General Physics

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munkirench

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General Physics
« on: April 20, 2009, 04:24:15 PM »
This is my first post.  Let me say a few things in introduction:

1.  I accept the "conventional" theories regarding cosmology and gravity.
2.  I've read the whole FAQ, so I'm familiar with at least the foundation of what FEers believe.
3.  I'm a physics major.

My questions are:
1.  Do you accept the validity and applicability of general mathematics, including "higher" branches such as calculus?
2.  Do you accept the conventional theories of electricity/magnetism?  (NOT simple circuitry, but field theory)
3.  If yes to both #1 and #2, why are the mathematical proofs and experiments which verify E/M field theory more accurate/plausible than the theories and experiments which verify the existence of attractive force between masses?
4.  If no to either #1 or #2, why do you believe the theories are not valid?
5.  Do you believe in the general laws of motion, as governed by Newton's equation: F = ma?
6.  If you accept the general laws of physics, which have been verified many times, why would these laws preclude the possibility of a spherical Earth?
7.  Why do you observe the very top of a ship first as it comes over the horizon, instead of seeing the whole ship slowly become visible?
8.  When standing on a beach, why can you not use a powerful telescope to see the opposite shoreline?
9.  When computing the trajectories of long-distance projectiles, such as those used during WWII, why is it necessary to include the Coriolis effect (necessitated by the rotation of the earth), and the effects of spherical geography, in order to ensure maximum accuracy?
10.  How do you explain the everyday evidence of the Coriolis effect, which is based on the idea that the north hemisphere and south hemisphere (which are only differentiated by the distance from the center according to FE theory) are on opposites sides of the equator? (evidence such as the different direction of swirl in large storms, and the fact that different swirl directions are observable if you (very) slowly drain a large tub of water on different sides of the equator)
11.  Why do you think that the existence of a "shadow object", or an "anti-moon" is more plausible than the simple idea that the Earth is in fact not special, is exactly like the rest of the planets, is simply a collection of matter, experiences seasons because of the tilt of the axis, all of which are explained by the same simple theory?
12.  How do you explain satellite imagery, stipulating that the satellites continue taking photos without a permanent energy source to maintain altitude?
13.  How do you explain the calculated energy levels of the Sun, which predict that if the sun were in fact only 3000 miles away, the Earth would be destroyed by radiation?  (such calculations and measurements are easy to perform and verify using blackbody measurements and comparisons to everyday objects)
14.  If you accept #1 and #5, how do you explain the fact that the mathematics which successfully predicts the observable movements of the planets (first calculated hundreds of years ago, before a "Conspiracy" could have emerged) also predicts a heliocentric system?
15.  Would the following experiments, if successful, prove the RE theory, or at least disprove the FE theory?
    a.  Flying without a GPS or compass in a straight line directly towards Antarctica, and ending up on the other side of the continent?
    b.  Launching into space, or just straight upwards, and seeing the earth as depicted in images provided by NASA?
16.  Why do you believe that the North Pole is the center of the Earth, and not the South Pole?  What observations distinguish the two?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 04:29:21 PM by munkirench »
When I look out my window, I see exactly what RET predicts.

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markjo

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2009, 04:58:30 PM »
A few tips.

First, don't ask so many questions at once.  Try to keep one main topic per thread.

Second, read the FAQ.  Many of those questions are covered there.

Third, lurk.  Read through some of the older threads.  Most, if not all, of your questions have been discussed before.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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munkirench

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2009, 05:05:34 PM »
Which questions are answered in the FAQ?  The FAQ explains what you believe, but offers no explanation for much of it. 

If you don't want to answer all of the questions, how about the first 6?  I meant them to be a flow of logic for the purpose of explaining why you consider gravity to be less of a valid science than E/M, which is clearly valid because of the ways that we take advantage of the physics behind it to produce electricity-based technologies.
When I look out my window, I see exactly what RET predicts.

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zork

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2009, 11:02:40 PM »
Which questions are answered in the FAQ?  The FAQ explains what you believe, but offers no explanation for much of it. 
All the FE "science" stands on what they believe. Getting scientific explanation about FE something is quite hard. But speculations, anytime.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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munkirench

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2009, 10:48:22 AM »
OK, so I repeat my first 6 questions.  They're not difficult.

Do you believe in the validity of advanced mathematics?  Do you believe in the validity of any classical physics, including E/M?  If you believe in these, why do you reject the idea of gravity and the spherical Earth that they predict?
When I look out my window, I see exactly what RET predicts.

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Parsifal

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2009, 10:38:44 PM »
Do you believe in the validity of advanced mathematics?  Do you believe in the validity of any classical physics, including E/M?  If you believe in these, why do you reject the idea of gravity and the spherical Earth that they predict?

Most of us do believe that advanced mathematics, as well as that classical physics which has not been succeeded by more modern theories, is valid to a significant degree. I'd be delighted if you could explain to me how physics predicts a spherical Earth, however.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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markjo

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2009, 06:37:58 AM »
Do you believe in the validity of advanced mathematics?  Do you believe in the validity of any classical physics, including E/M?  If you believe in these, why do you reject the idea of gravity and the spherical Earth that they predict?

Most of us do believe that advanced mathematics, as well as that classical physics which has not been succeeded by more modern theories, is valid to a significant degree. I'd be delighted if you could explain to me how physics predicts a spherical Earth, however.

Because that would be the lowest energy state for such a massive object to take because of its own gravitational field?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2009, 12:38:11 PM »
Because that would be the lowest energy state for such a massive object to take because of its own gravitational field?

Your error is assuming that the earth is a finite object or has a gravitational field at all.

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markjo

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2009, 12:54:29 PM »
Because that would be the lowest energy state for such a massive object to take because of its own gravitational field?

Your error is assuming that the earth is a finite object or has a gravitational field at all.

I see no reason to believe otherwise.  What evidence do you have that the earth is not finite or lacks a gravitational field?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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munkirench

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2009, 02:13:33 PM »
Because that would be the lowest energy state for such a massive object to take because of its own gravitational field?

Your error is assuming that the earth is a finite object or has a gravitational field at all.

I see no reason to believe otherwise.  What evidence do you have that the earth is not finite or lacks a gravitational field?
Exactly... there is no reason to believe that the Earth is special apart from other observed celestial bodies.  I find it very difficult to believe that the Earth is special... there is simply no evidence that the Earth has any properties which differentiate it from other celestial bodies.  But we already know that FEers will reject all evidence which indicates the accepted properties of celestial bodies, no matter the source, on the grounds that ALL sources are unreliable... or something equally inane.

So back to my original question... why are classical theories valid only to a significant degree?  And why are modern theories invalid?  All modern theories are based on predictions made by advanced mathematics which have been verified by experiments.  In case you aren't aware, there are NO "standard" theories which have not produced verified predictions.  Supermodern theories, such as string theory, are NOT accepted because they have failed to predict observable phenomena.
When I look out my window, I see exactly what RET predicts.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2009, 02:20:16 PM »
I see no reason to believe otherwise.  What evidence do you have that the earth is not finite or lacks a gravitational field?

1. No one has found a finititude to the earth. The earth stretches forever in every direction wherever you look and wherever you go.

2. No one has discovered the earth to have a "gravitational field" as described in RET. The instruments which measure the level of g are measuring acceleration not "gravity particles" or whatever. Nothing about "gravity particles" has ever been observed.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 02:28:43 PM by Tom Bishop »

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DD2014

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2009, 02:30:32 PM »
Quote
In case you aren't aware, there are NO "standard" theories which have not produced verified predictions.  Supermodern theories, such as string theory, are NOT accepted because they have failed to predict observable phenomena.

Just like FET ;D

They come up with some explanation that can't be proven, or claim a conspiracy in which evidence is thrown out. One way or another their claims cannot be proven.


Quote from: Tom Bishop
1. No one has found a finititude to the earth. The earth stretches forever in every direction wherever you look.

Last time I checked Tom, (even from a airplain) I was not able to see China, Europe, the ocean or hell even the next state (and thats with near perfect visiblity).
I am from NASA, and I am here to disinform you...

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DD2014

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2009, 02:33:10 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop
The earth stretches forever in every direction wherever you look and wherever you go.

By the way, I was under the impression that in FE the earth does end and it does not stretch forever in every direction. You should read the FAQ before posting Tom ::)
I am from NASA, and I am here to disinform you...

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Tom Bishop

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2009, 02:33:23 PM »
Quote
Exactly... there is no reason to believe that the Earth is special apart from other observed celestial bodies.  I find it very difficult to believe that the Earth is special...

The earth is special for a number of reasons. It is the only known material world and the only environment known to harbor life.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 02:40:55 PM by Tom Bishop »

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munkirench

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2009, 03:05:04 PM »
It is the only known material world and the only environment known to harbor life.
Whether or not there is other life in the universe is irrelevant, even to FE... that is to say, the presence of life elsewhere in the universe is not a part of RE theory, and so should not be used to contrast FE with RE.

On the other hand, the Earth is NOT the only known material.  We have used spectroscopic analysis on many celestial objects in order to ascertain their material makeup.  I posit that these analyses are valid because the same analysis can be used on any object on the Earth and produce the expected results.  Example:  if you analyze a rock, the predicted chemical makeup matches the observed makeup when physical tests are performed.  Similarly, analysis of manufactured compounds matches with the predicted spectrum based on the known method of manufacture.  Of course I don't need to go into the massive amount of research put into determining the basic elements of the Earth, which have been verified by many many researchers in all parts of the world, with or without funding, and independent of expected results and intangibles.

But again, back to my original question, which Tom so adeptly didn't answer...

Why are classical theories valid only to a significant degree?  And why are modern theories invalid?  It all goes back to whether or not you accept advanced mathematics, which are all based on the simple axiom that 2 + 2 = 4.
When I look out my window, I see exactly what RET predicts.

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markjo

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2009, 03:42:25 PM »
1. No one has found a finititude to the earth. The earth stretches forever in every direction wherever you look and wherever you go.

Forever?  I'm sorry, but how can you be certain that the earth stretches forever?  As far as the eye can see is a far cry from forever.

Quote
2. No one has discovered the earth to have a "gravitational field" as described in RET. The instruments which measure the level of g are measuring acceleration not "gravity particles" or whatever. Nothing about "gravity particles" has ever been observed.

The Cavendish experiment demonstrates that masses do attract each other.  Although the mechanism is currently not completely understood, the effects are demonstrable.

Quote
Exactly... there is no reason to believe that the Earth is special apart from other observed celestial bodies.  I find it very difficult to believe that the Earth is special...

The earth is special for a number of reasons. It is the only known material world and the only environment known to harbor life.

What does harboring life have to do with the shape of the earth?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Anteater7171

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2009, 03:51:51 PM »
1. No one has found a finititude to the earth. The earth stretches forever in every direction wherever you look and wherever you go.
Forever?  I'm sorry, but how can you be certain that the earth stretches forever?  As far as the eye can see is a far cry from forever.
I believe the earth is finite and ends at the icewall.

Quote
2. No one has discovered the earth to have a "gravitational field" as described in RET. The instruments which measure the level of g are measuring acceleration not "gravity particles" or whatever. Nothing about "gravity particles" has ever been observed.
The Cavendish experiment demonstrates that masses do attract each other.  Although the mechanism is currently not completely understood, the effects are demonstrable.
That experiment was to determine the density of the earth.

Quote
Exactly... there is no reason to believe that the Earth is special apart from other observed celestial bodies.  I find it very difficult to believe that the Earth is special...
The earth is special for a number of reasons. It is the only known material world and the only environment known to harbor life.
What does harboring life have to do with the shape of the earth?
Nothing really.
I don't remember anything. Well, I do, but it's really vague. Like I was on drugs the whole time.

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munkirench

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2009, 04:05:16 PM »
That experiment was to determine the density of the earth.
The purpose is irrelevant... it showed that two masses do in fact attract each other, and the gravitational constant was measured, albeit with little precision.

If you accept that two masses do indeed attract each other, and you accept that the earth is indeed made of matter which has mass, then the earth exhibits an attractive force on every other mass.  It's a yes or no question... is the earth made of matter or not?  Was the Cavendish experiment totally invalid?  His measurement is surprisingly close to the current accepted value.

But again, I'll repeat my first question:
If you accept advanced mathematics, why are classical theories valid only to a significant degree?  And why are modern theories invalid?
When I look out my window, I see exactly what RET predicts.

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Anteater7171

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2009, 04:17:48 PM »
That experiment was to determine the density of the earth.
The purpose is irrelevant... it showed that two masses do in fact attract each other, and the gravitational constant was measured, albeit with little precision.

If you accept that two masses do indeed attract each other, and you accept that the earth is indeed made of matter which has mass, then the earth exhibits an attractive force on every other mass.  It's a yes or no question... is the earth made of matter or not?  Was the Cavendish experiment totally invalid?  His measurement is surprisingly close to the current accepted value.

But again, I'll repeat my first question:
If you accept advanced mathematics, why are classical theories valid only to a significant degree?  And why are modern theories invalid?
I never accepted the idea that two masses spontaneously attract each other for no reason.
I don't remember anything. Well, I do, but it's really vague. Like I was on drugs the whole time.

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munkirench

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2009, 04:28:11 PM »
So you reject experimental observation?
When I look out my window, I see exactly what RET predicts.

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Anteater7171

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2009, 04:30:58 PM »
Show me this experiment.
I don't remember anything. Well, I do, but it's really vague. Like I was on drugs the whole time.

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munkirench

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2009, 05:47:31 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavendish_experiment

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Cavendish's experiment was repeated by Reich (1838), Baily (1843), Cornu & Baille (1878), and many others. Its accuracy was not exceeded for 97 years, until C. V. Boys' 1895 experiment. In time, Michell's torsion balance became the dominant technique for measuring the gravitational constant (G), and most contemporary measurements still use variations of it. This is why Cavendish's experiment became the Cavendish experiment.

Citations included in article.
When I look out my window, I see exactly what RET predicts.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2009, 06:12:40 PM »
The Cavendish Experiment is fundementally flawed and has been demonstrated to be invalid.

http://milesmathis.com/caven.html
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 06:19:48 PM by Tom Bishop »

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markjo

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2009, 06:33:35 PM »
I never accepted the idea that two masses spontaneously attract each other for no reason.

It's not that masses attract for no reason.  It's just that we aren't exactly sure of the reason, but we do have some fairly well thought out (if not entirely proven) ideas (gravitons, warping of space-time, etc.)
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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munkirench

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2009, 06:47:22 PM »
I don't have enough time to read that whole paper and respond right now, but wikipedia lists this abstract as an example of measurements based on different principles:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/315/5808/74

Since I'm at a university, I'll log in sometime in the near future and read up.
When I look out my window, I see exactly what RET predicts.

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Euclid

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2009, 07:02:16 PM »
The Cavendish Experiment is fundementally flawed and has been demonstrated to be invalid.

http://milesmathis.com/caven.html

I'd say that article does nothing to refute the Cavendish experiment or other experiments that have measured G with different methods.

I'm not sure why you are so opposed to it anyway.  FE requires gravitation between masses.  The gravitational pull of the heavens is used to explain changes in g.  What is the nature of this attraction as well as the attraction that keeps heavenly bodies in orbit?
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Yes, thanks to the tireless efforts of Euclid and a few other mathematically-inclined members, electromagnetic acceleration is fast moving into the forefront of FE research.
8)

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Tom Bishop

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2009, 07:36:42 PM »
Quote
I'd say that article does nothing to refute the Cavendish experiment or other experiments that have measured G with different methods.

Actually the paper I linked demolishes the validity of the Cavendish Experiment pretty badly. It demonstrates that the experiment is entirely invalid.

Besides, you have to be pretty clueless to think that it's possible to detect the gravitational field of an apple without the more powerful electro-static and other macro forces at that level affecting the incredibly sensitive experiment.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 09:32:26 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2009, 07:43:11 PM »
It's not that masses attract for no reason.  It's just that we aren't exactly sure of the reason, but we do have some fairly well thought out (if not entirely proven) ideas (gravitons, warping of space-time, etc.)

"Not entirely proven," hardly. More like absolutely speculatory and unproven.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 07:50:12 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Euclid

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2009, 08:14:45 PM »
Quote
I'd say that article does nothing to refute the Cavendish experiment or other experiments that have measured G with different methods.

Actually the paper I linked demolishes the validity of the Cavendish Experiment pretty badly. It demonstrates that the experiment is entirely invalid.

Besides, you have to be pretty clueless to think that it's possible to detect the gravitational field of an apple without the electro-static and other macro forces affecting the incredibly sensitive experiment.

Thanks for calling me clueless Tom.  I really appreciate that.   :'(

I won't argue the specifics with you, but there are ways to eliminate and account for those forces, which the author of the paper does not mention or reflects very inaccurately.

You didn't answer my questions.  Do you accept gravitation by mass?
Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist
Yes, thanks to the tireless efforts of Euclid and a few other mathematically-inclined members, electromagnetic acceleration is fast moving into the forefront of FE research.
8)

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munkirench

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Re: General Physics
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2009, 10:20:12 PM »
Strong and Weak forces decrease exponentially, not by inverse square.  Strong and Weak forces could not conceivably have affected this experiment.  The electro-static forces can be neutralized simply by touching the metal balls together prior to performing the experiment, and a closed box rules out buildup of unequal static charge by convection.

I read through half of that paper and just couldn't continue.  It's absolute crap.  Part of it was based on criticizing the abortion of an apparatus labeled as "Walker's" (any self-respecting engineer would destroy that with a hammer... it's obvious the author chose a middle school science experiment and decided that it was invalid), it made several blatantly incorrect statements regarding viscosity of fluids, the author obviously doesn't understand any electrostatics, and he apparently is incapable of comprehending the inverse square law which makes it clear that nonhomogeneous surroundings produce negligible fields when all of the "ambient" mass is of lesser density and is farther than about twice the effective distance of the experiment.  Furthermore, he totally discounts the fact that numerous researchers have produced results, independently, which match within 1%... all over the world... using different techniques... with nonidentical apparatus.  His claim would be admissible ONLY if every apparatus was effectively identical, because the radically disruptive ambient mass, as he claims, would be totally different each time.  It would even be different if the starting angle of the balls were changed within the same apparatus.

None of the problems he listed are REAL problems, they are imaginary problems that a non-engineer would think of because they just don't understand the nature of the experiment itself.  While any engineer could explain why the problems he listed are either irrelevant or just don't exist, he deludes himself into thinking that he's found something significant.

The one detail which gives very great credence to the existence of gravity is the consistency by which the gravitational constant has been found to be.  If gravity didn't exist at all, and all of the disruptive forces he lists did exist, every measurement would be wildly inaccurate.  Again, remember that each experiment was performed with a different apparatus, and experiments have even been performed (recently) which use a totally different technique. 

Consistency in prediction and observation indicates that a theory is effective.  Key word: prediction.
When I look out my window, I see exactly what RET predicts.