Shuttle crashs

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uglykidjoe

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #330 on: June 30, 2008, 02:08:52 PM »
Bathos in all its glory.

Oh dear, the comedy . . . too much, much too much. I laughed, I cried. 
Well because of your immaturity and unnatural ignorance you have failed at another post.

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messierhunter

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #331 on: June 30, 2008, 02:31:03 PM »
Ski lost the privaledge of being treated with civility the moment he dropped any attempt to maintain intellectual honesty and started resorting to lies.  Refusing to acknowledge the validity of one's argument because of foul language is a terrible excuse to maintain and support ignorance.  Ethical debating went out the window here long before I started becoming hostile, and frankly, since that seems to be the only way you can attack my argument I'd say it reflects quite poorly on your own critical thinking skills.

First off, its "privilege".  I know that the Internet is hard to use and it doesn't provide you with all kinds of online dictionaries, but if you could make the effort, it'd really be appreciated by those of us who have to sort through your inanity. 
Spelling nazi, no one cares.  Go home and get a life.

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The only "lie" I saw was him conjuring up a faked image of the ISS and lying about the source in an attempt to demonstrate how easy it is to do. 
Then you missed or ignored the EMAS bullshit he spewed before he even started in on the ISS.  Frankly I'm far more pissed about the former than anything else because the latter actually plays into, and validates, my original argument when I first came here.  You still don't seem to get that, but there's not much I can do about wilful ignorance.

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messierhunter

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #332 on: June 30, 2008, 02:37:57 PM »
Ski lost the privaledge of being treated with civility the moment he dropped any attempt to maintain intellectual honesty and started resorting to lies. 

I'm reasonably certain I've demonstrated a great deal of civility (if not respect you have not earned) through the entire conversation. Your inability to admit error is not my fault. I stand by any of my statements made in this thread and will let the readers decide for themselves whose argument has more merit.
I'm sorry, where do you see me asking for civility on your part?  I don't recall giving a fuck how much civility you treat me with.  I'm not really surprised that you're still "standing by" the lie you made in this thread, but for the sake of "letting the readers decide" (oh the ego, he thinks lurkers reading this give a shit about what any of us has to say) here's what you're "standing by."
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The runway would be of sufficient length and EMAS would prevent damage in all but the most extreme circumstances.
Come again?  I see EMAS in that statement, not SOAS...
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The runway would be of sufficient length and EMAS would prevent damage in all but the most extreme circumstances.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he said EMAS... but just in case let me look again:
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The runway would be of sufficient length and EMAS would prevent damage in all but the most extreme circumstances.
Yup.  Definately lied through his fucking teeth.

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Ski

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #333 on: June 30, 2008, 02:49:39 PM »
Just for fun, we'll look at all the posts I reference EMAS.


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If the site NASA uses for landings has EMAS ... then a shuttle could land farther than midway down the runway and still manage a minimum of damage

So, if they use EMAS, they improve their safety margin. Which part of that do you dispute? I maintain the 10,000' runway itself is long enough for use.


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If you are willing to spend the money, I would bet the use of EMAS would enable an even shorter strip to be used (though with a smaller safety margin in the event of accidental overshoot).

Again, the use of a 10,000' runway leaves room for error. If they use EMAS you could use an even shorter strip than 10000'.

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Great. My claim has never been that they used Lajes specifically or exclusively. Though I still think you've done a piss-poor job of showing how impossible it is. The runway would be of sufficient length and EMAS would prevent damage in all but the most extreme circumstances.

Again, the runway would be of sufficient length. It could land. EMAS would prevent damage in the event of an exceptionally large overshoot. I see nothing disputable here.

"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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uglykidjoe

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #334 on: June 30, 2008, 02:54:59 PM »
Then you missed or ignored the EMAS bullshit he spewed before he even started in on the ISS.  Frankly I'm far more pissed about the former than anything else because the latter actually plays into, and validates, my original argument when I first came here.  You still don't seem to get that, but there's not much I can do about wilful ignorance.

Again, its "willful".  Is it really that difficult to post with proper grammar and spelling?  Firefox features a built-in spelling checker now so you don't even have to do much hard work.  

The issue isn't so much about you being an abusive, incoherent, douchebag with a poor sense of humor, its that you seem incapable of making a point without belittling and berating people who have an opposing viewpoint.  What you appear to be missing, manners aside, is that making barely coherent, insult-ridden posts actually detracts from the point you're trying to make and causes people to immediately dismiss your points out of hand.  If something that someone types online gets you so infuriated that your first instinct is to respond with bile-filled ravings, incoherency and personal insults, then perhaps you're doing it wrong.  Go outside, take a walk.  Be with your family, stroke your pets.  It'll all be ok.  
« Last Edit: June 30, 2008, 02:57:16 PM by uglykidjoe »
Well because of your immaturity and unnatural ignorance you have failed at another post.

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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #335 on: June 30, 2008, 02:56:40 PM »
Ski lost the privaledge of being treated with civility the moment he dropped any attempt to maintain intellectual honesty and started resorting to lies. 

I'm reasonably certain I've demonstrated a great deal of civility (if not respect you have not earned) through the entire conversation. Your inability to admit error is not my fault. I stand by any of my statements made in this thread and will let the readers decide for themselves whose argument has more merit.
I'm sorry, where do you see me asking for civility on your part?  I don't recall giving a fuck how much civility you treat me with.  I'm not really surprised that you're still "standing by" the lie you made in this thread, but for the sake of "letting the readers decide" (oh the ego, he thinks lurkers reading this give a shit about what any of us has to say) here's what you're "standing by."
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The runway would be of sufficient length and EMAS would prevent damage in all but the most extreme circumstances.
Come again?  I see EMAS in that statement, not SOAS...
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The runway would be of sufficient length and EMAS would prevent damage in all but the most extreme circumstances.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he said EMAS... but just in case let me look again:
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The runway would be of sufficient length and EMAS would prevent damage in all but the most extreme circumstances.
Yup.  Definately lied through his fucking teeth.

I would be guilty of murder had I blown messierhunter to Kingdom Come.

The underlined word "would" is used here as a conditional.  This can be quite useful. Glad to help.

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Ski

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #336 on: June 30, 2008, 02:59:08 PM »
You lie, madam. He clearly is still alive and you never killed him, wretched woman.

;)


"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #337 on: June 30, 2008, 03:01:19 PM »
I lied through my teeth!  ;D

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uglykidjoe

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #338 on: June 30, 2008, 03:02:58 PM »
I'm hating the fact that "blown" and "teeth" were included in the same thought. 
Well because of your immaturity and unnatural ignorance you have failed at another post.

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MadDogX

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #339 on: June 30, 2008, 03:03:49 PM »
I'm hating the fact that "blown" and "teeth" were included in the same thought. 


Sounds painful.
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I want an Orion slave woman :(
Okay, I admit it.  The earth isn't flat.

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Ski

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #340 on: June 30, 2008, 03:15:35 PM »
I'm sorry, where do you see me asking for civility on your part?  I don't recall giving a fuck how much civility you treat me with.  I'm not really surprised that you're still "standing by" the lie you made in this thread, but for the sake of "letting the readers decide" (oh the ego, he thinks lurkers reading this give a shit about what any of us has to say) here's what you're "standing by."

I tend to believe all people should be treated with civility, even those with a manifestly poor upbringing.
I think anyone with an interest in aviation might be interested in reading this if they can sift through your tenacious defense of the conspiracy. I think I have a reasonable foundation of knowledge to make all the claims I have made. I'm less sure about yourself. You certainly appear to play to the audience rather often. Should I be shocked by your egotism?

"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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messierhunter

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #341 on: July 01, 2008, 10:19:06 AM »

Again, the runway would be of sufficient length. It could land. EMAS would prevent damage in the event of an exceptionally large overshoot. I see nothing disputable here.

EMAS was not invented yet.  You've got a serious problem with honesty.  And by the way, since you were the one that brought up SOAS in the first place (and irrationally lashed out that I needed to be the one to bring it up), why do you think they invented such a system specifically for shuttle landings at TAL sites?  I guess it hasn't crossed your mind that maybe, just maybe they thought it was likely that the shuttle rollout + miss distance would exceed the runway length thereby validating my original concern.  Actually, I'm sure it's crossed your mind, but you refuse to acknowledge it simply because it hurts your original argument against me and you can't afford to allow your ridiculous ego to be bruised.

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Ski

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #342 on: July 01, 2008, 10:20:31 AM »
Why wouldn't they want to increase their safety margin?    ???
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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messierhunter

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #343 on: July 01, 2008, 10:27:23 AM »

I tend to believe all people should be treated with civility, even those with a manifestly poor upbringing.
I believe respect is earned and lost, not assumed.  Nonetheless, I gave you the benefit of respect at first, until you started being downright dishonest.  This is one of those things that we should just agree to disagree on.

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messierhunter

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #344 on: July 01, 2008, 10:29:41 AM »
Why wouldn't they want to increase their safety margin?    ???
Unbelieveable, on the one hand you admit they're doing it for safety reasons but on the other hand you refuse to admit that it's an issue they had to address.  Why wouldn't they use it at Edwards and especially at KSC if they thought there was a need to increase their safety margin on a landing "handled nominally"?  This is the agency that lost two shuttles and 14 astronauts (in the shuttle program alone, and only counting mission losses) because they cut corners and took a bare-minimum safety approach.

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Ski

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #345 on: July 01, 2008, 10:36:39 AM »

Why do they use a drag chute when they are able to land safely at Edwards and Kennedy without it?

"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #346 on: July 01, 2008, 10:50:44 AM »
To assist in braking.  Less wear and tear.

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Ski

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #347 on: July 01, 2008, 10:57:40 AM »
You don't think it has anything to do with safety margin?
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #348 on: July 01, 2008, 11:04:47 AM »
Interweb quote:

The Shuttle Endeavour's first flight in 1992 marked the debut of many new improvements, including a drag chute to assist braking during landing, improved nosewheel steering, lighter and more reliable hydraulic power units, and updates to a variety of avionics equipment. The drag chute (shown in the photo) helps to give the Shuttle a better chance of landing on a short runway in an emergency landing

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Ski

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #349 on: July 01, 2008, 11:06:51 AM »
   :o
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #350 on: July 01, 2008, 02:03:20 PM »
Interweb quote:

The Shuttle Endeavour's first flight in 1992 marked the debut of many new improvements, including a drag chute to assist braking during landing, improved nosewheel steering, lighter and more reliable hydraulic power units, and updates to a variety of avionics equipment. The drag chute (shown in the photo) helps to give the Shuttle a better chance of landing on a short runway in an emergency landing

So you're using this quote because you agree with Ski, I presume?
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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messierhunter

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #351 on: July 01, 2008, 02:56:04 PM »

Why do they use a drag chute when they are able to land safely at Edwards and Kennedy without it?
They didn't use a drag chute until 1992, years after they had already lost 7 astronauts to the shuttle.  SOAS was first set up for use in 1988, during the first flight after the challenger disaster, but only at the TAL sites.  So you didn't answer the question of why they use SOAS at TAL sites but not at KSC or Edwards, and perhaps even more telling, why for those 4 years between 1988 and 1992 didn't they use SOAS as KSC or Edwards but they used it at TAL sites?  If you read the challenger accident investigation report you'll find ample evidence that the investigators had concerns about the shuttle's ability to brake in time, especially at abort sites.  Yes the drag chute helped their safety margin eventually, but its main purpose was to suppliment braking capability at Kennedy, which the investigation decided needed improving.  Despite that, they did indeed land at Kennedy without either a drag chute or a SOAS net after challenger.  They were not nearly as flexible about the abort landing sites, and they made sure that SOAS would be implemented at TAL sites before they went to fly again.

From the recommendations section:

"Landing Safety. NASA must take actions to improve landing safety.

The tire, brake and nosewheel steering systems must be improved. These systems do not have sufficient safety margin, particularly at abort landing sites."

« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 03:01:55 PM by messierhunter »

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Ski

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #352 on: July 01, 2008, 03:00:37 PM »
So it increases the safety margin. Thank you.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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messierhunter

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #353 on: July 01, 2008, 03:01:08 PM »
   :o

That's right ski, be afraid, be very afraid.  According to everything here there was a serious deficiency in the orbiter's ability to safely land at abort sites prior to the development of the drag chute and SOAS.  And again I must ask, why do they only use SOAS at abort sites?  The question here has never been about drag chutes, which again I must add were not implemented almost until the beginning of space station construction and the end of Ascension as a regularly viable TAL site.  The question is whether or not they were more concerned about the ability of a TAL landing to stop in time than they were the ability of a nominal landing to stop in time.  Since SOAS was developed specifically for TAL sites and they were put in place before the shuttle was allowed to fly again, one would have to conclude, yes.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 03:02:42 PM by messierhunter »

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General Douchebag

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #354 on: July 01, 2008, 03:02:35 PM »
tl;dr as with many of your posts. When something of value appears, someone will quote you and I'll read that, but that hasn't happened yet. Do you wonder why?
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Ski

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #355 on: July 01, 2008, 03:04:01 PM »
So it increases the safety margin. Thank you.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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messierhunter

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #356 on: July 01, 2008, 03:05:30 PM »
tl;dr as with many of your posts. When something of value appears, someone will quote you and I'll read that, but that hasn't happened yet. Do you wonder why?
I like to be thorough, this board is the worst I've ever seen for nitpicking a person who didn't go into enough detail.  The refusal of FE'ers to acknowledge evidence stacked against them is a common theme and is not indicative of the validity of one's points.  In fact, when people start quoting an RE'er on here it's almost always to pick them apart, not to acknowledge that they have a point.  I take the lack of attention people pay to me as a compliment.

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messierhunter

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #357 on: July 01, 2008, 03:10:32 PM »
So it increases the safety margin. Thank you.
So they thought landing at TAL sites was more dangerous and prone to end-of-runway problems.  In fact, they thought it so much so that they designed an entire system specifically for those sites and only for those sites.  Just because a drag chute is used for both abort and nominal landings does not mean that they treat both landings equally; their selective use of SOAS and greater concern for TAL landing dangers during the challenger investigation is proof of that, proof you refuse to acknowledge.

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Ski

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #358 on: July 01, 2008, 03:12:15 PM »
They think it was more dangerous. I agreed with them.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Shuttle crashs
« Reply #359 on: July 01, 2008, 05:19:40 PM »
Interweb quote:

The Shuttle Endeavour's first flight in 1992 marked the debut of many new improvements, including a drag chute to assist braking during landing, improved nosewheel steering, lighter and more reliable hydraulic power units, and updates to a variety of avionics equipment. The drag chute (shown in the photo) helps to give the Shuttle a better chance of landing on a short runway in an emergency landing

So you're using this quote because you agree with Ski, I presume?

Remember, even when I do, I don't agree with Ski ;)

I used the quote becuase I found it on a NASA site, and if anyone would know why they put it in there, they would.