Burden of Proof

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FETftw

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2008, 09:29:02 AM »
Saying all the NASA stuff was made up is foolish. It's like saying the CERN doesn't exist either nor the LHC.
inferring that you blindly believe in everything nasa says it has done is foolish.
Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be.

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Snaaaaake

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2008, 12:37:41 PM »
Saying all the NASA stuff was made up is foolish. It's like saying the CERN doesn't exist either nor the LHC.
inferring that you blindly believe in everything nasa says it has done is foolish.

Ignoring all proof suggesting of a round Earth is foolish.
We told you to go to rehab, but you were all like "no, no, no!" ::)

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svenanders

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2008, 01:06:20 PM »
Saying all the NASA stuff was made up is foolish. It's like saying the CERN doesn't exist either nor the LHC.
inferring that you blindly believe in everything nasa says it has done is foolish.

Ignoring all proof suggesting of a round Earth is foolish.

I totally agree.

The earth is round! If you believe otherwise, you're either:

a) Totally ignorant.
b) Retarded
c) Full of nice, warm and jummy horse droppings!  ;D

This is my first post here, and I would like to say hello to all. Hi all! How's the weather?

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FETftw

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2008, 01:11:19 PM »
Saying all the NASA stuff was made up is foolish. It's like saying the CERN doesn't exist either nor the LHC.
inferring that you blindly believe in everything nasa says it has done is foolish.

Ignoring all proof suggesting of a round Earth is foolish.
so im supposed to ignore the proof i see when i look out my window?
Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be.

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FETftw

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2008, 01:13:45 PM »
Saying all the NASA stuff was made up is foolish. It's like saying the CERN doesn't exist either nor the LHC.
inferring that you blindly believe in everything nasa says it has done is foolish.

Ignoring all proof suggesting of a round Earth is foolish.

I totally agree.

The earth is round! If you believe otherwise, you're either:

a) Totally ignorant.
b) Retarded
c) Full of nice, warm and jummy horse droppings!  ;D

This is my first post here, and I would like to say hello to all. Hi all! How's the weather?
welcome - now .
Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be.

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Snaaaaake

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2008, 02:09:08 PM »
Saying all the NASA stuff was made up is foolish. It's like saying the CERN doesn't exist either nor the LHC.
inferring that you blindly believe in everything nasa says it has done is foolish.

Ignoring all proof suggesting of a round Earth is foolish.
so im supposed to ignore the proof i see when i look out my window?

That's not proof. That's blind faith.
We told you to go to rehab, but you were all like "no, no, no!" ::)

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Parsifal

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2008, 02:41:28 PM »
This is my first post here

It's also your last. Goodbye.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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FETftw

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2008, 02:42:05 PM »
Saying all the NASA stuff was made up is foolish. It's like saying the CERN doesn't exist either nor the LHC.
inferring that you blindly believe in everything nasa says it has done is foolish.

Ignoring all proof suggesting of a round Earth is foolish.
so im supposed to ignore the proof i see when i look out my window?
looks like proof to me. :)
That's not proof. That's blind faith.
Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be.

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Snaaaaake

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2008, 03:08:07 PM »
Saying all the NASA stuff was made up is foolish. It's like saying the CERN doesn't exist either nor the LHC.
inferring that you blindly believe in everything nasa says it has done is foolish.

Ignoring all proof suggesting of a round Earth is foolish.
so im supposed to ignore the proof i see when i look out my window?
looks like proof to me. :)
That's not proof. That's blind faith.

How old are you again? 12?
We told you to go to rehab, but you were all like "no, no, no!" ::)

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FETftw

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2008, 04:21:06 PM »
so because i dont take your word for it and you have a different name for it - you call me a kid. hardly a way to convince me of your theory.
Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2008, 05:33:30 PM »
Someone please answer the OP.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Snaaaaake

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2008, 05:36:37 PM »
so because i dont take your word for it and you have a different name for it - you call me a kid. hardly a way to convince me of your theory.

No, it's because you act like a 12 year old.
We told you to go to rehab, but you were all like "no, no, no!" ::)

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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2008, 05:41:50 PM »
Someone please answer the OP.

Earlier today on another thread:
If i was saying that mickey mouse assasinated JFK, wouldn't i have to explian myself.

Only if you were attempting to convince someone else.  The FES is not out recruiting converts.  You came here, remember?

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FETftw

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2008, 06:08:03 PM »
so because i dont take your word for it and you have a different name for it - you call me a kid. hardly a way to convince me of your theory.

No, it's because you act like a 12 year old.
lol, w/e dude.
Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2008, 06:12:55 AM »
Earlier today on another thread:
If i was saying that mickey mouse assasinated JFK, wouldn't i have to explian myself.

Only if you were attempting to convince someone else.  The FES is not out recruiting converts.  You came here, remember?

I believe you misunderstood my post. I am not looking for FE'ers to convince me, nor do I believe that that is their intention. Similarly, I did not come here with the intention of convincing them of a Round Earth, (although it might be a consequence of discussions). I simply want to hear how they came to believe what they believe.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2008, 07:07:24 AM »
Found something interesting:

"In science, the burden of proof falls upon the claimant; and the more extraordinary a claim, the heavier is the burden of proof demanded. The true skeptic takes an agnostic position, one that says the claim is not proved rather than disproved. He asserts that the claimant has not borne the burden of proof and that science must continue to build its cognitive map of reality without incorporating the extraordinary claim as a new "fact." Since the true skeptic does not assert a claim, he has no burden to prove anything. He just goes on using the established theories of "conventional science" as usual. But if a critic asserts that there is evidence for disproof, that he has a negative hypothesis—saying, for instance, that a seeming psi result was actually due to an artifact—he is making a claim and therefore also has to bear a burden of proof."

– Zetetic Scholar, #12-13, 1987

"And when such claims are extraordinary, that is, revolutionary in their implications for established scientific generalizations already accumulated and verified, we must demand extraordinary proof." (This statement is often abbreviated to "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.")

– Editorial in The Zetetic (Vol. 1, No.1, Fall/Winter 1976, p 4)

_________________________

The guests on these forums are comprised mainly of RE'ers or 'agnostics' which take the positions of common knowledge and mainstream public science, and skeptical of all claims. This site's primary function promotes the 'fact' that the Earth is actually flat. This is a most extraordinary claim, regardless of whether or not you are trying to convert others to your view. It is your Zetetic Duty to ensure that your alleged facts have substantial evidence to support them.

The view that the Earth is not round (as opposed to flat) is also an extraordinary claim, (referred to as a negative hypothesis in the first quote) and also bears the burden of proof.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 07:23:18 AM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
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John Jackson

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2008, 09:53:29 PM »
The premise of burden of proof is really an old topic that most people will detest revisiting, but I plan to anyways. Perhaps approaching the question differently would help explain why we ask what we ask in simplistic proof form.

A.
Point 1: It is illogical to arrive at a conclusion without evidence to support the conclusion.
Point 2: You have come to a conclusion of a Flat Earth.
Point 3: If you use logic and reasoning you must have evidence.

I can see no reason why such evidence can't readily be shared with us, under such premises. I do not believe FE'rs are correct in suggesting the public supported and common view should disprove every deviant view, but that argument aside, is it a lack of evidence or laziness on your behalf that prevents FE'ers from presenting the reasons they side with FE?

B. This simplified proof also begs questions with 'the conspiracy'. You believe in it yet readily admit to not having witnessed a shred of evidence for it. The only reply I have ever seen suggests the conspiracy because it makes sense with FE. If this is the case, the logical structure is incomplete due to its dependence on part A of my post. The only other alternatives I see is that the conspiracy is purely faith-based or logic was once again again abandoned.

Even if you don't believe FE needs to prove itself, there is no reason not to satisfy the people asking for proof. I await your response.

Se ENaG.

[/thread]
Your mother.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2008, 11:06:32 PM »
Quote
The guests on these forums are comprised mainly of RE'ers or 'agnostics' which take the positions of common knowledge and mainstream public science, and skeptical of all claims. This site's primary function promotes the 'fact' that the Earth is actually flat. This is a most extraordinary claim, regardless of whether or not you are trying to convert others to your view. It is your Zetetic Duty to ensure that your alleged facts have substantial evidence to support them.

No. Your globe earth model is the extraordinary claim. I've never seen a Round Earth. No one here has seen a Round Earth. The only universal experience is that we live upon a plane.

Your claim that NASA can do all of these amazing things is also an extraordinary claim.

What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter straight up at 7 miles per second, and that NASA can do the impossible on a daily basis, explore the cosmos, and constantly wow the nation by landing a man on the moon and sending robots to mars; or is the simplest explanation that they really can't do all of that stuff?

The fact is that the only person here making extraordinary claims here is you. The burden is on you to prove your claims. It's not our job to disprove your claims and prove a negative. We don't need to try to prove that ghosts don't exist.

You're making the claims here. THE BURDEN IS ON YOU TO PROVE IT

The burden is on no one else but you and you alone to personally prove that the earth is a globe and that NASA can do all of the extraordinary things you claim they do.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 11:10:28 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2008, 11:13:25 PM »
The burden of you is to prove these things to us. You're the one making the claim. We're not. The simplest explanation is that NASA really can't do all of that stuff.

If two people are having a debate, should the burden of proof rest on the shoulders of the person who make the most complicated claim, or should the burden of proof rest on the shoulders of the person who makes the simplest and easily observable claim?

In a discussion on the existence of ghosts should the burden of proof be on the group mumbling "just because you can't see something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist," or should the burden of proof be on everyone else to prove that ghosts *don't* exist?

A company called Mollar International claims to have invented a flying car with safety comparable to a land vehicle, an outstanding performance of a 400 mile range, and sophisticated never before seen computer control. They claim that the Sky Car is ready to be mass produced if only they got a few more big investments. They've released a few videos of it hovering a short distance off the ground in test flights. Should the burden of proof be on the Moller proponents who are absolutely certain that all of Moller's claims are true, or should the burden of proof be on everyone else to prove that Moller's claims are *not* true?

So where's your proof for all of these sci-fi claims of yours?


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Snaaaaake

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2008, 04:29:53 AM »
The burden of you is to prove these things to us. You're the one making the claim. We're not. The simplest explanation is that NASA really can't do all of that stuff.

If two people are having a debate, should the burden of proof rest on the shoulders of the person who make the most complicated claim, or should the burden of proof rest on the shoulders of the person who makes the simplest and easily observable claim?

In a discussion on the existence of ghosts should the burden of proof be on the group mumbling "just because you can't see something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist," or should the burden of proof be on everyone else to prove that ghosts *don't* exist?

A company called Mollar International claims to have invented a flying car with safety comparable to a land vehicle, an outstanding performance of a 400 mile range, and sophisticated never before seen computer control. They claim that the Sky Car is ready to be mass produced if only they got a few more big investments. They've released a few videos of it hovering a short distance off the ground in test flights. Should the burden of proof be on the Moller proponents who are absolutely certain that all of Moller's claims are true, or should the burden of proof be on everyone else to prove that Moller's claims are *not* true?

So where's your proof for all of these sci-fi claims of yours?


Tom. First of all the burden of proof is competlely on FErs. You're the ones caliming the Earth is flat. I also realize you always say the BoP is on us so ou don't have to do anything. We know the Earth is round. The BoP always will be on the FErs to tell us it's flat. (which it isn't)
We told you to go to rehab, but you were all like "no, no, no!" ::)

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AmateurAstronomer

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #50 on: September 09, 2008, 04:54:38 AM »
An argument will only work if both parties are willing to show proof and/or reasoning. Both of your last arguments Tom, is that you do not have to show proof for anything ever, because your assertion is much simpler than ours.

Boy is it ever...

If you want to debate with us big boys Tom, You seriously need to read up on the scientific method, and you need to acknowledge that information can disseminate from enough points on the globe that it would not be questioned by the average intelligent non-conspirist person.

Have you ever considered Tom, and other FE proponents to boot, that you and your ilk are the conspiracy theorists? If you cannot even consider the possibility I'm not sure any sane person should bother debating you...

Reality becomes apparent to the patient observer. Or you can learn a thing or two if you're in a hurry.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2008, 05:09:02 AM »
I've never seen a Round Earth.
1. Billions of people have, myself included. I can detect a degree of curvature at some beaches with a wide enough view. I have seen the obvious curvature from planes. I believe a majority of RE'ers will agree with this assessment.

2. Have you ever seen a flat Earth, ignoring the flawed experiment of looking at a locally linear section of the Earth?

Quote
The only universal experience is that we live upon a plane.
Demonstrate this.

Quote
Your claim that NASA can do all of these amazing things is also an extraordinary claim.

What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter straight up at 7 miles per second, and that NASA can do the impossible on a daily basis, explore the cosmos, and constantly wow the nation by landing a man on the moon and sending robots to mars; or is the simplest explanation that they really can't do all of that stuff?

The simplest explanation is that we can use logic math to configure rockets and spacecraft. Trajectory, air resistance, effect of gravitation is all computable. Building it is a hell of a lot simpler than the complex processes and elaborate workings that a conspiracy would have to use in order to keep up the disguise of rocket launches and fool the entire world.

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The fact is that the only person here making extraordinary claims here is you.
You continue to miss the last point of my post: I have not come to you telling you the Earth is round. I have come here inquiring as to why people believe it is flat.
Quote
It's not our job to disprove your claims and prove a negative.
You shouldn't have to. If you believe in a Flat Earth for logical reasons, then you already have. It's just a matter of posting them.
Quote from: Singularity
This site's primary function promotes the 'fact' that the Earth is actually flat. This is a most extraordinary claim, regardless of whether or not you are trying to convert others to your view. It is your Zetetic Duty to ensure that your alleged facts have substantial evidence to support them.

Quote
We don't need to try to prove that ghosts don't exist.
If this was the ghost believer site, you would.

Quote
You're making the claims here. THE BURDEN IS ON YOU TO PROVE IT
Your telling me that you are not claiming the Earth is flat?
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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divito the truthist

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #52 on: September 09, 2008, 06:17:20 AM »
I can detect a degree of curvature at some beaches with a wide enough view. I have seen the obvious curvature from planes. I believe a majority of RE'ers will agree with this assessment.

Someone of your name should know that appearance of curvature doesn't actually mean it's curved.
Our existentialist, relativist, nihilist, determinist, fascist, eugenicist moderator hath returned.
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mayhem

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #53 on: September 09, 2008, 06:19:35 AM »

No. Your globe earth model is the extraordinary claim. I've never seen a Round Earth. No one here has seen a Round Earth. The only universal experience is that we live upon a plane.


Nor has anyone ever really experienced a flat earth.  Unless you move to a distance sufficient to see all of it, you really have no way of knowing its shape or topology do you?  How do you know its not shaped like a burrito?

Quote
Your claim that NASA can do all of these amazing things is also an extraordinary claim.

What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter straight up at 7 miles per second, and that NASA can do the impossible on a daily basis, explore the cosmos, and constantly wow the nation by landing a man on the moon and sending robots to mars; or is the simplest explanation that they really can't do all of that stuff?

The fact is that the only person here making extraordinary claims here is you. The burden is on you to prove your claims. It's not our job to disprove your claims and prove a negative. We don't need to try to prove that ghosts don't exist.

You're making the claims here. THE BURDEN IS ON YOU TO PROVE IT

The burden is on no one else but you and you alone to personally prove that the earth is a globe and that NASA can do all of the extraordinary things you claim they do.


I've issued comment on all your points a page or so ago...why no reply from you?

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AmateurAstronomer

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #54 on: September 09, 2008, 06:50:42 AM »
I can detect a degree of curvature at some beaches with a wide enough view. I have seen the obvious curvature from planes. I believe a majority of RE'ers will agree with this assessment.

Someone of your name should know that appearance of curvature doesn't actually mean it's curved.

Are you saying that the event horizon is not curved, or that the singularity is not curved? I'm betting neither the singularity nor it's area of influence is cube shaped. Do you beg to differ?

Let me ask you Divito, since you seem to be more insightful than most FE'ers. Have you ever considered the fact that you might be the conspiracy theorist, and not the conspiracy victim?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 06:54:45 AM by AmateurAstronomer »
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divito the truthist

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #55 on: September 09, 2008, 06:58:31 AM »
Are you saying that the event horizon is not curved, or that the singularity is not curved? I'm betting neither the singularity nor it's area of influence is cube shaped. Do you beg to differ?

I'm saying that what you see isn't what is.

Let me ask you Divito, since you seem to be more insightful than most FE'ers. Have you ever considered the fact that you might be the conspiracy theorist, and not the conspiracy victim?

I've never claimed to be a conspiracy victim.
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AmateurAstronomer

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #56 on: September 09, 2008, 07:08:40 AM »
Are you saying that the event horizon is not curved, or that the singularity is not curved? I'm betting neither the singularity nor it's area of influence is cube shaped. Do you beg to differ?

I'm saying that what you see isn't what is.

Let me ask you Divito, since you seem to be more insightful than most FE'ers. Have you ever considered the fact that you might be the conspiracy theorist, and not the conspiracy victim?

I've never claimed to be a conspiracy victim.

You didn't answer either question really, but it wasn't my expectation that you would. I'll save that line of questioning for later on I guess.
Reality becomes apparent to the patient observer. Or you can learn a thing or two if you're in a hurry.

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divito the truthist

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #57 on: September 09, 2008, 07:19:39 AM »
I didn't answer the first one directly because we aren't talking about black holes.

And the second is silly; most people can be defined as conspiracy theorists, whether or not it is used as the intended definition or not. And the fact remains, I've never claimed to be a conspiracy victim.
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AmateurAstronomer

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #58 on: September 09, 2008, 07:45:14 AM »
I didn't answer the first one directly because we aren't talking about black holes.

And the second is silly; most people can be defined as conspiracy theorists, whether or not it is used as the intended definition or not. And the fact remains, I've never claimed to be a conspiracy victim.
To claim that you are not a conspiracy victim, You'd have to assert that the "Round Earth" conspiracy does not exist.

Is it your assertion that there is not a conspiracy to convince the general populace that the Earth is round while it is in fact flat?

Or if that is indeed one of your assertions, was your offense at the word "victim"?
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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Burden of Proof
« Reply #59 on: September 09, 2008, 07:47:02 AM »
Someone of your name should know that appearance of curvature doesn't actually mean it's curved.
What makes you think I don't?

Are you applying this to the curvature of the horizon example, or just as a general rule to not take everything at face value without consideration?
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.