Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels

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cmdshft

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Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #90 on: July 17, 2007, 09:17:37 PM »
TEH EATHZ IZ FLATTNING!!!!!!111 W00T1!!!!!!!!!!!11111

This post made me smile.

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The Communist

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Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #91 on: July 19, 2007, 08:36:45 PM »
Proof why CO2 isn't all what scientisitst are porposing it could do:
http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm

Why do we want to produce more CO2?: Increased plant life, especially since certain parts of the world are suffering from famine.

If carbon monoxide is supposedly acting as an insulator to trap radiated heat from the sun, a greater temperature differential will exist between the atmosphere and space.  With a increase in temperature differential, an increase in the flow rate of radiated heat from the atmosphere into space ensues (thus a more stabilized temperature).  This is proof that temperature increase is not significantly linked to carbon dioxide, as GW proponents believe.  Also, the ensuing plant growth do to higher concentrations of carbon dioxide will absorb more of this carbon dioxide and produce more oxygen (so we can breath and burn more stuff) and fuel (also burn more stuff).  Also, such high predictions of carbon dioxide concentrations in the by GW would result large quantities of fuel (via more plant life) and thus gradually decreasing fuel prices (which are not occurring).
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Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #92 on: July 19, 2007, 08:54:19 PM »
Proof why CO2 isn't all what scientisitst are porposing it could do:
http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm

Why do we want to produce more CO2?: Increased plant life, especially since certain parts of the world are suffering from famine.

If carbon monoxide is supposedly acting as an insulator to trap radiated heat from the sun, a greater temperature differential will exist between the atmosphere and space.  With a increase in temperature differential, an increase in the flow rate of radiated heat from the atmosphere into space ensues (thus a more stabilized temperature).  This is proof that temperature increase is not significantly linked to carbon dioxide, as GW proponents believe.  Also, the ensuing plant growth do to higher concentrations of carbon dioxide will absorb more of this carbon dioxide and produce more oxygen (so we can breath and burn more stuff) and fuel (also burn more stuff).  Also, such high predictions of carbon dioxide concentrations in the by GW would result large quantities of fuel (via more plant life) and thus gradually decreasing fuel prices (which are not occurring).

Presumably you haven't actually solved the heat equation. Presumably also, you don't actually know much about dynamical systems. Or logic. Let's simplify your argument:
-CO2 reduces heat loss, causing less heat to be transferred from Earth to space
-Hence, more heat will be transferred from Earth to space

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The Communist

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Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #93 on: July 20, 2007, 05:46:27 AM »
Here are some key quotes that I want to debate from the previously posted site:

"Predictions of global warming are based on computer climate modeling, a branch of science still in its infancy. The empirical evidence actual measurements of Earth's temperature shows no man-made warming trend. Indeed, over the past two decades, when CO2 levels have been at their highest, global average temperatures have actually cooled slightly."

"The current increase in carbon dioxide follows a 300-year warming trend: Surface and atmospheric temperatures have been recovering from an unusually cold period known as the Little Ice Age. The observed increases are of a magnitude that can, for example, be explained by oceans giving off gases naturally as temperatures rise. Indeed, recent carbon dioxide rises have shown a tendency to follow rather than lead global temperature increases."

"In the troposphere, greenhouse-gas-induced temperature changes are expected to be at least as large as at the surface...While tropospheric temperatures have trended downward during the past 19 years by about 0.05 ºC per decade, it has been reported that global surface temperatures trended upward by about 0.1 ºC per decade (21, 22). In contrast to tropospheric temperatures, however, surface temperatures are subject to large uncertainties for several reasons, including the urban heat island effect."
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The Communist

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Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #94 on: July 20, 2007, 05:57:14 AM »

Presumably you haven't actually solved the heat equation. Presumably also, you don't actually know much about dynamical systems. Or logic. Let's simplify your argument:
-CO2 reduces heat loss, causing less heat to be transferred from Earth to space
-Hence, more heat will be transferred from Earth to space

Presumably, you haven't read the article. CO2 is shown to be lead overall by temperature change of surface temperatures, not vice versa.  Keep in mind surface temperatures are subject to numerous uncertanities. However, throughout CO2 emission increases over the past decades, tropospheric temperatures, which are also subject to GHGs, have been reduced , as shown below:

Source: www.oism.org

Edit - In regards for the heat equation:Look up diffusion.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2007, 06:02:04 AM by The Kommunist »
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GeoGuy

Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #95 on: July 20, 2007, 08:20:24 AM »

"Predictions of global warming are based on computer climate modeling, a branch of science still in its infancy. The empirical evidence actual measurements of Earth's temperature shows no man-made warming trend. Indeed, over the past two decades, when CO2 levels have been at their highest, global average temperatures have actually cooled slightly."

It's true that the science of climate modeling is still somewhat young. But we cannot infer from this, as the quote wishes us to, that it is therefore not to be trusted. As I've mentioned before, scientists can test the accuracy of any given climate model by running it against past climate data. If the model doesn't match the observed changes during that time, it's scrapped.

And the claim that global average temperatures have cooled slightly is a complete fabrication. This becomes painfully obvious when you look at any temperature record of the past few decades. The climate has been warming exactly as predicted.

But even if we assume for a moment that there has been a recent cooling trend in global mean temperatures, the quote is still very misleading. It implies that global warming theory assumes that CO2 is the only driver of climate. Which is again completely and utterly false. There are a great many things, anthropogenic and otherwise, that could result in a cooling trend. A rise in aerosol use and other particulate pollutants, as well as a rise in volcanic activity briefly overwhelmed the CO2 signal and was responsible for the slight cooling trend seen from the 1940's through the early 70's, for example.

Quote
"The current increase in carbon dioxide follows a 300-year warming trend: Surface and atmospheric temperatures have been recovering from an unusually cold period known as the Little Ice Age. The observed increases are of a magnitude that can, for example, be explained by oceans giving off gases naturally as temperatures rise. Indeed, recent carbon dioxide rises have shown a tendency to follow rather than lead global temperature increases."

If I'm getting this right, their argument (the part in bold) goes something like this:

What they said:
"In the past, temperatures lead rises in CO2."
 
What we're meant to infer:
"Therefore CO2 cannot drive climate."

The argument is simply faulty mathematical reasoning:

Set A intersects set B
Set B does not intersect set C
Therefore Set A cannot intersect set C.

That CO2 is a feedback does not negate it from also being a forcing in any way, in much the same way that the lack of intersection between set B and set C tell us nothing about the relationship between set A and set C.

 The fact is that past changes were mostly caused by variations in Earth's orbit called Milankovitch Cycles. These variations cause changes in the total amount of radiation that reaches Earth's surface, and thus forces the climate. Obviously these cycles had nothing to do with carbon dioxide so we shouldn't expect to see it lead temperatures.

We are also meant to infer that a rise in temperatures causes a rise in atmospheric CO2, which is true, but misleading. As the global temperature starts to increase (such as when Earth enters a Milankovitch Cycle) more and more CO2 is released from the world's oceans (a process which is mentioned in the article), because carbon dioxide is less soluble in warm water. This extra CO2 in the atmosphere increases the greenhouse effect and drives temperatures even higher.

This is completely different than what is happening today. This particular change has been driven almost entirely by changes in atmospheric carbon dioxide, which has most certainly not lagged behind temperatures.

Quote
"In the troposphere, greenhouse-gas-induced temperature changes are expected to be at least as large as at the surface...While tropospheric temperatures have trended downward during the past 19 years by about 0.05 ºC per decade, it has been reported that global surface temperatures trended upward by about 0.1 ºC per decade (21, 22). In contrast to tropospheric temperatures, however, surface temperatures are subject to large uncertainties for several reasons, including the urban heat island effect."

The urban heat island effect is well understand and factored in to every direct surface temperature measurement. The idea that scientists have somehow 'missed it' is absurd.

I don't know a great deal about this subject, so as opposed to saying something stupid and misrepresenting the science I'll just link you to a wonderful article from the folks at RealClimate discussing the UHI effect.

Also, the discrepancy in the surface and troposphere temperature measurements was primarily due to arithmetic errors and have largely been reconciled. Here's a statement (taken from the US CCSP report executive summary) from the scientist who made the claim mentioned in your article in the first place:

"Previously reported discrepancies between the amount of warming near the surface and higher in the atmosphere have been used to challenge the reliability of climate models and the reality of human induced global warming. Specifically, surface data showed substantial global-average warming, while early versions of satellite and radiosonde data showed little or no warming above the surface. This significant discrepancy no longer exists because errors in the satellite and radiosonde data have been identified and corrected. New data sets have also been developed that do not show such discrepancies."

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Proof why CO2 isn't all what scientisitst are porposing it could do:
http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm

Ignoring for the moment the fact that it is nearly nine years old (which is well before the IPCC AR 3 and 4 were released), and based on old and faulty data, the Oregon Petition is mostly irrelevant. A sample of the scientists who signed it, taken by Scientific American, found that out of the 26 subjects reviewed, "11 said they still agreed with the petition, one was an active climate researcher, two others had relevant expertise, and eight signed based on an informal evaluation. Six said they would not sign the petition today, three did not remember any such petition, one had died, and five did not answer repeated messages." They also roughly calculated that, of the 17,000 who signed the report, less than 200 were climate scientists. According the American Geophysical Union, ("If you ain't a member of the AGU you ain't no damn climate scientist in the US!" -Eli Rabett), there are approximately 20,000 climate scientists working worldwide, so the number in the OP represents a very small fraction of the climate science community.

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Finally, your claims that an increase in CO2 will increase plant production are false as well. The simple fact is that carbon dioxide is not the limiting factor to plant growth. There is more than enough of it in the air already. Adding more isn't going to do a bloody thing. Any small effect it might have would be completely eclipsed by other, more important, factors such as climate, geography, soil quality, etc.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2007, 08:46:09 AM by GeoGuy »

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The Communist

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Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #96 on: July 20, 2007, 09:54:31 AM »
It's true that the science of climate modeling is still somewhat young. But we cannot infer from this, as the quote wishes us to, that it is therefore not to be trusted. As I've mentioned before, scientists can test the accuracy of any given climate model by running it against past climate data. If the model doesn't match the observed changes during that time, it's scrapped.

And the claim that global average temperatures have cooled slightly is a complete fabrication. This becomes painfully obvious when you look at any temperature record of the past few decades. The climate has been warming exactly as predicted.

But even if we assume for a moment that there has been a recent cooling trend in global mean temperatures, the quote is still very misleading. It implies that global warming theory assumes that CO2 is the only driver of climate. Which is again completely and utterly false. There are a great many things, anthropogenic and otherwise, that could result in a cooling trend. A rise in aerosol use and other particulate pollutants, as well as a rise in volcanic activity briefly overwhelmed the CO2 signal and was responsible for the slight cooling trend seen from the 1940's through the early 70's, for example.

If troposphere temperatures are subject to discrepancies by such a large magin, then the techniques used to measure surface atmosphere would have large discrepancies too.  These discrepancies are magnified using computer models for predicting.

Also, If GW quacks do believe in other factors, than why do these people propose to governments to reduce GHG emissions, even though they contribute very minimally to climate change, especially anthropogenic GHG emissions.

Quote
The argument is simply faulty mathematical reasoning:

Set A intersects set B
Set B does not intersect set C
Therefore Set A cannot intersect set C.

It did not suggest A (temperature) cannot intersect C (climate), when we know temperature does intersect climate.  Its just stating how an increase in temperature, which affects climate change, raises the amount of CO2, which minimally affects climate.

Quote
Ignoring for the moment the fact that it is nearly nine years old (which is well before the IPCC AR 3 and 4 were released), and based on old and faulty data, the Oregon Petition is mostly irrelevant. A sample of the scientists who signed it, taken by Scientific American, found that out of the 26 subjects reviewed, "11 said they still agreed with the petition, one was an active climate researcher, two others had relevant expertise, and eight signed based on an informal evaluation. Six said they would not sign the petition today, three did not remember any such petition, one had died, and five did not answer repeated messages." They also roughly calculated that, of the 17,000 who signed the report, less than 200 were climate scientists. According the American Geophysical Union, ("If you ain't a member of the AGU you ain't no damn climate scientist in the US!" -Eli Rabett), there are approximately 20,000 climate scientists working worldwide, so the number in the OP represents a very small fraction of the climate science community.

If there are 20,000 climate scientists, presumably who all beliveve in GW, they are not a large proportion compared to the 17,200 scientists that signed the petition as well as others who believe GW is discredited.  Despite being 9 years old it is still active and updating.

Quote

Finally, your claims that an increase in CO2 will increase plant production are false as well
. The simple fact is that carbon dioxide is not the limiting factor to plant growth. There is more than enough of it in the air already. Adding more isn't going to do a bloody thing. Any small effect it might have would be completely eclipsed by other, more important, factors such as climate, geography, soil quality, etc.
http://homeharvest.com/carbondioxideenrichment.htm
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GeoGuy

Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #97 on: July 20, 2007, 11:06:02 AM »

If troposphere temperatures are subject to discrepancies by such a large magin, then the techniques used to measure surface atmosphere would have large discrepancies too.  These discrepancies are magnified using computer models for predicting.

The measurement used to support the discrepancy between the troposphere and surface temperature were satellite readings. It was later discovered that there were flaws in the methods used to take said satellite readings. When these flaws were corrected the satellite readings showed the same warming pattern as any other method (say, direct surface temperature analysis). These other methods do not have an invalidatingly (my new word) high margin of error.

I really do wish you'd stop making stuff up just because it sounds good. It would make this whole discussion run a lot more smoothly.

It is also completely irrelevant to model predictions whether the temperature record is flawed or not. Climate models are completely physics based. Input of this sort of data is not needed. Just what exactly do you think a climate model is?

Quote
Also, If GW quacks do believe in other factors, than why do these people propose to governments to reduce GHG emissions, even though they contribute very minimally to climate change, especially anthropogenic GHG emissions.

Because carbon dioxide and other GHG emissions are the primary drivers of this change.

Quote
It did not suggest A (temperature) cannot intersect C (climate), when we know temperature does intersect climate.  Its just stating how an increase in temperature, which affects climate change, raises the amount of CO2, which minimally affects climate.

That's not what I was talking about. The quote you gave attempted to suggest that because some past changes were not 'kicked off' by carbon dioxide emissions that carbon dioxide must be unable to affect climate. The fact that CO2 acts as a feedback in no way diminishes its capacity to drive climate change. Past changes were partly or fully driven by changes in CO2 levels, regardless of whether they were starded by them. This current change, however, is not only being driven by carbon dioxide, it was started by it as well.

I would like to see some evidence suggesting that carbon dioxide has a minimal effect on climate.


Quote
If there are 20,000 climate scientists, presumably who all beliveve in GW, they are not a large proportion compared to the 17,200 scientists that signed the petition as well as others who believe GW is discredited.  Despite being 9 years old it is still active and updating.

A meaningless comparison. The ratio of non-climate scientists to climate scienitsts in the US tells us nothing except that very few actual climate scientists signed the report, and lots of scientists with no expertise in the field did. I would estimate that there are at the very least 150,000 scientists in the US (which is probably a conservative estimate). So again the 17,000 are a very small percentage.

And yes, despite being old and horribly outdated it is still being used by global warming "skeptics" to dismiss the overhwelming support of the theory in the scientific community.

Quote

http://homeharvest.com/carbondioxideenrichment.htm

You missed the main point of my argument (remember what I said about chopping paragraphs into tiny pieces?). I never said that carbon dioxide wasn't essential to plant growth, or that added CO2 cannot help plant growth. I said that atmospheric CO2 levels were not the limiting factor to it. I said that adding more CO2 to the atmosphere is not going ot have much net effet on plant growth since there are far more important factors limiting it already. If the size of a plant is restricted by its latitude adding more CO2 to the air isn't going to change that. If the reproductive period for a plant is restricted due to precipitation throwing more CO2 at it isn't going to change that.

In short, CO2 is benificial to plant growth but not the primary condition of it.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2007, 11:11:59 AM by GeoGuy »

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cmdshft

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Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #98 on: July 20, 2007, 12:42:37 PM »
I love seeing in depth, overly drawn out, expletive posts.

In other words: tl;dr

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GeoGuy

Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #99 on: July 20, 2007, 04:32:17 PM »
Oh come on now Hara, my post was, like, four paragraphs long. If you can't handle that you fail at the readings.

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Raist

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Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #100 on: July 20, 2007, 06:20:59 PM »
Oh come on now Hara, my post was, like, four paragraphs long. If you can't handle that you fail at the readings.

It was long enough i didn't bother to read it. Keep posts short and to the point if you want them read.

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cmdshft

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Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #101 on: July 20, 2007, 06:40:19 PM »
Oh come on now Hara, my post was, like, four paragraphs long. If you can't handle that you fail at the readings.

I can read quite well, actually. I just chose not read an essay on a forum on a topic that cannot be won right now.

Keep posts short and to the point if you want them read.

Bingo.

So again, tl;dr.

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GeoGuy

Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #102 on: July 20, 2007, 07:22:13 PM »
I posit that my post was short and to the point. You two, having not taken the minute or so required to read it, are in no position to say. So you both fail. At success. I hope you're pleased with yourselves.

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Raist

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Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #103 on: July 20, 2007, 09:12:58 PM »
I posit that my post was short and to the point. You two, having not taken the minute or so required to read it, are in no position to say. So you both fail. At success. I hope you're pleased with yourselves.

I can ascertain length without reading your post. scrolling past it was enough work for me.

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GeoGuy

Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #104 on: July 21, 2007, 03:15:49 PM »
You can only ascertain by scrolling past it that it was long compared to, say, a post reading 'OMG!11! gloable wamring is so not hapening lol!'. Having not read it you cannot possibly know whether it is of appropriate length and scope for the subject at hand. I say it was.

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Raist

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Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #105 on: July 21, 2007, 05:11:32 PM »
Well would you like an award for judging your own work suitable? Because i still feel no need to go back and read through all that crap to hear your point. Perhaps you should consider the fact that most people aren't SUPER DEE DUPER interested in your point and you may have to attract them to read it. Perhaps by breaking summarizing your thoughts and explaining later.

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GeoGuy

Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #106 on: July 21, 2007, 05:40:20 PM »
You've wasted more time arguing about whether or not my post was too long than you would have by simply reading it in the first place. But whatevs. If you say you want a summarization, a summarization is what you'll get.

1. I say that the discrepancy between satellite temperature measurements and direct surface temperature measurements was due to arithmetic errors and has been corrected.

2. I say that carbon dioxide is a very potent greenhouse gas and is fully or mostly responsible for the warming trend seen over the past century.

3. I say that the Oregon Petition, while not exactly fraudulent, is completely irrelevant and very misleading.

5. I say that CO2 is not the limiting factor to plant growth. And that increased levels of CO2 in the air will not have any noticeable effect on it.

Ok, you know what my post said without even reading it. Now, tell me how convincing the statements I made were without any elaboration to back them up. Not very, I bet. That's why my post was long. That's why I win the Dan Kuykendall Memorial Award For Excellence In The Field Of Unnecessary Loquaciousness.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2007, 05:44:36 PM by GeoGuy »

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Raist

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Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #107 on: July 21, 2007, 05:42:30 PM »
I read the first paragraph and got bored. It's not the amount of time it's the principle of the thing. Why should you get such a large chunk of my life so i can read your opinion. If you don't want to reduce your thoughts to 3 or 4 sentences for my convenience then i won't read your opinions.

I love the internets. yes both of them.

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GeoGuy

Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #108 on: July 21, 2007, 06:12:02 PM »
I do not care whether you are bored or not. I am not responsible for keeping you entertained. This is an Internet forum. Its sole purpose is to provide a place for people to express their opinions. If you do not wish to read them then I suggest you leave.

And by the way, start responding to me in six words or less before I loose interest.

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Raist

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Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #109 on: July 21, 2007, 06:14:00 PM »
I do not care whether you are bored or not. I am not responsible for keeping you entertained. This is an Internet forum. Its sole purpose is to provide a place for people to express their opinions. If you do not wish to read them then I suggest you leave.

And by the way, start responding to me in six words or less before I loose interest.


Unoriginal and incongruent. As you asked.

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EvilToothpaste

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Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #110 on: July 21, 2007, 10:48:22 PM »
"Global Warning causes panic and questions: warning for what?"

Has that joke been made? 

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GeoGuy

Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #111 on: July 23, 2007, 07:01:48 PM »
No, it was only hinted at. So you win thirty-two victory points. Congratulations.

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beast

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Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #112 on: July 23, 2007, 07:06:53 PM »
Fuck, what's with the anti intellectuals on this forum?  The post that Hara Taiki and Raist lacked the attention span to read was less than 500 words.  That's not an essay, and if you can't concentrate for the 90 seconds it takes to read that post, what the fuck are you doing discussing an issue like global warming?

Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #113 on: July 23, 2007, 07:14:34 PM »
Fuck, what's with the anti intellectuals on this forum?  The post that Hara Taiki and Raist lacked the attention span to read was less than 500 words.  That's not an essay, and if you can't concentrate for the 90 seconds it takes to read that post, what the fuck are you doing discussing an issue like global warming?

(Adds Jack Nicholson's voice) I'm concerned about a poster, who thinks it's wise to come to the internet, with full explanations. Because on this forum, you don't add merit to your argument, you get a back-whipping for being too wordy.

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beast

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Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #114 on: July 23, 2007, 07:20:51 PM »
I don't get it, but just because there is a very high amount of low brow content on the internet; especially with user content websites, that doesn't mean that we should help propagate the culture of idiocy, which appears to be spreading through web 2.0.  I think the appeal of FES for a long time, was that it offered a high level of stimulating discussion amongst the devil's advocates (the people who take FES literally are too retarded).  The reason many of the old posters left was because of the spamaholics from Dig, who have demonstrated the obvious problem with web 2.0 culture.

Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #115 on: July 24, 2007, 08:29:36 AM »
I was convinced this summer that Global Warming was overall inaccurate but then realized the cause of the deception.  The cool temperatures in Northeast US are contributed to the drifting of the warm ocean current away from the coastline resulting in frigid ocean temperatures from the north.
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narcberry

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Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #116 on: July 24, 2007, 08:58:59 AM »
I believed in global warming until I saw Al Gore on the flagship. At that moment, I realized I had been had.

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GeoGuy

Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #117 on: July 24, 2007, 07:32:25 PM »
I believed in global warming until I saw Al Gore on the flagship. At that moment, I realized I had been had.

At this moment, I have realized that you fail at logics. Dismissing a theory because someone you dislike supports it is highly irrational.

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Raist

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Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #118 on: July 25, 2007, 10:33:30 PM »
Fuck, what's with the anti intellectuals on this forum?  The post that Hara Taiki and Raist lacked the attention span to read was less than 500 words.  That's not an essay, and if you can't concentrate for the 90 seconds it takes to read that post, what the fuck are you doing discussing an issue like global warming?

Actually i just like to argue. The post wasn't too long, just uninteresting and lacked any real facts that hadn't been brought up before.

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Raist

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Re: Global Warning Causes Falling Sea Levels
« Reply #119 on: July 25, 2007, 10:35:04 PM »
I believed in global warming until I saw Al Gore on the flagship. At that moment, I realized I had been had.

At this moment, I have realized that you fail at logics. Dismissing a theory because someone you dislike supports it is highly irrational.

GeoGuy you fail for missing comedy.

narcberry you also fail for missing comedy, that joke sucked.