Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...

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lvlastermind

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Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« on: December 30, 2008, 12:33:40 AM »
(I probably should have posted this here so I decided to move it to the debate section...)


This is my first time to this site and after briefly glancing over the topics and concluding that people were actually serious about this notion of FET I took it upon myself to relieve FEers of their agony and finally put this to rest.  Your answer to the horizon "phenomenon" with "bendy light" commonly known and depicted by REers as a sail at a distance in the ocean appearing to slowly curve with the earth is preposterous at best.  I am not here to belittle because I probably will not convert any of you but I only wish to show you that your own theory is wrong.  What that in mind...

Why "bendy light" is in err...

You claim that light bends up and this results in the horizon phenomenon.  We can both agree on the fact that if you were to stand on a very tall mountain you can see a further distance than if you are standing on the ground.  Next we can both agree that if you are standing on a tall mountain versus standing on the ground you can see a fuller view of the object.  Next we can both agree that the diffraction of light will cause a point source to spread out.  From here we can agree that light is spreading.  Next we can agree that the ratio of light is reaching you at a distance from a point source but just more spread out (This can easily be proven by shining a flashlight on a wall and slowly stepping back and you will see it get bigger).  But the next jump is where your flaw is.  So you claim that light bends up.  For the sake of argument we will assume the Earth is flat.  And also, for the sake of argument, we will assume you are looking at the sail of a ship at a great distance away.  If the Earth is flat and you stand at a distance from the sail and light bends up then yes it will cause a similar horizon phenomenon.  BUT, if you were to stand on a very tall mountain and were looking at the sail from a great distance then you would see the exact same thing as if you were standing on the ground.  You would not see a more full view of the sail.  And this is would be exactly because light is "bending up."  If light is bending up, and light is spreading in an equal ratio, then the exact same amount of light that is bending up from you standing on the ground versus standing on a very tall object would reach your eye.  This would result in you seeing the exact same thing as you saw on the ground which is truly not the case.  Furthermore, if light is "bending up" then it would be possible to go so high that you wouldn't be able to see the object at all.  Even with the most powerful telescope ever created.  This would be because you are "above" where the light has bent to and thus no light can reach your eye.  And this is also truly not the case.  I challenge all you FEers to draw a picture with your "bendy light" and what happens when you change elevation and you will find that I am correct.  I hope this finally puts to rest this absurd notion of a flat earth.

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Raist

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2008, 01:41:56 AM »
"If light is bending up, and light is spreading in an equal ratio, then the exact same amount of light that is bending up from you standing on the ground versus standing on a very tall object would reach your eye.  This would result in you seeing the exact same thing as you saw on the ground which is truly not the case. "


This is where all logic breaks down and the assumption is blindly inserted with no relevant facts.


Please do not break your chain of logic 4 sentences before you get to a point. It tends to make it a rather big assumption.

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lvlastermind

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2008, 01:59:44 AM »
"If light is bending up, and light is spreading in an equal ratio, then the exact same amount of light that is bending up from you standing on the ground versus standing on a very tall object would reach your eye.  This would result in you seeing the exact same thing as you saw on the ground which is truly not the case. "


This is where all logic breaks down and the assumption is blindly inserted with no relevant facts.


Please do not break your chain of logic 4 sentences before you get to a point. It tends to make it a rather big assumption.

This is not a "break in logic" - as you so kindly put it - it is an axiom.  Just for the sake of argument, we will say you are right and that you wouldn't see the same thing (which in reality you would and you are wrong).  Then there is no argument that can disprove that if you were to go to a very high distance that you would see no sail at all because no light would NOT reach your eye.  Any child with a pencil and paper could draw this and come to the same conclusion.

All of this can so easily be solved with one drawing.  Here's what you have to do...

Draw a person standing on the ground and light bending from a sail very far away on a flat earth.  Now draw a guy at the same horizontal distance but greater vertical distance away from the sail.  Now draw your bending light rays and watch as the same ratio of light reaches your observer.  This is because your "bendy light" theory assumes an absolute reference frame from a point source.  To put it in laymen terms... Because light always is curving toward your point source and away from your observer then your point source must be the absolute reference frame completely independent of the observer's motion or position (look at the picture in your FAQ).  I'm not sure how highly you regard Einstein's General Theory of Relativity (even though your FAQ seems to reference it on many occasion), but Einstein disproved absolute reference frames.  Even if you disregard this statement, your theory of "bendy light" based on your FAQ depicts different time zones being determined by the bending light of the sun and NOT upon the the discrepancy in reference frames and thus... depicts the sun as the absolute frame of reference.

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Raist

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2008, 06:41:02 AM »
"If light is bending up, and light is spreading in an equal ratio, then the exact same amount of light that is bending up from you standing on the ground versus standing on a very tall object would reach your eye.  This would result in you seeing the exact same thing as you saw on the ground which is truly not the case. "


This is where all logic breaks down and the assumption is blindly inserted with no relevant facts.


Please do not break your chain of logic 4 sentences before you get to a point. It tends to make it a rather big assumption.

This is not a "break in logic" - as you so kindly put it - it is an axiom.  Just for the sake of argument, we will say you are right and that you wouldn't see the same thing (which in reality you would and you are wrong). 

It is not an axiom. You made an assumption about how light works, then called me wrong.


Your name looks like it means level mastermind, but you forgot the M. You failed at being clever in your username. You have down syndrome.


Am I doing your sort of logic right? Oh btw, the last one is an axiom, everyone knows it.


(why did you make a step by step logical progression, then just jump some steps to get to a fact that "everyone knows"?)

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Jack

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2008, 01:43:05 PM »
His "lvl" is M.

Draw a person standing on the ground and light bending from a sail very far away on a flat earth.  Now draw a guy at the same horizontal distance but greater vertical distance away from the sail.  Now draw your bending light rays and watch as the same ratio of light reaches your observer.  This is because your "bendy light" theory assumes an absolute reference frame from a point source.  To put it in laymen terms... Because light always is curving toward your point source and away from your observer then your point source must be the absolute reference frame completely independent of the observer's motion or position (look at the picture in your FAQ).  I'm not sure how highly you regard Einstein's General Theory of Relativity (even though your FAQ seems to reference it on many occasion), but Einstein disproved absolute reference frames.  Even if you disregard this statement, your theory of "bendy light" based on your FAQ depicts different time zones being determined by the bending light of the sun and NOT upon the the discrepancy in reference frames and thus... depicts the sun as the absolute frame of reference.
It has nothing to do with absolute frame of reference. The picture is just a demonstration of how light bending works in FE. You may as well say the picture is taken from an outside inertial observer's frame of reference.

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grogberries

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2008, 10:00:09 PM »
I think the why it's so hard to have a discussion on bendy light is because it's so loosely defined. After existing in this forum for a generous period of time, I still have no clue what bendy light is except it is used to defend FET when ever it is contradicted. Particularly it seems more to shun experience by people who can see with out any clear explanation or calculation. I don't know if Bendy Light would exist if there was not RET to question FET.
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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2009, 11:29:40 AM »
LOL, that guy contradicting lvlastermind is an idiot, instead of making an argument based on intelligent design you just simply call him stupid, which I find funny because this is usually the behavior of someone who doesn't know what he is talking about, what I find funny is that your henry light model shows light bending for no apparent reason at all, light can only be refracted of does not bend, the only time bent light is observed is when light passes close to the event horizon of a black hole, but this is not light bending but rather an effect of bent space and light is simply following the contour of space.  Also if light bent in the atmosphere as claimed it would b impossible to determine anything position and everything at a great distance would b distorted in shape, and still there is no explanation as to why you claim light bends in the atmosphere

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Raist

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2009, 01:26:30 PM »
LOL, that guy contradicting lvlastermind is an idiot, instead of making an argument based on intelligent design you just simply call him stupid, which I find funny because this is usually the behavior of someone who doesn't know what he is talking about, what I find funny is that your henry light model shows light bending for no apparent reason at all, light can only be refracted of does not bend, the only time bent light is observed is when light passes close to the event horizon of a black hole, but this is not light bending but rather an effect of bent space and light is simply following the contour of space.  Also if light bent in the atmosphere as claimed it would b impossible to determine anything position and everything at a great distance would b distorted in shape, and still there is no explanation as to why you claim light bends in the atmosphere

Also light bends when transitioning from hot to cold, or through objects like a magnifying glass.

I called him an idiot because all he was doing was making a baseless claim and pretending it was a logical procession.

If everything isn't distorted in shape, why do objects disappear?

Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2009, 01:43:35 PM »
you have a gross conceptual error here, first of temperature has no effect on light, only matter does, also light is not bent it is refracted, this is a huge difference, and I think you should actually read up a little more on physics and quantum mechanics, I think you'll find it to b very interesting as well as quite informative.  It is not possible for em radiation to be b bent since em rad does not have a charge or mass, it can only b refracted, this actually occurs through several different processes the most common of which being the photoelectric effect.

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Raist

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2009, 01:47:09 PM »
you have a gross conceptual error here, first of temperature has no effect on light, only matter does, also light is not bent it is refracted, this is a huge difference,

We are simply using the terms interchangeably.

Do you understand temperature? It is the average kinetic energy in a substance. Light is also effected by gravitation and multiple other factors. Your semantics are pointless.



Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2009, 02:18:10 PM »
it's the average molecular kinetic energy of a substance, since light is not composed of atoms or molecules it is not subject to a change in temperature and is I my affected by the density of matter that it passes through, therefore the speed of light is slightly faster through empty space than it is through a gas, also bending and refraction are incredibly different and are not interchangeable by any means, and since FE theory relies on bent light not refracted light in order for the theory work, and again do some reading before talking to me again you nitwit, I'm a nuclear engineer, I know more about radiation than u prolly ever will.  By the way light is a form of em radiation.

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Raist

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2009, 02:21:03 PM »
it's the average molecular kinetic energy of a substance, since light is not composed of atoms or molecules it is not subject to a change in temperature \
DUH?

Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2009, 03:27:47 PM »
Duh indeed, thAt means that you are wrong! 

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Raist

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2009, 04:10:55 PM »
Duh indeed, thAt means that you are wrong! 

Or that you misunderstood me and are an idiot....

Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2009, 04:23:13 PM »
No actually you are an idiot, you said light can be. Entire from a change in temperature you dumbshit, you have no idea what the fuck u are talking about, you have no concept of electromagnetic radiation, or of the physical world or anything in it, u call me an idiot because you are confused, I'm not the lunatic that has a ridiculous belief in a global conspiracy and belives that the earth is shaped like a right circular cylinder, lmao, what a joke, you people have way too much faith in the abilities of our world governments. 

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Raist

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2009, 04:51:13 PM »
No actually you are an idiot, you said light can be. Entire from a change in temperature you dumbshit,

If you knew what temperature meant, you would know I in no way meant a photon could change it. I meant changing from air of one temperature to another. Have you ever seen a mirage?

Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2009, 04:58:46 PM »
Well should have states that to begin with, and I know what temperature means to a spectacular degree considering my job has an awful lot to do with thermal dynamics, but the temperature has nothing to do with the refraction of the light, it's all about the density of the substance it passes through, cold air is more dense than hot air so I agree it will refract and diffuse light differently, but the issue isn't light refraction it's whether the atmosphere or the earths gravity could bend light like in the fe model, which it can't because light does not bend, also in the fe model there is no actual gravity it is simulated by acceleration, which a constant acceleration ratebis impossible, so the whole theory is self is bunked. 

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Raist

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2009, 05:03:04 PM »
Well should have states that to begin with, and I know what temperature means to a spectacular degree

Well then why did you assume I was wrong? What made you believe I meant anything other than temperature differences in the substance when I mentioned temperature? Or were you assuming I'm stupid because I contradicted someone that you agreed with even though their post was entirely flawed and devoid of logic?

Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2009, 05:12:52 PM »
Your still avoiding the main issue, and actually lvlasterminds statement was very thought out and concisenin argument, but instead of analysing the statement and making a retort you simply ignore what he wrote and called it illogical, this is because you disagreed with his statent but didn't have the knowledge to combat him, so yes I still think your stupid because you are foolish enough to believe that light can bend simply to suit your needs

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Raist

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2009, 05:23:51 PM »
I did refute his argument, he made all these steps, then jumped in logic to a ridiculous conclusion. There is no reason the objects would disappear from the top down.

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lvlastermind

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2009, 07:01:24 PM »

Raist:

"It is not an axiom. You made an assumption about how light works, then called me wrong.


Your name looks like it means level mastermind, but you forgot the M. You failed at being clever in your username. You have down syndrome.


Am I doing your sort of logic right? Oh btw, the last one is an axiom, everyone knows it.


(why did you make a step by step logical progression, then just jump some steps to get to a fact that "everyone knows"?)"


-While your disdain and hate is amusing, your ignorance to consider that you may be wrong is scary to saw the least. 


"Also light bends when transitioning from hot to cold, or through objects like a magnifying glass.

I called him an idiot because all he was doing was making a baseless claim and pretending it was a logical procession.

If everything isn't distorted in shape, why do objects disappear?"


-When light travels from one substance or fluid (air is a fluid as well as liquids) to another its apparent bending is due to the differences in indexes of refractions.  This apparent bending is a result of the absorption and re-emission of light on a molecular level.  Light is energy.  This is inherit and unfeigned and needs no argument.  Objects that are cold have a potential to absorb more energy than objects that are warm.  This is also unquestionable.  When light travels from one substance or fluid to another then absorption rates change.  Cold objects "hold on to" the energy for a longer duration of time and then release it again.  Because light travels at a constant velocity of c then it cannot be re-emitted in a strait line because this would disprove light having a constant velocity.  Therefor light must be re-emitted at an angle to traverse a distance in the same amount of time as it would a distance in another substance - as stipulated by the value of c.  Because the velocity of light doesn't change, its path must change when going from a cold object to a warm one or vise versa to maintain the value of c while agreeing with cold/warm absorption rates.

-Light's apparent bending when it traverses a magnifying glass is due to a difference in molecular density.  When density changes then absorption/re-emission rates also change because of the proximity of the molecules.  This can easily be proven with a glass of various density.  If you have a solid piece of glass and its density changes from a control of 1 to 2 evenly then light will appear to bend.  If you have two pieces of glass at the same temperature that occupy the same volume but differ only in density then light will "bend" at different angles because light will be absorbed and re-emitted at a different rate.  To put it more simply, dense objects absorb and re-emit light slower than less dense objects because there is a greater number of molecules that absorb the light.  Thus, one would expect light to bend more in dense objects than less dense ones; and eventually not bend at all when traversing in a vacuum. 

-Furthermore, this apparent bending of light is also a result of the wave-particle duality of light.  Light is mysterious and we do not have all the answers but we do have the answers to disprove a flat earth.  As a scientist, you cannot say anything is absolute or any theory is 100% true.  This would defeat the purpose of being a scientist.  Therefore, I cannot morally dismiss that there is a 1 in a google chance that I may be wrong but overwhelming experimental results all confirm that I am right.

-Light has a wave-particle duality.... What does this mean?  It means that we cannot say for sure that light travels in a wave or a particle.  Sometimes it acts like a wave and sometimes it acts like a particle.  The process I described above of absorption and re-emission rates satisfies the particle theory.  How can we satisfy the wave theory?  Wave theory is satisfied through the superposition principle of waves.  This is the theory that says that when a crest meets a crest of equal amplitude then they add to twice the wavelength.  When a crest meets a trough they annihilate.  This can easily be proven with double slit interference and you can do it yourself at home with a flashlight.  When a wave travels from one substance or fluid with a certain density to another then its path changes.  This can be proven by listening to the radio outside of a pool and then jumping in the pool and the sound from the radio will appear distorted.  How does this apply to light?  When light (wave theory) traverses from one density to another its path changes because the material density changes and thus accounts for the apparent bending.

-Other notes on light that disprove FE "bendy light" theory-

-The FE theory of light assumes that light is bending away from the observer and toward the source.  Thus it is traveling in an arc.  An arc is a portion of a circle...  This would mean that eventually the light would bend back in on itself and eventually complete the circle and return to the source again.  That would mean that we would NOT be able to see light from distant objects because it would bend back in on itself before it reached the observer's eye and thus we would not be able to see the object at all.  This would account for the "top-down" disappearance that I described originally and you coined (even though I find that top-down is an inaccurate description).
-FE theory says that the sun is some 200 miles away.  This is an extremely violent bend for light to take over a 200 mile distance to control the entire day and night cycle.  If this were the case then objects 200 miles away would appear extremely distorted and nearly unresolvable. 
-The theory for the seasons, as described by REers, is the tilt of the Earth.  The tilt of the earth accounts for the seasons because of the angle of incidence light makes with the ground.  Here is a simple experiment to explain it...  Take a flashlight and a piece of paper.  Put the flashlight and paper at a fixed distance away.  Now shine the light so its rays are normal to the paper and you will see a defined circle.  Now tilt the paper and you will see somewhat of an ellipse.  Because the same about of light is being emitted from the flashlight in both cases - when the rays hit the paper that is normal to the light it is more concentrated.  When the rays hit the paper that is tilted they are spread out and less concentrated.  Remembering that light is energy we can conclude that the energy is more and less concentrated depending on the angle of incidence.  Thus when the northern hemisphere is tilted toward the sun the light rays are more direct and we receive more sunlight and more energy and we have longer days and summer.  When the northern hemisphere is tilted away from the sun the light rays are less direct and we receive less sunlight and less energy and we have shorter days and winter.

-While I think it is noble to support an idea that no one else supports I find it foolish to completely disregard all experimental evidence, some of which you can do yourself, as a NASA conspiracy.  Take this with a grain of salt and I urge you to challenge not only the ethics of NASA, but of other FEers.  Do not brainwash yourself and let them trap your mind.

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Raist

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2009, 07:03:25 PM »
Just so you know I'm not reading that mass of text.

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lvlastermind

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2009, 07:11:20 PM »
Just so you know I'm not reading that mass of text.

That's fine... I wouldn't expect someone like you to read it (or even read at all).  Maybe some other FEer will take the time to acknowledge the overwhelming possibility that they are wrong and look at their theory from another point of view.

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Raist

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2009, 09:27:20 PM »
Just so you know I'm not reading that mass of text.

That's fine... I wouldn't expect someone like you to read it (or even read at all).  Maybe some other FEer will take the time to acknowledge the overwhelming possibility that they are wrong and look at their theory from another point of view.

I have a life, and was in between seeing my girlfriend and going to hang out with a friend. Sparing the time to read that is pointless, and breaking it down bit by bit and answering would take twice that time. At one time I probably would have, but not right now.

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lvlastermind

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2009, 10:57:25 PM »
Is there no one on the FE forum to defend their own theory?...

Tom?

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No argument?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2009, 06:20:40 AM »
Is there no one on the FE forum to defend their own theory?...

Tom?

ﮎingulaЯiτy?

No argument?


Once you mentioned "Light is mysterious and we do not have all the answers" all of your contentions regarding the properties and behavior of light went right out the window.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 06:34:03 AM by Tom Bishop »

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lvlastermind

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2009, 09:15:08 AM »
So in other words, you cannot refute...

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2009, 10:28:29 AM »
ﮎingulaЯiτy?

Sorry, I got here late. I didn't even know that this thread existed until now. There is an abundance of RE'ers and a shortage of FE'ers so patience is necessary on this site.
...In any case, I'm having trouble understanding your first post. Can you produce a diagram? It doesn't have to be fancy, just clear.  :-\
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 10:30:57 AM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Robbyj

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2009, 11:29:27 PM »
Bendy light died with Robosteve.
Why justify an illegitimate attack with a legitimate response?

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Perfect Circle

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Re: Why "bendy light" theory is wrong...
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2009, 11:34:59 PM »
Bendy light died with Robosteve.
Do you realize that bendy light is the only thing that can make FET possible besides some existential BS?
Like the sun, the stars are also expanding and contracting their diameter as they spin around the hub every six months.