Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense

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Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #60 on: March 08, 2009, 04:33:58 PM »
If you post a solid block of words, or too many words, they ignore it.  Since I am here for the debate, it behooves me to accept the limitations of the board.

You mean there's stronger evidence for your case in the article/links and you're just deciding not to post it here.

This is an interesting debating technique.

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markjo

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Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #61 on: March 08, 2009, 07:36:19 PM »
"Financial Lowlights
PwC's audit found numerous basic reporting errors in the year-end and third-quarter financial statements that had nothing to do with the conversion, and which auditors said finance executives should have caught before filing the statements.

For example, in the June 2003 quarterly statement, auditors found a $204 million line item called "Other" that "could not be explained or supported, indicating that NASA had not correctly reconciled its budgetary resources to its net cost of operations." PwC also found a $200 million discrepancy between identical line items on two different financial statements. In the year-end audit, PwC discovered that NASA's stated fund balance was actually $2 billion more than the balance in its Treasury account."

"The agency also changed the method used to depreciate assets without disclosing that it had done so and explaining why, as is required by government financial-reporting regulations. And it continued to use an incorrect method to account for costs incurred, despite repeated warnings from the General Accounting Office (GAO) and PwC that the method did not even comply with NASA's own financial-management manual. "

They don't follow the rules, despite repeated warnings, they don't account for the money spent, they make errors so basic that anyone doing math should have seen them.

That's not about documenting the money trail, that's about something else.

Instead of skimming my posts, why don't you read the entire article that I pulled those bits from?

Ravenwood, you may want to take into account that PWC have had some of their own critics too.
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PricewaterhouseCoopers#Criticisms
Dell, Inc. litigation
On January 31, 2007 PwC was named as a co-defendant in a class action lawsuit filed against Dell, the world's number two PC manufacturer. Taken on behalf of shareholders, the lawsuit alleges that Dell, and its auditors, failed to disclose information about Dell's financial condition.

Tyco settlement
In July 2007, PwC agreed to pay $225 million to settle a class-action lawsuit brought by shareholders of Tyco International Ltd. over a multibillion-dollar accounting fraud.

Other punishments and criticisms
India's accounting standards agency ICAI is investigating partners of PwC for professional negligence[41] in the now-defunct Global Trust Bank Ltd. case of 2007. Like Satyam, Global Trust Bank was also based in Hyderabad. This led to Reserve Bank of India banning PwC from auditing any financial company for over a year.[52][53][54] PwC was also associated with the accounting scandal at DSQ Software[55] in India. In July 2006, PwC?s Japanese affiliate Chuo Aoyama was handed a two-month ban[41]. Following the Satyam scandal, the Mumbai-based Small Investor Grievances Association (SIGA) has requested the Indian stock market regulator SEBI to ban PwC permanently and seize its assets in India alleging few more scandals like "Ketan Mehta stock manipulations."
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Ravenwood240

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Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2009, 10:30:35 AM »
"Financial Lowlights
PwC's audit found numerous basic reporting errors in the year-end and third-quarter financial statements that had nothing to do with the conversion, and which auditors said finance executives should have caught before filing the statements.

For example, in the June 2003 quarterly statement, auditors found a $204 million line item called "Other" that "could not be explained or supported, indicating that NASA had not correctly reconciled its budgetary resources to its net cost of operations." PwC also found a $200 million discrepancy between identical line items on two different financial statements. In the year-end audit, PwC discovered that NASA's stated fund balance was actually $2 billion more than the balance in its Treasury account."

"The agency also changed the method used to depreciate assets without disclosing that it had done so and explaining why, as is required by government financial-reporting regulations. And it continued to use an incorrect method to account for costs incurred, despite repeated warnings from the General Accounting Office (GAO) and PwC that the method did not even comply with NASA's own financial-management manual. "

They don't follow the rules, despite repeated warnings, they don't account for the money spent, they make errors so basic that anyone doing math should have seen them.

That's not about documenting the money trail, that's about something else.

Instead of skimming my posts, why don't you read the entire article that I pulled those bits from?

Ravenwood, you may want to take into account that PWC have had some of their own critics too.
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PricewaterhouseCoopers#Criticisms
Dell, Inc. litigation
On January 31, 2007 PwC was named as a co-defendant in a class action lawsuit filed against Dell, the world's number two PC manufacturer. Taken on behalf of shareholders, the lawsuit alleges that Dell, and its auditors, failed to disclose information about Dell's financial condition.

Tyco settlement
In July 2007, PwC agreed to pay $225 million to settle a class-action lawsuit brought by shareholders of Tyco International Ltd. over a multibillion-dollar accounting fraud.

Other punishments and criticisms
India's accounting standards agency ICAI is investigating partners of PwC for professional negligence[41] in the now-defunct Global Trust Bank Ltd. case of 2007. Like Satyam, Global Trust Bank was also based in Hyderabad. This led to Reserve Bank of India banning PwC from auditing any financial company for over a year.[52][53][54] PwC was also associated with the accounting scandal at DSQ Software[55] in India. In July 2006, PwC?s Japanese affiliate Chuo Aoyama was handed a two-month ban[41]. Following the Satyam scandal, the Mumbai-based Small Investor Grievances Association (SIGA) has requested the Indian stock market regulator SEBI to ban PwC permanently and seize its assets in India alleging few more scandals like "Ketan Mehta stock manipulations."

Yes they do.  But the mess with NASA had enough realism to warrant an article in CEO magazine.  The GAO has reams of papers about NASA and "accounting errors" going back to 1982 at least.  The accounting company before Pricewaterhouse, The Arthur (something) company has even more.

Basically, when every group that looks at NASA's money finds error after error, for nearly twenty years and it doesn't get fixed I begin to wonder why not and who is profiting from it.
Belief gets in the way of learning.  If you believe something, you've closed your mind to any further thought.  I know some things, little things, not the nine million names of God.

(Paraphased from R.A. Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love.")

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markjo

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Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2009, 10:56:46 AM »
Yes they do.  But the mess with NASA had enough realism to warrant an article in CEO magazine.  The GAO has reams of papers about NASA and "accounting errors" going back to 1982 at least.  The accounting company before Pricewaterhouse, The Arthur (something) company has even more.

Basically, when every group that looks at NASA's money finds error after error, for nearly twenty years and it doesn't get fixed I begin to wonder why not and who is profiting from it.

Arthur Anderson is another of the "Big 5" accounting firms that has had its share of scandals too.
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Andersen#Accounting_scandals
On June 15, 2002, Andersen was convicted of obstruction of justice for shredding documents related to its audit of Enron, resulting in the Enron scandal.

Are you sure that you want to keep bringing up accounting firms with their own shady backgrounds?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Ravenwood240

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Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2009, 11:08:14 AM »
Yes they do.  But the mess with NASA had enough realism to warrant an article in CEO magazine.  The GAO has reams of papers about NASA and "accounting errors" going back to 1982 at least.  The accounting company before Pricewaterhouse, The Arthur (something) company has even more.

Basically, when every group that looks at NASA's money finds error after error, for nearly twenty years and it doesn't get fixed I begin to wonder why not and who is profiting from it.

Arthur Anderson is another of the "Big 5" accounting firms that has had its share of scandals too.
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Andersen#Accounting_scandals
On June 15, 2002, Andersen was convicted of obstruction of justice for shredding documents related to its audit of Enron, resulting in the Enron scandal.

Are you sure that you want to keep bringing up accounting firms with their own shady backgrounds?

Everyone has had a few problems... but you seem to be ignoring the fact that NASA's problems have been documented time and time again, by everyone that looks at their records.  The government claims they are one of the three worst groups in the entire federal organization.

For twenty years, they've been criticized every year, by everyone and you think that one scandal by a company makes that OK?

Pricewaterhouse, Anderson (Thank you for that, I brain cramped and couldn't remember the name.) and the GAO have all been saying that they don't meet standards for years.

Did you read the bit about NASA changing their budget report to hide excess money?

Perhaps it's OK to have 200 million dollars on an "other" line, but no supporting paperwork, no evidence that the money was spent or what it might have been spent on?

NASA's finances are shit, period.  They have been for longer than I've been alive and no smoke screen or "computer error" claims are going to change that.
Belief gets in the way of learning.  If you believe something, you've closed your mind to any further thought.  I know some things, little things, not the nine million names of God.

(Paraphased from R.A. Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love.")

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markjo

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Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2009, 11:19:19 AM »
I'm not saying that NASA hasn't ever cooked any books.  All I'm saying is that neither of us have the accounting background or the access to the detailed reports to be able to say for certain that the equivalent of NASA's entire budget for the past 30 or more years has been pocketed by the conspiracy.  I'm willing to bet that if you looked hard enough at any government agency (city, state or federal), that significant cases of waste, fraud, abuse and shoddy record keeping can be found among those agencies and their contractors.  So why would you think that NASA would be immune?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

Ravenwood240

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Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #66 on: March 09, 2009, 11:36:38 AM »
I'm not saying that NASA hasn't ever cooked any books.  All I'm saying is that neither of us have the accounting background or the access to the detailed reports to be able to say for certain that the equivalent of NASA's entire budget for the past 30 or more years has been pocketed by the conspiracy.  I'm willing to bet that if you looked hard enough at any government agency (city, state or federal), that significant cases of waste, fraud, abuse and shoddy record keeping can be found among those agencies and their contractors.  So why would you think that NASA would be immune?

I never said they were.  But significant amounts of money are missing here, even in government proportions.  Since I am trying to build a viable conspiracy theory here, the massive amounts of money missing are the first bit of evidence that there is a conspiracy.

I cannot prove a conspiracy, but I do have to have some evidence.

This is the first bit.
Belief gets in the way of learning.  If you believe something, you've closed your mind to any further thought.  I know some things, little things, not the nine million names of God.

(Paraphased from R.A. Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love.")

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markjo

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Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2009, 12:07:48 PM »
I'm not saying that NASA hasn't ever cooked any books.  All I'm saying is that neither of us have the accounting background or the access to the detailed reports to be able to say for certain that the equivalent of NASA's entire budget for the past 30 or more years has been pocketed by the conspiracy.  I'm willing to bet that if you looked hard enough at any government agency (city, state or federal), that significant cases of waste, fraud, abuse and shoddy record keeping can be found among those agencies and their contractors.  So why would you think that NASA would be immune?

I never said they were.  But significant amounts of money are missing here, even in government proportions.  Since I am trying to build a viable conspiracy theory here, the massive amounts of money missing are the first bit of evidence that there is a conspiracy.

I cannot prove a conspiracy, but I do have to have some evidence.

This is the first bit.

Improper documented money is not necessarily the same as missing money.  Improper documentation could mean something as simple as having people working on one project charging some of their time to a different project to keep the first project from going too far over budget.  And just because there is money is in a category called 'other' doesn't mean that it's undocumented.  It just means that the auditor felt that it should have been in a more descriptive category. 

All you have are brief summaries of audits performed by shady auditors that you have no first hand detailed knowledge of.  Sounds like a rock solid foundation to build a conspiracy on to me.  ::)
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

Ravenwood240

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Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #68 on: March 09, 2009, 12:24:54 PM »
I'm not saying that NASA hasn't ever cooked any books.  All I'm saying is that neither of us have the accounting background or the access to the detailed reports to be able to say for certain that the equivalent of NASA's entire budget for the past 30 or more years has been pocketed by the conspiracy.  I'm willing to bet that if you looked hard enough at any government agency (city, state or federal), that significant cases of waste, fraud, abuse and shoddy record keeping can be found among those agencies and their contractors.  So why would you think that NASA would be immune?

I never said they were.  But significant amounts of money are missing here, even in government proportions.  Since I am trying to build a viable conspiracy theory here, the massive amounts of money missing are the first bit of evidence that there is a conspiracy.

I cannot prove a conspiracy, but I do have to have some evidence.

This is the first bit.

Improper documented money is not necessarily the same as missing money.  Improper documentation could mean something as simple as having people working on one project charging some of their time to a different project to keep the first project from going too far over budget.  And just because there is money is in a category called 'other' doesn't mean that it's undocumented.  It just means that the auditor felt that it should have been in a more descriptive category. 

All you have are brief summaries of audits performed by shady auditors that you have no first hand detailed knowledge of.  Sounds like a rock solid foundation to build a conspiracy on to me.  ::)

Jeezus... Did you read any of those links I posted?  Obviously not.  If you had you would see that not all of the errors are about documents. 

"In the year-end audit, PwC discovered that NASA's stated fund balance was actually $2 billion more than the balance in its Treasury account. (PwC noted that NASA changed the balance to match the Treasury balance without disclosing that it had done so in the financial statements.)"

They said "oops, let me change my statement.  This two billion dollars doesn't exist."

"The agency also changed the method used to depreciate assets without disclosing that it had done so and explaining why, as is required by government financial-reporting regulations. And it continued to use an incorrect method to account for costs incurred, despite repeated warnings from the General Accounting Office (GAO) and PwC that the method did not even comply with NASA's own financial-management manual."

Note that NASA is violating the law and their own rules in these two cases.

Note also that the GAO is one of the agencies that is complaining, not just those socalled shady agencies.

(Not that any government agency is all that trust-worthy.)

The facts are simple.  If one person calls you a thief, it could be explained.  But when thirty people examine your life and they all call you a thief, there is reasonable cause to believe that you are in fact, a thief.

Everyone that looks at NASA's budget has found errors, rules being broken and sheer mismanagement for over twenty years.  They openly changed a balance during an Audit, making 2 billion dollars go away.

And all you can say is that everyone that has done the looking is shady?

So, I'm nuts for claiming a few people at the top of one agency are corrupt...  but it's ok for you to claim that everyone that has looked at NASA's books since 1990 at least are crooked?

How's that work again?
Belief gets in the way of learning.  If you believe something, you've closed your mind to any further thought.  I know some things, little things, not the nine million names of God.

(Paraphased from R.A. Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love.")

Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2009, 12:51:27 PM »
The government claims they are one of the three worst groups in the entire federal organization.

Worst in what way? Worst for stealing money? Or worst for returning accounts correctly?

One of the three? So there's a department worse than them? OMGZ someone update the conspiracy list.

Note that NASA is violating the law and their own rules in these two cases.

Are you going to call the police or shall I?

Adjusting accounts does not (immediately) mean stealing. And certainly not the 565 BILLION which you now seemed to have shyed away from.

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markjo

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Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #70 on: March 09, 2009, 01:20:00 PM »
I'm not saying that NASA hasn't ever cooked any books.  All I'm saying is that neither of us have the accounting background or the access to the detailed reports to be able to say for certain that the equivalent of NASA's entire budget for the past 30 or more years has been pocketed by the conspiracy.  I'm willing to bet that if you looked hard enough at any government agency (city, state or federal), that significant cases of waste, fraud, abuse and shoddy record keeping can be found among those agencies and their contractors.  So why would you think that NASA would be immune?

I never said they were.  But significant amounts of money are missing here, even in government proportions.  Since I am trying to build a viable conspiracy theory here, the massive amounts of money missing are the first bit of evidence that there is a conspiracy.

I cannot prove a conspiracy, but I do have to have some evidence.

This is the first bit.

Improper documented money is not necessarily the same as missing money.  Improper documentation could mean something as simple as having people working on one project charging some of their time to a different project to keep the first project from going too far over budget.  And just because there is money is in a category called 'other' doesn't mean that it's undocumented.  It just means that the auditor felt that it should have been in a more descriptive category. 

All you have are brief summaries of audits performed by shady auditors that you have no first hand detailed knowledge of.  Sounds like a rock solid foundation to build a conspiracy on to me.  ::)

Jeezus... Did you read any of those links I posted?  Obviously not.  If you had you would see that not all of the errors are about documents. 

"In the year-end audit, PwC discovered that NASA's stated fund balance was actually $2 billion more than the balance in its Treasury account. (PwC noted that NASA changed the balance to match the Treasury balance without disclosing that it had done so in the financial statements.)"

They said "oops, let me change my statement.  This two billion dollars doesn't exist."

"The agency also changed the method used to depreciate assets without disclosing that it had done so and explaining why, as is required by government financial-reporting regulations. And it continued to use an incorrect method to account for costs incurred, despite repeated warnings from the General Accounting Office (GAO) and PwC that the method did not even comply with NASA's own financial-management manual."

Note that NASA is violating the law and their own rules in these two cases.

Note also that the GAO is one of the agencies that is complaining, not just those socalled shady agencies.

(Not that any government agency is all that trust-worthy.)

The facts are simple.  If one person calls you a thief, it could be explained.  But when thirty people examine your life and they all call you a thief, there is reasonable cause to believe that you are in fact, a thief.

Everyone that looks at NASA's budget has found errors, rules being broken and sheer mismanagement for over twenty years.  They openly changed a balance during an Audit, making 2 billion dollars go away.

And all you can say is that everyone that has done the looking is shady?

So, I'm nuts for claiming a few people at the top of one agency are corrupt...  but it's ok for you to claim that everyone that has looked at NASA's books since 1990 at least are crooked?

How's that work again?

I would not be surprised at all if NASA's are a complete mess, and from what the various auditors say, they obviously are.  But please cite one credible source that claims that this is a case of anything more than just NASA trying to cover up shoddy accounting from incompetent managers.  I still see no evidence of a conspiracy.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

Dr Matrix

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Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2009, 01:21:56 PM »
Incompetent management is about the most convincing cover story I ever heard of.
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2009, 02:07:12 PM »
Incompetent management is about the most convincing cover story I ever heard of.

Not very convincing then.

To recap:

Incompetent management =/= conspiracy

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Dr Matrix

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Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2009, 02:11:37 PM »
Or to put it another way:

Incompetent management = believable
Incompetent management = easy to fabricate proof for
Incompetent management = an accepted fact of life in the mass media
Incompetent management = status quo in most large organisations (at least middle management)

which all leads to

Incompetent management = perfect cover for a well-orchestrated cover-up.

It's a brilliant idea, I only wish I'd thought of it first  :-\
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #74 on: March 09, 2009, 02:15:56 PM »
Or to put it another way:

Incompetent management = believable
Incompetent management = easy to fabricate proof for
Incompetent management = an accepted fact of life in the mass media
Incompetent management = status quo in most large organisations (at least middle management)

which all leads to

Incompetent management = perfect cover for a well-orchestrated cover-up.

It's a brilliant idea, I only wish I'd thought of it first  :-\

And yet, to recap

Incompetent management =/= conspiracy

?

Dr Matrix

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  • In Soviet Russia, Matrix enters you!
Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #75 on: March 09, 2009, 02:20:38 PM »
Or to put it another way:

Incompetent management = believable
Incompetent management = easy to fabricate proof for
Incompetent management = an accepted fact of life in the mass media
Incompetent management = status quo in most large organisations (at least middle management)

which all leads to

Incompetent management = perfect cover for a well-orchestrated cover-up.

It's a brilliant idea, I only wish I'd thought of it first  :-\
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #76 on: March 09, 2009, 02:23:41 PM »
incompetant management is not evidence of conspiracy. it may be a cunning ruse, but like so much else in a flat earthers brain, you just don't know.

now stop spamming the boards noob.

?

Ravenwood240

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Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #77 on: March 09, 2009, 02:26:08 PM »
The government claims they are one of the three worst groups in the entire federal organization.

Worst in what way? Worst for stealing money? Or worst for returning accounts correctly?

One of the three? So there's a department worse than them? OMGZ someone update the conspiracy list.

Note that NASA is violating the law and their own rules in these two cases.

Are you going to call the police or shall I?

Adjusting accounts does not (immediately) mean stealing. And certainly not the 565 BILLION which you now seemed to have shyed away from.

Look, if you people want to debate this, how about reading the articles first?

http://www.cfo.com/article.cfm/3013427

(I also miscalled the mag... I mistakenly id'ed it as CEO, not CFO.  My Bad.)

The National Aeronautics and Space Administration has long been criticized for its inability to manage costs.

This is not news or a random thing I am talking about.

Brown's explanation for the disclaimed audit may account for some of the problems identified in both the June 30, 2003, financials and the year-end audit ? but only some.

No one that has examined the data believes NASA when they say it's all computer error.

PwC's audit found numerous basic reporting errors in the year-end and third-quarter financial statements that had nothing to do with the conversion, and which auditors said finance executives should have caught before filing the statements

They can't do their jobs.  Why would someone hire somebody that can't do their job.  To make it easier to steal, maybe?

In addition, finance personnel responsible for converting the year-end data (and who racked up the $565 billion in adjustments) didn't have the skills they needed to do the job

NASA admits their people are poorly trained and useless.  Again, why would anyone hire people like that?

The disclaimed audit would not be as significant if it were just a one-off even, but in fact, NASA has a long-standing history of financial mismanagement. The agency's contract-management function has earned a spot on the GAO's "high risk" watch list every year since 1990 (see "Mission [out of] Control," at the end of this article). This year, NASA was 1 of only 3 federal agencies (out of 23) that received a disclaimed audit opinion.

Nineteen years on the list.  That should tell anyone with a brain that something is seriously wrong.

Other lowlights of NASA's financial history include the ISS audit, which the GAO has performed annually since 2000 to determine whether NASA is adhering to congressional spending caps placed on the ISS and related space-shuttle flights. In each audit, the GAO auditors have been "unable to determine whether the obligations that NASA was reporting to Congress were accurate," says Gregory D. Kutz, director in the financial management assurance team at the GAO. Adds Kutz, "This is a problem that has been around NASA for a long time." The latest GAO audit report, released in April, revealed that NASA didn't include any information on the ISS and shuttle obligations in its FY 2005 budget request, as required by law, "so we had nothing to audit this year," the report said


The GAO admits that NASA is in violation, but since there are no penalties for these violations, there's nothing anyone can do about it.

In 2000, a $644 million oversight was discovered on NASA's 1999 financial audit. The mistake was detected not by its auditors (then Arthur Andersen) nor by its CFO (then Arnold Holz), but by a congressional staffer reviewing the statements

Some staff weinie found an error of an unspecified type... after the CFO and the Auditors missed it.  Or was it ignored?  How can you just miss 644 million dollars?

Such institutionalized denial may have created a situation in which one hand of NASA doesn't know what the other is doing

Ten separate stations, each doing whatever they want...  why would you set any agency up that way?  It's illogical, wasteful and redundant.  Unless you want to waste money and create problems.  Of course, it is easier to steal in this kind of network since no one knows what's going on.

Although NASA's institutional deficiencies are significant, some problems are exclusively the province of NASA's finance department. Based on its history, it appears that the team is just not very good at what it's supposed to do

Again, this is one of the best known agencies in the world.  They could get great people to work for them.  Instead, they hire people that are completely incapable of doing their job, give them half assed training and let them run with it.  Why?

In addition, despite opposition by the GAO, NASA still uses an accounting procedure that doesn't comply with government accounting regulations ? or even with NASA's own financial-management manual

They don't follow anyone's rules, not even their own.

Perhaps the most fundamental problem with financial management at NASA is that the agency doesn't need to be financially accountable to get full funding for its projects. This lack of any consequence for the poor quality of its work makes dramatic improvement in NASA's finance department unlikely


What the hell?  They don't have to account for their money, they can still get more money, there are no penalties for breaking the rules and no one holds them to account?  Who the hell set this shit up and how do I get a job like this?  Jeezus, if I fell into a set up like this, I would be seriously tempted to give myself a few perks... like 204 million dollars in "Other" with no documents to show what I did with it.


But despite Brown's noble intentions, the truth is that even 14 years after passage of the 1990 Federal CFO Act, which requires federal agencies to produce auditable financial statements, a disclaimed audit opinion is still no big deal

The law always lags behind... People create crimes faster than the feds can pass laws but even with that, 14 years seems to be a bit much.

Don't look to Congress to impose accountability on NASA's financials. This year's disclaimed audit opinion barely caused a blip on its radar screen

Huh?  Twenty years of mismanagment, billions of dollars in losses and no one cares?  What?  You might think they were feeding at this gravy train.

Every year since 1990, the General Accounting Office has kept NASA on its "high risk" watch list because of the agency's problems with contract management

NASA may have some brilliant astrophysicists on their payroll, but they appear to be hiring retarts for their accounting department.

...NASA's ability to collect, maintain, and report the full cost of its projects and programs is weakened by diverse and often incompatible center-level accounting systems and uneven and nonstandard cost-reporting capabilities....

Back to allowing each separate plant to make it's own accounting rules up.  Huh?

When first proposed in 1984, the International Space Station was supposed to cost $8 billion, but so far Congress has appropriated $32 billion for it.

Four times the supposed cost.  You know, if I ran my house that way, I'd be a homeless welfare case or in jail in less than a year.

How does it stand that NASA can continually flaunt their inability to do anything that doesn't have to do with space and get away with it?

I can only think of two ways.  They are slick enough not to get caught, which can't be the case or we wouldn't be having this debate.

The other way is to make sure that the people that could do something about it, (The Senate Finance Committee.) doesn't want to do anything about it.


Belief gets in the way of learning.  If you believe something, you've closed your mind to any further thought.  I know some things, little things, not the nine million names of God.

(Paraphased from R.A. Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love.")

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Dr Matrix

  • 4312
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Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #78 on: March 09, 2009, 02:26:24 PM »
incompetant management is not evidence of conspiracy. it may be a cunning ruse, but like so much else in a flat earthers brain, you just don't know.

Incompetent management is circumstantial evidence, but like so much in an RE'ers brain only black and white are acceptable standpoints.

Quote
noob

*checks relative post counts*
*ignores outlandish claim*
Quote from: Arthur Schopenhauer
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

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Ravenwood240

  • 2070
  • I disagree. What was the Question?
Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #79 on: March 09, 2009, 02:32:13 PM »
Speaking of post counts Matrix, you have to start showing up more, I'm catching up to you. ;D
Belief gets in the way of learning.  If you believe something, you've closed your mind to any further thought.  I know some things, little things, not the nine million names of God.

(Paraphased from R.A. Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love.")

Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #80 on: March 09, 2009, 02:35:58 PM »
incompetant management is not evidence of conspiracy. it may be a cunning ruse, but like so much else in a flat earthers brain, you just don't know.

Incompetent management is circumstantial evidence

Whaaa?! It's not even circumstantial evidence.

A NASA employee being seen driving away from his place of work on his last day of employment, shouting "woo woo im rich im rich" whilst dollar bills drift out of his partially closed boot.

That would be circumstantial.

Incompetent management is evidence of incompetent management.

Keep fishing noob. You'll catch that big ol' catfish one day.

Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #81 on: March 09, 2009, 07:16:31 PM »
so we agree no evidence for conspiracy, only badly management

Now can anyone reply the OP...

Since the other topic has been closed without reason ("This experiment was already in here" - I found stuff about gravity, but not of this experiment itself)
Furthermore i got some other questions to you at the end..

Dear Mod: I would really be pleased, if you could read, before doing anything.. (u know.. first thinking...)

So here's the original post:

Quote
http://www.fourmilab.ch/gravitation/foobar/

Just before half of the document there is a nice description for a gravity experiment anyone can do which profes the existence of gravity, making the UA (if I remeber right) kinda senseless..

But it would also show, that at least parts of the theory are disprovable..

Maybe you guys think about the hole theory after that..

and last but not least - why pumping millions of dollars into a conspiracy that does not provides any power or profit?

I'm really surprised btw that the other topic only got closed and not deleted.. because this experiment is unevitable evidence for "magic", like some of you like to call gravity..

« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 07:19:43 AM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »

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Ravenwood240

  • 2070
  • I disagree. What was the Question?
Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #82 on: March 10, 2009, 10:44:31 AM »
incompetant management is not evidence of conspiracy. it may be a cunning ruse, but like so much else in a flat earthers brain, you just don't know.

Incompetent management is circumstantial evidence

Whaaa?! It's not even circumstantial evidence.

A NASA employee being seen driving away from his place of work on his last day of employment, shouting "woo woo im rich im rich" whilst dollar bills drift out of his partially closed boot.

That would be circumstantial.

Incompetent management is evidence of incompetent management.

Keep fishing noob. You'll catch that big ol' catfish one day.

You had better go look up circumstantial evidence again.

20 years plus of pouring money down a funnel with no end in sight.  That money went somewhere.  Tell me where it went.

It just didn't disappear, it didn't go to Mexico for a beer, it had to go somewhere.

Where?

@Mendoza:  That thread was closed for a reason... and the OP was told why.  Don't get this one closed trying to argue something that has been done to death.  And don't bother asking me about it either.  It was before my time.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 10:46:10 AM by Ravenwood240 »
Belief gets in the way of learning.  If you believe something, you've closed your mind to any further thought.  I know some things, little things, not the nine million names of God.

(Paraphased from R.A. Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love.")

Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #83 on: March 10, 2009, 11:29:13 AM »
I guess the space pen is a perfect example of where the money goes. Im not even sure what this thread is trying to show. Is there a link between poor management and a conspiracy?

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Ravenwood240

  • 2070
  • I disagree. What was the Question?
Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #84 on: March 10, 2009, 11:51:54 AM »
I guess the space pen is a perfect example of where the money goes. Im not even sure what this thread is trying to show. Is there a link between poor management and a conspiracy?

Poor management gets booted quickly.  everyone in America has seen the management of the country change hands every four or eight years.

When the politicians clean the house they get rid of everyone that might be loyal to the last president, who might embarrass them or who they just don't like.

NASA is no different... it has it's political problems and hassles, but somehow, no one has done anythign about the biggest federal waste of money in the budget for 20 years.

No congressional committees, no major news stories, nothing to show that we are pouring money into a black hole.

Why?

Saving the country a few billion dollars would be great politically... worth quite a few votes.

maybe a promotion or two in the GAO, if you could straighten NASA's crap enough to get an accurate audit.

Hell, after listening to the auditors, the Senate Finance Committee and the GAO bitch for 20 years, you'd think NASA would fix the problem, just to shut them up.

But they don't.  All that money just continues to disappear and no body cares.

Is that because they know where it's going and aren't going to kill the golden goose?

Is it because somebody with enough authority to make it stick has told them to ignore it?

Or, is it simply because the US government is full of thieving, lying bastards that don't give a damn what happens to our tax dollars as long as they get their cut?

Any way it goes, someone in NASA knows where the money is going.  Millions of dollars don't just disappear, they don't go to Mexico for a beer, they're not trying to get a tan.

Given the amount of time that this has been going on, it is not just one person involved.  And that makes it a conspiracy.

Now, proving that the people jacking NASA are running a flat earth conspiracy is a bit harder.

I'm still working on that.
Belief gets in the way of learning.  If you believe something, you've closed your mind to any further thought.  I know some things, little things, not the nine million names of God.

(Paraphased from R.A. Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love.")

Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #85 on: March 10, 2009, 11:54:26 AM »
Don't forget you tin hat, you don't want them reading your thoughts.

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Ravenwood240

  • 2070
  • I disagree. What was the Question?
Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #86 on: March 10, 2009, 11:56:30 AM »
Don't forget you tin hat, you don't want them reading your thoughts.

Why would I worry about that?

The CIA are the ones with the mind reading satellites, not NASA. I'm not after them.  Keep your conspiracies straight.
Belief gets in the way of learning.  If you believe something, you've closed your mind to any further thought.  I know some things, little things, not the nine million names of God.

(Paraphased from R.A. Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love.")

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markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 42861
Re: Gravity Experiment and Questions of common sense
« Reply #87 on: March 10, 2009, 03:04:11 PM »
I guess the space pen is a perfect example of where the money goes. Im not even sure what this thread is trying to show. Is there a link between poor management and a conspiracy?

Sorry bowler, but there was no government money used to develop the space pen.
Quote from: author=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_pen#Uses_in_the_U.S._and_Russian_space_programs
NASA never approached Paul Fisher to develop a pen, nor did Fisher receive any government funding for the pen's development. Fisher invented it independently, and then asked NASA to try it. After the introduction of the AG7 Space Pen, both the American and Soviet (later Russian) space agencies adopted it. Previously both the Russian and American astronauts used grease pencils and plastic slates.

The space toilet, on the other hand...
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.