War Crimes

OK Raven;

While I may appreciate and agree with your last 2 posts; I must point to these:

Quote

The UCMJ is a set of regulations for American military personnel, not American civilians, foreign nationals or anyone not enlisted in one of the branches of the US armed forces.

The UCMJ  applies to the conduct of American military personnel not that of their illegally detained ?enemy combatants?. 

Uniform Code of Military Justice...  it doesn't even apply to American civilians, why should it apply to anyone else?

Quote

I said that if your country is doing it, you've got no room to talk about anyone else.

I am not defending America's mistakes, I am saying that very few people in the world have any right to bitch about the US's acts, when they have done the same thing.

Anyone has the right to decry any offense regardless of who is engaged in the offence.

Difference of opinion.  I don't think the pot calling the kettle black matters at all.  If murderer one calls murderer two an evil bastard, it doesn't matter, they both need to be shot.

Quote

A Terrorist is a lower life form and any country that glorifies a terrorist is just as criminal, even if they haven't killed anyone

We as a nation do not glorify anyone who is a terrorist.

Custer was certainly glorified for his actions against the Lakota and we seem to maintain a high opinion of Andrew Jackson despite his violation of a Supreme Court Order in forcibly relocating the Cherokee.  Or do these examples not ?count? due to the popularity of each?

Does it matter, since every person involved in those scenarios are dead?  Those of us that study history know what they did.  If there is a higher power at the end of the world, that power will know and judge them correctly.
 

Quote

As for the Terrorist issue, If I knew a terrorist, I would shoot them.

After a fair trial and sentencing, I trust. Otherwise, it?s considered murder.

That depends on their actions when I find them.  Montana is a wonderful place to apply a self defense plea in court.

Quote

If the techniques they used are not considered crimes at this time, then they cannot be charged.

I suppose this somewhat addresses the previous issue, re- Custer, at least. Even though he was violating then current treaties.

Quote

Now, does water boarding constitute "severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental"? According to the then AG, it doesn't. According to the AG now, it does. Who's right, I wonder?

No need to wonder; The current AG is adhering to International Law and the former was not.

Quote

But does waterboarding constitute "severe" suffering? It doesn't matter why they did it, or even what they did, if it doesn't meet that criteria first.

By the number of times this question is posed; you certainly seem to be trying very hard to somehow condone the use of this procedure.

Not condoning, but even by the links I posted earlier, some forms of the water based interrogation techniques are legal.  Is waterboarding one of them?  I don't know and no one has posted a link to a law that says it is.

Quote

I don't think being rubbed with ham fat is severe... despite the opinion of a Muslim.

Of course; your personal opinion clearly trumps that of an entire culture.

No, but the point is that something that seems severe to one person may not be severe to another.  Speaking as me, being forced to stay in any small enclosed space without reading material is far more severe than any physical damage you could do.

Hey! My intent is not to "bash" either you or our U.S. of A. I actually aplaud your exemplary passion and vigor.

However, I am inviting you to examine these opinions to which you are subscribing and fervently defending; as they display a very skewed ethic at odds with that espoused by our credo of "Liberty and Justice for all."

Liberty and Justice for all.  A wonderful thing and someday, it may be possible, after the human race has evolved past war, murder, rape, terrorism, bigotry and all those other things people the world over hurt each other with.

Until that day, Some restrictions on people will have to be maintained and when people violate those restrictions, they have to be punished.

Thanks for sharing.

Yes, I am proud of my country, yes, I think it's as good as or better than any other country, that's why I continue to live here.  I will not deny that we aren't perfect.  The USA has sometimes failed to live up to the ideals we hold dear.

Quote from: Mythix Profit on February 05, 2009, 10:18:02 PM

OK Raven;

While I may appreciate and agree with your last 2 posts; I must point to these:

Quote

The UCMJ is a set of regulations for American military personnel, not American civilians, foreign nationals or anyone not enlisted in one of the branches of the US armed forces.

The UCMJ  applies to the conduct of American military personnel not that of their illegally detained ?enemy combatants?. 

Uniform Code of Military Justice...  it doesn't even apply to American civilians, why should it apply to anyone else?

It seems to me your missing his and my point. The point was that the UCMJ forbids soldiers from torturing anyone, and forbids the use of torture obtained evidence as evidence in military tribunals. The Guantanamo tribunals were military tribunals not governed by the UCMJ solely to allow torture based evidence to be used. No one is saying the UCMJ should be applied to anyone other than American soldiers were saying it should have applied to American soldiers involved in the Guantanamo process

Quote from: Mythix Profit on February 05, 2009, 10:18:02 PM

Quote

I said that if your country is doing it, you've got no room to talk about anyone else.

I am not defending America's mistakes, I am saying that very few people in the world have any right to bitch about the US's acts, when they have done the same thing.

Anyone has the right to decry any offense regardless of who is engaged in the offence.

Difference of opinion.  I don't think the pot calling the kettle black matters at all.  If murderer one calls murderer two an evil bastard, it doesn't matter, they both need to be shot.

Also not his point, if murderer X tells murderer Y that "murdering is wrong and that consequently Y is a bad man" it makes X a hypocrite for being the one to deliver that message. But the truth of his message (that murder is wrong) is still true and his criticism is still valid.



A clarifying
Cinlef

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on February 06, 2009, 10:58:12 AM

Quote from: Mythix Profit on February 05, 2009, 10:18:02 PM

OK Raven;

While I may appreciate and agree with your last 2 posts; I must point to these:

Quote

The UCMJ is a set of regulations for American military personnel, not American civilians, foreign nationals or anyone not enlisted in one of the branches of the US armed forces.

The UCMJ  applies to the conduct of American military personnel not that of their illegally detained ?enemy combatants?. 

Uniform Code of Military Justice...  it doesn't even apply to American civilians, why should it apply to anyone else?

It seems to me your missing his and my point. The point was that the UCMJ forbids soldiers from torturing anyone, and forbids the use of torture obtained evidence as evidence in military tribunals. The Guantanamo tribunals were military tribunals not governed by the UCMJ solely to allow torture based evidence to be used. No one is saying the UCMJ should be applied to anyone other than American soldiers were saying it should have applied to American soldiers involved in the Guantanamo process

You're right, I did miss that.  I would think it does, as I seem to recall a couple of court martials about it. Or did they claim the HSA overrode that?

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on February 06, 2009, 10:58:12 AM

Quote from: Mythix Profit on February 05, 2009, 10:18:02 PM

Quote

I said that if your country is doing it, you've got no room to talk about anyone else.

I am not defending America's mistakes, I am saying that very few people in the world have any right to bitch about the US's acts, when they have done the same thing.

Anyone has the right to decry any offense regardless of who is engaged in the offence.

Difference of opinion.  I don't think the pot calling the kettle black matters at all.  If murderer one calls murderer two an evil bastard, it doesn't matter, they both need to be shot.

Also not his point, if murderer X tells murderer Y that "murdering is wrong and that consequently Y is a bad man" it makes X a hypocrite for being the one to deliver that message. But the truth of his message (that murder is wrong) is still true and his criticism is still valid.

It may well be valid, but it's like politicians calling each other liars.  When one politician calls another poly a liar, everyone ignores it, because they all lie.  If one country is busily violating human rights, (coughChinacough), who listens to them when they accuse other people of the same thing?

If you want to be heard and more importantly, listened to, make sure your hands are clean first.



A clarifying
Cinlef

On a side note, does anyone know why the bleeding quoter keeps screwing me up?  Hara noticed it a week ago and I can't get it to stop.

On a side note, does anyone know why the bleeding quoter keeps screwing me up?  Hara noticed it a week ago and I can't get it to stop.

Cos your retarted?

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on February 06, 2009, 12:49:18 PM

On a side note, does anyone know why the bleeding quoter keeps screwing me up?  Hara noticed it a week ago and I can't get it to stop.

Cos your retarted?

   And this after I voted to love you.

Quote from: Colonel Gaydafi on February 06, 2009, 12:52:33 PM

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on February 06, 2009, 12:49:18 PM

On a side note, does anyone know why the bleeding quoter keeps screwing me up?  Hara noticed it a week ago and I can't get it to stop.

Cos your retarted?

   And this after I voted to love you.

Loving me doesn't mean I'll love you back

I see how you are....

No cookies for you.

I make my own cookies anyway so what do I care?

I make my own cookies anyway so what do I care?

Because they taste better when illegal immigrants make them for you

Raven your post seems to be missing [/quote] commands, not sure if it is the button or if they were unitentionally deleted but add that behind the existing [/quote] and it should be fixed

 [/off topic digression]

Friendly neighborhood mod
Cinlef

Raven your post seems to be missing

commands, not sure if it is the button or if they were unitentionally deleted but add that behind the existing [/quote] and it should be fixed

 [/off topic digression]

Friendly neighborhood mod
Cinlef
[/quote]

That would make me feel so much better if I was deleting, changing or moving anything.  Since I'm not and my knowledge of code is only larger than my knowledge of quantum physics, it doesn't help much.

Quote from: Colonel Gaydafi on February 06, 2009, 01:06:24 PM

I make my own cookies anyway so what do I care?

Because they taste better when illegal immigrants make them for you

Only if those illegal immigrants make them with the right ingrediants

Quote from: Cinlef on February 06, 2009, 01:10:31 PM

Raven your post seems to be missing [ /quote ] commands, not sure if it is the button or if they were unitentionally deleted but add that behind the existing [ /quote ] and it should be fixed

 [/off topic digression]

Friendly neighborhood mod
Cinlef

That would make me feel so much better if I was deleting, changing or moving anything.  Since I'm not and my knowledge of code is only larger than my knowledge of quantum physics, it doesn't help much.

If you like I can use my mod powers to fix your posts and put your responses outside the quote boxes

Friendly neighborhood mod
Cinlef

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on February 06, 2009, 01:13:30 PM

Quote from: Cinlef on February 06, 2009, 01:10:31 PM

Raven your post seems to be missing

commands, not sure if it is the button or if they were unitentionally deleted but add that behind the existing

and it should be fixed

 [/off topic digression]

Friendly neighborhood mod
Cinlef

That would make me feel so much better if I was deleting, changing or moving anything.  Since I'm not and my knowledge of code is only larger than my knowledge of quantum physics, it doesn't help much.
[/quote]

If you like I can use my mod powers to fix your posts and put your responses outside the quote boxes

Friendly neighborhood mod
Cinlef
[/quote]

No... I'll get Greeneyes to figure out what I'm doing wrong after she gets out of class.

That will let her help me, which makes her feel good, which means I'll get to feel good for making her feel good... ahh, never mind.  I can see Dann drooling already.

I can see Dann drooling already.

Yeah, but that beard should catch most of it.

On illegal immigrants and cookies; most of the territory currently comprising the US was acquired through illegal immigrants steadily outnumbering the locals, then fomenting revolution and war to justify the taking of "all the cookies".

The illegal immigrants should just claim the land they inhabit for themselves. Never mind that there's people already living there; the original American colonists certainly didn't.

Shush you guys, you're not supposed to say the truth about the US

Quote

I can see Dann drooling already.

Yeah, but that beard should catch most of it.

On illegal immigrants and cookies; most of the territory currently comprising the US was acquired through illegal immigrants steadily outnumbering the locals, then fomenting revolution and war to justify the taking of "all the cookies".

And the only difference between those immigrants and the locals, is that the locals trespassed first.  But since that is true of every country in the world... no one cares.

(Scratching head.)  Is there any country in the entire world where the first people to settle there are still in control?

There's a huge difference, Proleg.  There were no laws then, no deeds or ownership, none of that.  I don't know about you, but I am certain that if someone tried to claim father's land or granddad's ranch, they'd be shot and killed.

The locals couldn't hold their land... old story.  The Celts did it to the Picts, the Danes to the Celts, etc...

Every nation stands on land stolen from previous owners.  That was 200 plus years ago or longer.

If the immigrants can take the entire country over, then in 200 years, some weasel will be nagging at them.  Until then... we own it, just as morally and righteously as any other country.

Shush you guys, you're not supposed to say the truth about the US

This is exactly what I meant earlier...

The brits stole the land from the people that were there before them.

So did the russians, the germans, the arabs and every other nation, yes, including the USA.  Why do you single out the USA for something that every single nation has done?

Does it make it right that you did it 500 years ago, rather than 200 years ago?

Hypocrisy is fail.

The illegal immigrants should just claim the land they inhabit for themselves. Never mind that there's people already living there; the original American colonists certainly didn't.

A reframing of my point.
When I hear someone gripe about "learning the language" (english), I point to the fact that espanol has a longer history in this region (Nevada) and if they get too pissy; I tell 'em to learn Piute.

Btw many of the local aboriginals only displaced some of the fauna as there were no other 2 legs (people) present.

Quote from: Colonel Gaydafi on February 06, 2009, 02:11:01 PM

Shush you guys, you're not supposed to say the truth about the US

This is exactly what I meant earlier...

The brits stole the land from the people that were there before them.

So did the russians, the germans, the arabs and every other nation, yes, including the USA.  Why do you single out the USA for something that every single nation has done?

Does it make it right that you did it 500 years ago, rather than 200 years ago?

Hypocrisy is fail.

They had divine right, cuz the king said so.

Quote from: Colonel Gaydafi on February 06, 2009, 02:11:01 PM

Shush you guys, you're not supposed to say the truth about the US

This is exactly what I meant earlier...

The brits stole the land from the people that were there before them.

So did the russians, the germans, the arabs and every other nation, yes, including the USA.  Why do you single out the USA for something that every single nation has done?

Does it make it right that you did it 500 years ago, rather than 200 years ago?

Hypocrisy is fail.

The Brits are a mongrel race that include picts and celts so I don't really see it as invaders taking over

I think people find it more offensive because you guys did it more recently. Its like I take over your house tomorrow and then complain when someone takes it over the next day.

There's a huge difference, Proleg.  There were no laws then, no deeds or ownership, none of that.  

There were, they were just ignored. The treaties were violated, the land stolen, the people either relocated or slaughtered...all in the name of Manifest Destiny.

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on February 06, 2009, 02:19:21 PM

Quote from: Colonel Gaydafi on February 06, 2009, 02:11:01 PM

Shush you guys, you're not supposed to say the truth about the US

This is exactly what I meant earlier...

The brits stole the land from the people that were there before them.

So did the russians, the germans, the arabs and every other nation, yes, including the USA.  Why do you single out the USA for something that every single nation has done?

Does it make it right that you did it 500 years ago, rather than 200 years ago?

Hypocrisy is fail.

The Brits are a mongrel race that include picts and celts so I don't really see it as invaders taking over

I think people find it more offensive because you guys did it more recently. Its like I take over your house tomorrow and then complain when someone takes it over the next day.

Anyway...I'm an American who happens to be 1/8 Flathead. Since my forefathers took the land from my forefathers...  Do I claim to be the victor, or take the Native route and complain about being displaced?

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on February 06, 2009, 02:16:10 PM

There's a huge difference, Proleg.  There were no laws then, no deeds or ownership, none of that.  

There were, they were just ignored. The treaties were violated, the land stolen, the people either relocated or slaughtered...all in the name of Manifest Destiny.

Considering that the King of England had given the land out before anyone ever saw it, I would say that any treaty made prior to 1776 was either illegal or England's problem.

I believe the Spaniards divvied up the Southern part of the American continent that way as well.

Quote from: Proleg on February 06, 2009, 02:24:42 PM

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on February 06, 2009, 02:16:10 PM

There's a huge difference, Proleg.  There were no laws then, no deeds or ownership, none of that.  

There were, they were just ignored. The treaties were violated, the land stolen, the people either relocated or slaughtered...all in the name of Manifest Destiny.

Considering that the King of England had given the land out before anyone ever saw it, I would say that any treaty made prior to 1776 was either illegal or England's problem.

I believe the Spaniards divvied up the Southern part of the American continent that way as well.

So?

So; the problem of indigenous rights is an ongoing issue here, with the perennially corrupt BIA continuing to fuck over the poeple whos' interests they are purported to uphold and defend.

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on February 06, 2009, 02:31:44 PM

Quote from: Proleg on February 06, 2009, 02:24:42 PM

Quote from: Ravenwood240 on February 06, 2009, 02:16:10 PM

There's a huge difference, Proleg.  There were no laws then, no deeds or ownership, none of that.  

There were, they were just ignored. The treaties were violated, the land stolen, the people either relocated or slaughtered...all in the name of Manifest Destiny.

Considering that the King of England had given the land out before anyone ever saw it, I would say that any treaty made prior to 1776 was either illegal or England's problem.

I believe the Spaniards divvied up the Southern part of the American continent that way as well.

So?

Montana entered the union, officially becoming a state November 8,1889.

My people were not responsible for any wrongs done before then.  And since, as a Salish, my people gave (had stolen from them) the 81 million acres of Montana to... my ancestors, I'm going to sit up here and laugh.

Sorry, but I find this obsession with crimes committed so long ago that no one alive was there just a bit silly.

Doesn't the world have enough current problems, without dredging up this crap?

Make sure it doesn't happen again, yes...

Lay blame for it?  I'll tell you what.  You show me one living person that stole land from the Indians, broke treaties with them or otherwise was responsible for the Trail of Tears, The Bitterroot March or any other hardship and I will join you in calling for legal action.

Until then, know the history, learn from it, but stop wallowing in it.

If my Grandmother, who was a full blooded Salish could get over it, everyone else can.

I happened to recently view Spielbergs "Into the West" and mostly felt digust and embarassment at the whole Manifest Destiny ideology which still colors US policies, both domestic and foreign.

Btw; I am a complex hybrid, both genetic and ethnic. My ancestors obviously got along quite well together (mostly).

Yes , I agree that we need to "get over It"; but, not by "glossing over It".

The US is still operating under the current version of Manifest Destiny ala the Bush Doctrine.

I happened to recently view Spielbergs "Into the West" and mostly felt digust and embarassment at the whole Manifest Destiny ideology which still colors US policies, both domestic and foreign.

Btw; I am a complex hybrid, both genetic and ethnic. My ancestors obviously got along quite well together (mostly).

Yes , I agree that we need to "get over It"; but, not by "glossing over It".

The US is still operating under the current version of Manifest Destiny ala the Bush Doctrine.

And?  I hate to say it, but every country in the world wants to be better off next year than they are this year.  That's just human nature.

In the wild it's called natural selection.  The vigorous and healthy will live on and the weak fall by the wayside.

Forgive me if I want my nation to be one of the survivors.