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« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2006, 02:17:49 PM »
binxsy... what is your question you would like to ask? post it quick and i will try to answer it as best i can, obviously i cant speak for the FE community as i am merely a philosopher.. but continue, ask your question, i just answered every one another guy fired at me.. so carry on :?:
y intellect matches that of einstein, my philosophical mind outcrafts socrates, and yet, pringles is such a satisfying name

mm
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2006, 02:59:02 PM »
must bring forth the fact that radio waves can't be sent from USA to China directly, without bouncing them off satellites or the ionosphere. This is due to the fact that the radio waves go off on a tangent line to the surface and out into space and do not circle the Earth. This wouldn't be so on a flat Earth. On a flat Earth, you could send a signal straight to China (assuming you had sufficient ground clearence).

 well this was never answeared

Also plate tectonics do not make sense if the earth is a disc, The plates push and retract fold over and underneath eachother, and slide past each other. Now on a sphere like the earth theses plates have pressure on each side since they are surrounded by other plates. Now if earth was a disc what would keep the earth from falling apart? Also you said the sun is about 3000 miles above the surface? how far is the moon from the surface then? i would think the moon is farther away from earth then 300miles?

Also you stated we are faling at a constant rate that gives us gravity right? well why do our constalations stay put? In order for us to orbit we could use the same idea that the space shutttle uses while orbiting the earth. that it is high enough up that it is falling at a constant rate but it is at the right trajectory for it to keep faling indenfintely. But what would this flat earth be orbiting that would be large enough for this to happen? And also were is this thing were orbiting? the sun cant be it? invisible planet?
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But they dont have mond control
« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2006, 03:04:17 PM »
Quote from: "pringles"
what is there to justify? i am simply stating the govornment has complete control over what we learn, and through this, we cannot know the "truth"


you can prove the earth is a sphere using geometry (speherical geometry) and you can prove it all by writing it out on paper (since the goverment could have fixed all calculators right?)

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100% correct. Using basic trig you would easily see the sun is 3000 miles above the surface of the flat earth.


Could you please show me this math?


If the earth was flat you would be able to, since you have 2 angles and 1 side. but with the real earth (or atleast the one I live on), you have 2 angles and no side.

Tell me this also, why doesnt radar work as far as the "Big Ice Wall"? From what I can tell, radar would eventually recieve its own beacon signal since it would bounce off of this dense ice wall. If you want to believe in something so stupid then by all means, go for it. Hell, the Bible even says the earth is a sphere. So go ahead and call governments liars, and scientists liars, but dont call god a liar.





radar can be made by a civilian with enough know how. Also the goverment can not change math. No matter how hard hey try pi will always start with 3.14 no matter how hard they try they can not change it
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Re: But they dont have mond control
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2006, 03:47:27 PM »
Quote from: "Binxsy"

radar can be made by a civilian with enough know how.

and...


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2006, 03:59:21 PM »
There are a couple reasons why radio waves are bounced off the ionosphere.
1. Terrain. I am just using the US as an example here. But, unless you live on the top of the Rocky Mountains there is probably some terrain that is much higher than you between you and China. If you take that out to the rest of the world you might want to start somewhere in the Hymalia's (sp?) to get above the rest of the terrain in the world. So radio waves are bounced off the ionosphere in order to get over terrain.

2. Radio waves are in constant use around the world. Each time you use a cell phone, cordless phone, rc car, microwave, turn on an electric appliance, everytime a radio station is turned on, TV station turned on etc.... (the list is endless) it adds a little bit more to the radio clutter engulfing our earth. And the closer you get to centers of population, both in proximity and altitude (think dome around centers of population), the worse that radio clutter gets. To hear the radio clutter for yourself, turn your FM stereo to a frequency that does not have a local station on it and you will here a static hiss. This has a generic term of 'white noise' or static. The best way to get a radio signal away from this is to point it up slightly and shoot over the top of it and bounce it off the ionosphere.
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« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2006, 04:20:08 PM »
Quote from: "lomfs24"
There are a couple reasons why radio waves are bounced off the ionosphere.
1. Terrain. I am just using the US as an example here. But, unless you live on the top of the Rocky Mountains there is probably some terrain that is much higher than you between you and China. If you take that out to the rest of the world you might want to start somewhere in the Hymalia's (sp?) to get above the rest of the terrain in the world. So radio waves are bounced off the ionosphere in order to get over terrain.

2. Radio waves are in constant use around the world. Each time you use a cell phone, cordless phone, rc car, microwave, turn on an electric appliance, everytime a radio station is turned on, TV station turned on etc.... (the list is endless) it adds a little bit more to the radio clutter engulfing our earth. And the closer you get to centers of population, both in proximity and altitude (think dome around centers of population), the worse that radio clutter gets. To hear the radio clutter for yourself, turn your FM stereo to a frequency that does not have a local station on it and you will here a static hiss. This has a generic term of 'white noise' or static. The best way to get a radio signal away from this is to point it up slightly and shoot over the top of it and bounce it off the ionosphere.


What ionosphere?  The ones the RE scientists tells you exist?  Surely you can't believe them if they advocate a RE.  So, there is no ionosphere.

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« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2006, 04:32:36 PM »
Are you shure your own "scientists" arent goverment agents put there to create confusion and provide baseless proofs to keep you guys at bay? So us the speherical earthers see you as ignorant and rather foolish?


Wait this doesnt make sense either?
Hey whats the percentage of you fe'ers that are paranoid scitzos?
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« Reply #67 on: June 21, 2006, 08:48:43 PM »
Roses are red
Violets are blue
I am schizophrenic
And so am I.
7.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot

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« Reply #68 on: June 21, 2006, 09:28:38 PM »
i thought goverment agents kill scientists? if i were one i wulldnt work for the goverment

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« Reply #69 on: June 21, 2006, 09:34:45 PM »
WHAT?
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« Reply #70 on: June 21, 2006, 09:36:36 PM »
its tru

i saw it in movies al teh time

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« Reply #71 on: June 21, 2006, 09:47:03 PM »
yes movies are actualy real life just someone secretly vdeo taped all of it. shhhhhhhhh
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« Reply #72 on: June 21, 2006, 09:49:02 PM »
Quote from: "lomfs24"
The best way to get a radio signal away from this is to point it up slightly and shoot over the top of it and bounce it off the ionosphere.

Anything with a frequency higher than AM can't be bounced off the ionosphere, as they are too energetic.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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« Reply #73 on: June 21, 2006, 09:50:21 PM »
Quote from: "Binxsy"
yes movies are actualy real life just someone secretly vdeo taped all of it. shhhhhhhhh


noooo

wat you think im dum????

they arent real its just stuf acted out that rely happined

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« Reply #74 on: June 21, 2006, 10:05:11 PM »
yes i agree..........you people make me want to go get drunk/high to forget your well i dont konw what to call it.
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It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument - William G. McAdoo (1863 - 1941)

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« Reply #75 on: June 22, 2006, 01:37:25 AM »
Quote from: "pringles"
what is there to justify?


There's this:

Quote
i am simply stating the govornment has complete control over what we learn,
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?

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« Reply #76 on: June 22, 2006, 08:09:07 AM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
Quote from: "lomfs24"
The best way to get a radio signal away from this is to point it up slightly and shoot over the top of it and bounce it off the ionosphere.

Anything with a frequency higher than AM can't be bounced off the ionosphere, as they are too energetic.


TheEngineer, obviously radio theory is not your strong suit. I respect a lot of what you are saying but you should leave radio theory alone.

You do realize that AM and FM refer to types of modulation rather than actual frequency location. I could run AM clear up into the Gigahertz's range. Wouldn't work very well but I could. On the flip side I can run FM as low as I want. Again, it doesn't work as well as AM in those ranges but it still works. We are not even going to get into upper and lower sideband.
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« Reply #77 on: June 22, 2006, 08:48:49 AM »
I believe frequencies above 10 MHz can't be bounced of the ionosphere.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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« Reply #78 on: June 22, 2006, 10:10:54 AM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
I believe frequencies above 10 MHz can't be bounced of the ionosphere.
I believe you are wrong. All frequencies bounce off the ionosphere. However, different wave lengths bounce at different angles. Just like light moves through transparent materials at different angles, that's why we have rainbows. Therefore, higher frequencies don't bounce at an angle that gets back to the ground....under most circumstances. Occasionally you will hear a skip. Frequencies below 100 MHz are frequently bounced. Side band seems to skip better than AM or FM.... don't know why that is.

Perhaps because of the conspiracy.  :D
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« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2006, 10:15:23 AM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
I believe frequencies above 10 MHz can't be bounced of the ionosphere.



So your admiting the existance of the ionosphere right?  

I rember awhile ago someone said it did not exist.

contradiction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :D  :)  :(  :o  :shock:  :?  8-)  :lol:  :x  :P  :oops:  :cry:  :evil:  :twisted:  :roll:  :wink:  :!:  :?:  :idea:  :arrow:
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« Reply #80 on: June 22, 2006, 11:23:22 AM »
Quote from: "Binxsy"
So your admiting the existance of the ionosphere right?  

I rember awhile ago someone said it did not exist.

contradiction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :D  :)  :(  :o  :shock:  :?  8-)  :lol:  :x  :P  :oops:  :cry:  :evil:  :twisted:  :roll:  :wink:  :!:  :?:  :idea:  :arrow:

I never said it didn't exist.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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« Reply #81 on: June 22, 2006, 12:08:51 PM »
Quote from: "lomfs24"
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
I believe frequencies above 10 MHz can't be bounced of the ionosphere.
I believe you are wrong. All frequencies bounce off the ionosphere. However, different wave lengths bounce at different angles. Just like light moves through transparent materials at different angles, that's why we have rainbows. Therefore, higher frequencies don't bounce at an angle that gets back to the ground....under most circumstances. Occasionally you will hear a skip. Frequencies below 100 MHz are frequently bounced. Side band seems to skip better than AM or FM.... don't know why that is.

Sorry I did not make myself clear.  I thought it was understood we were talking about bouncing a signal back to the ground so it could be recieved.  

Now, this is from Wiki:
Quote
Skywave is the propagation of radio waves bent (refracted) back to the Earth's surface by the ionosphere. As a result of skywave propagation, a nighttime broadcast signal from a distant AM radio station (or rarely, a TV station) can sometimes be heard as clearly as local stations. Most long-distance HF radio communication (between 3 and 30 MHz) is a result of skywave propagation.

Signals with frequencies above about 30 MHz (VHF and UHF for example) are progressively not returned to the Earth's surface, because they penetrate the ionosphere. (This includes most communications with spacecraft and satellites.) Exceptions include rare occasions of E-skip, when FM and TV signals are reflected. Skywave may be disrupted during geomagnetic storms.


I also have personal experience with the FM signals not being bounced back to the ground.  I live in Arizona where the available radio sations are not plentiful.  Driving across the desert, you can pick up an AM station tens of miles further out than you can recieve an FM station.

Here's the Wiki link if you would like to read the article for yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skywave


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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« Reply #82 on: June 22, 2006, 01:37:27 PM »
Awwww...now we are getting somewhere. The reason so many things on this type of site are argued is the ambiguity of peoples statements. One person makes a statement but means something entirely else. Or someone makes a blanket statement that is entirely false but is clear in their own mind. Think of it as an excercise in communications.

Now, you said that frequencies above 10 MHz couldn't be bounced. I pointed out that was false. You then posted a Wiki that also said it was false. I would also like to point out that wiki's are not always the best place for information to be obtained. For instance, your Wiki says that freqs above 30MHz are not returned. with VHF and UHF in parentheses. However, the 6 meter band is used in ham radio (50-54MHz) and is really only useful when skip opens up. But when the band opens up you can talk all over the US by bouncing off the atomsphere.

Thanks for bringing up the difference between AM radio stations and FM radio stations. And you are correct. You can hear AM stations a lot farther than you can FM. Here's why(and it's not because of ionosphere skip)
Reason #1
AM is amplitude modulation. If you want to know what that is wiki it. It's basically the way modulation is carried on the radio waves. AM radio will always carry farther than FM. FM is frequency modulation. I wish I could draw so I could show you but if you look it up on the net you will see the differences.
Reason #2.
Lower radio frequencies will always carry farther than higher ones. Think of a radio wave as, ...well... a wave. A higher frequency (more cycles a second) make smaller waves and as a result make a flatter traveling radio signal. Making the radio wave follow closer to a line of sight. A lower frequency (fewer cycles per second) makes a larger wave that is more easily bent. Since it will bend easier it will follow large scale terrain changes better. For instance Denver at 5200 feet trying to contact Houston which is very near sea level would be a large scale terrain change.

All that to get to this. AM radio is from 535kHz to 1605 kHz while FM radio is 88.0 MHz to 108.0 MHz. Therefore AM radio is a much lower frequency traveling farther without the need for skip. That's why you will hear AM radio 20,30,50 or even 100 miles farther than FM radio. You would not be actually hearing skip unless you heard an AM radio station 1500 to 2000 miles away. Canada for instance if you were in Arizona.

Again, Engineer, radio is not your stong suit, stay away from it.
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« Reply #83 on: June 22, 2006, 04:02:34 PM »
Quote from: "lomfs24"

Reason #1
AM is amplitude modulation. If you want to know what that is wiki it. It's basically the way modulation is carried on the radio waves. AM radio will always carry farther than FM. FM is frequency modulation. I wish I could draw so I could show you but if you look it up on the net you will see the differences.

Yes, I know the difference.  I even know what they look like.
Quote
Now, you said that frequencies above 10 MHz couldn't be bounced. I pointed out that was false. You then posted a Wiki that also said it was false.

So you are going through all of this because I was off by 20MHz?
Quote
I would also like to point out that wiki's are not always the best place for information to be obtained.

Don't like wiki?  Here are some more:
http://apollo.lsc.vsc.edu/classes/met130/notes/chapter1/ion2.html
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/jk1/lectures/node69.html
http://library.thinkquest.org/C006027/html-ver/es-radio.html
http://members.aol.com/svennord/radio.htm
http://www.wonderquest.com/radio-waves.htm
Now we can go back and forth all day, but to say that radio is not my strong point...If I am not sure what I am taking about, I research it.  I did my homework and came to a conclusion.  After even more research, I stand by my statement with the edit of 30 MHZ if that will make you happy.  Are there certain phenomenon that will allow higher radio frequencies to reflect back to earth?  I'm sure there are.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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« Reply #84 on: June 22, 2006, 04:32:37 PM »
Yes, I am going through all this because you were off by 20MHz or more. 20 MHz in the radio world is a huge chunk of bandwidth. You can get a lot of tons of channels out of a couple MHz.


Anyway, we can put all this mumbo jumbo to rest because in the FE model there is no atmosphere to bounce off so this is all a conspiracy. Right?
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« Reply #85 on: June 22, 2006, 05:11:47 PM »
Quote from: "lomfs24"
Yes, I am going through all this because you were off by 20MHz or more. 20 MHz in the radio world is a huge chunk of bandwidth. You can get a lot of tons of channels out of a couple MHz.

So instead of just saying "don't you mean 30MHz"  or "actually it is 30MHz" you have to go on and on about AM this and FM that? Judging from the sites I provided, I obvously new it was around 30MHz.  But simply stating what my error was must have been too easy for a (going out on a limb here) ham radio enthusiast.  
Quote
Anyway, we can put all this mumbo jumbo to rest because in the FE model there is no atmosphere to bounce off so this is all a conspiracy. Right?

I don't know what the FE says about the atmosphere, or it's layers.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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« Reply #86 on: June 22, 2006, 07:15:24 PM »
Quote from: "lomfs24"
Yes, I am going through all this because you were off by 20MHz or more.

I think you are going through all this for one of two reasons.

1)  You saw a discussion that you knew something about: radio.  You figured you would take advantage of my statement of 10MHz and below to show the forum what you knew about the topic.  I assume you are a ham enthusiast since you referenced it numerous times, so I am sure you know something about radio.

The one I find more likely:
2)  You saw the discussion about radio and given your ham experience you thought you knew all about EM theory.  So when you saw my post about the ionosphere not reflecting back all frequencies of radio, you thought, "What nonsense!"  Now you start to argue about radio like I don't know what it is, and proceed to tell me how wrong I am.  Then I post supporting evidence for my claim, which was slightly off, and you realize you had no idea that I was right.  

Why do I believe this to be so?  Let's review your posts:
Quote
TheEngineer, obviously radio theory is not your strong suit. I respect a lot of what you are saying but you should leave radio theory alone.

Such a strong statement to make just because I was off by 20MHz on the range...Or could it be because you thought I was totally wrong?
Quote
Frequencies below 100 MHz are frequently bounced.

Hmm...you just admitted that the threshold was 30MHz.
Quote
Again, Engineer, radio is not your stong suit, stay away from it.

Not my strong suit because of a 20MHz error?  Even though everything else I stated about the nuances of EM radiation was right - all throughout this entire thread?  Or not my strong suit because you thought you were right?


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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« Reply #87 on: June 22, 2006, 09:30:21 PM »
You are wrong. There I just pointed out your error. LMFAO.

No, the reason I went to all that trouble is because you repeatedly made inaccurate statements while trying to prove some sort of point about radio. Because of the wildly inaccurate statements I am not sure what you are trying to prove.

First you said nothing above AM could be bounced. Then you said nothing above 10Mhz could be bounced. Then you posted some Wiki that proved you even further wrong. You have twisted my statements by saying that I said the threshold was 30MHz when I said nothing of the sort. In fact as you quoted I said that frequencies below 100 MHz are frequently bounced. I even specifically mentioned the 6 meter band that is bounced. It was your wiki quote that put the magic number of 30 MHz on it.

Now, please put it to rest so we can continue with out regularily scheduled posting. And don't try to tell me it was I who highjacked this thread. It was you who first said that AM couldn't be bounced with proves nothing here nor there for or against FE or RE.

Wow, such tempers on a stupid message board about the most ridiculous topic in the world.
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« Reply #88 on: June 22, 2006, 11:52:54 PM »
Quote from: "lomfs24"

No, the reason I went to all that trouble is because you repeatedly made inaccurate statements while trying to prove some sort of point about radio. Because of the wildly inaccurate statements I am not sure what you are trying to prove.

Wildly inaccurate?  20MHz is wildly inaccurate, on a scale up to hundreds of GHz?
Quote
Then you said nothing above 10Mhz could be bounced.

I said I believed that was the number but it was actually 30MHz. 20MHz difference, oops.
You posted:
Quote
Frequencies below 100 MHz are frequently bounced.

When I presented you with documentation that it was not true, you said:
Quote
Yes, I am going through all this because you were off by 20MHz or more.

Quote
You have twisted my statements by saying that I said the threshold was 30MHz

Actually you implied it in the quote above, and in doing so, you stated that the only problem you had with my statement was the number.  Now this number did not just come from wiki, it also came from 8 other sources that I found after just three minutes of looking.  I also found a mathematical model if you want it.
Quote
Then you posted some Wiki that proved you even further wrong.

Actually the wiki and the other sources proved you wrong in saying that 100MHz are bounced regularly.
Quote
And don't try to tell me it was I who highjacked this thread. It was you who first said that AM couldn't be bounced

I never said anything about highjacking or that AM couldn't be bounced.
Quote
Wow, such tempers on a stupid message board about the most ridiculous topic in the world.

I agree:
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TheEngineer, obviously radio theory is not your strong suit...you should leave radio theory alone.

Why are you so angry?
Quote
No, the reason I went to all that trouble is because you repeatedly made inaccurate statements

So far, I have provided the links that show EM interaction with the ionosphere and I can even bring into this a mathematical model.  All you have brought is "I do it all the time."

Now, I can leave it alone. (It's all a conspiracy anyway)


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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« Reply #89 on: June 23, 2006, 05:56:21 AM »
Yes, in the radio world 20 MHz is wildly inaccurate. "I was trying to talk to you but you didn't respond. I was only 20 MHz off, I don't get it" Yes, it is wildly inaccurate.
You are right, you didn't say AM couldn't be bounced. You said anything above AM couldn't be bounced. Which is just a sentence that means nothing. Therefore, wildly inaccurate.

I was agreeing with you that you were no less than 20 MHz off but clearly stated that freq's above 30 MHz could be bounced. Again, it was your wiki quote that placed the magic number.

As far as me "doing it all the time". If I have a choice and I want to believe something I will pick personal experiences over what I read on a wiki or other website any day of the week. And mathmatical models alway work in a perfect world but don't always work in the real world.

Why am I so angry? LOL Read your post a couple up and answer the same question. I am not angry I am simply pointing out where you are wrong. And instead of just saying "You are wrong" I gave you reasons why you were wrong.
7.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot