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Anything that will prove it?

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Ulrichomega

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Anything that will prove it?
« on: May 10, 2007, 08:11:46 PM »
I have stopped posting recently due to the bull-headedness of most FE'ers, but recently I was wondering something...

What  could prove that the Earth is Round to those like Tom who disbelieve anything?

This is an honest question that I don't expect an honest answer to.

Bye.
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Dilla

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2007, 08:21:35 PM »
I asked this. TheEngineer said he wanted a trip to the ISS  ::)
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Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 10, 2007, 07:21:50 PM
Wavelength and intensity have nothing to do with frequency.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2007, 08:49:47 PM »
Why should I need convincing when the truth is that the Earth is Flat?

It's you, Ulrichomega, who needs to step outside of the fantasy and consider reality for a moment.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 08:52:38 PM by Tom Bishop »
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rollexx

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2007, 08:51:15 PM »
IMO there is nothing that anyone can do to prove to a TRUE FEer that the Earth is round. If you read thru the FAQ its clear, at least to me, that only someone with serious mental health issues could believe this. I have a feeling that Tom, along with most everyone else in here are just having a little fun and using this "Flat Earth" debate as a means to have people question their beliefs and not take things at face value.
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Max Fagin

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2007, 08:52:07 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 10, 2007, 08:49:47 PM
Why should I need convincing when I already know that the Earth is Flat?

Because you're only human, and humans are fallible.  Come on Tom, are you telling me you've never been wrong before?
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2007, 08:56:56 PM »
Tom has stated that even if he were brought up to space and saw that the earth was round he still would believe the earth was flat and that this was an optical illusion. ::)  That's how convinced he is from his own experiments. ::) ::) ::)

Tom's an idiot. ;D
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Quote from: wise on August 21, 2018, 11:47:45 PM
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2007, 09:03:42 PM »
Quote
Because you're only human, and humans are fallible.  Come on Tom, are you telling me you've never been wrong before?

I've conducted many tests which confirms the reality of the Flat Earth. How many tests have you performed confirming the veracity of the Round Earth?

Here's a test I've repeated a number of times:

I live along the California Monterey Bay. It is a relatively long bay that sits next to the Pacific Ocean. The exact distance between the extremes of the Monterey Bay, Lovers Point in Pacific Grove and Lighthouse State Beach in Santa Cruz, is 33.4 statute miles. See this map.

On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa. With a good telescope, laying down on the stomach at the edge of the shore on the Lovers Point beach 10 inches above the sea level it is possible to see people at the waters edge on the adjacent beach 33 miles away. Since the supposed curvature of the Round Earth inclines at 8 inches per mile, this should not be possible. There should be a bulge of water twenty two feet tall blocking my view.

Whenever I have doubts about the shape of the earth I walk outside, down to the beach, and perform this test. The same result comes up over and over throughout the year under different atmospheric conditions.

Quote
Tom has stated that even if he were brought up to space and saw that the earth was round he still would believe the earth was flat and that this was an optical illusion. Roll Eyes  That's how convinced he is from his own experiments.

Flat Earth's horizon will look curved from space due to the sphere of vision. This subject has been brought up before.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 09:14:47 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Dilla

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2007, 09:51:41 PM »
Quote from: Max Fagin on May 10, 2007, 08:52:07 PM
Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 10, 2007, 08:49:47 PM
Why should I need convincing when I already know that the Earth is Flat?

Because you're only human, and humans are fallible.  Come on Tom, are you telling me you've never been wrong before?


Just look at my sig
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Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 10, 2007, 07:21:50 PM
Wavelength and intensity have nothing to do with frequency.
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Franc T., Planar

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2007, 09:54:53 PM »
Quote from: Ulrichomega on May 10, 2007, 08:11:46 PM
I have stopped posting recently due to the bull-headedness of most FE'ers, but recently I was wondering something...

What  could prove that the Earth is Round to those like Tom who disbelieve anything?

This is an honest question that I don't expect an honest answer to.

Bye.

Nothing.
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sokarul

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2007, 10:00:43 PM »
Quote from: Dilla on May 10, 2007, 09:51:41 PM
Quote from: Max Fagin on May 10, 2007, 08:52:07 PM
Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 10, 2007, 08:49:47 PM
Why should I need convincing when I already know that the Earth is Flat?

Because you're only human, and humans are fallible.  Come on Tom, are you telling me you've never been wrong before?


Just look at my sig
hahaha
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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2007, 10:06:13 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 10, 2007, 09:03:42 PM
This subject has been brought up before.

Yes, Tom.  That's what I said.  That's what the sentence fragment "Tom has stated" refers to. ::)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 10:24:31 PM by Roundy the Globularist »
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Quote from: wise on August 21, 2018, 11:47:45 PM
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?
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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2007, 10:27:41 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 10, 2007, 09:03:42 PM
I live along the California Monterey Bay. It is a relatively long bay that sits next to the Pacific Ocean. The exact distance between the extremes of the Monterey Bay, Lovers Point in Pacific Grove and Lighthouse State Beach in Santa Cruz, is 33.4 statute miles. See this map.


Just as a starter, other maps seem to have the distance at about 23 statute miles.
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Max Fagin

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2007, 10:52:08 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 10, 2007, 09:03:42 PM
How many tests have you performed confirming the veracity of the Round Earth?

Quite a few actually, since the shape of the Earth is vital to my field of study (Astronomy) I have made several measurements that indicate that the Earth is round.  Here are a few things that I have observed that indicate RE:

-The change of the sun and stars positions with latitude, consistent to living on a sphere.
-Observation of planetary motions consistent with the Earth being a sphere in motion around the sun.
-Stellar parallax (not RE, but geo-kinetisism)
-Aberration of starlight (Again, not RE, but geo-kinetisim)

Let me make this clear: I realize that FE has an explanation for all of the above phenomena.

But while FE may be able to provide a explanation whereby these observations may be accounted for (Atmospheric distortion, the denial of the universal applicability of the laws of physics, Celestial domes, Aether are some of the ones I've heard to account for these specifically) FE does not provide a mathematical model whereby these phenomena can be predicted as accurately as RE.  Take the planetary motions.  When FE'ers have a model whereby the positions of the planets can be predicted more accurately then RE, then I'll be impressed.


Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 10, 2007, 09:03:42 PM
On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa. With a good telescope, laying down on the stomach at the edge of the shore on the Lovers Point beach 10 inches above the sea level it is possible to see people at the waters edge on the adjacent beach 33 miles away. Since the supposed curvature of the Round Earth inclines at 8 inches per mile, this should not be possible. There should be a bulge of water twenty-two feet tall blocking my view.

Not to make an ad hominem attack here Tom, but I'm not inclined to trust your ability to make unbiased observations when you are inclined to make such demonstrably false statements as:

Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 09, 2007, 12:53:29 PM
satellites are invisible to telescopes and the naked eye.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 09, 2007, 01:30:53 PM
The ISS is geostationary, and therefore the ISS has no bearing or pretense for speeds.

And cite sources like:

Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 09, 2007, 01:30:53 PM
satellites are invisible

Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 09, 2007, 12:35:05 PM
Geostationary Banana over Texas.

Again, I'm sorry if that sounds like a personal attack meant to sidestep the issue.  But it's hard for me to just take your word that you've performed your experiment correctly when several other of your 'observations' can and have been shown to be false.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 10:57:09 PM by Max Fagin »
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Jamesblonde

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2007, 11:08:12 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 10, 2007, 08:49:47 PM
Why should I need convincing when the truth is that the Earth is Flat?

It's you, Ulrichomega, who needs to step outside of the fantasy and consider reality for a moment.

As a "proponent" of the theory don't you or any other proponents have a desire to prove once and for all that you are right? If not then why bother?
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Colonel Gaydafi

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2007, 02:19:05 AM »
Quote from: Franc T., Planar on May 10, 2007, 09:54:53 PM
Quote from: Ulrichomega on May 10, 2007, 08:11:46 PM
I have stopped posting recently due to the bull-headedness of most FE'ers, but recently I was wondering something...

What  could prove that the Earth is Round to those like Tom who disbelieve anything?

This is an honest question that I don't expect an honest answer to.

Bye.

Nothing.

;D
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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2007, 03:22:07 AM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 10, 2007, 09:03:42 PM

I live along the California Monterey Bay. It is a relatively long bay that sits next to the Pacific Ocean. The exact distance between the extremes of the Monterey Bay, Lovers Point in Pacific Grove and Lighthouse State Beach in Santa Cruz, is 33.4 statute miles. See this map.

On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa. With a good telescope, laying down on the stomach at the edge of the shore on the Lovers Point beach 10 inches above the sea level it is possible to see people at the waters edge on the adjacent beach 33 miles away. Since the supposed curvature of the Round Earth inclines at 8 inches per mile, this should not be possible. There should be a bulge of water twenty two feet tall blocking my view.

We need to know how far above the water your eye is....I mean, is your chin in the water?  Are you propped up on your elbows?
I've been on those beaches near Santa Cruz and as I remember, there's a nice slope.  So we need to know how far up that sloping beach you are seeing these people. 
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Bushido

Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2007, 04:00:18 AM »
Quote from: Mrs. More on May 10, 2007, 10:27:41 PM
Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 10, 2007, 09:03:42 PM
I live along the California Monterey Bay. It is a relatively long bay that sits next to the Pacific Ocean. The exact distance between the extremes of the Monterey Bay, Lovers Point in Pacific Grove and Lighthouse State Beach in Santa Cruz, is 33.4 statute miles. See this map.


Just as a starter, other maps seem to have the distance at about 23 statute miles.

I have also found that this distance is 23 statute miles by using Google Maps. He must have referred to the length of the road.

Nevertheless, using the (very accurate) approximate formula (based on a RE model):


we can conclude that a person that is 6 ft (72 in) high, has a vision of sight 3 miles (1 league) away. That means that two standing persons can barely see the tips of their heads when they are 6 miles (2 leagues) away. This is far less even than 23 miles.

One the other hand, if you look at some photographs taken by people on sites near Pacific Grove, there is no sight of Santa Cruz.
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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2007, 04:13:44 AM »
There's a nice web site here  http://www.icogitate.com/~ergosum/essays/vtth/viewtothehorizon.htm
Some information on the atmospheric conditions on Monterey Bay and pics of Lighthouse State Beach. 
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Bushido

Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2007, 04:23:41 AM »
I think this is a very important issue:

Quote
Atmospheric effects are important. If there were no air, then the information about heights and distances would be enough to calculate the size of the Earth. In fact, I tried it that way first, since I didn't realize how important atmospheric effects would be. The result that was not even close. To get a good result, we need to understand the refraction of light in a clear, well-mixed lower atmosphere.

On most days, a temperature inversion normally blocks or distorts the long-distance view over Monterey Bay. Typically the view is obscured by fog or mist. But even when the air is clear, an inversion distorts the path of light so that distant objects appear in atypical positions. The most severe conditions produce a type of mirage, the Fata Moraga, discussed in the Appendix.

Fortunately, the normal inversion is dissipated by the weather on days when the alignment is clearly visible. In this case, we can use a standard model of the lower atmosphere to calculate the refraction of light as it passes through air.


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Mrs. Peach

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2007, 06:37:39 AM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 10, 2007, 09:03:42 PM

I've conducted many tests which confirms the reality of the Flat Earth. How many tests have you performed confirming the veracity of the Round Earth?

Here's a test I've repeated a number of times:

I live along the California Monterey Bay. It is a relatively long bay that sits next to the Pacific Ocean. The exact distance between the extremes of the Monterey Bay, Lovers Point in Pacific Grove and Lighthouse State Beach in Santa Cruz, is 33.4 statute miles. See this map.

On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa. With a good telescope, laying down on the stomach at the edge of the shore on the Lovers Point beach 10 inches above the sea level it is possible to see people at the waters edge on the adjacent beach 33 miles away. Since the supposed curvature of the Round Earth inclines at 8 inches per mile, this should not be possible. There should be a bulge of water twenty two feet tall blocking my view.

Whenever I have doubts about the shape of the earth I walk outside, down to the beach, and perform this test. The same result comes up over and over throughout the year under different atmospheric conditions.


Now that I think about it, on a flat earth you should be able to see a heck of a lot further than your 33 miles.  The next time you take your telescope to the beach, look NNW. You should be able to see that little island off Ano Nuevo State Reserve if the earth is indeed flat. 
« Last Edit: May 11, 2007, 06:48:27 AM by Mrs. More »
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Dilla

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2007, 08:52:43 AM »
Quote from: Mrs. More on May 11, 2007, 04:13:44 AM
There's a nice web site here  http://www.icogitate.com/~ergosum/essays/vtth/viewtothehorizon.htm
Some information on the atmospheric conditions on Monterey Bay and pics of Lighthouse State Beach. 

Obviously they are being paid to post this.

 ::)
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Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 10, 2007, 07:21:50 PM
Wavelength and intensity have nothing to do with frequency.
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Geoff

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2007, 07:27:08 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 10, 2007, 09:03:42 PM
On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa. With a good telescope, laying down on the stomach at the edge of the shore on the Lovers Point beach 10 inches above the sea level it is possible to see people at the waters edge on the adjacent beach 33 miles away. Since the supposed curvature of the Round Earth inclines at 8 inches per mile, this should not be possible. There should be a bulge of water twenty two feet tall blocking my view.

The Earth curves down...
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Cadence

Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2007, 12:44:10 AM »
Tom's point about seeing the otherside of Monterey Bay is completely valid. According to RE calculations the other side of the bay should be 353 feet below an observers horizontal gaze.

Atmospheric refraction, even in the case of an extreme temperature inversion can in no way explain the other side appearing to be exactly opposite Tom. Refraction is just not that powerful over such a short distance. Even if it was, the conditions that caused the refraction would have to be exactly the same every time he did the experiment, which is amazingly improbable. Furthermore this sort of experiment produces the same result all over the world, and as far as i can work out, we don't really have an explanation as to why.

I'd invite people post and help me understand what is causing this effect.
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Mongrelman

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2007, 01:10:19 AM »
Quote from: Cadence on May 13, 2007, 12:44:10 AM
Tom's point about seeing the otherside of Monterey Bay is completely valid. According to RE calculations the other side of the bay should be 353 feet below an observers horizontal gaze.

"With a good telescope, laying down on the stomach at the edge of the shore on the Lovers Point beach 10 inches above the sea level it is possible to see people at the waters edge on the adjacent beach 33 miles away. Since the supposed curvature of the Round Earth inclines at 8 inches per mile, this should not be possible."

Important parts are bolded.

8 inches/mile * 33 miles = 264 inches = 22 feet.  About 15 1/3 feet if it were actually 23 miles, but I'll assume Tom is correct.  In 33 miles, the Earth would have curved by 22 feet.  Unless I am very much mislead or confused, the other side of the bay should be about 22 feet below an observer's horrizontal gaze, not 353.  But I truly could be severely mistaken, so I hope you can show where 353 feet came from.  I just don't see it.

Still, he technically shouldn't be able to see it.  And I don't know what the explanation is.  Perhaps the fact that he is not directly on sea level factors in.  I don't have a clue.  However, I could point out similar discrepencies in an FE.

@ Ulrichomega: Truth as I see it, though I could be wrong, is that the FE'ers don't want to be convinced of a round Earth anymore than you want to be convinced of a flat earth.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 01:45:00 AM by Mongrelman... Or so I'm told... »
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TheEngineer

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2007, 01:54:02 AM »
Quote from: Mongrelman... Or so I'm told... on May 13, 2007, 01:10:19 AM
8 inches/mile * 33 miles = 264 inches = 22 feet.
You are assuming the slope is linear.  It is not.
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Mongrelman

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2007, 01:56:44 AM »
Quote from: TheEngineer on May 13, 2007, 01:54:02 AM
Quote from: Mongrelman... Or so I'm told... on May 13, 2007, 01:10:19 AM
8 inches/mile * 33 miles = 264 inches = 22 feet.
You are assuming the slope is linear.  It is not.

Well, I didn't mean to be assuming that, I'm just going with mathematics as I know them.  Would you mind explaining how it equates to 353 miles?  Even if you just copy and paste the answer from somewhere else, I'd appreciate it.  I just don't understand.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 02:01:53 AM by Mongrelman... Or so I'm told... »
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TheEngineer

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2007, 02:06:44 AM »
For the sake of easiness, we will just assume we are interested in the apparent drop over a distance of 23 miles.

Drop = (sqrt(radius of the earth^2 + distance^2)-radius of the earth)*5280ft/mile

=(sqrt(3963.1676^2 + 23^2)-3963.1676)*5280ft/mi = 352.382 feet

This is all based on simple right triangles.
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Mongrelman

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2007, 02:13:33 AM »
I can't even begin to make any sense of that because there is one simple thing that I do not know: What ^2 means.  Remember when I got mixed up between velocity and acceleration?  That was because I have no clue what ^2 means in any formula.  I'm really sorry for my ignorance, and I'm truly not trying to be sarcastic.  For the sake of improving my perspective, could someone please tell me what is repesented by "3963.1676^2 + 23^2"?
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TheEngineer

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2007, 02:16:49 AM »
^2 means 'squared' or raised to the second power.

Thus, 2^2=4, 2^3=8, 3^2=9
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Mongrelman

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Re: Anything that will prove it?
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2007, 02:21:02 AM »
Quote from: TheEngineer on May 13, 2007, 02:16:49 AM
^2 means 'squared' or raised to the second power.

Thus, 2^2=4, 2^3=8, 3^2=9

OH, ok.  Thanks.  Honestly, I have a character keyboard, so I'm very used to being able to type X² or 1,657² without much difficulty.  Not used to seeing it written that way.

Now I understand every aspect of the formula.  Still not entirely certain I understand how that is used to find drop, BUT it does make since.  Thanks for clarifying.

EDIT:  Ignore the part that is crossed out.  I just drew a diagram and did the math.  For all purposes, the fact that he can see the people truly does not make sense to me assuming a round Earth.  First FE point I've seen that actually evokes some thought.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 02:31:34 AM by Mongrelman... Or so I'm told... »
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