Poll

Is gun control an effective means of reducing violent crime

Yes.  People cannot be trusted with guns for any reason.  If the population is not armed, then there are less guns in the hands of criminals.  As a result there will be less violent crime
Yes.  But only for gun crimes, it will have no effect on other types of violent crimes
Yes and no.  It may reduce crimes commited with guns, but criminal will then resort to other weapons such as knives.  Other violent crimes will increase
No.  Criminals will get guns despite the law, it will have no effect on crime
No.  Not only will criminals ignore this law and get guns illegally, but such laws will make for easier victims since they will not be armed.  Crime rates will increase

Gun Control

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Marcus Aurelius

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Gun Control
« on: December 29, 2008, 08:07:02 AM »
In the U.S. at least, our constitution guarantees the right of the people to keep and bear arms for lawful purposes.  Such as self defense, sport, and forming militias.  Though in practice this is not honored in many states.  Other countries do not allow citizens to own firearms at all.

What are you views on this?  What do you believe are the advantages of gun control, disadvantages.  How far should it go?

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2008, 09:38:07 AM »
Where exactly do you live so I can let my redneck gun toting Budweiser drinking friends know?

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Dead Kangaroo

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2008, 09:53:51 AM »
Every American should have their own government funded nuke, there's probably enough to cover a 20th of the country already.

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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2008, 09:54:35 AM »
Ew, Budweiser. I don't know what American urine tastes like, but a guy pissed in our cistern once, the water tasted like Bud Light. And guns are the one shining light in the dark age of Darwinian evolution created by Health & Safety and the civil court.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2008, 10:09:10 AM »
back to topic, who believes that gun control is an effective method of reducing crime, who does not?  What are the gun laws in some other countries.  We do not have to limit the discussion to the U.S. alone.

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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2008, 10:40:46 AM »
Guns are illegal to have on your person, as with all offensive weapons, but you can own one with an FAC or shotgun license.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Dead Kangaroo

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2008, 10:56:10 AM »
back to topic, who believes that gun control is an effective method of reducing crime, who does not?  What are the gun laws in some other countries.  We do not have to limit the discussion to the U.S. alone.
Gun control won't solve crime rate, it'll prevent some victims from being shot but it just means the stabbings bolt/arrow shootings etc, etc, will rise. Taking a specific weapon away from a nasty individual doesn't turn them into tree hugging balls of fluff.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2008, 11:27:18 AM »
back to topic, who believes that gun control is an effective method of reducing crime, who does not?  What are the gun laws in some other countries.  We do not have to limit the discussion to the U.S. alone.
Gun control won't solve crime rate, it'll prevent some victims from being shot but it just means the stabbings bolt/arrow shootings etc, etc, will rise. Taking a specific weapon away from a nasty individual doesn't turn them into tree hugging balls of fluff.

I agree, there has been no reliable statistical data I have seen that shows gun control helping with violent crime.

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Dead Kangaroo

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2008, 11:54:49 AM »
The uk has less shootings due to it's gun control, however it's blade crime rate is ridiculously high.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2008, 12:33:25 PM »
The uk has less shootings due to it's gun control, however it's blade crime rate is ridiculously high.

I disagree to the first part of your statement, in England and Canada their murder rates were already low before their gun control laws were passed. Thus, their restrictive laws cannot be credited with lowering their crime rates. And the murder rates in England, Canada, and Japan have risen tremendously since passing their gun control laws.


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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2008, 12:56:51 PM »
An ugly gangland dispute is always going to be ugly whether it's fought with fists and knives or guns. There are just less people caught in the crossfire with knives/fists.

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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2008, 01:28:42 PM »
And the thing about it is that you're looking at knife crime, including wounding, intent to wound and even possession. and gun crime, which seems only to involve actual killings. I'd rather have a one in a hundred chance of being stabbed than a one in a thousand chance of getting a Mac-10 burst to the face.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2008, 01:44:38 PM »
And the thing about it is that you're looking at knife crime, including wounding, intent to wound and even possession. and gun crime, which seems only to involve actual killings. I'd rather have a one in a hundred chance of being stabbed than a one in a thousand chance of getting a Mac-10 burst to the face.

If I am getting shot at with a Mac-10, I would prefer to have something to shoot back with(preferably something with a lot better control than a Mac-10).  But that goes with any weapon.


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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2008, 01:47:12 PM »
That's not the point, you fool! It's not like the government hands out guns to criminals then tells the innocent people to piss off, nobody has a gun.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2008, 01:54:00 PM »
An ugly gangland dispute is always going to be ugly whether it's fought with fists and knives or guns. There are just less people caught in the crossfire with knives/fists.

The one downside to guns is accidental deaths, particularly with children, however it is still relatively rare compared to other household items that could kill your child, such as household cleaners.  Should we make them illegal too?

Collateral damage is another downside, however gun control laws have never been shown to prevent gangs and criminals from getting guns.  Criminals by definition break the law, therefore if the law says they can't get a gun, they are going to do it anyway.

A Justice Department survey of handgun predators showed that 93% had obtained their most recent guns "off-the-record."
-Department of Justice, "Survey of Incarcerated Felons," p. 36.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2008, 01:55:16 PM »
That's not the point, you fool! It's not like the government hands out guns to criminals then tells the innocent people to piss off, nobody has a gun.

How do they enforce that?  I guess it would be easier for the UK because they are an island, but won't criminals ignore those laws and find a way to get a gun?

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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2008, 01:57:56 PM »
No, we enforce the law here. What do you do?
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2008, 02:07:59 PM »
No, we enforce the law here. What do you do?

How do they enforce this?

Looks like they are not doing a good job.  Your from the UK right?  Just did a quick peak, I believe the UK began their strict enforcement in 97 or 98.  Here are some statistics:

http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF05.htm

gun crimes under total offenses generally have gone up since 97, with a bit of a dip in 07.  Nothing about this data indicates that UKs gun control has stopped criminals from getting guns.

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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2008, 03:06:41 PM »
That counts people arrested for the offences, not the offences themselves. All that this proves is that stricter enforcement leads to greater arrest rates.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2008, 03:18:44 PM »
And the thing about it is that you're looking at knife crime, including wounding, intent to wound and even possession. and gun crime, which seems only to involve actual killings. I'd rather have a one in a hundred chance of being stabbed than a one in a thousand chance of getting a Mac-10 burst to the face.

If I am getting shot at with a Mac-10, I would prefer to have something to shoot back with(preferably something with a lot better control than a Mac-10).  But that goes with any weapon.

It doesn't matter if you've got an anti-tank gun. If the other guy shoots first and hits you're fooked.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2008, 03:31:28 PM »
That counts people arrested for the offences, not the offences themselves. All that this proves is that stricter enforcement leads to greater arrest rates.

Huh?  According to their source that data is for reported offenses, not arrests or convictions.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2008, 03:38:04 PM »
And the thing about it is that you're looking at knife crime, including wounding, intent to wound and even possession. and gun crime, which seems only to involve actual killings. I'd rather have a one in a hundred chance of being stabbed than a one in a thousand chance of getting a Mac-10 burst to the face.

If I am getting shot at with a Mac-10, I would prefer to have something to shoot back with(preferably something with a lot better control than a Mac-10).  But that goes with any weapon.

It doesn't matter if you've got an anti-tank gun. If the other guy shoots first and hits you're fooked.

Your chances are much worse if you are not armed though.  Statistics in the US show that with a 92 percent of all defensive uses of firearms successfully thwart the crime without a shot being fired.  Just the mere sight of a gun will send the majority of criminals running the other way.  Criminals tend to target victims who can't fight back, they are just as afraid of getting shot as you are.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2008, 03:47:58 PM »
OMFG!!

Recent studies have found people die in car crashes!


OUTLAW cars immediately!!

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cbarnett97

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2008, 03:48:26 PM »
In La they passed a law that made it a justifiable homicide to shhot someone who tries to carjack you. Just by passing the law carjackings dropped by something like 80%. then after someone shot a carjacker and the law was upheld carjackings dropped a whole bunch more(forget the percentage) and also some of the cities with the highest crime rates in the country have the most restrictive gun laws around and states with the lowest crime rates in the state have the most lax laws.
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

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cbarnett97

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2008, 03:52:46 PM »
40 Reasons For Gun Control

1. Banning guns works, which is why New York, DC, & Chicago cops need guns.

2. Washington DC's low murder rate of 69 per 100,000 is due to strict gun control,
and Indianapolis' high murder rate of 9 per 100,000 is due to the lack of gun control.

3. Statistics showing high murder rates justify gun control but statistics showing
increasing murder rates after gun control are "just statistics."

4. The Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban, both of which went into effect in
1994 are responsible for the decrease in violent crime rates, which have been declining
since 1991.

5. We must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a shooting spree
at any time and anyone who would own a gun out of fear of such a lunatic is paranoid.

6. The more helpless you are the safer you are from criminals.

7. An intruder will be incapacitated by tear gas or oven spray, but if shot with
a .357 Magnum will get angry and kill you.

8. A woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman with a smoking gun
and a dead rapist at her feet.

9. When confronted by violent criminals, you should "put up no defense- give
them what they want, or run" (Handgun Control Inc. Chairman Pete Shields, Guns
Don't Die - People Do, 1981, p.125).

10. The New England Journal of Medicine is filled with expert advice about guns;
just like Guns & Ammo has some excellent treatises on heart surgery.

11. One should consult an automotive engineer for safer seatbelts, a civil engineer
for a better bridge, a surgeon for internal medicine, a computer programmer for
hard drive problems, and Sarah Brady for firearms expertise.

12. The 2nd Amendment, ratified in 1787, refers to the National Guard, which was
created 130 years later, in 1917.

13. The National Guard, federally funded, with bases on federal land, using federally-owned
weapons vehicles buildings and uniforms, punishing trespassers under federal law,
is a "state" militia.

14. These phrases: "right of the people peaceably to assemble," "right
of the people to be secure in their homes," "enumerations herein of certain
rights shall not be construed to disparage others retained by the people,"
and "The powers not delegated herein are reserved to the states respectively,
and to the people" all refer to individuals, but "the right of the people
to keep and bear arm" refers to the state.

15. "The Constitution is strong and will never change." But we should
ban and seize all guns thereby violating the 2nd, 4th, and 5thAmendments to that
Constitution.

16. Rifles and handguns aren't necessary to national defense! Of course, the army
has hundreds of thousands of them.

17. Private citizens shouldn't have handguns, because they aren't "military
weapons", but private citizens shouldn't have "assault rifles", because
they are military weapons.

18. In spite of waiting periods, background checks, finger printing, government
forms, etc., guns today are too readily available, which is responsible for recent
school shootings. In the 1940's, 1950's and1960's, anyone could buy guns at hardware
stores, army surplus stores, gas stations, variety stores, Sears mail order, no
waiting, no background check, no fingerprints, no government forms and there were
no school shootings.

19. The NRA's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign about kids handling
guns is propaganda, but the anti-gun lobby's attempt to run a "don't touch"
campaign is responsible social activity.

20. Guns are so complex that special training is necessary to use them properly,
and so simple to use that they make murder easy.

21. A handgun, with up to 4 controls, is far too complex for the typical adult to
learn to use, as opposed to an automobile that only has 20.

22. Women are just as intelligent and capable as men but a woman with a gun is "an
accident waiting to happen" and gun makers' advertisements aimed at women are
"preying on their fears."

23. Ordinary people in the presence of guns turn into slaughtering butchers but
revert to normal when the weapon is removed.

24. Guns cause violence, which is why there are so many mass killings at gun shows.

25. A majority of the population supports gun control, just like a majority of the
population supported owning slaves.

26. Any self-loading small arm can legitimately be considered to be a "weapon
of mass destruction" or an "assault weapon."

27. Most people can't be trusted, so we should have laws against guns, which most
people will abide by because they can be trusted.

28. The right of Internet pornographers to exist cannot be questioned because it
is constitutionally protected by the Bill of Rights, but the use of handguns for
self defense is not really protected by the Bill of Rights.

29. Free speech entitles one to own newspapers, transmitters, computers, and typewriters,
but self-defense only justifies bare hands.

30. The ACLU is good because it uncompromisingly defends certain parts of the Constitution,
and the NRA is bad, because it defends other parts of the Constitution.

31. Charlton Heston, a movie actor and past president of the NRA is a cheap lunatic who
should be ignored, but Michael Douglas, a movie actor as a representative of Handgun
Control, Inc. is an ambassador for peace who is entitled to an audience at the UN
arms control summit.

32. Police operate with backup within groups, which is why they need larger capacity
pistol magazines than do "civilians" who must face criminals alone and
therefore need less ammunition.

33. We should ban "Saturday Night Specials" and other inexpensive guns
because it's not fair that poor people have access to guns too.

34. Police officers have some special Jedi-like mastery over hand guns that private
citizens can never hope to obtain.

35. Private citizens don't need a gun for self-protection because the police are
there to protect them even though the Supreme Court says the police are not responsible
for their protection.

36. Citizens don't need to carry a gun for personal protection but police chiefs,
who are desk-bound administrators who work in a building filled with cops, need
a gun.

37. "Assault weapons" have no purpose other than to kill large numbers
of people. The police need assault weapons. You do not.

38. When Microsoft pressures its distributors to give Microsoft preferential promotion,
that's bad; but when the Federal government pressures cities to buy guns only from
Smith & Wesson, that's good.

39. Trigger locks do not interfere with the ability to use a gun for defensive purposes,
which is why you see police officers with one on their duty weapon.

40. Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "keep guns out of the wrong hands."
Guess what? You have the wrong hands.

for more info on number 35 go here
http://home.absolute.net/xode/nwofraud/obvious_fraud/protectnscam.htm
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 03:57:30 PM by cbarnett97 »
Only 2 things are infinite the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2008, 04:04:47 PM »
34 made me rofl

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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2008, 04:09:19 PM »
This Jedi-like mastery, do you mean training? And I'd like a source for all of these statistics, anyone can push buttons.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2008, 04:20:32 PM »
This Jedi-like mastery, do you mean training? And I'd like a source for all of these statistics, anyone can push buttons.

The source for the statistics I provided is a pdf linked at the bottom of the webpage.  Most of what cbarnett posted is commentary.

As for the jedi thing, gun control advocates have stated before that only full police or military training makes you qualified to use a gun.  This is very untrue, you should see my 9 year old cousin handle a glock better than most police officers.  To be honest you can learn all you need to know about using a particular gun in about 15 minutes, the rest is development of skill.


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General Douchebag

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2008, 04:24:31 PM »
I know about the training thing, I can handle a rifle better than many military I've seen. In the UK you can own a gun with a license, you just can't carry it around. Would you let your cousin carry this Glock in his pocket?
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2008, 04:28:39 PM »
I know about the training thing, I can handle a rifle better than many military I've seen. In the UK you can own a gun with a license, you just can't carry it around. Would you let your cousin carry this Glock in his pocket?

When she is a little older sure.  I just wanted to show that she is skillful with a gun, more so than me.  I have no fear of law abiding citizens carrying concealed weapons.  Violent criminals (who should be in jail anyhow) should not.