Simple answers to simpl questions

Hi every one. I really like some of the theories put forward by the FE-ers, and I am really tempted to actually firmly believe you are correct, but there are some flaws that I need solved before I can be convinced (please give me a break if these are answered elsewhere – I haven’t read everything)
1.   This Ice wall. Is the circumference of the flat earth land? If so it seems rather convenient, almost as if it was man-made. Is it man-made? If not, is there an ice wall over the sea areas of the circumference. If there isn’t then there is a gap which surely anyone could sail through (what’s on the other side I gather is guesswork at the moment). Alternatively, the guards could guard the see too, but surely much less securely than the land. If there is an ice wall, then the sea would slowly melt it away, leaving a gap (obviously RE theories about angle at which the sun’s rays reach us wouldn’t work for a FE so the Global temperature must be more or less constant.
2.   This brings me on to my next point. Average temperature difference between the RE ice caps and equator is 30 degrees or something (sorry I haven’t done my research). How is this explained by FE?
3.   Next, there is sky. No-one can deny that there is at least several thousand feet of air above our heads. Surely a plane could fly over the ice wall? If not, maybe near enough to it to take photos of the other side. Has this happened? If so I would like to see them. Go on up further than that and REs have space. If FEs don’t believe there is space, what is there? I can think of some rather far-fetched possibilities but I would love to hear a plausible one.
This will do for the moment but I’m sure I will have more questions. I would very much appreciate answers because I’m thoroughly divided at the moment and I don’t like it. Thanks very much. (please could I have replies from FEs who actually know what they are talking about, not from angry stupid REs?)

I think a plane would freeze far enough over the wall, like the helicopters in day after tomorrow

1.  The ice wall is not man made.  It surrounds the earth becase (it is thought that) when the water went to spill off the earth it froze from the very cold temperatures of open space.  On the other side of the ice wall, there could be, well, ice, and/or the end of the earth.  The arctic is holding together fine until recently, why couldn't the ice wall?  The guards are a joke...
2.  The sun shines it's light and energy the most at the equator.  There are diagrams in the FAQ for the seasons, and they could also apply here.  Just see the diagrams and think about why the equator would be the warmest.
3.  No one has taken pictures of the end of the earth.  Fe'ers believe in space.    They simply don't believe that maintained spaceflight is possible because it would require far too much fuel to accelerate with the earth for long periods of time.

*giggles at not believing in space*

Space? What the hell you talking about?! Crazy arse RE punk, making stuff up..!

Space doesn't exist.  It's part of the conspiracy.

And the Ice Wall is well guarded at all times.  I should know.  I've been there.

Are you calling me a liar?

Space doesn't exist.  It's part of the conspiracy.

And the Ice Wall is well guarded at all times.  I should know.  I've been there.

Are you calling me a liar?

You're a joker.

That was hurtful.

Ask yourself why the planes that easily endure temperatures below -40 degrees in every long trip (more than 1 hour or so) in commercial routes cannot survive the temperatures supposedly found over the great wall.

You can also ask yourself why planes frequently fly close to the North Pole but cannot fly close to the south pole, which is just slightly colder.

But most important of all, ask yourself why the FE hypothesis requires layers upon layers of convincing little explanations to try to fill all the holes that appear everywhere, but no predictions can be made at all. FE hypothesis cannot predict the time and date of eclipses, the trajectory of the sun (with no more than 5 degrees of error), or anything that involves numbers, for that matter. They cannot even explain why our atmosphere does not escape over the great wall.

Ask yourself why the planes that easily endure temperatures below -40 degrees in every long trip (more than 1 hour or so) in commercial routes cannot survive the temperatures supposedly found over the great wall.

Temperatures beyond the ice wall start approaching absolute zero.

Jenny, I was once lke you.  I only recently converted to the FE side.  Spend some time talking to Tom Bishop.  Call him out.  He'll set you straight.

Temperatures beyond the ice wall start approaching absolute zero. ...

Evidence? I'd think that the ice wall would radiate enough heat to keep things toasty (relative to absolute zero) for many miles. Wouldn't the Sun, enough though it shines down, would have to be hot (black body thermodynamics, right?) and high enough to warm a good distance as well. If no one's ever see beyond the Ice Wall, it seems to me that no one has measured the temperature beyond the Ice Wall. Can you back up your statement?

Beyond the 150 foot Ice Wall is anyone's guess. How far the ice extends; how it terminates; and what exists beyond it, are questions to which no present human experience can reply. All we at present know is, that snow and hail, howling winds, and indescribable storms and hurricanes prevail; and that in every direction "human ingress is barred by unsealed escarpments of perpetual ice," extending farther than eye or telescope can penetrate, and becoming lost in gloom and darkness. Some hold that the tundra of ice and snow stretches forever eternally.

However, The Flat Earth does not necessary need to be physically infinite in order to contain the atmosphere - just very big. Often we might hear "infinite earth" from Flat Earth proponents as an analogy for what exists past the ice wall; a stretch of land incomprehensible by human standards.

In order for barometric pressure to rise and fall, an element of heat must be present. Heat creates pressure. These two elements are tightly correlated in modern physics.

In our local area the heat of the day comes from the sun, moving and swashing around wind currents from areas of low pressures to areas of high pressures with its heat. Past the Ice Wall, where the rays of the sun do not reach, the tundra of ice and snow lays in perpetual darkness. If one could move away from the Ice Wall into the uncharted tundra the surrounding temperatures would drop lower and lower until it nears absolute zero. Defining the exact length of the gradient would take some looking into, but at a significant distance from the edge of the Ice Wall temperatures will drop to a point where barometric pressure nears the zero mark. At this point, whether it be millions or hundreds of millions of miles from the edge of Ice Wall, the world can end without the atmosphere leaking into space.

The atmosphere exists as a lip on the surface of the earth, held in by vast gradients of declining pressure.

 

Beyond the 150 foot Ice Wall is anyone's guess.

So are you admitting that you don't know the temperatures beyond the Ice Wall as you previously claimed approached absolute zero?

Also you now claim to know that hurricanes prevail near the Ice Wall. I really would like to know the names of the last six hurricanes that you saw near the Ice Wall. I'd like to look them up and seen what their course was according to NOAA.

Science is always quick to jump on observational evidence to explain an existing theory without considering that the original idea might be inherently flawed to begin with. If you want proof of how much science is flawed, look no further than the Piltdown Man.  Scientists were so eager to confirm Darwin's theory, that when someone "found" bone fragments of the kind everyone was looking for (i.e. fit Darwin's theory), they all went hoorah and said this was clear proof that Darwin's ideas were correct.  Yeah, a HARD FACT DISCOVERY.  Then when it was discovered to be a conspiracy, they changed their theory and said, "Actually, what we are looking for is something that looks like this."

I don't think the kind of hurricanes that lie on the endless tundra beyond the ice wall get names.

Science is always quick to jump on observational evidence to explain an existing theory without considering that the original idea might be inherently flawed to begin with. If you want proof of how much science is flawed, look no further than the Piltdown Man.  Scientists were so eager to confirm Darwin's theory, that when someone "found" bone fragments of the kind everyone was looking for (i.e. fit Darwin's theory), they all went hoorah and said this was clear proof that Darwin's ideas were correct.  Yeah, a HARD FACT DISCOVERY.  Then when it was discovered to be a conspiracy, they changed their theory and said, "Actually, what we are looking for is something that looks like this."

I don't think the kind of hurricanes that lie on the endless tundra beyond the ice wall get names.

While I appreciate the example as reason for great caution in accepting the words of others, I must apply it to you. Tell me how you know about the hurricanes. What kind of hurricanes are these? Have you measured the winds? What evidence do you have of these hurricanes.

Tell me if you now admit that you don't know anything about the temperatures beyond the Ice Wall. This is my second request on this matter.

Dodging and evading by the supporters of "evidence" are hallmarks of a fraud or hoax like the Piltdown Man.

Voliva maintains that there is no South Pole, and that it is 60,000 miles around the southern ice wall. Captain Gunnar Isachsen, the Norwegian explorer, last winter circumnavigated the Antarctic continent in a voyage of about 14,000 miles. Zion says Isachsen may have circumnavigated something, possibly an island of that size, but did not go around the antarctic ice rim, and points to the 60,000 mile journey of Ross in 1848 and the following two years, when he circumnavigated the ice rim.

Ok so you all spend far more time on the internet than me. I said in my original post that I wanted answers from FE’ers that actually know what they are talking about, not RE’ers that are only interested in sticking to their narrow minded view of the world. However, I do find some of the arguments put forward interesting.
1.   So basically, FE’ers can’t agree on what they believe. Some believe there are government agents guarding the wall, some don’t. If not, why the fuck isn’t there clear irrefutable (forgive my spelling if its wrong) evidence of said ice wall. Some believe it is 150ft high, some 150 metres, some 150 miles. WTF??!
2.   They can’t agree on what is on the other side. Space (which some don’t believe exists at all), the end of the world whatever that is, and infinite and very cold earth?
3.   Regarding the helicopters in the day after tomorrow, IT’S A FILM YOU RETARD. They aren’t real therefore cannot be used in any argument. Get a brain.
4.   I don’t know if there is something wrong with my computer, but I can’t view your seasons diagrams, so I feel forced to believe that they all make perfect sense and cover the whole issue very well until you apply some very small but crucial factor like gravity or the fact that the sun is warm.
5.   Some believe in space, some don’t. If space is there, then it must be possible to get a spaceship up. As the atmosphere relative to the earth is stationary, Newtonian mechanics says that with a very large but nevertheless achievable force, a rocket can be fired upwards fast enough. If this is done near the ice wall, pictures can very easily be taken to prove/disprove it’s existence. As they haven’t been, one is forced to conclude that space doesn’t exist, in which case the multi-billion dollar industry surrounding space exploration and travel, including the whole issue of satellites which anyone using a mobile cannot possibly deny is fact, must be a hoax presumably put forward by the government, funded by the government (those billions have to come from somewhere) and protected by the government. So therefore we must all have been brainwashed into believing it. Extra problem: why the fuck does the government care if we know or not? Surely it would save them billions a year keeping space companies afloat, paying agents to guard the wall etc, and they would lose nothing if we knew.
Sorry guys but your arguments just don’t hold up when you apply an ounce of sense and physics. FE’ers lose. (sorry this is so long)
 

<<3.   Regarding the helicopters in the day after tomorrow, IT’S A FILM YOU RETARD. They aren’t real therefore cannot be used in any argument. Get a brain.>>

Dudette...I wasn't trying to argue with it...but the principle i the same, keep going away from the sun (on a FE model) and temperatures reach absolute zero, so the fuel would freeze in the storage tanks. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear and you misinterpreted my post

The area where the sun doesn't shine becomes much cooler in its absense in just hours.  I don't see why hundreds, or thousands of miles into the ice wall, where the sun really doesn't shine, it couldn't become much, much cooler.

The area where the sun doesn't shine becomes much cooler in its absense in just hours.  I don't see why hundreds, or thousands of miles into the ice wall, where the sun really doesn't shine, it couldn't become much, much cooler.

It has to do with Maxwell's Equations. Think of it this way: The Sun shines on the Earth. The Earth then shines what it receives. The Ice Wall, as part of the warm Earth, would warm the surrounding area for millions of miles to well above Absolute Zero.

I have no idea how that could work when there's tons of energy being transformed heating the known earth.

I have no idea how that could work when there's tons of energy being transformed heating the known earth.

Let me try an analogy (I'll put the analogues in parentheses.). Let's say that you have a hotel of hundred rooms (The Universe). In room #50 (the area around the Earth), there's a hotplate (the Sun) that produces enough heat to warm a pot (Earth) of water to 100 degrees. Imagine that everywhere else in the hotel is 50 degrees (Absolute zero). Now imagine what would happen if the hotplate was left on for a week. The room would rise in temperature maybe to 99 degrees. Now imagine what would happen if the hotplate was left on for 4 billion years.

Maxwell said, before Einstein's E=mc², that energy is neither created or destroyed. We know now that Sun converts mass into energy (There is a school of thought that in the end it's really gravity producing the energy, but that's another post someday.) That energy reaches us by mostly visible light. It warms the Earth. But you know that the Earth's temperature has held steady for billions of years. So the Earth is sending that heat off somewhere, so the Earth "shines".

Beyond the 150 foot Ice Wall is anyone's guess. How far the ice extends; how it terminates; and what exists beyond it, are questions to which no present human experience can reply. All we at present know is, that snow and hail, howling winds, and indescribable storms and hurricanes prevail; and that in every direction "human ingress is barred by unsealed escarpments of perpetual ice," extending farther than eye or telescope can penetrate, and becoming lost in gloom and darkness. Some hold that the tundra of ice and snow stretches forever eternally.

However, The Flat Earth does not necessary need to be physically infinite in order to contain the atmosphere - just very big. Often we might hear "infinite earth" from Flat Earth proponents as an analogy for what exists past the ice wall; a stretch of land incomprehensible by human standards.

In order for barometric pressure to rise and fall, an element of heat must be present. Heat creates pressure. These two elements are tightly correlated in modern physics.

In our local area the heat of the day comes from the sun, moving and swashing around wind currents from areas of low pressures to areas of high pressures with its heat. Past the Ice Wall, where the rays of the sun do not reach, the tundra of ice and snow lays in perpetual darkness. If one could move away from the Ice Wall into the uncharted tundra the surrounding temperatures would drop lower and lower until it nears absolute zero. Defining the exact length of the gradient would take some looking into, but at a significant distance from the edge of the Ice Wall temperatures will drop to a point where barometric pressure nears the zero mark. At this point, whether it be millions or hundreds of millions of miles from the edge of Ice Wall, the world can end without the atmosphere leaking into space.

The atmosphere exists as a lip on the surface of the earth, held in by vast gradients of declining pressure.

 

This is Tom's bad answer you poser.
Be creative...the more outlandish your claims, the harder it is to give a coherent de-bunking without laughing your head off.

Let me try an analogy (I'll put the analogues in parentheses.). Let's say that you have a hotel of hundred rooms (The Universe). In room #50 (the area around the Earth), there's a hotplate (the Sun) that produces enough heat to warm a pot (Earth) of water to 100 degrees. Imagine that everywhere else in the hotel is 50 degrees (Absolute zero). Now imagine what would happen if the hotplate was left on for a week. The room would rise in temperature maybe to 99 degrees. Now imagine what would happen if the hotplate was left on for 4 billion years.

Maxwell said, before Einstein's E=mc², that energy is neither created or destroyed. We know now that Sun converts mass into energy (There is a school of thought that in the end it's really gravity producing the energy, but that's another post someday.) That energy reaches us by mostly visible light. It warms the Earth. But you know that the Earth's temperature has held steady for billions of years. So the Earth is sending that heat off somewhere, so the Earth "shines".

Well, your theory makes sense now, but what about open space?  It's cold, and wouldn't that greatly cool the outer edges of the ice wall?

Quote from: Roundy the FE Proponent on May 22, 2007, 11:44:09 PM

Beyond the 150 foot Ice Wall is anyone's guess. How far the ice extends; how it terminates; and what exists beyond it, are questions to which no present human experience can reply. All we at present know is, that snow and hail, howling winds, and indescribable storms and hurricanes prevail; and that in every direction "human ingress is barred by unsealed escarpments of perpetual ice," extending farther than eye or telescope can penetrate, and becoming lost in gloom and darkness. Some hold that the tundra of ice and snow stretches forever eternally.

However, The Flat Earth does not necessary need to be physically infinite in order to contain the atmosphere - just very big. Often we might hear "infinite earth" from Flat Earth proponents as an analogy for what exists past the ice wall; a stretch of land incomprehensible by human standards.

In order for barometric pressure to rise and fall, an element of heat must be present. Heat creates pressure. These two elements are tightly correlated in modern physics.

In our local area the heat of the day comes from the sun, moving and swashing around wind currents from areas of low pressures to areas of high pressures with its heat. Past the Ice Wall, where the rays of the sun do not reach, the tundra of ice and snow lays in perpetual darkness. If one could move away from the Ice Wall into the uncharted tundra the surrounding temperatures would drop lower and lower until it nears absolute zero. Defining the exact length of the gradient would take some looking into, but at a significant distance from the edge of the Ice Wall temperatures will drop to a point where barometric pressure nears the zero mark. At this point, whether it be millions or hundreds of millions of miles from the edge of Ice Wall, the world can end without the atmosphere leaking into space.

The atmosphere exists as a lip on the surface of the earth, held in by vast gradients of declining pressure.

 

This is Tom's bad answer you poser.

Oh no!   I've been exposed!  Yes, it's true, I believe Tom to be the highest authority on FE, therefore I copied his argument.   It's not too different from what he himself does every day.

Quote from: Gulliver on May 23, 2007, 09:34:39 AM

Let me try an analogy (I'll put the analogues in parentheses.). Let's say that you have a hotel of hundred rooms (The Universe). In room #50 (the area around the Earth), there's a hotplate (the Sun) that produces enough heat to warm a pot (Earth) of water to 100 degrees. Imagine that everywhere else in the hotel is 50 degrees (Absolute zero). Now imagine what would happen if the hotplate was left on for a week. The room would rise in temperature maybe to 99 degrees. Now imagine what would happen if the hotplate was left on for 4 billion years.

Maxwell said, before Einstein's E=mc², that energy is neither created or destroyed. We know now that Sun converts mass into energy (There is a school of thought that in the end it's really gravity producing the energy, but that's another post someday.) That energy reaches us by mostly visible light. It warms the Earth. But you know that the Earth's temperature has held steady for billions of years. So the Earth is sending that heat off somewhere, so the Earth "shines".

Well, your theory makes sense now, but what about open space?  It's cold, and wouldn't that greatly cool the outer edges of the ice wall?

Well asked. Let's add open space around the hotel in the analogy. The surface of the hot body, the outside walls of the hotel, would eventually reach an equilibrium point where it would radiate to "outer space" exactly the same amount of energy per time as the hot plate provide. The surface temperature would be proportional, according to relative surface areas, to the 100 degree hotplate. (Now there's a few problems directly relating this to the Absolute Zero claims we've seen here. For example we don't know if there's something  out beyond the Ice Wall to reflect or otherwise re-radiate the energy.)

But I hope that I've given you "food for thought" about FE and Absolute Zero.

You most definately have.  I think I've been accepting the FE theory without enough thought.

I have decided.
I don't believe in FE.
All those that 'do' seem to have their own theories which kind of in a very far fetched way work to a negligible degree, but each FE believer has different ideas to each other FE beliver. My sub-conclusion - if you want to have any credibility; corroboration, evidence and common sense is required, all of whcih is lacked. my less-sub-conclusion - you all realise how stupid the idea is but you cling to it for the fun of arguing with other small minded and bored individuals. My final conclusion - no-one here actually believes in FE, you all do it for fun. I like it and I'm going to join you becasue I am a similarly small minded individual. just out of interest, is Terry Pratchet a FEer?
Here is another theory for you all. See my next topic...

Small minded?  FE'ers?  Not a single person who truely believes in a FE has posted in this thread, and small minded,