Airplanes

The Engineer may be a rec. pilot, but this is what my dad flew for 20 years:

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/t-38/

As far as the highest altitude an airplane can go, it depends on the aircraft because there is a fine line between what is considered astronautical and aeronautical.  For instance, the X-15 is probably the highest flying aircraft made; record flights have reached over 100miles (the limits for astronautical used to be only 50miles, but because of these flights were extended to 100 miles).  This jet is considered more of a rocket-jet. Pictures taken from this aircraft easily show the visible curve of the earth.

Q1: This map is constructed on the basis of a RE model. How does using a map based on a RE model bring you to the desired location on a Flat Earth?

It's very possible to navigate on a north-polar azimuthal map projection of a Round Earth.

Q2: How do you know what distance you have moved and in what direction on the map?

A compass.

As far as the highest altitude an airplane can go, it depends on the aircraft because there is a fine line between what is considered astronautical and aeronautical.  For instance, the X-15 is probably the highest flying aircraft made; record flights have reached over 100miles (the limits for astronautical used to be only 50miles, but because of these flights were extended to 100 miles).  This jet is considered more of a rocket-jet. Pictures taken from this aircraft easily show the visible curve of the earth.

High altitude observations don't really provide proof for a Round Earth.

The reason why the earth might look round from very high altitudes is because of Snell's Law. I'm sure you have seen that when you put a pencil halfway in a glass of water, it appears to be broken. This is because water is more denser than air and light rays bend when the density and temperature of the medium changes. This is known as the Snell Law.

Have you ever seen the outside temperature readings on an airplanes' info channel? It goes all the way down to a few degrees, because atmosphere gets colder as you ascend. When one is looking down from a plane to the surface of the earth they are looking through an atmosphere that gets warmer (and therefore more dense) as it descends. This causes light rays from the earth to bend and makes the surface look curved - just like the pencil in the water getting broken. It's not a sharp break as in the pencil example but a smooth curve, because the temperature and density changes gradually, not suddenly.

High altitude observations don't really provide proof for a Round Earth.

This wasn't what I thought when I started the thread.I wanted to ask how is it possible to take pictures from above a hurricane without a satellite?

And do meteorologist use satellite images also?

This wasn't what I thought when I started the thread.I wanted to ask how is it possible to take pictures from above a hurricane without a satellite?

With a weather balloon, an airplane, a rocket, a helicopter, or a high altitude stratospheric airship.

And do meteorologist use satellite images also?

They use whatever meteorology data the government hands out to them. The source likely comes from vehicles called 'stratellites'.

Quote

Q1: This map is constructed on the basis of a RE model. How does using a map based on a RE model bring you to the desired location on a Flat Earth?

It's very possible to navigate on a north-polar azimuthal map projection of a Round Earth.

     It is, but you still suppose the Earth is round and move along great circles, which are the lines of shortest distance between two points instead of going along a curve which is equivalent to a straight line on a north-polar azimuthal map projection and which would have been the line of shortest distance on a Flat Earth.

     Also, it is You who used the term 'north-polar azimuthal map projection of a Round Earth', not I. So, you admit that FE-ers do not have a valid map, but instead use a projection map from the RE model.

Now, claiming that a map tells you your latitude when you don't know where you are on the map is the same as claiming a compass shows you the latitude.

I don't remember claiming that.  You asked what instrument tells you your latitude.  If I know where I am on a map, I can read off my latitude.

so there must be some device in an aircraft to show you your current latitude (yes, even if the aircraft doesn't have GPS, like back in WWII). ...

If a plane is over the ocean and out of reach of all VOR stations and has no GPS, there has always been a handy device to determine latitude.  It's called a navigator and he uses a compass and a good clock and a map and resorts to a good old fashioned sextant if he gets real good and lost and has a mountain of charts and clear views of the sun or stars.  Like back in WW II.

Quote from: Bushido on April 05, 2007, 11:28:17 AM

Now, claiming that a map tells you your latitude when you don't know where you are on the map is the same as claiming a compass shows you the latitude.

I don't remember claiming that.  You asked what instrument tells you your latitude.  If I know where I am on a map, I can read off my latitude.

How do you know where you are on the map?

Also, you seem you did not see this:

Quote from: Tom Bishop on April 05, 2007, 11:45:04 AM

Quote

Q1:This map is constructed on the basis of a RE model. How  does using a map based on a RE model bring you to the desired location on a Flat Earth?

It's very possible to navigate on a north-polar azimuthal map projection of a Round Earth.

     It is, but you still suppose the Earth is round and move along great circles, which are the lines of shortest distance between two points instead of going along a curve which is equivalent to a straight line on a north-polar azimuthal map projection and which would have been the line of shortest distance on a Flat Earth.

     Also, it is You who used the term 'north-polar azimuthal map projection of a Round Earth', not I. So, you admit that FE-ers do not have a valid map, but instead use a projection map from the RE model.

How do you know where you are on the map?

Usually, by identifying land marks.  If I look around and see my stuff inside a man made structure, then I know that I am at my house.  I know where on the earth my house is located, so I find that spot on a map and read off my latitude.

Also, you seem you did not see this: ... bla....bla

I'm not Tom Bishop.

Quote from: Bushido on April 06, 2007, 12:56:42 AM

How do you know where you are on the map?

Usually, by identifying land marks.  If I look around and see my stuff inside a man made structure, then I know that I am at my house.  I know where on the earth my house is located, so I find that spot on a map and read off my latitude.

What if you are over the sea where are no landmarks?How do you know where you are then?

I know how to navigate.

How do you navigate?

With a map, a watch, a compass and an airspeed indicator, plus a VOR if I am lucky.

Magnetic or GPS compass?

And we are back to my first question:

Quote from: TheEngineer on April 05, 2007, 11:22:44 AM

...

Quote

so there must be some device in an aircraft to show you your current latitude (yes, even if the aircraft doesn't have GPS, like back in WWII). When I asked you:

It's called a map.
...

Q1: This map is constructed on the basis of a RE model. How does using a map based on a RE model bring you to the desired location on a Flat Earth?

Map looks pretty flat to me.

     Ha ha ha! Of course it does, that's because it's a projection. Unfortunately, the distances on the map are not all proportional to real distances across the Earth. Thus, if you use the method to calculate the change of latitude using distance covered (airspeed x time of flight), you will think that you are on a point on the map that is not the point where you really are. Now, these discrepancies are smaller if you cover smaller distances, like if you fly a crop dusting plane, but for intercontinental flights may become disastrous, because, instead of arriving in London, you will land in Iceland, that is if you don’t run out of fuel before that.

Note:

     The formulas for calculating change in latitude are based on a RE model. One may assume that this is because latitude were deliberately defined to conceal a RE concpiracy and we use these complex formulas because we were only told to do so. On the other hand, one may assume the Earth to be round.

Map looks pretty flat to me.

You missed my somewhat serious question. 

Magnetic or GPS compass?

Magnetic.  Only a few of the aircraft I fly have a GPS system installed, but maybe one of these days I'll get myself a unit.

Unfortunately, the distances on the map are not all proportional to real distances across the Earth. Thus, if you use the method to calculate the change of latitude using distance covered (airspeed x time of flight), you will think that you are on a point on the map that is not the point where you really are.

So now RE maps can't be used to navigate the RE?  Wow, and I thought we had the conspiracies!

When you are flying, Engineer, do you use a FE map or a RE map?

I don't know where I can get a aeronautical sectional of the FE.

Well, nowhere, cause it doesn't exist