General Relativity and Atomic Clocks

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General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« on: June 13, 2007, 02:41:30 AM »
Hey everyone.

Just thought about something. I'm sure most of us are aware of the cesium atomic clock/aeroplane/time dilation experiment. This involved placing two atomic clocks in aeroplanes (for those who don't know they are rather accurate clocks reliant on atomic vibrations - correct me if I'm wrong). These planes then circumnavigated the globe, which is entirely possible on the flat earth as is fervently pointed out. The plane that flies west-east (earth's rotation in the RE) records a slower time than that of the plane that flies against Earth's rotation. Let me point out that this can be replicated with a stationary clock on the earth. Again, the clock that flies with the earth's rotation is runs lower, and the opposite for the other.

Now I'm sure you are all aware of the principles of relativity and why this happens. (short summary - the west-east plane travels faster relative to distant stars due to the earth's rotation,  the east-west plane travels slower - this is time dilation and can be proved in a multitude of experiments.

But I ask, would this happen on the FE, for two reasons:

1. Is there any rotation of the FE? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it requires none, the sun orbits and moves above it. There is no need for the FE to revolve like a merry-go round. I know it wobbles for the tides, but does it spin?.
2. As the stars are accelerating upwards with us at the same speed, and their position and distance from us is a fixed constant, both planes will be travelling at the same speed relative to them in the FE model. So, this time dilation shouldn't have been experienced.

Have a go. See what you can come up with. I don't really care, I'm sure you will have some shitty rebuttal.
It was decided that Tom's abuse of his suspiciously acquired mod powers was too much to let continue.  His account was deleted.

Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2007, 02:43:59 AM »
This sounds interesting can you go into more detail but keep it layman's terms? How does an atomic clock work?

Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2007, 04:45:22 AM »
The atomic clocks basically work on changing energy levels of electrons within in atom, cesium is used...I'm not sure why, but it's the standard. Electrons orbit the nucleus, but can jump to a higher energy orbit. Basically, electrons jump between the energy levels in a very precise, predictable and measurable manner. Suffice to say that they are so accurate that the second is defined by atomic clocks, something like 9 million radiation oscillations a second I think. Please correct me if I have misrepresented anything here.

Time dilation is a more difficult concept. Do you have an understanding of general relativity?
It was decided that Tom's abuse of his suspiciously acquired mod powers was too much to let continue.  His account was deleted.

Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2007, 05:24:54 AM »
How come the Earth's rotation makes the 'plane go faster in the same direction?

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Bushido

Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2007, 05:28:44 AM »
How come the Earth's rotation makes the 'plane go faster in the same direction?

The plane is moving with a given speed relative to the atmosphere. The atmosphere is at relative rest with respect to the Earth. The Earth is rotating with respect to the fixed stars. The law of transformation of velocities tells us that the plane would have a greater velocity with respect to the fixed stars (an inertial reference frame) when it traveled in the West-East direction than in the opposite one.

Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2007, 05:49:36 AM »
Speaking of atomic clocks, what of the ones in Colorado (I think) that need to be adjusted periodically because they sit at a higher altitude, and therfore traval further when the earth spins its normal?

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trig

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Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2007, 06:00:21 AM »
Interesting experiment, but I would like to see the most exact information possible on it. There are several explanations, all of them absurd but consistent with FE:
- It is part of the conspiracy: all the scientists with access to such equipment are in it
- You do not know s*** about General Relativity. All the FE theory is consistent with GR.
- The Flat Earth might be rotating or not. It might be of a definite size (the FAQ has the exact figure) or not. There is nothing in Earth's rotation too important any way.

On the question about atomic clocks, there is nothing fundamentally different between the cesium clock used in this experiment and the digital clock you probably have in your wrist. Better ways to measure the oscillations of a few atoms and atoms that oscillate at a higher frequency are the main differences.

This experiment could be repeated with any good precision watch and longer, faster flights (centuries longer, depending on the clock) because the exact making of the clock is irrelevant. It is time itself what works differently.

Contrary to science, the Flat Earth Society is not interested in investigating everything there is, accepting whatever evidence that can be replicated. They have an agenda, and accept nothing that contradicts it.

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divito the truthist

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Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2007, 06:15:26 AM »
I don't see a reason why the Earth in FE can't rotate like in an RE.
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Bushido

Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2007, 06:50:17 AM »
I don't see a reason why the Earth in FE can't rotate like in an RE.

Because it's not round and the more you go to the South, the greater the distance from the rotational axis. On the RE, on the other hand, the most distant points are on the Equator and are only 4,000 mi away from the rotational axis, compared to the radius of the FE equatorial circle which is 6,200 mi (or 1.6 times larger). As you cross the Equator, the distance from the rotational axis on a RE decreases, whereas it keeps increasing on a FE. Also, the angular velocity vector (a vector in the direction of the axis of rotation determined by the right hand rule) “flows” into the Earth on the Southern hemisphere on a RE, whereas it “flows” out (just as on the Northern Hemisphere) on a FE. This would cause the Foucault Pendulum to decline in the opposite way on a RE and on a FE on the Southern hemisphere.

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divito the truthist

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Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2007, 07:08:54 AM »
Damn, I didn't make a good enough statement.

I meant that they both rotate, not in the same manner obviously because that wouldn't account for the evidence.
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Bushido

Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2007, 07:11:40 AM »
Damn, I didn't make a good enough statement.

I meant that they both rotate, not in the same manner obviously because that wouldn't account for the evidence.

No, you made a great statement. It's only that my post is the definitive pwnage to the FE Theory  ;D

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Tom Bishop

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Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2007, 09:40:42 AM »
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This would cause the Foucault Pendulum to decline in the opposite way on a RE and on a FE on the Southern hemisphere.

What evidence is there showing that the Foucault Pendulum rotates backwards in the Southern Hemisphere?

Leon Foucault never left the Northern Hemisphere to verify his backwards swinging pendulum hypothesis.

Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2007, 09:47:05 AM »
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This would cause the Foucault Pendulum to decline in the opposite way on a RE and on a FE on the Southern hemisphere.

What evidence is there showing that the Foucault Pendulum rotates backwards in the Southern Hemisphere?

Leon Foucault never left the Northern Hemisphere to verify his backwards swinging pendulum hypothesis.
Did you search for the evidence yourself? I doubt it. Rowbotham would be disappointed in your unwillingness to look for yourself. But since you asked, please reference: http://www.physclips.unsw.edu.au/jw/foucault_pendulum.html

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Tom Bishop

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Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2007, 10:13:47 AM »
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But since you asked, please reference: http://www.physclips.unsw.edu.au/jw/foucault_pendulum.html

Now try referencing an organization which does not receive funding from NASA.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2007, 10:15:56 AM by Tom Bishop »

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sokarul

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Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2007, 10:15:05 AM »
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But since you asked, please reference: http://www.physclips.unsw.edu.au/jw/foucault_pendulum.html

Now try referencing an organization which does not receive funding from NASA.
Give it up. 
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

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Ulrichomega

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Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2007, 11:06:58 AM »
SO, because they recieve funding from NASA, all of their test results are from NASA also? Or if not, that's another couple million people that have to be bribed to keep the secret of the Conspiracuy (This organization and the otheres that also recieve funding that you point out whenever someone posts evidence from a site).

Stop Tom, all of your arguements just dig your hole deeper.
I'm so tempted to put a scratch and sniff at the bottom of a pool and see what you do...

Avert your eyes, this is too awesome for them...

Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2007, 11:27:15 AM »
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But since you asked, please reference: http://www.physclips.unsw.edu.au/jw/foucault_pendulum.html

Now try referencing an organization which does not receive funding from NASA.

Umm... you do know that the website you gave is for Swinburne University of Technology in Melbourne, Australia wheras the link given by Gulliver is for the University of New South Wales in Sydney Australia. Just so we're clear, you do know those are two different universities in two different cities.. right?
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Hmm... A good solid RE arguement and not an FE'er in sight. ::)
Oh, no...they're here. It's just that damn perspective..

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2007, 11:30:47 AM »
He probably did.  I'm sure he was being intentionally deceptive.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Ulrichomega

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Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2007, 12:40:37 PM »
I'm past the stage where I even click on his links. Most of them are wrong anyway.

Oh, and Tom:

PWN'T!
I'm so tempted to put a scratch and sniff at the bottom of a pool and see what you do...

Avert your eyes, this is too awesome for them...

Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2007, 02:33:56 PM »
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How come the Earth's rotation makes the 'plane go faster in the same direction?

Bushido explained this - another way of explaining - The earth rotates at something crazy (400m/s at the equator?) relative to fixed stars. I don't know the exact figure. A plane on the equator retains this velocity (through the law of inertia) when it takes off.
A plane going the opposite direction, however, has to compete against the earth's rotation.


A Summary Thus Far:

1: Atomic clocks experience differing time dilation as two planes circle the globe (or one remains earthbound)
2: This demonstrates that the earth must be rotating.
3: The FE cannot be rotating, through Bushido's concise explanation
4. Ergo, the earth is round.

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Now try referencing an organization which does not receive funding from NASA.

Tom, in the past you have claimed that the only people in on the conspiracy are a selective few at the VERY top of NASA. A few people. The rest have no idea, they are just hoodwinked.

This suggests that the people who conduct the Focault pendulum tests in the southern hemisphere, being ordinary people, not the NASA exclusive, are NOT conspirators. However, they obtain results that suggest the earth is round.

Is NASA magically influencing the pendulum to give false results. Funding does not mean they have explicit contact with the experiment.

It was decided that Tom's abuse of his suspiciously acquired mod powers was too much to let continue.  His account was deleted.

Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2007, 05:30:45 PM »
Or if not, that's another couple million people that have to be bribed to keep the secret of the Conspiracuy (This organization and the otheres that also recieve funding that you point out whenever someone posts evidence from a site).

Every new janitor has to keep the secret.

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thesublime514

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Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2007, 07:06:23 PM »
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But since you asked, please reference: http://www.physclips.unsw.edu.au/jw/foucault_pendulum.html

Now try referencing an organization which does not receive funding from NASA.

Aren't the results the same?

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Bushido

Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2007, 03:53:41 AM »
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This would cause the Foucault Pendulum to decline in the opposite way on a RE and on a FE on the Southern hemisphere.

What evidence is there showing that the Foucault Pendulum rotates backwards in the Southern Hemisphere?

Leon Foucault never left the Northern Hemisphere to verify his backwards swinging pendulum hypothesis.

If you are saying that there are not many pendula around the World and not to mention on the Southern Hemisphere, see this excerpt from the list in Wikipedia’s article about the Foucault Pendulum (they are all in the Southern Hemisphere):

Africa
  • Giyani Science Centre, Giyani, Limpopo Province, South Africa
  • Department of Chemistry, University of Pretoria, South Africa
  • Natural Science Museum, Albany Museum Complex, Grahamstown, South Africa
  • Heritage Garden, Stellenbosch, South Africa

Central and South America
  • Faculty of Exact and Natural Sciences, University of Buenos Aires, [23], Buenos Aires, Argentin
  • Museum of Science and Technology, Engineering School, University of Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina

Australasia
  • University of New South Wales
  • Questacon National Science Exhibition, Canberra
  • Gravity Discovery Centre [24], Military Rd, Gingin, Western Australia
  • School of Mathematics, Monash University, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
  • School of Physics, Bragg Building,University of Adelaide, North Terrace,South Australia

Antarctica
  • South Pole [25] - Length: 33 m, weight: 25 kg

Also, if you don’t believe these institutions, you can demonstrate the same effect by yourself with a much smaller apparatus – the gyroscope (invented by the same physicist), which works on pretty much the same principles.

I don’t intend to educate you further, but you must acknowledge the following line of thought:

1) If the Earth is rotating about its axis, then effects like the Foucault Pendulum and the precessing gyroscope must be observable everywhere on the Earth. You cannot disagree with this statement because it is a mathematical theorem derived by the laws of mechanics. Now, there are two choices:
a) You accept that somewhere on the Earth an experiment successfully demonstrating the Foucault effect was done.
b) You deny that a successful demonstration of the Foucault Experiment was ever made.

Now, if you choose option b), this will prove that the Earth is not rotating about its axis. Actually, when I first joined these forums, this was the common view between the FES, a fact that is also reflected in the FAQ. This was perhaps because none of you have ever heard of Foucault’s experiment before. This is also the problem with option b). You can be easily faced with the fact that such a pendulum existed as early as 1851 in Pantheon in Paris. So, the only option you have is option a). Until you find another explanation for this effect, you must accept the Earth is rotating.

2) If the Earth is indeed flat, then the Foucault experiment would give the same results on the Northern and the Southern Hemisphere. On the other hand, if the Earth is round, the Foucault experiment would give opposite directions of rotation of the pendulum’s plane of oscillation (clockwise on the Northern, which is like in Pantheon, and anticlockwise on the Southern Hemisphere). As before, there is nothing questionable about these deductions. Now is the crucial part:
a) The rotational directions are different.
b) The rotational directions are the same.

If option b) is what is observed, it would mean the EARTH IS NOT ROUND, and give support to your FE theory. But, perhaps you are more afraid of the option a) which would inevitably PROVE THAT THE FE MODEL OF THE EARTH IS NOT CORRECT. This is what is known as a CRUCIAL EXPERIMENT. The beauty of it is that it is local, that is you don’t need to measure great distances or use other astronomical effects. Put in another way, you needn’t get out of a room (one per hemisphere) and you can do it on a cloudy day 24/7.

So, this is a simple wager. Are you ready to accept it, Dr.Bishop and all the FE-ers.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2007, 09:13:37 AM by Bushido »

Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2007, 07:35:51 PM »
A good argument and thus far completelly ignored by FEers.. while they seem active enough on most of the idiotic threads started by the sudden wave of noobs (wtf is with that anyway.. was there like an ad for this somewhere or what?). Anyway, aren't there any FEers here who live in the southern hemisphere??
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Hmm... A good solid RE arguement and not an FE'er in sight. ::)
Oh, no...they're here. It's just that damn perspective..

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divito the truthist

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Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2007, 07:41:03 PM »
I vote to develop a theory to explain it with a flat Earth, instead of whatever options you came up with.
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Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2007, 07:55:50 PM »
Haha, well at best I think you mean develop a hypothesis. Theory in the scientific sense has a much higher standing and I wouldn't even consider FET on the whole a scientific theory.
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Hmm... A good solid RE arguement and not an FE'er in sight. ::)
Oh, no...they're here. It's just that damn perspective..

?

Bushido

Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2007, 01:11:09 AM »
I vote to develop a theory to explain it with a flat Earth, instead of whatever options you came up with.

You mean, accept option 1a and work from there in a different direction?

Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2007, 05:50:25 PM »
Could TheEngineer, being a reasonably learned fellow, have a crack at the original post?
It was decided that Tom's abuse of his suspiciously acquired mod powers was too much to let continue.  His account was deleted.

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divito the truthist

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Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2007, 06:18:33 PM »
You mean, accept option 1a and work from there in a different direction?

Short answer? Yes.
Our existentialist, relativist, nihilist, determinist, fascist, eugenicist moderator hath returned.
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Bushido

Re: General Relativity and Atomic Clocks
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2007, 02:36:36 AM »
You mean, accept option 1a and work from there in a different direction?

Short answer? Yes.

Well, you sure can do the talk, but can you also do the walk?