flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!

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dozmio

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flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« on: September 30, 2007, 04:49:40 PM »
now i know you guys dont accept google earth as proof....i am not even trying to proof anything with google earth. However this guy tom bishop seems to have "look out your window" as his only proof...but i am not entirely sure what his trying to proof with it. Its because i see flat horizon that i should belief earth is flat too? Thats just naive.....heres a pic i made with google earth: http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/9812/googleearthpicwf7.png

now its just to show how you cant see the curvature from ground level...its not trying to really proof anything....just show that flat horizon is what you see in round earth because of earths size..

feel free to comment.....(and also try this out yourself as a experiment.....google earth is free  ::))
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 04:51:24 PM by dozmio »

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2007, 02:38:25 AM »
*sigh* google earth isn't evidence you dimwit
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divito the truthist

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2007, 03:27:07 AM »
His "I look out my window" comment is the usual response to asking why anyone would believe that the Earth is round. For instance:

"How can you believe the Earth is flat?!?"

"I look out my window, and it is flat."
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sirust

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2007, 03:02:58 PM »
However this guy tom bishop seems to have "look out your window" as his only proof...but i am not entirely sure what his trying to proof with it. Its because i see flat horizon that i should belief earth is flat too? Thats just naive...

His "I look out my window" comment is the usual response to asking why anyone would believe that the Earth is round. For instance:

"How can you believe the Earth is flat?!?"

"I look out my window, and it is flat."


It doesn't make sense to me.  Here is an image I made to help explain what I mean.


The blue "sphere" represents earth.

The radius of the black circle represents the distance you(out your window or as far out in the ocean, it hardly makes a difference) can see in all directions.  But of course In comparison to the size of the earth this circle or ring in reality would be much much smaller so use your imagination to see that the circle would be extremely small on the sphere(earth) in this image.  I wanted to make sure you could understand what I meant so I made the size of the circle a bit more comfortably visible.

So, in that little circle on the sphere it is such a small part of the sphere that it is hard to tell if there is any curve to the sphere at all.  Especially If you are not near water It would be impossible to tell with there always being a slight change in elevation with land.  So being at a beach would make more sense because water has a less dramatic change in it's highth.  Still the horizon is flat and all the water seems flat.  This is still because of you only being able to see such a small location of the earth that you cannot possibly tell that it is a sphere from the ground.

In conclusion "looking out your window" or actually look as far as you possibly can from on top of the tallest building or at the beach, This would not be relevant to if the world is flat or round.  Because it proves both.  What it does tell us is that we only see so much because of us being so small compared to the earth.
All glory to the hypnotoad.

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Gulliver

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2007, 03:20:16 PM »
However this guy tom bishop seems to have "look out your window" as his only proof...but i am not entirely sure what his trying to proof with it. Its because i see flat horizon that i should belief earth is flat too? Thats just naive...

His "I look out my window" comment is the usual response to asking why anyone would believe that the Earth is round. For instance:

"How can you believe the Earth is flat?!?"

"I look out my window, and it is flat."


It doesn't make sense to me.  Here is an image I made to help explain what I mean....
The blue "sphere" represents earth.

The radius of the black circle represents the distance you(out your window or as far out in the ocean, it hardly makes a difference) can see in all directions.  But of course In comparison to the size of the earth this circle or ring in reality would be much much smaller so use your imagination to see that the circle would be extremely small on the sphere(earth) in this image.  I wanted to make sure you could understand what I meant so I made the size of the circle a bit more comfortably visible.

So, in that little circle on the sphere it is such a small part of the sphere that it is hard to tell if there is any curve to the sphere at all.  Especially If you are not near water It would be impossible to tell with there always being a slight change in elevation with land.  So being at a beach would make more sense because water has a less dramatic change in it's highth.  Still the horizon is flat and all the water seems flat.  This is still because of you only being able to see such a small location of the earth that you cannot possibly tell that it is a sphere from the ground.

In conclusion "looking out your window" or actually look as far as you possibly can from on top of the tallest building or at the beach, This would not be relevant to if the world is flat or round.  Because it proves both.  What it does tell us is that we only see so much because of us being so small compared to the earth.
FWIW, Experiment #0001 in The RE Primer proves this mathematically as well.

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dozmio

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2007, 07:23:10 AM »
*sigh* google earth isn't evidence you dimwit

didnīt i mention it in the first post that this was only supposed to be a little example of how you can see flat horizon in round earth.....(since the 3D model of google earth is pretty much confirmed to be round  :P).....i didnīt mean it to be evidence in the first place...

read more carefully and atleast try to understand what post says before calling people dimwit..........dimwit!

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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2007, 03:55:00 AM »
I don't like to read
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Gerbil

Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2007, 02:16:28 PM »
Quote


The blue "sphere" represents earth.

The radius of the black circle represents the distance you(out your window or as far out in the ocean, it hardly makes a difference) can see in all directions.  But of course In comparison to the size of the earth this circle or ring in reality would be much much smaller so use your imagination to see that the circle would be extremely small on the sphere(earth) in this image.  I wanted to make sure you could understand what I meant so I made the size of the circle a bit more comfortably visible.

So, in that little circle on the sphere it is such a small part of the sphere that it is hard to tell if there is any curve to the sphere at all.  Especially If you are not near water It would be impossible to tell with there always being a slight change in elevation with land.  So being at a beach would make more sense because water has a less dramatic change in it's highth.  Still the horizon is flat and all the water seems flat.  This is still because of you only being able to see such a small location of the earth that you cannot possibly tell that it is a sphere from the ground.

In conclusion "looking out your window" or actually look as far as you possibly can from on top of the tallest building or at the beach, This would not be relevant to if the world is flat or round.  Because it proves both.  What it does tell us is that we only see so much because of us being so small compared to the earth.

Adding to this guy's argument, I found some pictures for you FE'ers to try to explain.

(It's from a plane)
How do you explain the clouds appearing to be curved when simple weather dynamics and condensation laws tell you that all clouds in a single cloud bank are at the same altitude? Unless there is some kind of 'bubble' in lower air masses forcing these cloud banks upwards in a bulge (every time this phenomena is observed), these clouds are flying at the same altitude over a curved Earth!


This is near as high as you are going to get outside of an airplane, the top deck of the CN tower in Toronto, Canada. It isn't quite high enough for the curvature of the Earth to be glaringly obvious, but if you look closer you can see the horizon dropping off to the left and right. Open the image in a graphics program and check the location of the pixels, the center of the horizon is higher then the edges.

I guess somebody painted this?

http://lasp.colorado.edu/rocket/Rocket_Movie_4flat.mov
This is a link to a video of a rocket reentering the atmosphere - from the rocket. It spins around a lot, I know, but if you slow down the video or pause it you can CLEARLY see the Earth curving and make out the Persian Gulf getting closer.


Another photo from a plane, the Earth's curve is visible.

Unless you guys are suggesting that there is some king of massive conspiracy involving anybody who ever traveled on an aircraft, a very large group of extremely talented artists, and every government that ever spent money on space travel/exploration (they are posting images and movies of a round Earth)), the visual evidence here is pretty much incontrovertible.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 02:38:32 PM by Gerbil »

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The Communist

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2007, 08:10:21 AM »
Your query can be answered here.
On FES, you attack a strawman. In Soviet Russia, the strawman attacks you
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Do you have any outlandish claims to back up your evidence?
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Gerbil

Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2007, 12:41:42 PM »
As I clicked that link I had as sense of impending doom. (e.g limeparty.org or a screamer)
Seriously though, that was pretty pointless. If you aren't interested in debating, don't post here.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2007, 08:55:55 PM »

I guess somebody painted this?

Well, sure.  You can see the signature just to the right of "Antarctica".   ::)
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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The Communist

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2007, 08:32:16 AM »
As I clicked that link I had as sense of impending doom. (e.g limeparty.org or a screamer)
Seriously though, that was pretty pointless. If you aren't interested in debating, don't post here.

What is there to debate.  The pictures were taken with a wide-angle lens.  And the blue marble designed by NASA is an edited picture, which NASA confirms to be edited.
On FES, you attack a strawman. In Soviet Russia, the strawman attacks you
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Gulliver

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2007, 08:35:10 AM »
As I clicked that link I had as sense of impending doom. (e.g limeparty.org or a screamer)
Seriously though, that was pretty pointless. If you aren't interested in debating, don't post here.

What is there to debate.  The pictures were taken with a wide-angle lens.  And the blue marble designed by NASA is an edited picture, which NASA confirms to be edited.
Can anyone explain to me the reason that FEers impugn photo taken with a wide-angle lens?

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Dioptimus Drime

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2007, 11:43:30 AM »
Camera lenses aren't perfect. Find a way to take a perfect, wide picture with a completely flat lens, and I'm sure you will make photographers jizz.

~D-Draw

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Gulliver

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2007, 02:13:27 PM »
Camera lenses aren't perfect. Find a way to take a perfect, wide picture with a completely flat lens, and I'm sure you will make photographers jizz.

~D-Draw
So how does that justify the FE stance that wide-angle lens can't be used for taking photographic evidence? So what if they're not perfect?

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Misfortune

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2007, 02:33:09 PM »
Lol wow, some very good proof of RE has been posted on this topic now, and all you can say "Maybe the camera's lens just fails"? Oh, seriously.


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Tom Bishop

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2007, 02:37:46 PM »
Lol wow, some very good proof of RE has been posted on this topic now, and all you can say "Maybe the camera's lens just fails"? Oh, seriously.

We've had pilots on this forum tell us that they've personally never seen curvature to the earth in flight.

I've been on many flights myself and I've never seen curvature to the earth.

From the top of Mt. Everest the earth is still flat. See this panorama: http://www.panoramas.dk/fullscreen2/full22.html

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Misfortune

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2007, 02:47:20 PM »
We've had pilots on this forum tell us that they've personally never seen curvature to the earth in flight.
Or maybe they lied.
Quote
I've been on many flights myself and I've never seen curvature to the earth.
Maybe it's a conspiracy. Maybe there are no windows in planes, maybe they're just TV screens.
Quote
From the top of Mt. Everest the earth is still flat. See this panorama: http://www.panoramas.dk/fullscreen2/full22.html
Camera's lens is not perfect. Duh. Maybe it's a conspiracy by lens makers.

...Or maybe none of those conspiracies exist and maybe earth is round.


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Dead Kangaroo

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2007, 02:48:14 PM »
I've been on many flights myself and I've never seen curvature to the earth.
Your altitude was too low, besides that your personal experinces don't count because you're delusional and full of shit.

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Gulliver

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2007, 02:50:51 PM »
Lol wow, some very good proof of RE has been posted on this topic now, and all you can say "Maybe the camera's lens just fails"? Oh, seriously.

We've had pilots on this forum tell us that they've personally never seen curvature to the earth in flight.

I've been on many flights myself and I've never seen curvature to the earth.

From the top of Mt. Everest the earth is still flat. See this panorama: http://www.panoramas.dk/fullscreen2/full22.html
False. From the top of Mount Everest the Earth is clearly curved. Furthermore, ask any pilot if the horizon is at eye-level. Furthermore, just look for yourself. You've already proven to us that the horizon is not always at eye-level, proving that the Earth is a globe.

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Contipheral

Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2007, 04:24:23 PM »
Camera lenses aren't perfect. Find a way to take a perfect, wide picture with a completely flat lens, and I'm sure you will make photographers jizz.

~D-Draw

Are my eyes wide-angle camera lenses that aren't perfect? Are they lying to me too? I can see a curve when I'm in a plane.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2007, 04:51:06 PM »
Quote
False. From the top of Mount Everest the Earth is clearly curved. Furthermore, ask any pilot if the horizon is at eye-level. Furthermore, just look for yourself. You've already proven to us that the horizon is not always at eye-level, proving that the Earth is a globe.

Perhaps, then, you should point out the curvature of the earth in the Mt. Everest panorama I've provided.

We have a pilot here on this forum who tells us that the earth is flat from flying altitudes. Here are direct quotes from TheEngineer:

Quote
I'm a pilot.  I've never seen this curvature.

Quote
>>> And as for needing experiments that you can reproduce, why dont you learn how to fly a plane and see for yourself ! ! !

I have learned.  But I was greatly disappointed when I saw no curvature.

Quote
I fly a lot and have never seen this 'curvature'.

Quote
I fly a lot and have never seen the curvature of the earth.

>> Really? So, you have never looked out the window before? Because it is clearly there.

>>> Seeing as I am the one doing the flying, it's really hard to not look out the window.

Quote
I've flown hundreds of times, both over land and water, and have never witnessed this 'curvature'.

Quote
I have never seen the curvature of the earth in flight.

Quote
>>is that a presumption or have you actually seen it with your own eyes (as have i)?

>>>I am a pilot.  I fly a lot and have never witnessed the earth to be curved.

Quote
I have flown in a plane many times and have never seen curvature of the Earth. The answers to most of your questions should have been in the FAQ.

Quote
I've flown on commercial airlines many times and never seen the Earth's curvature (as you can imagine, I have specifically looked for it instead of giving a cursory glance).

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Gulliver

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2007, 05:49:24 PM »
Quote
False. From the top of Mount Everest the Earth is clearly curved. Furthermore, ask any pilot if the horizon is at eye-level. Furthermore, just look for yourself. You've already proven to us that the horizon is not always at eye-level, proving that the Earth is a globe.

Perhaps, then, you should point out the curvature of the earth in the Mt. Everest panorama I've provided.
...
Sure, here you go. Using Gimp 2.0, I sampled the horizon, recording the horizontal and vertical displacement. The results demonstrate that the horizon is curved as RE predicts.

X   Y
7   438
66   435
104   435
104   435
110   435
113   435
128   434
140   434
159   434
160   434
180   433
182   433
197   433
200   434
236   433
244   433
275   433
281   433
308   433
311   433
314   432
318   433
338   432
347   432
352   432
358   432
366   432
370   432
371   432
380   432
387   432
395   432
400   432
417   432
424   432
425   432
455   432
466   432
478   432
478   431
483   432
494   431
496   430
519   430
520   430
529   433
533   431
548   432
562   433
573   430
587   430
589   430
592   430
604   432
626   433
684   433
765   432
856   433
915   434
967   435
997   436
1000   436
1020   436

The image I used:



taken as a screen shot of the panorama.

Oh, and stop avoiding the challenge. Do pilots see the horizon at eye-level at significant height over the ocean? I really don't care what TheEngineer says.

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Gulliver

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2007, 06:35:30 PM »
Also here's TomB's posted picture showing the curved horizon:


Reference: Sable-3

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Torn Bishop

Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2007, 06:47:04 PM »
Camera lenses aren't perfect. Find a way to take a perfect, wide picture with a completely flat lens, and I'm sure you will make photographers jizz.

~D-Draw
Flat-bed scanners can be rigged as panoramic cameras. -link-

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Gulliver

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2007, 06:56:56 PM »
Camera lenses aren't perfect. Find a way to take a perfect, wide picture with a completely flat lens, and I'm sure you will make photographers jizz.

~D-Draw
Flat-bed scanners can be rigged as panoramic cameras. -link-
That's cool!

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Tom Bishop

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2007, 06:59:46 PM »
Quote
Sure, here you go. Using Gimp 2.0, I sampled the horizon, recording the horizontal and vertical displacement. The results demonstrate that the horizon is curved as RE predicts.

Oh don't give me that bull hokey. Do you really need me to walk you through drawing a line across that horizon in MSPaint?

As for that Sable-3 image, that's exactly the type of horizon one would expect when looking down at a large flat circle. The horizon from the edge of space 80 miles up takes the form of an elliptical curve, exactly what one would expect when looking down at a large flat circle.

If the earth were a globe, curving downwards in all directions, then the horizon's curvature as seen from space would take the form of an arc of a circle. It doesn't.

And if we look at the Sable-3 images and squint hard enough we can see the distant continents of the earth, located tens of thousands of miles away from the camera, almost beyond the resolution of the human eye, faded with the atmosphere, practically merged with the horizon line.

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Dead Kangaroo

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2007, 07:07:14 PM »
As for that Sable-3 image, that's exactly the type of horizon one would expect when looking down at a large flat circle. The horizon from the edge of space 80 miles up takes the form of an elliptical curve, exactly what one would expect when looking down at a large flat circle.
Except you believe in a infinite snow plane around the earth.

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Gulliver

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2007, 07:16:06 PM »
Quote
Sure, here you go. Using Gimp 2.0, I sampled the horizon, recording the horizontal and vertical displacement. The results demonstrate that the horizon is curved as RE predicts.

Oh don't give me that bull hokey. Do you really need me to walk you through drawing a line across that horizon in MSPaint?

As for that Sable-3 image, that's exactly the type of horizon one would expect when looking down at a large flat circle. The horizon from the edge of space 80 miles up takes the form of an elliptical curve, exactly what one would expect when looking down at a large flat circle.

If the earth were a globe, curving downwards in all directions, then the horizon's curvature as seen from space would take the form of an arc of a circle. It doesn't.

And if we look at the Sable-3 images and squint hard enough we can see the distant continents of the earth, located tens of thousands of miles away from the camera, almost beyond the resolution of the human eye, faded with the atmosphere, practically merged with the horizon line.
Go ahead and draw a one pixel line across the horizon. I'll then show you how the line passes under and over the horizon. Really I don't mind the effort. Just like I proved that your telescope and camera has a compatible mount, I'll show you wrong again.

On Sable-3, first of all it's only 20 miles up. Next, since you claim that you can see continents in the image, by squinting, please tell us which ones. Next, don't forget that we've determined the direction, height, and date of the photograph and then tell us how an infinite plan could ever provide a curved horizon.

Looks like it's another bad day for TomB!

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Gulliver

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Re: flat horizon means flat earth.....wrong!
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2007, 07:17:07 PM »
Quote
Sure, here you go. Using Gimp 2.0, I sampled the horizon, recording the horizontal and vertical displacement. The results demonstrate that the horizon is curved as RE predicts.
...
If the earth were a globe, curving downwards in all directions, then the horizon's curvature as seen from space would take the form of an arc of a circle. It doesn't.
...
Prove your claim.