Does the bible condemn abortion?

However the fact that David is King is still an additional reason, because he's specially chosen by God to be King before he's born.

Certainly... in his case, there's a clear-cut "reason" why God might want him to have a soul as early as possible; in the case of the random-albeit-special person, we can't see anything else that's special about him.

Quote

But I believe abortions should be legal. Stem cell research could very vell help out people more then a crack baby.

By "crack baby" I suppose you are referring to humans of lesser intelligence or mental handicaps?  Or by "crack baby" could it be a baby that ends up being normal as it grows up but just born of that type of parents?  I'll assume the first, but if the latter please explain.  I'm not sure if I agree with either though.

I meant the ones who grew up with parents who didnt want them.

cheesejoff I understand that this is unclear and I do follow your point. However how do we know God doesn't preordain all of us for specific tasks (leaving aside for the moment free will vs determinis since in a free will scenario we are merely called to do certain tasks wheras in a deterministic scenario we have no choice for the purpose of the point I'm making it doens't matter). If so then King David isn't any more special than someone preordained to be a carpenter, except that King David did more important things and ths got space in the Bible. King David wasn't an everyman granted but Im not sure he's so different from anyone else. However your original point about this Psalm (ie the context matters) seems to have been borne out by the page of two of disscussion so well done
An intrigued
Cinlef

so well done

Thank you  

Some related points: In Numbers 3:15, the census only counts children above one month old.
In Leviticus 27:6 there is a value placed on children above one month old, but anything less is worthless.

Of course that doesn't mean that killing them would not be murder, it's just interesting to see that the bible doesn't strictly count them as people until they are one month old.

Of course that doesn't mean that killing them would not be murder, it's just interesting to see that the bible doesn't strictly count them as people until they are one month old.

Interesting point: they're not members of the Covenant yet.  Maybe "Thou shalt not kill" doesn't apply to them for that reason?

Hmmm while I haven't checked those yet (but I will I just swamped with work at the moment) perhaps there aren't included in the census due to the high infant mortality rate at the time? If more than half (correct me if thats too high or low please) died before one month then perhaps thery just aren't recorded cause the census keeper are trying to "be more efficient" (a catch phrase of bureaucrates no of any period)
An intrigued
Cinlef

Hmmm while I haven't checked those yet (but I will I just swamped with work at the moment) perhaps there aren't included in the census due to the high infant mortality rate at the time? If more than half (correct me if thats too high or low please) died before one month then perhaps thery just aren't recorded cause the census keeper are trying to "be more efficient" (a catch phrase of bureaucrates no of any period)
An intrigued
Cinlef

Interesting... definitely a possibility.

From the same standpoint, it would be considered quite wrong in such a society to intentionally kill an infant.  Children are valuable to society and not trivial to produce.

Quote from: "Cinlef"

Hmmm while I haven't checked those yet (but I will I just swamped with work at the moment) perhaps there aren't included in the census due to the high infant mortality rate at the time? If more than half (correct me if thats too high or low please) died before one month then perhaps thery just aren't recorded cause the census keeper are trying to "be more efficient" (a catch phrase of bureaucrates no of any period)
An intrigued
Cinlef

From the same standpoint, it would be considered quite wrong in such a society to intentionally kill an infant.  Children are valuable to society and not trivial to produce.

Perhaps, but consider that in Leviticus children under one month old have no value. Although, that could be because of said high mortality rate.

Perhaps, but consider that in Leviticus children under one month old have no value. Although, that could be because of said high mortality rate.

That's an interesting "caveat"... don't know what to make of it, though you could be right about the infant mortality thing.  Infants aren't *really* valuable until they've passed the "50% chance of death" stage.

-Erasmus

the "50% chance of death" stage"

Are you sure it's 50%? According to this site it's 30%

http://faculty.biu.ac.il/~barilm/infant.html

Although it does say that it is impossible to give an accurate percentage of the mortality rate at that time.

Anyway, 30-50% is quite high, so it's still a possibility...

Okay so we have consensus on the census thing (omigod that rhymes I'm so sorry)?
if so any other passages?
An intrigued
Cinlef

The main one is Genesis 38:24, where a pregnant woman condemned to suffer capital punishment, but they seem to have no problem with killing the unborn baby along with the mother.

These next two verses are out of context: Ezekiel 37:8-10 which tells the story of Adam who is not alive until his first breath, and Genesis 2:7 when God turns bones into living humans but they are not alive until their first breath.

It would suggest that humans are not alive until their first birth but of course neither of them are born naturally, one is created by God and one is resurected from bones...


Just to recap the out of context point, Ecclesiastes 6:3-5, Ecclesiastes 4:1-3, Job 3:2-4, 11-19, Job 10:18-19, Ezekiel 37:8-10, Genesis 2:7 can be used to support abortion when out of context.

Sorry if I'm changing subject here, but is it alright if I express any islamic views on the subject of abortion, or are we strictly talking about the bible and christians? Again, I'm sorry if this in any way changes the focus of this discussion, but I just can't help wanting to say something. If it's not alright I totally understand.

Stem cell research could very vell help out people more then a crack baby.

yes and the skin of the fetuses can be used by plastic surgeons to complete cologen injections.personally i belive abortion is wrong,only acceptable in the case of rape.no one wants to be a child born out of rape...think of the classroom taunting.yet in other circumstances,not on your life.pro choice,my ass.you had a choice to tell your "man" to leave the condom on.that was your mistake,now live with it.thats all pro-choicers are,people who cant live with their mistakes.

Sorry to butt in, but I asked a question and I'd like it to be answered please.

personally i belive abortion is wrong only acceptable in the case of rape.no one wants to be a child born out of rape...think of the classroom taunting.

Why would the classroom even be brought into that?

I suppose this is the point where I give up and quit bothering, right?

No, you shouldn't leave, you're welcome to express your views and beliefs as you will, but it may be wise to wait until these troubled times of spam are over. Also, if I'm not mistaken, A good number of moderators reside in Europe, where it is still somewhat early in the morning, so that may have something to do with the slow response to the spamming.

All right, I'll just try and wait until all this blows over. Oh, it's also early morning here in Qatar. It's around 3oclock, but I suppose you didn't mean that early, did you?

I suppose this is the point where I give up and quit bothering, right?

sorry,just got caught up expressing my point of view as well.you dont really have to ask to express yourself.all you need to say is "i know you all are talking about the bible and abortion,yet id like to share the islamic view of abortion", then so on and so forth.just do it.were all ears.

[/quote]
Why would the classroom even be brought into that?[/quote]

they're called bullies.they've been around for quite a while.like,since the invention of school.

they're called bullies.they've been around for quite a while.like,since the invention of school.

I know what a bully is, but what business do they have knowing that someone was the product of a rape?  I doubt that many people outside of immediate family wouldn't know all that.

hmm i know this relates back to the first page but David did kill Goliath, admittedly he probably wasn't 40 foot tall or anything, but even if he were just 6 foot tall he would have seemed like a giant at that time.


I believe most historians of this era say that Goliath was most likely a phonecian general trying to conquer the hebrews.... one stone between the eyes later and David becomes king david


Now onto the actual topic, personally i bleeive the aboriton is distateful, and it almost disgusts me when it is used because a chile would not be "convienient" as is said somewhere above you had sex, what the hell did you think would happen?


But saying that i beleive that woman should have the choice. Just as i beleive someone has the right to vote for a neo-nazi group at a general election i think they have the right to an abortion. But i don't particualarly want to know someone who does either.


I also beleive that an abortion hurts you more in the long term than having the child would have done - most woman regret having an abortion after the fact, but i have yet to meet a mother who says that they regret choosing to have there child.

Anyways, as I wanted to say earlier, abortion is a massive sin in Islamic faith, as it is essentially killing, and a Muslim can only kill under these circumstances;
1. The person that is killed was one who spread mischief around the land, and mischief in this context means disrupting the peace of the community, like murder, rape, stuff like that.
2. That person killed someone beloved to you and you want vengeance.
( Islam  allows vengeance, but the punishment must not exceed the crime. And while vengeance is allowed, God gives you a lot of credit for forgiveness).
(EDIT: 3. In wartime.
4. As a form of justice ( execution).)
So as abortion is killing, and it does't fall under these four categories, it's pretty much counted as murder.

I would like to elaborate on executions ( not being sadistic here), but I'm not bothered and this isn't the right thread.

Feel free to create a thread on it.  I'm sure it will be interesting to see what kind of discussion it sparks.

I don't think this is the time for me to spark anything. But maybe I should start a thread.

most woman regret having an abortion after the fact,

Wow, that's a sweeping statement. Anything to back it up?
Did anybody stop to think that it would be worse for some people to have the baby and either not be able to provide for it(Financially, as a parent, etc) or do a shitty job at it? And adoption appears to cause much pain for the child when it eventually finds out.

I know what a bully is, but what business do they have knowing that someone was the product of a rape? I doubt that many people outside of immediate family wouldn't know all that.

Agreed. I doubt it will be common knowledge that little billy from down the street was concieved due to his mother being raped.

This all really pisses me off considering half of you are not even of legal age yet.

Who are you to judge what is right for a woman?

How would you kow what is "right" for the child in question?

Who made you god??

I AGREE with aboprtion becasue everyone SHOULD have a choice.

And rape is not the only case.

Imagine, you little 16 yr olds, that you were having sex with the woman you thought you loved, with a condom mind you, but that is only 99% safe. The condom breaks, she is now pregnant. Do you think as a 16 yr old with no job, no prospects, still living in your parents home that it is right to bring taht child into that kind of environment?

DO NOT accuse women who get abortions as "distasteful" that is f((kin ignorant and half witted to boot.

This thread has really annoyed me

Until you have experienced it first hand, DO NOT talk as though you are some kind of f**kin expert.

I would love to see what these people who do not "believe" in abortion would do if they got their GF (if they even had one) pregnant.

Im sure it would be a different story then.