The FE sun is impossible [revisited]

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #60 on: September 27, 2008, 11:20:13 PM »
It usually doesn't take them 10 days to develop new physics.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #61 on: September 27, 2008, 11:58:59 PM »
Your light bending model requires gravitation effect on light to change drastically from what we have observed.

Extreme light bending around stellar bodies is observed. Just look at how sharply the photons of a background star warps then the sun passes in front of it. And the sun is only 32 miles in diameter.

Quote
"According to Einstein's General Relativity Theory, light will be affected in the same way matter is affected by gravity. This is because under this theory, we should think of gravity not in terms of vector like forces, but as a consequence of the "shape" of the universe."

Gravitation via the bending of space-time has not been proven. Einstein never proved that the fabric of space-time exists. There's also a competing theory of Gravity in Quantum Mechanics where Gravity exists through a sub-atomic particle called the Graviton.

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Moon squirter

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2008, 01:07:21 AM »
Your light bending model requires gravitation effect on light to change drastically from what we have observed.

Extreme light bending around stellar bodies is observed. Just look at how sharply the photons of a background star warps then the sun passes in front of it. And the sun is only 32 miles in diameter.

Quote
"According to Einstein's General Relativity Theory, light will be affected in the same way matter is affected by gravity. This is because under this theory, we should think of gravity not in terms of vector like forces, but as a consequence of the "shape" of the universe."

Gravitation via the bending of space-time has not been proven. Einstein never proved that the fabric of space-time exists. There's also a competing theory of Gravity in Quantum Mechanics where Gravity exists through a sub-atomic particle called the Graviton.

Tom,

You're correct about Einstein himself.  However, please see Tests of general relativity.

I suppose it depends on your meaning of the non-scientific term "proven".  -I suspect it's pretty flexible, like most of FET.
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2008, 01:17:30 AM »
Quote
Tom,

You're correct about Einstein himself.  However, please see Tests of general relativity.

There are no tests for the mechanism of Einstein's space-time bending. The Graviton theory of gravitation from Quantum Mechanics makes the same predictions. The Perihelion precession of Mercury, etc. are accounted for by Graviton theory.

No one has come out with a Grand Unified Theory to tie GR and QM together. The mechanisms of neither theory have been confirmed past the hypothesis stage. Until the day someone can test the fabric of space-time directly or see a Graviton particle directly, will there be a conclusion for the mechanism of gravitation.

The true mechanism for gravitation could very well be something else entirely.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2008, 01:21:36 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2008, 01:21:24 AM »
No one has come out with a Grand Unified Theory to tie GR and QM together. The mechanisms of neither theory have been confirmed past the hypothesis stage. Until the day someone can test the fabric of space-time directly or see a Graviton particle directly, will there ever be a conclusion for the mechanism of gravitation.

Hmm, sort of like UA?

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Moon squirter

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2008, 01:26:39 AM »
Quote
Tom,

You're correct about Einstein himself.  However, please see Tests of general relativity.

There are no tests for the mechanism of Einstein's space-time bending. The Graviton theory of Gravity from Quantum Mechanics makes the same predictions. The Perihelion precession of Mercury, etc. is accounted for by Graviton theory.

No one has come out with a Grand Unified Theory to tie GR and QM together. The mechanisms of neither theory have been confirmed pas the hypothesis stage.

Einstein never told us the underlying "mechanism" for the bending of space time.  He only said that it is cause by certain conditions.  It's just a model:  X causes Y.

Even a "Theory of everything" will be just a model, ready to be knocked down my anyone with evidence to hand.

Anything claiming to be beyond a model is in the realms of religion, because it's "absolute truth"
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #66 on: September 28, 2008, 02:09:05 AM »
Hmm, sort of like UA?

Right. At present it's impossible to tell whether we're pinned to the earth by an upwards acceleration of the earth, bendy space-time, Graviton puller particles, or something else entirely. Any theory of gravitation is a hypothesis and nothing more.

As an aside, in the modern FE model Gravity does not exist as either Bendy Space-Time or Graviton particles. The apparent attraction of the cosmos above our heads is thought to be electro-magnetic in nature. We're pinned to the earth by an upwardly accelerating earth, and the Cavendish Experiment doesn't work.

The mechanisms of bendy space and sub-atomic Graviton particles are not necessary to explain our universe.

« Last Edit: September 28, 2008, 02:17:03 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Moon squirter

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2008, 11:03:03 AM »
The mechanisms of bendy space and sub-atomic Graviton particles are not necessary to explain our universe.

FET hasn't actually attempted to explain anything.  It just says
  The earth looks flat because it is flat.
  The earth is accelerating upwards, because something is accelerating it.
  The heavens stay in the sky (although they don't look flat).
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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GravitySlave

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #68 on: September 28, 2008, 11:39:17 AM »
Your light bending model requires gravitation effect on light to change drastically from what we have observed.

Extreme light bending around stellar bodies is observed. Just look at how sharply the photons of a background star warps then the sun passes in front of it. And the sun is only 32 miles in diameter.

Quote
"According to Einstein's General Relativity Theory, light will be affected in the same way matter is affected by gravity. This is because under this theory, we should think of gravity not in terms of vector like forces, but as a consequence of the "shape" of the universe."

Gravitation via the bending of space-time has not been proven. Einstein never proved that the fabric of space-time exists. There's also a competing theory of Gravity in Quantum Mechanics where Gravity exists through a sub-atomic particle called the Graviton.

We keep seeing this drivel that the sun is 32 miles in diameter, but where is the proof of this?  (Here is where he will come back with a link to the sacred texts)
The gravitation influence of the stars is just less over the North Pole than it is over other areas, that's all.

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Euclid

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #69 on: September 28, 2008, 11:47:14 AM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop
The Graviton theory of gravitation from Quantum Mechanics makes the same predictions. The Perihelion precession of Mercury, etc. are accounted for by Graviton theory.

Can you back up this statement with a reference?
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Yes, thanks to the tireless efforts of Euclid and a few other mathematically-inclined members, electromagnetic acceleration is fast moving into the forefront of FE research.
8)

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MrKappa

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #70 on: September 28, 2008, 12:12:45 PM »
I am not too sure if this impacts space time bending... But NASA does have a Gravity Probe B satellite which is to test some of einsteins theories...

Here is a good video regarding why it's important...

http://einstein.stanford.edu/Media/Everitt-Why_test_Einstein-flash.html


More videos here...

http://einstein.stanford.edu/Media/
« Last Edit: September 28, 2008, 12:26:08 PM by MrKappa »

Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #71 on: September 28, 2008, 12:32:58 PM »
your forgetting these people have conspiracies with nasa :-\



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MrKappa

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #72 on: September 28, 2008, 12:53:52 PM »
your forgetting these people have conspiracies with nasa :-\

Who does... not me... If there is something specific which could be a considered a conspiracy it is only America's inability to accept new ideas and to think for themselves...

It's like a bunch of Borg running around manic street preaching about, "how this is the way it is and there is no alternative dammit!"

jmo...


Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #73 on: September 28, 2008, 04:59:24 PM »
The mechanisms of bendy space and sub-atomic Graviton particles are not necessary to explain our universe.

FET hasn't actually attempted to explain anything.  It just says
  The earth looks flat because it is flat.
  The earth is accelerating upwards, because something is accelerating it.
  The heavens stay in the sky (although they don't look flat).


Also, most evidence that opposes/disproves FET is part of the conspiracy.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #74 on: September 28, 2008, 06:39:09 PM »
Quote
Also, most evidence that opposes/disproves FET is part of the conspiracy.

What evidence have you guys brought fourth that disproves FE? "The Government said so"?  ::)

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #75 on: September 28, 2008, 07:20:45 PM »
Your light bending model requires gravitation effect on light to change drastically from what we have observed.

Extreme light bending around stellar bodies is observed. Just look at how sharply the photons of a background star warps then the sun passes in front of it. And the sun is only 32 miles in diameter.

I never said extreme light bending wasn't observed under certain conditions. Just that the bendy light model fails to meet those conditions. Light is bent by large gravitational fields and the geodesics in space time curvature (or some other cause with the same effect) Gravitation only effecting light is complete speculation and is in direct conflict with all scientific observations in this regard.

In order for bendy light to work, it would have to 'attract' (for lack of a better word) light without having an influence on massive objects. This is, simply put, wrong.
 
Quote
"According to Einstein's General Relativity Theory, light will be affected in the same way matter is affected by gravity. This is because under this theory, we should think of gravity not in terms of vector like forces, but as a consequence of the "shape" of the universe."
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Parsifal

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #76 on: September 28, 2008, 07:28:01 PM »
Your light bending model requires gravitation effect on light to change drastically from what we have observed.

Extreme light bending around stellar bodies is observed. Just look at how sharply the photons of a background star warps then the sun passes in front of it. And the sun is only 32 miles in diameter.

I never said extreme light bending wasn't observed under certain conditions. Just that the bendy light model fails to meet those conditions. Light is bent by large gravitational fields and the geodesics in space time curvature (or some other cause with the same effect) Gravitation only effecting light is complete speculation and is in direct conflict with all scientific observations in this regard.

In order for bendy light to work, it would have to 'attract' (for lack of a better word) light without having an influence on massive objects. This is, simply put, wrong.
 
Quote
"According to Einstein's General Relativity Theory, light will be affected in the same way matter is affected by gravity. This is because under this theory, we should think of gravity not in terms of vector like forces, but as a consequence of the "shape" of the universe."

Light is bent by Dark Energy, not gravitation.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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markjo

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #77 on: September 28, 2008, 07:40:40 PM »
Your light bending model requires gravitation effect on light to change drastically from what we have observed.

Extreme light bending around stellar bodies is observed. Just look at how sharply the photons of a background star warps then the sun passes in front of it. And the sun is only 32 miles in diameter.

I never said extreme light bending wasn't observed under certain conditions. Just that the bendy light model fails to meet those conditions. Light is bent by large gravitational fields and the geodesics in space time curvature (or some other cause with the same effect) Gravitation only effecting light is complete speculation and is in direct conflict with all scientific observations in this regard.

In order for bendy light to work, it would have to 'attract' (for lack of a better word) light without having an influence on massive objects. This is, simply put, wrong.
 
Quote
"According to Einstein's General Relativity Theory, light will be affected in the same way matter is affected by gravity. This is because under this theory, we should think of gravity not in terms of vector like forces, but as a consequence of the "shape" of the universe."

Light is bent by Dark Energy, not gravitation.

Do you have any experimental evidence to support this claim?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Parsifal

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #78 on: September 28, 2008, 07:42:35 PM »
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #79 on: September 28, 2008, 07:45:42 PM »
That is experimental, but not specific to for Dark Energy as the cause. I can't think of a reason to even connect the two concepts.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Parsifal

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #80 on: September 28, 2008, 07:46:54 PM »
That is experimental, but not specific to for Dark Energy as the cause. I can't think of a reason to even connect the two concepts.

What other reason can you think of for light bending upwards while ordinary matter is unaffected?
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #81 on: September 28, 2008, 07:48:05 PM »
What other reason can you think of for light bending upwards while ordinary matter is unaffected?
How do we know light is bending upward?
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Parsifal

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I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #83 on: September 28, 2008, 07:53:00 PM »
Wiki quotes of Evidence:

    "Evidence in its broadest sense includes anything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion."
    "Scientific evidence usually goes towards supporting or rejecting a hypothesis."

One theory predicts that the Earth is how we see it. (Your link to pictures)
One theory predicts light bends upwards to create a rounded view of the Earth.

Evidence can only be used effectively if it disproves, or proves one of the theories theory. Two mutually exclusive theories hold for those pictures. Therefore, they shouldn't be admissible as evidence.

Is there any other reason to believe light curves upward?
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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markjo

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #84 on: September 28, 2008, 07:57:56 PM »
Do you have any experimental evidence to support this claim?

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=22317.0

I'm sorry, I must have missed the DE measurements and the calculations showing the amount of bending attributed to the DE.  Could you please point them out to me?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Moon squirter

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #85 on: September 29, 2008, 01:08:08 AM »
Do you have any experimental evidence to support this claim?

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=22317.0

You may as well cite the "window test", as it supports both a FE and RE.

IMO Bendy light is effectively a concession by the FEers that the world does indeed look curved on closer inspection.   I say "curved" because bendy light appears to product a parabolic curve rather that a spherical one.  -Possible basis for a test?

I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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Parsifal

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #86 on: September 29, 2008, 01:09:46 AM »
You may as well cite the "window test", as it supports both a FE and RE.

IMO Bendy light is effectively a concession by the FEers that the world does indeed look curved on closer inspection.   I say "curved" because bendy light appears to product a parabolic curve rather that a spherical one.  -Possible basis for a test?

If you can come up with a test that can distinguish between a parabola and a secant curve on such a large scale, I'd love to hear it.
I'm going to side with the white supremacists.

Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #87 on: September 29, 2008, 01:23:19 AM »
If you can come up with a test that can distinguish between a parabola and a secant curve on such a large scale, I'd love to hear it.

But as has been pointed out, there have been several tests done that confirm that light travels in straight lines.

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Moon squirter

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Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #88 on: September 29, 2008, 01:40:34 AM »
You may as well cite the "window test", as it supports both a FE and RE.

IMO Bendy light is effectively a concession by the FEers that the world does indeed look curved on closer inspection.   I say "curved" because bendy light appears to product a parabolic curve rather that a spherical one.  -Possible basis for a test?

If you can come up with a test that can distinguish between a parabola and a secant curve on such a large scale, I'd love to hear it.

I think it would be extremely difficult, especially when factors such as temperature-related refraction come into play.

But as has been pointed out, there have been several tests done that confirm that light travels in straight lines.

Please elaborate.
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

Re: The FE sun is impossible [revisited]
« Reply #89 on: September 29, 2008, 01:46:23 AM »
Please elaborate.

One of the premises of 'bendy light" is that, well, light bends.  Any interferometer relies on the fact that light travels in straight line paths to function correctly.  If light was being bent upwards at the rate required by FET to create a horizon, it would invalidate those devices, and many others that are required to "assume" that light travels in straight lines.