common belief and discover the truth about Earth, but what if that didn't happen? It's undeniable it would happen sometime, but what if it didn't at that time? What if we, still today, were ruled by the church? What if technology was still shunned as evil? What if it was still taught that the Earth is flat? People would accept it and not question it, until someone breaks the mold.
I guess this could be loosley related to the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. (what if someone did/didn't do that etc)


The answer is simply that we would not know the difference.
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RenaissanceMan

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« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2006, 03:04:29 PM »
Quote from: "Mephistopheles"
Quote from: "Desu"
Quote from: "No_OnE"

Well, it was done once...   Back when the entire world believed the Earth to be flat, the idea of it being round eventually spread and is now the accepted theory everywhere...

Also, on my last post, forget it.  I was basing that logic on the FE model I had in my head.  I saw the one you guys came up with so my question just became...  eh... stupid...

Yes, it was inevitable that someone would break the mold and go agaisnt common belief and discover the truth about Earth, but what if that didn't happen? It's undeniable it would happen sometime, but what if it didn't at that time? What if we, still today, were ruled by the church? What if technology was still shunned as evil? What if it was still taught that the Earth is flat? People would accept it and not question it, until someone breaks the mold.
I guess this could be loosley related to the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. (what if someone did/didn't do that etc)


The answer is simply that we would not know the difference.


The bigger issue would be that we'd still be in the Dark Ages. Gee, I wouldn't even have been able to get old enough to be burned at the stake as a heretic... I would have died at age 12 when a 'doctor' bled me to death to exorcise the 'demon' from my appendix.
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Desu

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« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2006, 03:10:09 PM »
Quote from: "RenaissanceMan"

The bigger issue would be that we'd still be in the Dark Ages. Gee, I wouldn't even have been able to get old enough to be burned at the stake as a heretic... I would have died at age 12 when a 'doctor' bled me to death to exorcise the 'demon' from my appendix.

Aren't you glad we dropped that magic and witchcraft stuff when we did? Now how about this one: what if we had dropped it sooner than we had? What if man never assumed nature was the work of gods, and tried to reveal how it works from the beginning? Where do you think we would be today?
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cadmium_blimp

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« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2006, 03:12:08 PM »
Quote from: "Desu"
Quote from: "RenaissanceMan"

The bigger issue would be that we'd still be in the Dark Ages. Gee, I wouldn't even have been able to get old enough to be burned at the stake as a heretic... I would have died at age 12 when a 'doctor' bled me to death to exorcise the 'demon' from my appendix.

Aren't you glad we dropped that magic and witchcraft stuff when we did? Now how about this one: what if we had dropped it sooner than we had? What if man never assumed nature was the work of gods, and tried to reveal how it works from the beginning? Where do you think we would be today?

We would have deflector shields and warp drives, yipee!
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RenaissanceMan

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« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2006, 03:19:16 PM »
Quote from: "Desu"
Quote from: "RenaissanceMan"

The bigger issue would be that we'd still be in the Dark Ages. Gee, I wouldn't even have been able to get old enough to be burned at the stake as a heretic... I would have died at age 12 when a 'doctor' bled me to death to exorcise the 'demon' from my appendix.

Aren't you glad we dropped that magic and witchcraft stuff when we did? Now how about this one: what if we had dropped it sooner than we had? What if man never assumed nature was the work of gods, and tried to reveal how it works from the beginning? Where do you think we would be today?


Probably having the same conversation. "No! I WON'T get in your car and drive to the moon so you can show me the earth isn't flat! You must be part of the CONSPIRACY!"

The fact is, genetically, people living 50,000 years ago were no less intelligent than we are. We have only our society and it's learning and knowledge seperating us from out hunter-gatherer ancestors.
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Desu

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« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2006, 03:32:15 PM »
Quote from: "RenaissanceMan"


Probably having the same conversation. "No! I WON'T get in your car and drive to the moon so you can show me the earth isn't flat! You must be part of the CONSPIRACY!"

The fact is, genetically, people living 50,000 years ago were no less intelligent than we are. We have only our society and it's learning and knowledge seperating us from out hunter-gatherer ancestors.

We can also send information and ideas over oceans in fractions of a second in today's age.
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RenaissanceMan

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« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2006, 03:37:09 PM »
Quote from: "Desu"
Quote from: "RenaissanceMan"


Probably having the same conversation. "No! I WON'T get in your car and drive to the moon so you can show me the earth isn't flat! You must be part of the CONSPIRACY!"

The fact is, genetically, people living 50,000 years ago were no less intelligent than we are. We have only our society and it's learning and knowledge seperating us from out hunter-gatherer ancestors.

We can also send information and ideas over oceans in fractions of a second in today's age.


And we can measure time down to the gnat's ass with a 30 dollar timex. Just IMAGINE if they had those when exploring the oceans of the world.

But we're still no more intelligent than those hunter gatherers 50,000 years ago, just more educated and aware.
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cadmium_blimp

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« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2006, 03:39:54 PM »
Quote from: "RenaissanceMan"
Quote from: "Desu"
Quote from: "RenaissanceMan"


Probably having the same conversation. "No! I WON'T get in your car and drive to the moon so you can show me the earth isn't flat! You must be part of the CONSPIRACY!"

The fact is, genetically, people living 50,000 years ago were no less intelligent than we are. We have only our society and it's learning and knowledge seperating us from out hunter-gatherer ancestors.

We can also send information and ideas over oceans in fractions of a second in today's age.


And we can measure time down to the gnat's ass with a 30 dollar timex. Just IMAGINE if they had those when exploring the oceans of the world.

But we're still no more intelligent than those hunter gatherers 50,000 years ago, just more educated and aware.

Who's disputing this?  Or are you just saying it so say it?
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Desu

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« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2006, 03:41:48 PM »
Quote from: "cadmium_blimp"

Who's disputing this?  Or are you just saying it so say it?

I think he's just saying that people 50,000 years ago were just as capable of making new discoveries about the universe as we are.
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cadmium_blimp

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« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2006, 03:44:07 PM »
Quote from: "Desu"
Quote from: "cadmium_blimp"

Who's disputing this?  Or are you just saying it so say it?

I think he's just saying that people 50,000 years ago were just as capable of making new discoveries about the universe as we are.

Of course, 50,000 years ago they hadn't made enough big discoveries to make *big* discoveries.  Baby steps, guys, baby steps.
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troubadour

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« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2006, 03:57:46 PM »
I think a better way of describing this would be that each new discovery about the universe is better at describing it then the last, or improves upon it.
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cadmium_blimp

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« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2006, 04:00:07 PM »
Like an inverted pyramid the little discoveries are first, but followed by progressively bigger discoveries.
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troubadour

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« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2006, 04:02:22 PM »
Quote from: "cadmium_blimp"
Like an inverted pyramid the little discoveries are first, but followed by progressively bigger discoveries.


As far as the large scale universe, we have a theory(es) to describe it with incredible accuracy. right now it's the world of the very small, or the quantum realm, that we are trying to understand. And then we have to link both the very large and very small together. Possible theories for this are String Theory and M Theory.
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