Watch as a FEer attempts to debunk a round earth...laughable to say the least

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Dinosaur Neil

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Perhaps. It's unfortunate that it is so accurate, wouldn't you say sokarul?
I’m not sure if old Ludwig would agree with you on that score.
Beethoven was a life long flatist. Most men of reason are. Which score are you referring to?
I have never met a single person of reason who thought the earth flat.
I suggest you meet more people of reason then.

Perhaps. It's unfortunate that it is so accurate, wouldn't you say sokarul?

It's not accurate because it has to ignore any phenomena which travel beneath the surface of the earth. I think I have said this so many times now that virtually everyone on the forum has seen it.
Odd then, that you never address this incongruity that totally destroys your model, isn't it?
It doesn't ignore this at all. The fact that you think it does says that you don't understand the non-euclidean relative theory. However, this is aside from the issue at hand - that the surface of the earth and its geography is just non-euclidean. If I recall correctly, various versions of this have been around for the last 5 years starting with the collapsing state map and now culminating in its fruit the non-euclidean map.

Your non-euclidean geometry states that the surface is a flat plane. By extension, any straight line going downwards into the earth's surface (at any angle from shallow to perpendicular) can never emerge again, because the laws of your geometry do not permit it. Even in your non-euclidean universe, the shortest distance between two points remains a straight line. However, you have created a model where a curved path beneath the earth's surface actually follows a shorter path than a straight line would, which is clearly nonsense.
Yet many things traverse below the surface of the earth - seismic waves, neutrinos, etc. In your model, these should never emerge again. But they do. Your model provides no explanation for them. I'm sorry, but you're going to have to do better than your feeble "you're wrong because you don't understand my theory" if you want to rebuff what I'm saying. If I'm wrong, explain why I'm wrong, in layman's terms. The fact is, your crappy model mixes both euclidean and non-euclidean geometry in order to fudge lines which are straight with respect to spacetime and lines which are straight with respect to observation. In your model, the plane of the earth acts as a boundary, and below that boundary the geometry breaks down.
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Badxtoss

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They can't be that reasonable if they believe in the odd idea of a globe, but I suppose I'm making it a bit of a true Scotsman situation, so I'll digress.

When I say both directions I mean the direction outwards from the center and the gravity exercing a force downwards.

You appear to be describing a spherical Earth.

Why should I be describing spherical earth? If you put a little lego man on top of a disk and you spin it, the lego man will fall because of the centripedal force pulling OUTWARDS and GRAVITY pulling DOWNWARDS.

By the way, it doesn’t have sense of us being the only flat planet. How is it that when I look the planets with my (decent enough) amateur telescope I can observe how they spin throughout days.

Perhaps they spin throughout the days?

You still haven’t answered my question, how can I see that other planets spin LIKE A SPHERE WOULD but instead earth doesn’t spin like a sphere (from a FEer’s perspective)

Saturn has rings. Why doesn't Jupiter have rings? They are both planets.
Shouldn't they be the same?

Shouldn't Earth be a huge ball of gas like Jupiter and have rings like Saturn?

Jupiter does have rings.  As do Uranus and Neptune.



But Earth does not.
Are you now saying Earth is NOT like planets?





Excellently pointed out.

I do have to say this thread delivered on its title. There has been nothing but hilarity from camp round.
Obviously you are wrong about reasonable people.  They need only look at the evidence to conclude that there is no evidence for a flat earth that isn't as well or better explained by a globe.
They also would not think it reasonable for there to be some massive conspiracy of at least thousands of people trying to fake space images etc.  reasonable people see that as nonsense.

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Even in your non-euclidean universe, the shortest distance between two points remains a straight line.
Incorrect.
If you can't a?rgue both sides, you understand neither

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rabinoz

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It doesn't ignore this at all. The fact that you think it does says that you don't understand the non-euclidean relative theory.
OK, point us to some concise documentation on your non-Euclidean flat earth theory so that we may understand the non-euclidean relative theory.

Under Einstein's GR I will agree that spacetime is curved and so non-Euclidean, but that is curvature in spacetime, not simply space.
Both the time-like and space-like components of spacetime do have curvature
In the vicinity of comparatively small masses such as within the solar system that curvature is extremely small.
The effect on space in the vicinity of earth is to simply increase the diameter of earth around 4 mm over what it would be were space Euclidean.

So under Einstein's GR for all practical purposes, even when high precision is required the space earth occupies is Euclidean.
 
Quote from: John Davis
However, this is aside from the issue at hand - that the surface of the earth and its geography is just non-euclidean.
Not really! The earth occupies what is almost precisely a 3-D Euclidean space.

But, if movement were constrained to the surface, then that can be considered a 2-D non-Euclidean space.
That is a convenient approximation when if comes to calculating distances and directions on the Globe.
But, in fact movement is not constrained to the surface of the earth.
We can go (a very small distance admittedly) under the surface and travel (in principle at least) an unlimited distance above the earth.

So, while non-Euclidean 2-D space is a convenient approximation, it is quite untrue to say, "surface of the earth and its geography is just non-euclidean".

Quote from: John Davis
If I recall correctly, various versions of this have been around for the last 5 years starting with the collapsing state map and now culminating in its fruit the non-euclidean map.
Maybe so, but you have never, to my very imperfect knowledge justified your hypothesis.

There is no way Einstein's GR justifies anything that could make a flat earth look like a sphere.

So, please give some experimental and/or theoretical justification for you Ferrari Effect and non-Euclidean earth/map or just admit its no more than a figment of your imagination.

And I claim this this statement of yours is totally false, "EINSTEIN'S RELATIVITY PROVES THE EARTH IS FLAT".
I have called you out on that before, but you have done nothing the remove EINSTEIN'S RELATIVITY PROVES THE EARTH IS FLAT.

In that you have numerous misleading statements, such as:
Quote
Let’s interpret the ramifications of the statement: an object in orbit travels in a straight (and thus flat), line through space through further thought experiment. First, we can define our field of interest in that taking all such theoretical orbits of our planet and realize them rightly as flat, thus defining the bounding space of interest also to be flat. It follows, given any orbit of this planet to be flat, the planet itself is flat since it satisfies our definition of flatness.
No, there is no way "an object in orbit travels in a straight (and thus flat), line through space" can be derived for GR.

Under GR an object in orbit travels in (close to) an elliptical path in space, and it only travels in a straight line (I would prefer1 the term, geodesic) in spacetime - a massive difference.

If you want to claim that you can justify a Davisian Relativity that says that, fine - but please either prove it factual or admit it's still nothing more that a day-dream to confuse everybody and make John Davis look ever-so-smart.

[1] This is not meant as a criticism of John Davis.
      Many writers use the term straight line in this context, but I find geodesic less confusing.




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Dinosaur Neil

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Even in your non-euclidean universe, the shortest distance between two points remains a straight line.
Incorrect.

No, it's correct. Straight line in this context was used to mean what Rabinoz more accurately called a geodesic. You were interpreting it as meaning a straight line relative to spacetime. But then it's hardly any wonder you get confused, since you fudge the two concepts in your miserable little "theory".
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So, tell me. Why do you believe the earth to be round?

The Earth isn't round or flat, it's elliptical because of centrifugal force

The Earth won't be 'round much longer...
No, it spins on its axis and orbits the sun. The 2 are fundamentally different... Because when an object spins, it does so about its axis.

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Even in your non-euclidean universe, the shortest distance between two points remains a straight line.
Incorrect.

No, it's correct. Straight line in this context was used to mean what Rabinoz more accurately called a geodesic. You were interpreting it as meaning a straight line relative to spacetime. But then it's hardly any wonder you get confused, since you fudge the two concepts in your miserable little "theory".
Yes, it is incorrect.


Geodesic would be an incorrect and inaccurate term to use here as we are not dealing with curved surfaces.
If you can't a?rgue both sides, you understand neither

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rabinoz

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Even in your non-euclidean universe, the shortest distance between two points remains a straight line.
Incorrect.

No, it's correct. Straight line in this context was used to mean what Rabinoz more accurately called a geodesic. You were interpreting it as meaning a straight line relative to spacetime. But then it's hardly any wonder you get confused, since you fudge the two concepts in your miserable little "theory".
Yes, it is incorrect.

Geodesic would be an incorrect and inaccurate term to use here as we are not dealing with curved surfaces.
Really? Just who is "not dealing with curved surfaces"?
You certainly seem to claim that your surface looks curved and presumably measures as curved.

Quote
Geodesic
A geodesic is a locally length-minimizing curve. Equivalently, it is a path that a particle which is not accelerating would follow. In the plane, the geodesics are straight lines. On the sphere, the geodesics are great circles (like the equator). The geodesics in a space depend on the Riemannian metric, which affects the notions of distance and acceleration.


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rabinoz

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So, tell me. Why do you believe the earth to be round?

The Earth isn't round or flat, it's elliptical because of centrifugal force


Sure, but only by about 0.3%. That's pretty close to a sphere!

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Straight

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So, tell me. Why do you believe the earth to be round?

The Earth isn't round or flat, it's elliptical because of centrifugal force



Animation courtesy of NASA and WMAP

Hmm...

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Watch as a FEer attempts to debunk a round earth...laughable to say the least
« Reply #100 on: December 11, 2017, 04:42:46 PM »
Close enough is not good enough. Stop calling the earth what it isn't. A sphere has to be utterly perfect and be measureable to pi to an infinite amount of places. This is despite the fact you only need to go to ~60 decimal places to get within a Planck's length accuracy of the observable universe. A sphere is only theoretical. There is not one instance in reality you could point to that is actually a sphere. 'spherical' is not a sphere. It's like saying 'it looks' not 'IT IS'

The earth is not a sphere. And compared to the vast size of the universe (that is looking at the entire universe as well as the earth in a single frame), it's flat.




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Re: Watch as a FEer attempts to debunk a round earth...laughable to say the least
« Reply #101 on: December 11, 2017, 07:55:54 PM »
The issue with an accurate representation of a flat earth map comes up a lot. There have been some suggestions.
 
Personally, I believe it is a closed finite surface in non-euclidean space. This is a mouthful of math terms, but the end result of this is that its difficult if not impossible to create a map of the flat earth, similar to how it would be impossible to map the globe model to paper accurately without use of projections. The underlying problem is the assumption you can draw accurately a very large body in curved space on a very small flat piece of piece of paper and have it hold to scrutiny without projecting it. We already know this isn't strictly the case.

It's basically assuming Euclid's postulates are correct even though we know for a fact they aren't - ignoring what was the greatest scientific revolution of the last 2000+ years. If the earth is non-euclidean and a closed finite space he is essentially asking the impossible.

Want he wants is a map that matches the globe. Its like saying "You believe elephants are gray. I won't believe you about elephants until you produce a blue elephant for me."

"Non-euclidean" isn't a magic word. Euclidean space has a positive definition. Non-Euclidean space is simply everything else. What properties does this specific Non-Euclidean space have, exactly?
Very true. I still laugh at when Neil DeGrasse Tyson tried to claim that you can't see curvature at sea level because its a basic postulate of non-euclidean geometry, despite the definition of a circle being one of Euclid's postulates. What a fool he is, hiding behind words he knows the populace can't understand.

Our Postulates:
  • A segment AB can be drawn joining any two points A and B.
  • Given segment AB and segment BC:
    A straight line AB can be drawn by extending line segment AB indefinitely
    such that each point D on line AB is on a line segment CD that is congruent and normal to CB and CA.
  • The line AB will intersect each of its points at length of its period
  • ...

These postulates follow directly from the Satellite Thought Experiment. I am still attempting to reduce the total postulates to 4 by combining postulate 3. It seems very realizable.

Relevent Definitions:
Point: A is a point if it is indivisble
Period: The length for AB to intersect A
Line: A line is breadthless period.
Straight Line: A straight line is a line which lies evenly with the points on itself
Congruent: Segment AB is congruent to CA if they share length
Normal:  AB is normal to CD if they intersect at right angles

I'm still attempting to combine 2 and 3 to bring my total axiom count down to 4.
This is an earlier version of it that would be available to you.
If you can't a?rgue both sides, you understand neither

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rabinoz

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Re: Watch as a FEer attempts to debunk a round earth...laughable to say the least
« Reply #102 on: December 11, 2017, 08:37:28 PM »
Close enough is not good enough. Stop calling the earth what it isn't. A sphere has to be utterly perfect and be measureable to pi to an infinite amount of places. This is despite the fact you only need to go to ~60 decimal places to get within a Planck's length accuracy of the observable universe. A sphere is only theoretical. There is not one instance in reality you could point to that is actually a sphere. 'spherical' is not a sphere. It's like saying 'it looks' not 'IT IS'

The earth is not a sphere. And compared to the vast size of the universe (that is looking at the entire universe as well as the earth in a single frame), it's flat.
May we have your permission to call the earth a Globe?
If you look at the photo in this link it looks pretty round, Earth. The photo's a bit big to embed.

The deviation of the earth from being a perfect sphere is relatively small, with
    the Globe's polar radius being 6,356 km and the equatorial radius, 6,378 km, a difference of only 22 km.

The "bumps" on the earth's surface go from 10.9 km below to 8.8 km above sea level, a range of almost 20 km.
The flat earth would have these same "bumps" so by your standards the flat earth isn't flat either.

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Watch as a FEer attempts to debunk a round earth...laughable to say the least
« Reply #103 on: December 11, 2017, 08:48:37 PM »
Close enough is not good enough. Stop calling the earth what it isn't. A sphere has to be utterly perfect and be measureable to pi to an infinite amount of places. This is despite the fact you only need to go to ~60 decimal places to get within a Planck's length accuracy of the observable universe. A sphere is only theoretical. There is not one instance in reality you could point to that is actually a sphere. 'spherical' is not a sphere. It's like saying 'it looks' not 'IT IS'

The earth is not a sphere. And compared to the vast size of the universe (that is looking at the entire universe as well as the earth in a single frame), it's flat.
May we have your permission to call the earth a Globe?
If you look at the photo in this link it looks pretty round, Earth. The photo's a bit big to embed.

The deviation of the earth from being a perfect sphere is relatively small, with
    the Globe's polar radius being 6,356 km and the equatorial radius, 6,378 km, a difference of only 22 km.

The "bumps" on the earth's surface go from 10.9 km below to 8.8 km above sea level, a range of almost 20 km.
The flat earth would have these same "bumps" so by your standards the flat earth isn't flat either.

You have my permission to call the earth a globe  8) For all intents and purposes, that's how it works for us

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

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Nightsky

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Re: Watch as a FEer attempts to debunk a round earth...laughable to say the least
« Reply #104 on: December 11, 2017, 08:57:27 PM »
Perhaps. It's unfortunate that it is so accurate, wouldn't you say sokarul?
I’m not sure if old Ludwig would agree with you on that score.
Beethoven was a life long flatist. Most men of reason are. Which score are you referring to?

Wrong Ludwig....I was reffering to Wittgenstein, as you appear to be fond of him which I find surprising.  What I have noticed you and other flat earthers are very fond of is just making things up. For example you say Beethoven was a flat earther.....verifiable reference please, though I think not’
Your statement is one of your attempts at distortion of the truth. Beethoven was in his day a radical and very much a man of the enlightenment, rather than an illogical flat earth believer.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 09:03:14 PM by Nightsky »
You can call me Gwyneth
I said that
Oh for the love of- Logical formulation:
FET is wrong, unsupported by evidence, and most models are refuted on multiple fronts; those that aren't tend not to make enough predictions to be realistically falsifiable
Jane said these

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Re: Watch as a FEer attempts to debunk a round earth...laughable to say the least
« Reply #105 on: December 11, 2017, 09:08:36 PM »
Ah Wittgenstein. Yea I mentioned him, did I?
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Nightsky

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Re: Watch as a FEer attempts to debunk a round earth...laughable to say the least
« Reply #106 on: December 11, 2017, 09:19:07 PM »
Ah Wittgenstein. Yea I mentioned him, did I?

Oh.... it appears you forgot to include the Beethoven, flat earth link...lost it have you?
The reason why I reminded you of Wittgenstein, is that he had some interesting things to say on truth that you may wish to read.
You can call me Gwyneth
I said that
Oh for the love of- Logical formulation:
FET is wrong, unsupported by evidence, and most models are refuted on multiple fronts; those that aren't tend not to make enough predictions to be realistically falsifiable
Jane said these

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Re: Watch as a FEer attempts to debunk a round earth...laughable to say the least
« Reply #107 on: December 11, 2017, 09:20:19 PM »
Unfortunately, not everything is available through link. You know, because the internet isn't just a magic box filled with truth.
If you can't a?rgue both sides, you understand neither

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Nightsky

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Re: Watch as a FEer attempts to debunk a round earth...laughable to say the least
« Reply #108 on: December 11, 2017, 09:21:55 PM »
Unfortunately, not everything is available through link. You know, because the internet isn't just a magic box filled with truth.

So what your trying to tell me you just made it up.
You can call me Gwyneth
I said that
Oh for the love of- Logical formulation:
FET is wrong, unsupported by evidence, and most models are refuted on multiple fronts; those that aren't tend not to make enough predictions to be realistically falsifiable
Jane said these

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rabinoz

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Re: Watch as a FEer attempts to debunk a round earth...laughable to say the least
« Reply #109 on: December 11, 2017, 09:39:14 PM »
Beethoven was a life long flatist. Most men of reason are.
Please provide documentary evidence that "Beethoven was a life long flatist" or admit that you are simply making up stories.
Then list these "most men of reason" that you claim also are also flatists.

In reality it would seem that you have no more evidence for statements lIke that than you have for your imagined non-Euclidean flat/globe earth.

What you flatularists will not face is that millions out in the real world have to know the real shape of the earth simply to do their jobs.
And you just sit around in your flat-earth sand-box imagining all these different flat earth models.

If the earth really were flat all these things would have been known millennia ago.
Those Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Indians and Chinese were pretty smart people.

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rabinoz

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Re: Watch as a FEer attempts to debunk a round earth...laughable to say the least
« Reply #110 on: December 11, 2017, 09:41:38 PM »
Unfortunately, not everything is available through link. You know, because the internet isn't just a magic box filled with truth.
Yes, we realise that a lot of this material is fabricated as needed in your fertile brain.

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Nightsky

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Re: Watch as a FEer attempts to debunk a round earth...laughable to say the least
« Reply #111 on: December 11, 2017, 09:54:54 PM »
It’s a recurring theme with some people around here. They make a statement, you ask them to provide a bit of evidence then they either evade the question or go into silly mode.
You can call me Gwyneth
I said that
Oh for the love of- Logical formulation:
FET is wrong, unsupported by evidence, and most models are refuted on multiple fronts; those that aren't tend not to make enough predictions to be realistically falsifiable
Jane said these

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Username

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Re: Watch as a FEer attempts to debunk a round earth...laughable to say the least
« Reply #112 on: December 12, 2017, 11:55:14 AM »
Unfortunately, not everything is available through link. You know, because the internet isn't just a magic box filled with truth.

So what your trying to tell me you just made it up.
What I'm telling you is that books exist.
If you can't a?rgue both sides, you understand neither

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rabinoz

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Re: Watch as a FEer attempts to debunk a round earth...laughable to say the least
« Reply #113 on: December 12, 2017, 01:12:09 PM »
Unfortunately, not everything is available through link. You know, because the internet isn't just a magic box filled with truth.
So what your trying to tell me you just made it up.
What I'm telling you is that books exist.

If the books exist, please post the titles, authors and page numbers that you refer to.