I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2008, 04:51:14 AM »
Well it's not a stupid argument when people are using the wrong word
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Fikealox

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2008, 04:51:57 AM »
In a single post after your mere suggestion, an argument of semantics has started, Pabes :P

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2008, 04:58:46 AM »
That's FES for you
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Fikealox

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2008, 05:17:03 AM »
I'm starting to like it ;) I've already accepted that no productive discussion or debate of FE theory can really happen, and soon I'll be able to accept that no discussion of anything can happen, and then my sanity will be safe :D

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2008, 05:27:54 AM »
good, you're catching on
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Ltar

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2008, 10:28:21 PM »
You people don't understand what constitutes a force. It annoys me, because you're arguing about something that isn't really relevant to the earth being flat.

A force is any influence that may cause an object to move. I can push against my desk, and I am exerting a force on it. I can turn a screwdriver, and I am exerting a force on that screw. The earth is flat, so lets let a book serve as an analogy for it for now. When I set my keys on the book and lift it, then the book accelerates against the keys, exerting a force analogous to earth's gravity as it accelerates upwards.

Now pretend there's a grasshopper on my book. When the grasshopper jumps, it accelerates faster than the book, relative to a static point outside of the plane of the book. Once the grasshopper is no longer touching the book... well, the book isn't exerting any sort of force on it now. Without such a force, the grasshopper would fly off ahead of the book. If the earth doesn't exert any sort of gravity, some force that can act .through space, then we could simply accelerate ourselves at 9.9 meters per second squared for an instant, and be free of the earth forever.

Gravity IS a force. It causes us to move back to the plane of the earth.

What I don't understand is why you insist that the earth must be perpetually accelerating in order to explain gravity. I was always taught that gravity, a very real phenomenon, was the attraction of two objects with mass. An experimentally proven phenomena. Do you suggest that the earth does not have mass, and therefore must emulate gravity with acceleration in one dimension?

Where is the acceleration coming from? How fast are we really going? Sooner or later, we'll reach the speed of light. The earth can't just be accelerating forever.

Here's what i've always been taught:

-The surface of the earth is a flat plane
This is obvious. Anything that does not curve is flat, by definition of the word flat. We can easily observe that the earth is flat, or else atmospheric lensing and perspective, combined with a curved earth, would create a significantly closer horizon than we observe, by several orders of magnitude.

-The earth has mass
Drr. Really wanna argue this? yes, the earth has mass. Corollary 1 - things that have mass exhibit gravity.



so.... why do you need to justify gravity with some infeasible theory of the earth.... exhibiting perpetual motion? The earth has mass. without having ever orbited the earth (impossible), but having measured gravity to be approximately constant at all points on the earth, we must then assume that the mass of the earth is evenly distributed beneath us.

Think about it. The earth is flat, but it's not a razor-plane. The oceans are thousands of feet deep, we've dug mines a mile deep. there's SOMETHING THERE. Mass. A hell of a lot of it. Here are my assumptions.

the surface of the earth is a flat plane.
The plane of the earth has definite edges
The earth has depth.
if Gravity is constant across the entire explored earth...
...then the depth of the earth must be approximately constant at all points.

Is it really all that startling to think of the earth as a cylinder? There's no telling what's on the other side, or if it's even habitable, but really. Do you really need perpetual acceleration to explain the force of gravity?

Correct me if I've made any glaring omissions here, but this is what I've always taken for granted to be common knowledge. Gravity exists and is constant, the earth is flat, therefore the earth must somehow resemble a cylinder.

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divito the truthist

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Ltar

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2008, 11:23:56 PM »
...and then what? just accept that the earth is perpetually accelerating, thus creating the illusion of gravity?

I'm not convinced. from that link, and i'm going to be brief with this...

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the speed limit of the universe, the speed of light.

The speed of light is effectively the speed limit of the universe, no?

so, the plane of the earth accelerates from rest at 9.81 m/s^2 for.... 30,559,883.6 seconds.

Speed of light-                  299,792,458 m/s
Acceleration of earth-              9.81 m/s/s

divide it yourself.

30,559,883.6 seconds is 509,331.39 minutes is 8,488.86 hours is 353.7 days is not quite one year.

Do you mean to imply that the earth has existed for less than one year? Or else, why have we not reached the limit of our acceleration?

I'm a flat earther, not a last-thursdayist.



Also, your link does not address the issue of a force to accelerate the earth. I really don't see why gravity gets you folks so riled up. Gravity is proven, Globe Earth is not. The two are not incongruous.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 11:37:04 PM by Ltar »
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divito the truthist

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2008, 02:02:06 AM »
...and then what? just accept that the earth is perpetually accelerating, thus creating the illusion of gravity?

Um, no. I'm not sure how you got that. Given the Equivalence Principle, and the evidence contained in that thread, an accelerating Earth is possible and gravity is fictitious.

Do you mean to imply that the earth has existed for less than one year? Or else, why have we not reached the limit of our acceleration?

Velocities do not add linearly in Special Relativity. You do not always add 9.8m to your velocity relative to where you started. This is because of relativistic effects.

"Relativity states that no object can accelerate to the speed of light.  Velocity does not add linearly in Relativity.  It will reach an asymptote, the speed of light, and can be seen in the equations.  Therefore, an object can accelerate at a constant rate and never reach the speed of light." - TheEngineer

Also, your link does not address the issue of a force to accelerate the earth. I really don't see why gravity gets you folks so riled up. Gravity is proven, Globe Earth is not. The two are not incongruous.

The force used, depending on the model, is the Universal Accelerator or Dark Energy. And gravity is not proven, gravitation however, is.
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The Terror

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2008, 03:11:19 AM »
Who do you people always quote the Engineer? He could just be making it up

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divito the truthist

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2008, 03:20:06 AM »
I quote him because he explains it the best. I've also verified that what he says is true.
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The Terror

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2008, 03:26:23 AM »
I'm a bit sceptical to be honest. Einstein's theories haven't actually been proven, they just happen to work a bit better as a way of predicting universal motion than Newton's theories do. They could be disproven by quantum mechanics. hundreds of years from now relativity could be dismissed as a fad.

On the other hand the earth has been proven to be a globe and you insist it hasn't been.

I guess it comes down to opinion as always.

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divito the truthist

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2008, 03:35:50 AM »
A bit better than Newton? Oh dear.
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The Terror

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2008, 04:06:58 AM »
Well, using solar system movement as a judge, Newton accurate predicts the orbits and existence of all planets except Mercury, who's orbit around the sun is a bit funny. Einstein gets them all right. Therefore his theories are a bit better than Newton. They are a Mercury more accurate than Newton's theories.

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TheEngineer

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2008, 06:22:05 AM »
Now pretend there's a grasshopper on my book. When the grasshopper jumps, it accelerates faster than the book, relative to a static point outside of the plane of the book. Once the grasshopper is no longer touching the book... well, the book isn't exerting any sort of force on it now. Without such a force, the grasshopper would fly off ahead of the book. If the earth doesn't exert any sort of gravity, some force that can act .through space, then we could simply accelerate ourselves at 9.9 meters per second squared for an instant, and be free of the earth forever.
Perhaps you should review physics 101 before retuning.

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Gravity IS a force. It causes us to move back to the plane of the earth.
Then why do you only feel this force when you are in contact with the Earth?

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What I don't understand is why you insist that the earth must be perpetually accelerating in order to explain gravity. I was always taught that gravity, a very real phenomenon, was the attraction of two objects with mass.
And you were taught wrong.

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Do you suggest that the earth does not have mass, and therefore must emulate gravity with acceleration in one dimension?
No, just that the FE is at least gravitationally 'neutral'.

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Where is the acceleration coming from? How fast are we really going? Sooner or later, we'll reach the speed of light. The earth can't just be accelerating forever.
Dark Energy.  Less than the speed of light.  No, we won't.  Yes, it can.

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but having measured gravity to be approximately constant at all points on the earth, we must then assume that the mass of the earth is evenly distributed beneath us.
Or the FE is accelerating.

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Is it really all that startling to think of the earth as a cylinder?
It's not 2D.   ::)

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Gravity exists
Gravity only exists as a construct of your mind.  It is not a force.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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Ltar

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2008, 10:14:25 AM »
Preface:
Please understand, I mean no undue disrespect with my postings. In this thread, I am simply trying to establish that traditional gravitational theory does not conflict with a flat earth, and that our level world does, in fact, exhibit a constant, inward GRAVITATIONAL force of 9.81m/s/s, rather than a constant force of physical upward acceleration creating the illusion of said gravity.


... When the grasshopper jumps, it accelerates faster than the book, relative to a static point outside of the plane of the book...
Perhaps you should review physics 101 before retuning.

Or you could give two shits and tell me where you think my analogy fails.

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Gravity IS a force. It causes us to move back to the plane of the earth.
Then why do you only feel this force when you are in contact with the Earth?

You don't only feel it when you're in contact with the earth. That was the point of my grasshopper/book analogy. If gravity disappeared when you weren't physically touching the earth, you could jump straight up and fly away. When you jump, you fall back down. That is the force of gravity acting on you.

You HAD a positive vertical velocity relative to the ground, it became less and less untill it was negative, and then you accelerated downwards (at 9.81 m/s/s) until you reached the ground. You were in motion, and the magnitude of your motion changed. That REQUIRES a force, according to newtons first law.

I think what you're thinking of is the force the ground exerts up against you, which is precisely equal to the force you exert on the ground due to gravity. Because you don't feel "weight" on your feet unless you're touching the ground doesn't mean gravity doesn't exist, it means you aren't acting on anything solid.

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What I don't understand is why you insist that the earth must be perpetually accelerating in order to explain gravity. I was always taught that gravity, a very real phenomenon, was the attraction of two objects with mass.
And you were taught wrong.


well, there you have it then. I guess you've convinced me on the matter. You're lucky I don't like to see examples and evidence to support conclusions, or I wouldn't have been so easily swayed.

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Do you suggest that the earth does not have mass, and therefore must emulate gravity with acceleration in one dimension?
No, just that the FE is at least gravitationally 'neutral'.

So the laws of physics don't apply to US, in particular, then? An object cannot have mass and not exhibit gravity. There is no such thing as "gravitational neutrality".

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Where is the acceleration coming from? How fast are we really going? Sooner or later, we'll reach the speed of light. The earth can't just be accelerating forever.
Dark Energy.  Less than the speed of light.  No, we won't.  Yes, it can.

Dark energy. Of course. If we don't understand it, it must have magic powers.

How can the earth possibly accelerate forever? Are we exempted from the universal speed limit, somehow? I quote myself:

Quote from: Ltar

The speed of light is effectively the speed limit of the universe, no?

so, the plane of the earth accelerates from rest at 9.81 m/s^2 for.... 30,559,883.6 seconds.

Speed of light-                  299,792,458 m/s
Acceleration of earth-              9.81 m/s/s

divide it yourself.

30,559,883.6 seconds is 509,331.39 minutes is 8,488.86 hours is 353.7 days is not quite one year.

Do you mean to imply that the earth has existed for less than one year? Or else, why have we not reached the limit of our acceleration?

I'm a flat earther, not a last-thursdayist.



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but having measured gravity to be approximately constant at all points on the earth, we must then assume that the mass of the earth is evenly distributed beneath us.
Or the FE is accelerating.

except that's clearly impossible.

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Is it really all that startling to think of the earth as a cylinder?
It's not 2D.   ::)

then it has volume, and it has mass. Therefore gravity.

Quote
Quote
Gravity exists
Gravity only exists as a construct of your mind.  It is not a force.

no, of course. Gravity just something that accelerates an object. That's not a force at all.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2008, 10:28:28 AM by Ltar »
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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2008, 10:44:50 AM »
You people don't understand what constitutes a force. It annoys me, because you're arguing about something that isn't really relevant to the earth being flat.

A force is any influence that may cause an object to move. I can push against my desk, and I am exerting a force on it. I can turn a screwdriver, and I am exerting a force on that screw. The earth is flat, so lets let a book serve as an analogy for it for now. When I set my keys on the book and lift it, then the book accelerates against the keys, exerting a force analogous to earth's gravity as it accelerates upwards.

Now pretend there's a grasshopper on my book. When the grasshopper jumps, it accelerates faster than the book, relative to a static point outside of the plane of the book. Once the grasshopper is no longer touching the book... well, the book isn't exerting any sort of force on it now. Without such a force, the grasshopper would fly off ahead of the book. If the earth doesn't exert any sort of gravity, some force that can act .through space, then we could simply accelerate ourselves at 9.9 meters per second squared for an instant, and be free of the earth forever.

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. Of course if there was no acceleration back towards the ground due to its mass and there was no acceleration of the ground back towards you then yes the grasshopper would leap and move away at a constant speed, never to return. But of course we know for a fact that one of those situations exists - Either we're on a globe that attracts us or we're on a plane that accelerates us. So on the accelerating plane no forces, real or pseudo, are required (Apart from the force accelerating the Earth but that's a completely different discussion). On the globe we accelerate back to Earth due to its (and our) mass.

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Gravity IS a force. It causes us to move back to the plane of the earth.

Gravity is not a force. Gravity is a convenient word and in Newtonian physics you can get away with treating it as a force but it's units are not Newtons are they? Gravity is always measured in the units of acceleration. It cannot be a force because it accelerates all mass at exactly the same rate. A real force like, say, me pushing a rock along the ground is different because if I push two rocks of different mass with the same force they do not accelerate at the same rate.

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What I don't understand is why you insist that the earth must be perpetually accelerating in order to explain gravity. I was always taught that gravity, a very real phenomenon, was the attraction of two objects with mass. An experimentally proven phenomena. Do you suggest that the earth does not have mass, and therefore must emulate gravity with acceleration in one dimension?

Where is the acceleration coming from? How fast are we really going? Sooner or later, we'll reach the speed of light. The earth can't just be accelerating forever.

It must be accelerating because "gravity" is acceleration so if it's going to explain gravity then it must involve acceleration. It's very simple really. What FE theory states is that masses do not attract each other at all and our perception of being attracted to Earth is caused by the Earth constantly accelerating in to us. If we jump up with a greater acceleration than the Earth then we leave its surface. However we must maintain this acceleration otherwise the Earth will eventually catch up with us. Does this make sense? Remember to always be aware of the difference between velocity and acceleration.

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Here's what i've always been taught:

-The surface of the earth is a flat plane
This is obvious. Anything that does not curve is flat, by definition of the word flat. We can easily observe that the earth is flat, or else atmospheric lensing and perspective, combined with a curved earth, would create a significantly closer horizon than we observe, by several orders of magnitude.

-The earth has mass
Drr. Really wanna argue this? yes, the earth has mass. Corollary 1 - things that have mass exhibit gravity.



so.... why do you need to justify gravity with some infeasible theory of the earth.... exhibiting perpetual motion? The earth has mass. without having ever orbited the earth (impossible), but having measured gravity to be approximately constant at all points on the earth, we must then assume that the mass of the earth is evenly distributed beneath us.

Think about it. The earth is flat, but it's not a razor-plane. The oceans are thousands of feet deep, we've dug mines a mile deep. there's SOMETHING THERE. Mass. A hell of a lot of it. Here are my assumptions.

the surface of the earth is a flat plane.
The plane of the earth has definite edges
The earth has depth.
if Gravity is constant across the entire explored earth...
...then the depth of the earth must be approximately constant at all points.

Is it really all that startling to think of the earth as a cylinder? There's no telling what's on the other side, or if it's even habitable, but really. Do you really need perpetual acceleration to explain the force of gravity?

Correct me if I've made any glaring omissions here, but this is what I've always taken for granted to be common knowledge. Gravity exists and is constant, the earth is flat, therefore the earth must somehow resemble a cylinder.


You're forgetting one very important detail about gravitation due to mass. It occurs in all directions and it follows an inverse square rule which means the further away you get from a mass the less acceleration you experience towards it. So wherever you stand on the plane you are under the influence of the entire plane. Think about that when you consider the difference between standing at the edge of the plane and standing in the middle. Which point do you think would cause you to accelerate towards the plane the most? The centre would, because you are at the point where you're closest to all parts of the plane. At the edge you would accelerate less because you are further away from the centre of mass. On a cylinder the effect is exactly the same. At the edges you would weight much less than at the middle. You simply cannot have a uniform gravitation on any other shape than a sphere. So if mass gives way to acceleration then the Earth must be a sphere. That is why in FE theory gravitation due to mass does not exist.

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fshy94

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2008, 10:48:55 AM »
Preface:
Please understand, I mean no undue disrespect with my postings. In this thread, I am simply trying to establish that traditional gravitational theory does not conflict with a flat earth, and that our level world does, in fact, exhibit a constant, inward GRAVITATIONAL force of 9.81m/s/s, rather than a constant force of physical upward acceleration creating the illusion of said gravity.

But then why, at the edges of the Earth, do we not observe gravity pointing towards the center of mass as Newtonian physics would have it? it should be tilting around 45 or so degrees there, making it immensely easier to jump, etc... gravity would be observed to be like 0.5 g at say...Australia...not to mention that gravity would pull you sideways, but never mind.

... When the grasshopper jumps, it accelerates faster than the book, relative to a static point outside of the plane of the book...
Perhaps you should review physics 101 before retuning.

Or you could give two shits and tell me where you think my analogy fails.

Lots of places, to be honest. First off, there is no static point. Only Frames of reference. Secondly, you really ought to even attempt a cursory check of relativity, which is amazing.

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Gravity IS a force. It causes us to move back to the plane of the earth.
Then why do you only feel this force when you are in contact with the Earth?

You don't only feel it when you're in contact with the earth. That was the point of my grasshopper/book analogy. If gravity disappeared when you weren't physically touching the earth, you could jump straight up and fly away. When you jump, you fall back down. That is the force of gravity acting on you.

You HAD a positive vertical velocity relative to the ground, it became less and less untill it was negative, and then you accelerated downwards (at 9.81 m/s/s) until you reached the ground. You were in motion, and the magnitude of your motion changed. That REQUIRES a force, according to newtons first law.

I think what you're thinking of is the force the ground exerts up against you, which is precisely equal to the force you exert on the ground due to gravity. Because you don't feel "weight" on your feet unless you're touching the ground doesn't mean gravity doesn't exist, it means you aren't acting on anything solid.

Sorry, no. Think about it. How do astronauts-in-training simulate zero G? They free-fall in a plane. So, therefore, they can consider that no force is acting on them. Think about sticking yourself in a metal elevator sealed from the world. If there is no gravity on you, how do you know whether or not you are free-falling or in deep space? You don't. Therefore, there is no force. Try again with a force of 9.8 m/s^2 on you. How do you know whether you're accelerating with a rocket in deep space, or on Earth? You don't. Therefore, the only force you feel is from the ground, and gravitation is merely a geodesic, a natural tendancy for you to move downwards due to the curvature of space-time.

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What I don't understand is why you insist that the earth must be perpetually accelerating in order to explain gravity. I was always taught that gravity, a very real phenomenon, was the attraction of two objects with mass.
And you were taught wrong.


well, there you have it then. I guess you've convinced me on the matter. You're lucky I don't like to see examples and evidence to support conclusions, or I wouldn't have been so easily swayed.

Well, there is evidence regarding Einstein, as opposed to Newton. There's the fact that it explains the precessions of the perihelion of Mercury, and the fact that we shot a light pulse through a predicted wrinkle in time, and it jumped forward in time.

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Do you suggest that the earth does not have mass, and therefore must emulate gravity with acceleration in one dimension?
No, just that the FE is at least gravitationally 'neutral'.

So the laws of physics don't apply to US, in particular, then? An object cannot have mass and not exhibit gravity. There is no such thing as "gravitational neutrality".

Exactly. Hence, RE.

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Where is the acceleration coming from? How fast are we really going? Sooner or later, we'll reach the speed of light. The earth can't just be accelerating forever.
Dark Energy.  Less than the speed of light.  No, we won't.  Yes, it can.

Dark energy. Of course. If we don't understand it, it must have magic powers.

How can the earth possibly accelerate forever? Are we exempted from the universal speed limit, somehow? I quote myself:

I concur with the Dark energy point, hence RE. However, Einstein's special relativity states that from our own FOR, we may accelerate forever, since any outside observer will see us never pass the speed of light, and we will never observe anything else pass the speed of light. However, it would require a near infinite source of energy, hence why they invent magic Dark energy.

Quote from: Ltar

The speed of light is effectively the speed limit of the universe, no?

so, the plane of the earth accelerates from rest at 9.81 m/s^2 for.... 30,559,883.6 seconds.

Speed of light-                  299,792,458 m/s
Acceleration of earth-              9.81 m/s/s

divide it yourself.

30,559,883.6 seconds is 509,331.39 minutes is 8,488.86 hours is 353.7 days is not quite one year.

Do you mean to imply that the earth has existed for less than one year? Or else, why have we not reached the limit of our acceleration?

I'm a flat earther, not a last-thursdayist.

See above.



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but having measured gravity to be approximately constant at all points on the earth, we must then assume that the mass of the earth is evenly distributed beneath us.
Or the FE is accelerating.

except that's clearly impossible.

Quote
Quote
Is it really all that startling to think of the earth as a cylinder?
It's not 2D.   ::)

then it has volume, and it has mass. Therefore gravity.

Quote
Quote
Gravity exists
Gravity only exists as a construct of your mind.  It is not a force.

no, of course. Gravity just something that accelerates an object. That's not a force at all.

Well, you see it as a force, so from that POV you can consider it a force, but technically, its not, since there is no energy expended, and curvature of space-time, yada, yada. I also refer you to my "proof" thread in my sig, which shows the irrationality of the flat Earth, due to airplane difficulties.
Proof the Earth is round!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19341.0

Quote from: Althalus
The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
^^LOL!

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divito the truthist

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2008, 12:40:48 PM »
It's not magic Dark Energy. Holy shit.
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Ltar

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2008, 12:50:55 PM »

Gravity is not a force. Gravity is a convenient word and in Newtonian physics you can get away with treating it as a force but it's units are not Newtons are they? Gravity is always measured in the units of acceleration. It cannot be a force because it accelerates all mass at exactly the same rate. A real force like, say, me pushing a rock along the ground is different because if I push two rocks of different mass with the same force they do not accelerate at the same rate.


This is not true. Gravity is proportional to mass, but the mass of the earth is stupidly greater than the mass of anything ON the earth, so everything falls at the same rate. Consider the Moon. On the moon, which is a mass less than the earth, things falls proportionally slower. On mars, objects weight about a third what they do on earth. The gravity of a body is directly proportional to its mass.

Your rock and boulder analogy is accurate, but limited. The boulder in the case of the earth is so extraneously huge that you could never push it. In Flat Earth theory, earth-boulder pushes YOU.

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First off, there is no static point. Only Frames of reference.

Given, but that's really just syntax. My analogy wasn't a complete enough universe to allow a genuine point of reference, so I had to create one to illustrate the point. In the real world, you could use a distant star (one not orbiting us) or galaxy just as easily.

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But then why, at the edges of the Earth, do we not observe gravity pointing towards the center of mass as Newtonian physics would have it? it should be tilting around 45 or so degrees there, making it immensely easier to jump, etc... gravity would be observed to be like 0.5 g at say...Australia...not to mention that gravity would pull you sideways, but never mind.

...

You simply cannot have a uniform gravitation on any other shape than a sphere. So if mass gives way to acceleration then the Earth must be a sphere.

Clearly because the center of mass of the earth is so far below the plane of the earth that it appears parallel, similar to how the rays of the sun seem to always arrive parallel to each other. The earth could very well consist of a deep, less dense upper layer of the stuff we can dig into, sitting on a substrate of denser iron or uranium, so immensely long that gravity only SEEMS to be parallel.

Or, the substrate could, in fact, be infinite. It's just tortoises, all the way down. My point is, an extremely deep, bottom weighted cylinder would create pseudo-uniform gravity, certainly more uniform than RE theory, which claims all sorts of variations based on latitude imperfect sphere-shapes.

Alternately, there may be some sort of gravitational lensing phenomena, but that seems a bit too magical for me to really explore further.

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Sorry, no. Think about it. How do astronauts-in-training simulate zero G? They free-fall in a plane. So, therefore, they can consider that no force is acting on them

This doesn't mean the force doesn't exist, it means they can't observe it. We, however, CAN observe gravity acting on us when we are not in direct contact with the earth. Gravity is weird, I'll grant you. It behaves nothing like "normal" electromagnetism, It's weaker, and affects its influence across significantly larger distances, but it IS a force.

An object in motion which comes into interaction with a gravity well will change its heading and velocity. An object at rest will begin to accelerate towards a body of sufficient mass to exert a gravitational pull on it. The Sun and the Moon wouldn't orbit us if gravity did not exert a force on them.

Forces felt != forces in effect. We are not aware of the gravitational effect of the moon, but we can observe it in the tides of the oceans. A body passing through the gravity well of our earth/moon/sun system will not feel the effects of the gravity, but will ultimately fly off in a different direction

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What FE theory states is that masses do not attract each other at all and our perception of being attracted to Earth is caused by the Earth constantly accelerating in to us. If we jump up with a greater acceleration than the Earth then we leave its surface. However we must maintain this acceleration otherwise the Earth will eventually catch up with us. Does this make sense? Remember to always be aware of the difference between velocity and acceleration.

But the sun and the moon orbit us. Two sources of magic acceleration to propel them in such a parabola? Unlikely.

I think I do understand the implications of an accelerating earth, though, now... except it seems it would complicate air travel in ways I can't fully envision right now. The only real problem with it, then, is magical dark energy, and other bodies exhibiting gravity. I see no reason to make exceptions in physics for the earth uniquely. Sun, moon, et. al.


I hope we can agree that the "classical" idea of flat-earth gravitation by acceleration is absurd. Now if only you would open your eyes for a moment, you'll see that the idea of a round earth is equally absurd.

The difference between V and A is simple, the latter is the rate of change of the former. Acceleration is the 1st derivative of velocity. I'm certainly up to speed on high-school level physics, to be sure.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2008, 01:12:54 PM by Ltar »
Blame not on malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
wow you are officially narcberry stupid. 

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TheEngineer

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2008, 03:25:06 PM »
Or you could give two shits and tell me where you think my analogy fails.
The part where you think a impulsively accelerated object will continue to accelerate at that rate forever.

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You HAD a positive vertical velocity relative to the ground, it became less and less untill it was negative, and then you accelerated downwards (at 9.81 m/s/s) until you reached the ground. You were in motion, and the magnitude of your motion changed. That REQUIRES a force, according to newtons first law.
Too bad for you, Newton's laws of inertia don't apply in non inertial frames of reference.  Therefore, no force is necessary.

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I think what you're thinking of is the force the ground exerts up against you, which is precisely equal to the force you exert on the ground due to gravity. Because you don't feel "weight" on your feet unless you're touching the ground doesn't mean gravity doesn't exist, it means you aren't acting on anything solid.
Actually, it does.  That was Einstein's thinking, anyway...

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well, there you have it then. I guess you've convinced me on the matter. You're lucky I don't like to see examples and evidence to support conclusions, or I wouldn't have been so easily swayed.
See General Relativity.

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An object cannot have mass and not exhibit gravity. There is no such thing as "gravitational neutrality".
Do you know that for a fact or are you making an assumption?

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Dark energy. Of course. If we don't understand it, it must have magic powers.
So your 'gravity' is magic?  Well, at least that is cleared up.

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How can the earth possibly accelerate forever? Are we exempted from the universal speed limit, somehow? I quote myself:
 
You can quote yourself all you want, your equations are wrong.  You should educate yourself on the finer points of Special Relativity.

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except that's clearly impossible.
Sorry, where was that shown?

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then it has volume, and it has mass. Therefore gravity.
See my previous post.

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That's not a force at all.
Good, I'm glad that is cleared up.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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divito the truthist

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2008, 03:52:16 PM »
Since you failed to have this sink in the first time:

Do you mean to imply that the earth has existed for less than one year? Or else, why have we not reached the limit of our acceleration?

Velocities do not add linearly in Special Relativity. You do not always add 9.8m to your velocity relative to where you started. This is because of relativistic effects.

"Relativity states that no object can accelerate to the speed of light.  Velocity does not add linearly in Relativity.  It will reach an asymptote, the speed of light, and can be seen in the equations.  Therefore, an object can accelerate at a constant rate and never reach the speed of light."

You use this equation:



u = current velocity
v = 9.8m/s
c = speed of light
w= new velocity

Go ahead and start at one less than the speed of light and try and pass the speed of light.
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Jack

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2008, 03:55:14 PM »
Gravity is proportional to mass, but the mass of the earth is stupidly greater than the mass of anything ON the earth, so everything falls at the same rate. Consider the Moon. On the moon, which is a mass less than the earth, things falls proportionally slower. On mars, objects weight about a third what they do on earth. The gravity of a body is directly proportional to its mass.
Major Fail.

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einstien

Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2008, 04:38:16 PM »
Gravity is proportional to mass, but the mass of the earth is stupidly greater than the mass of anything ON the earth, so everything falls at the same rate. Consider the Moon. On the moon, which is a mass less than the earth, things falls proportionally slower. On mars, objects weight about a third what they do on earth. The gravity of a body is directly proportional to its mass.
Major Fail.
You do know he's right that the gravitational acceleration on the moon is approx. 1.65 m/s and that on earth its 9.81 m/s that does show that gravity/gravitation is directly proportional to mass

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Kasroa Is Gone

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2008, 04:48:34 PM »
I can't even be bothered...

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Jack

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2008, 05:12:20 PM »
You do know he's right that the gravitational acceleration on the moon is approx. 1.65 m/s and that on earth its 9.81 m/s that does show that gravity/gravitation is directly proportional to mass
Except Newton's gravity does not work on massive objects (Moon, Earth, etc). This is why we have general relativity.

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Fikealox

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2008, 05:30:30 PM »
You use this equation:



u = current velocity
v = 9.8m/s
c = speed of light
w= new velocity

Go ahead and start at one less than the speed of light and try and pass the speed of light.

Hmm, they didn't teach us "physicsforums.com" when I was at school.

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einstien

Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2008, 05:30:39 PM »
You do know he's right that the gravitational acceleration on the moon is approx. 1.65 m/s and that on earth its 9.81 m/s that does show that gravity/gravitation is directly proportional to mass
Except Newton's gravity does not work on massive objects (Moon, Earth, etc). This is why we have general relativity.
Yes but Gr still says gravity/gravitation is proportional to mass

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divito the truthist

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2008, 05:33:27 PM »
Hmm, they didn't teach us "physicsforums.com" when I was at school.

That formula is also on Wikipedia, and a number of other places. I just happened to grab it from there first.
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fshy94

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Re: I'm a fucking idiot and can't understand gravitation vs gravity.
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2008, 05:45:42 PM »
No no, look at your equation. You accidentally got the logo rather than the equation... ;D
Proof the Earth is round!
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=19341.0

Quote from: Althalus
The conspiracy has made it impossible to adequately explain FE theory in English.
^^LOL!