They've lied to the world about the stars

You even had an example provided where they directly described the seeing conditions.
Which you choose to ignore because it doesn't match your fantasy.

We all know what 'seeing conditions' mean, what 'bad/poor seeing conditions' mean, what 'good/excellent seeing conditions' mean. The exact same as 'bad/poor visibility', and 'good/excellent visibility'!

That's not difficult to understand, is it? Are you suggesting it means something ELSE, and if you do, tell me exactly what you DO think 'seeing' means, I'd love to hear about it!!

Like I said, if you want to claim it is actually the star or Saturn or Jupiter that is moving like that, then provide footage from multiple locations at the same time showing the same motion.

Saturn is ALWAYS seen in motion, constant, endless motion, without ever stopping at all. There is NO effect of atmosphere which acts on objects constantly, eternally, to make them appear to move all the time, endlessly, that's just nonsense, and you know it, so don't play stupid, it's not going to work.

You've held up a 'heat haze', and claimed it is the same thing happening with stars, and with Saturn, when it's COMPLETELY different than how we see stars and Saturn, in every way possible.

A 'heat haze' is a TEMPORARY, RANDOMLY OCCURRING effect, like ALL atmospheric effects are. There are no endless, eternally acting effects of atmosphere, causing an eternal 'heat haze' somewhere on Earth!  They arise from certain, specific conditions, and before and after those conditions arise, there IS NO EFFECT AT ALL! 

When fog occurs, for example, it usually happens in late fall, at night, and early morning, right? By noon, perhaps, the fog vanishes away, or dissipates, within air, when the temperatures rise up, right? 

There is NO fog at all, at that point, it no longer exists, no longer is within air, no longer blurring out the air, it is no longer blurring out objects in the distance.

Same as 'heat haze' will occur somewhere, blur the air, blur out distant objects, and then - VANISH AWAY COMPLETELY WITHIN THE AIR, and no longer exists at all.

Why would you POSSIBLY not know that, when any CHILD already knows that, past the age of 4 or 5 years old? Cut the BS.

Otherwise, all the evidence points to the atmosphere.
You not liking that because it doesn't match your delusional fantasy doesn't magically make reality match your delusional fantasy.

We know who's got delusional fantasies here, the one claiming atmospheric effects act eternally on millions of objects, causing them to appear in constant, endless movements, creating millions of objects to all look and move differently from one another, in various degrees, and appear the same, move the same, for over 10000 years or so, the very same way, and ever since then, and always will, in future, of course.

Show me an eternally acting, eternally seen 'effect of atmosphere', you claim to exist, and acts on all the stars, causing an 'eternal motion' effect on all of them......

That's what you MUST show me, to support your absurd, ridiculous argument, one of the nuttiest claims I've ever heard, hands down.


YOUR claim is so loony, so brutally dumb, nobody has to consider if there IS or IS NOT any evidence supporting it, that's how crazy it is. 

Who would claim atmospheric effects act on objects eternally? Who would ever claim that an object, or a street, or a city, is within an ETERNAL fog, or within an ETERNAL 'heat haze'??!!??

THAT is your argument, is it not?  Of course it is. You think an effect of atmosphere has endlessly acted on all the stars, and on Saturn, making them all appear to be in constant, eternal motion, for thousands of years, without stop, right?

Why would anyone even TRY that argument, is truly baffling, in itself!

Since everyone here knows, atmospheric effects, every one of them, is a TEMPORARY thing, which is usually NOT in existence, which COMES INTO EXISTENCE, at certain times, at certain places, and then, VANISHES OUT OF EXISTENCE, once again, and repeats this cycle, where it comes to exist, and then ceases to exist, over and over again, at certain times and places on Earth.

I'm sure that you already KNOW that 'heat hazes', or any ACTUAL effects of atmosphere, are TEMPORARY, and will vanish away, later on, right? 

I mean, you don't really think any objects on Earth, are within an eternal 'heat haze', right?

Or perhaps, you believe that objects on Earth, are always in 'heat hazes', but nobody can see them most of the time?  If THAT'S your argument, it still stinks, because we ALWAYS see Saturn, and all the stars, in motion, endlessly and constantly in motion.

Atmospheric effects are NOT seen, nor any evidence of them even EXISTING, forever and ever anywhere, so your claim is, once again, complete nonsense.

This 'unknown and unseen and undetected', but ETERNALLY ACTING effects, of our atmosphere, wow, where did you get THAT one from? Any sources for that? 

So if you're argument is that the effects of atmosphere, are present, and acting out all the time, but we don't know or see them there, most of the time, then how would YOU know they ARE there, all the time, when nobody else thinks so?


You always claim something is really there, but cannot ever be seen, or measured, or identified, as ever BEING THERE - which means, you have no PROOF, and no EVIDENCE, at all - just BS.

It's really there, but nobody sees it, or measures it, that's your argument!

Stars and Saturn have always APPEARED to be in motion, right?

So when they claimed to see FEATURES of Saturn's 'atmosphere', and claimed to see these features have slowly ROTATED, once every 9.6 hours, we now know that is complete BS.

Making up any excuses for those liars, who were proven to be liars, who said Saturn looked to be motionless, yet was found to be a very slowly rotating 'planet', in 'fact'.

We all know they lied about Saturn, after seeing Saturn in constant, endless motion, why would you deny that fact, proves them as liars, and liars of today, that's why you make excuses for these liars, of course.

For centuries, nobody had seen Saturn, as they saw it, up close, and they always TOLD us what they had seen, of Saturn, up close, and all the stars, etc.

They were able to trick people about how to see stars, as points of light, through magnification.

But they didn't have any excuse for seeing Saturn is always in motion, after centuries of telling us it appeared to be motionless, when observed, yet then told us they'd seen features of Saturn's atmosphere, and saw over hours of observing it, that these features had moved position on Saturn, and they calculated this movement, since the atmosphere had features which WERE motionless, because they used them to calculate Saturn's speed of rotation, so accurately, way back then!

Thanks to seeing those 'features' of Saturn's motionless atmosphere, they were able to accurately calculate Saturn's speed of rotation, close to NASA's RECENT measurements of it, and were found to be very CLOSE to the 'real' speed of it's rotation!

Not any BS here, right? Dream on.
 

Whatever they really DID see, or did NOT see, when observing Saturn back then, will never be known for sure. It doesn't matter what they saw, or didn't see, all that matters is that they LIED about it to the world, and still lie about it to this day, claiming they were accurate in their calculation it's rotation speed, as being once every 9.6 hours.

Support BS with more BS, as usual.

We all know what 'seeing conditions' mean

Do you?
Because if you did, you wouldn't be spouting the crap you are.

When you are describing seeing through the atmosphere you are describing how well the atmosphere allows that light through undisturbed.
It is NOT the same as good or bad visibility.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomical_seeing

Saturn is ALWAYS seen in motion

No it isn't.
For terrestrial observations, it is always seen through an atmosphere, which is always turbulent and just a matter of how turbulent.
To claim that the atmosphere is not always turbulent is to claim that the atmosphere can be PERFECTLY still.

You've held up a 'heat haze', and claimed it is the same thing happening with stars, and with Saturn, when it's COMPLETELY different than how we see stars and Saturn, in every way possible.

You mean you continually lying, claiming it is completely different, but you can't explain why.
You again need to pretend the atmosphere can be perfectly still.
You appeal to objects, with a large angular size, seen through a relatively small mount of atmosphere having it possible for there to be no significant distortion.
You have NEVER demonstrated that it is possible to see such a small object, with such a small telescope/camera, with no turbulence.

We know who's got delusional fantasies here

Yes, YOU!
The one claiming the atmosphere can be perfectly still.
The one claiming something which is quite clearly an effect of the turbulent atmosphere is magically all stars and planets magically moving around in  magical ways, for no reason at all.
The one who needed to deny the existence of heat hazes to pretend their delusional crap could work.

The one who refuses to provide any justification for their claims.

The one who continually repeats the same crap again and again, while entirely ignoring what has been said. Without making any attempt to refute the counterarguments.

That's what you MUST show me

I do not need to show you anything.
The turbulence of the atmosphere is quite well know.
And even if it wasn't, the burden is still on YOU.
You are the one claiming it is actually the stars/Saturn/Jupiter/etc that is moving rather than the atmosphere.

The burden is entirely upon YOU to justify your insane claims.

I have provided examples of how you can, yet you refuse. I wonder why?

You always claim something is really there, but cannot ever be seen, or measured, or identified, as ever BEING THERE

No. I claim something is there, which is clearly seen to be there, which is measured, both subjectively and also objectively. Something which has been identified and measured countless times.
Something that you hate so you pretend it isn't real.

Stars and Saturn have always APPEARED to be in motion, right?

No. Just like a plane through a heat has doesn't appear to be in motion.
Intelligent people understand atmospheric turbulence and don't foolishly think that the object is in motion.

So when they claimed to see FEATURES of Saturn's 'atmosphere', and claimed to see these features have slowly ROTATED, once every 9.6 hours, we now know that is complete BS.

No, we don't.
That is your pathetic claim you are yet to justify.

We all know they lied about Saturn

Quite the opposite. We know you are here lying about it.

Whatever they really DID see, or did NOT see, when observing Saturn back then, will never be known for sure.

Yet here you are, even in that ignorance, happy to blatantly lie to everyone.

Support BS with more BS, as usual.

That does sum up you and other FEers quite well.

Using a new instrument, which came out in 2015, the Nikon Coolpix P900, a highly advanced camera, that took images, AND videos, much like other cameras did, of course, but they couldn't magnify up close enough on stars, being small, and distant, until today.

Poor Nikon.  What did they do to deserve their camera being weapon of choice for flat earthers?

The P900 is just a camera with a fairly powerful zoom for an all in one compact digital camera.  It’s zoom can be outperformed by any number of SLRs (digital or otherwise). with a sufficient telephoto lens, and is vastly, vastly outperformed by a half decent quality consumer grade telescope.

When you look at people’s silly YouTube videos of stars and planets taken with P900, you have no idea what digital processing is being used, such as low light compensation, image stabilization, video compression, etc.  There can be all sorts of artifacts created by inappropriate settings on a general use camera not designed for astrophotographery, on top of the atmospheric effects.

For the clearest view of stars and planets, stick your face up against an actual decent telescope.  Then it’s just light from the stars and planets going through the optics into your eyeball with no funny business.

I asked you...

Stars and Saturn have always APPEARED to be in motion, right?

And here's your reply...

No. Just like a plane through a heat has doesn't appear to be in motion.
Intelligent people understand atmospheric turbulence and don't foolishly think that the object is in motion.

So you can show me evidence of Saturn NOT appearing to be in motion, in an unedited video? I thought you had always seen Saturn appear to be in motion, same as everyone else has, so is that not true?

Once again, answer this simple question...

Saturn, from all you have seen of it, has always appeared to be in motion - YES or NO?

If no, then show me any proof to support that claim. Otherwise, stop the BS, and grow up.

The one claiming something which is quite clearly an effect of the turbulent atmosphere is magically all stars and planets magically moving around in  magical ways, for no reason at all.
The one who needed to deny the existence of heat hazes to pretend their delusional crap could work.

I certainly don't deny that heat hazes are CREATED into existence, which is true.

But they certainly DIE OUT of existence too, which YOU deny is true. You seem to believe that heat hazes are ALWAYS existing on Earth, throughout the Earth, even if there's absolutely no evidence of them existing all the time, all over Earth, but why would THAT matter, right?

What exactly ARE you claiming here? That all atmospheric effects are everywhere on Earth, but we rarely ever see them, or know they are there? In other words, you think there's a tiny, unseen tornado by your house, but has never come out before? How many fogs and heat hazes are hiding somewhere on Earth, undetected?

Do you know how ridiculous your argument is? It's loony-land!


Any effects of atmosphere, ALL effect of atmosphere, do NOT 'exist', as LIFE exists, as OBJECTS exist, as the AIR exists, which you call the atmosphere. Humans and plants and water and air and soil, among other things, DO exist, always HAVE existed, and are not CREATED into existence, for a time, and then VANISH out of existence!

There are OTHER things, that do NOT always exist on Earth, like people, rocks, the air, and mountains do. Such things are CREATED INTO EXISTENCE, by some means, then vanish OUT of existence. Steam coming up from a pot of water on your stove, did not exist until it was CREATED, and dissipates away OUT of existence, within air, afterwards.

Tornados, mirages, hurricanes, fogs, smog, etc. do not exist on Earth, until they are CREATED into existence, and then vanish out of existence, later on. 

It seems your desperation in defending these liars has reached the last stage. This 'eternal, omnipotent, underlying effects', that are never known to exist everywhere on Earth' argument....Ouch!

Atmospheric effects certainly DO exist, when they are CREATED into existence, but they do not exist in themselves, as entities, like people, rocks, air, and so on, which exist as entities on or above Earth themselves. So when you try to claim atmospheric effects exist, they are CREATED into existence, and then vanish OUT of existence, later on. They are always BEING created somewhere on Earth, and exist somewhere on Earth, in various places, but they always VANISH OUT of existence, later on, and that's what you don't get, or pretend you don't get, more likely.

All of your playing the idiot arguments are out of sheer desperation, and fear, I get that. Nobody likes to know it's all been a lie, from start to finish.

But we have to accept the truth, no matter how hard it may be for some to do.

I mean, if you can't even say that you've always seen Saturn appear to be in motion, which you certainly HAVE, this causes internal, psychological conflicts, knowing what is true, but never accepting it is true, or coming to terms with it being true.

Anger is the usual result, out of internal conflict, and to blame, and insult, those who said the truth, and call them liars.

Is it a lie, to say Saturn has always appeared to be in motion, whenever we've looked at it?  No,  it is the truth.

There is no point in you avoiding that truth, twisting it into something else, to avoid the truth, by calling ME a liar, which shows much more about YOUR character.

What should have been the main issue, is a valid debate on Saturn appearing to always be in motion, constant, endless motion, because it's the truth. 

Admitting to that truth, that Saturn has always appeared to be in constant, endless motion, should not become the main issue, it only AVOIDS the real issue. We all know the truth here, we have all seen Saturn always appearing to be in motion, so just admit to it, so we can all MOVE ALONG FROM THERE.

You won't admit it, even though you KNOW it is the truth, and unless you CAN admit to this truth, you have no argument at all. We must BOTH accept what is true, or it's worthless to go any further.

When these liars told us they had observed Saturn, through their telescopes, and saw some sort of 'dark spots' on it's....'atmosphere'. How could they know if Saturn had some sort of 'atmosphere', before they claimed to see those 'dark spots', is another problem, too.

How could they NOT be liars? Only one possible way - if they all saw Saturn, completely motionless, all the time, for centuries, but somehow, within the last 30-40 years, Saturn suddenly started to appear to be in constant, endless motion, as we all see it today!

Except it still wouldn't have worked, as all the rest of them, said the very same things, which mean THEY are also liars, and so is NASA, today, who claim the same things.

Once again, like every other claim they've made, it always goes back to the very FIRST claim they made, which spewed out more lies, that were based on the first, original claim, and so on, and on, and on, it has been, a massive pile of lies, which all go back to the first one.


In the case of Saturn, you've seen the truth, and nothing can save your story, after the chapter on Saturn they had written as the truth, was exposed as lies.

The greatest, most advanced telescopes, which they had, over 400 years ago, are completely, utterly obsolete, outdated, and VASTLY inferior instruments, that were replaced with SUPERIOR instruments, over and over and over again, in the last 400 years since then.

All this time, they just said the same lies, or new lies, based on these lies, and we all accepted what they told us about Saturn, appearing to be MOTIONLESS, until they found out, it was SLOWLY ROTATING, once every 9.6 hours.

So once again, they simply could NOT have seen this, because it always appears to be in motion, and that proves, they were, and still are, LIARS, and that's an absolute fact.

These people, who are very well paid, and given praise for such great 'discoveries' of things in 'space', much like the man who told the world he saw Saturn up close, and said it appeared to be motionless, but saw some 'features' of it's atmosphere, which they found were moving, slowly, and so on.

And they made up many reports about all this, of course. They created a chart, that listed the 'speed' of those 'dark spots', over periods of time, hourly, and it's position at those times, and they always have many reports, many lists, because when nobody else is allowed to - simply VIEW them, to actually CONFIRM their claims as true, or not true, any sort of 'documentation' they make of it, is regarded as 'evidence' of their claims being true!

That is how their entire story was built from, and still is.

Saturn was a very significant part of their story, at the time, and today, of course.

This wasn't done for laughs, or a joke, it was very important, and took a lot of time and effort to create, because it had to APPEAR as legitimate 'science' to the world, and to other scientists, who didn't know, just like us, the public didn't.

All of the evidence we have today, conclusively proves them as liars, by their false claims about Saturn appearing motionless, yet was slowly rotating once every 9.6 hours.

Even today, we cannot see actual 'features' of Saturn, or it's supposed 'atmosphere', and if WE can't see any sort of 'features', neither did they, 400 years ago, with about 1000 x less magnification that today. Not even close to what we have today, what a lousy excuse to claim they saw that, with their 'unique' instruments, which were scrapped as junk later on, because they had BETTER instruments which replaced them as outdated, inferior instruments.

They lied to support the ball Earth lie. When someone today, studies the subject of astronomy, they have no idea it is a sham, made of lies, of trickery, and built up on lies, and any who later realize it is all about lies, would not have a well paid job in astronomy, if they came out and said it was a sham, and would be mocked as a nut case. Same as those who become 'astronauts' do.

The whole thing starts to unravel with their lies about Saturn, and yet, most people have no idea they're all liars, others like you just make crappy excuses for those liars, in denial, or another agenda, or whatever, and God judges us all for what we've done on Earth, we choose our fate.

So you can show me evidence of Saturn NOT appearing to be in motion

No videos show the motion you are claiming, as any sane person recognises the effects of the atmosphere.

Again, how about you stop deflecting, and start providing evidence of your insane claim?

I certainly don't deny that heat hazes are CREATED into existence, which is true.

You have repeatedly implicitly claim that heat hazes do not exist, by claiming no effect of the atmosphere exists which could distort images like those seen.
Yet heat hazes do just that.

But they certainly DIE OUT of existence too

Do they? Or do they just diminish in effect?
Do you even understand the difference?

Again, you are claiming the atmosphere can be perfectly still.
Quite a bold claim, which you offer nothing to support.

What exactly ARE you claiming here?

Again, the issue isn't what I am claiming, the issue is what YOU are claiming, something you are claiming with no ability to back it up.

You are claiming it can't be the atmosphere, yet we routinely see the atmosphere doing quite similar things.
You have no justification for your claims at all.

As for how I am demonstrating your claim is BS, that is by the fact that the atmosphere is NEVER perfectly still, and that you are trying to view an object with a tiny angular size, through a very large amount of atmosphere.

You are yet to even come close to demonstrating that it is even possible for the atmosphere to be still enough to do that.

It seems your desperation in defending these liars has reached the last stage.

You mean your denial of reality?

Again, the only one demonstrated to be a liar here is you.

Just look at your desperation, spamming post after post after post of childish BS which has already been refuted.
All while refusing to even attempt to rationally justify your claim.

You have been told what kind of evidence you would need, and you refuse to provide it.

But we have to accept the truth, no matter how hard it may be for some to do.

Then why don't you stop with all this BS and accept the truth?
Why do you insist on repeatedly lying to everyone?

The greatest, most advanced telescopes, which they had, over 400 years ago, are completely, utterly obsolete, outdated, and VASTLY inferior instruments, that were replaced with SUPERIOR instruments, over and over and over again, in the last 400 years since then.

Yet rather than even attempt to use superior instruments, you instead choose to use a shitty camera, or a vastly inferior telescope in the middle of a city with all sorts of turbulence from the city.

Why?
Because you are not interested in the truth. You are interested in propping up your delusional fantasy.

because when nobody else is allowed to - simply VIEW them, to actually CONFIRM their claims as true

You sure do love repeating this lie don't you?
No one is stopping them.
That is just your fantasy.

They lied to support the ball Earth lie.

And this is where your garbage really dies.
Even if your delusional BS was true, it wouldn't magically make Earth flat.

You are just looking for pathetic excuses to pretend the RE must be a lie.
There was already mountains of evidence that Earth was round.
And other people were able to make telescopes and look, to verify what they say. It wasn't just one random person claiming it all.
Your garbage makes no sense.

When someone today, studies the subject of astronomy

They learn what seeing conditions are, and so they see straight through your delusional BS.

My essay PHILOSOPHICAL VISIBLE INFINITY, proves that the visible surface of the Earth is infinitely flat, and the visible Universe is not expanding and has never expanded, can be read at https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation.aspx...

My essay PHILOSOPHICAL VISIBLE INFINITY, proves that the visible surface of the Earth is infinitely flat, and the visible Universe is not expanding and has never expanded, can be read at

Well I'm glad you referred to it as an essay, as it certainly isn't an academic publication.

Just reading the abstract it is quite clearly nonsense.
Looking up at the sky doesn't tell us that there is not a large space between us and the star.
If anything, it tells us exactly that. That fact that we can move around without the star dramatically changing position shows it is far away. The fact that over the course of a year it doesn't change much just reinforces that.

It isn't even clear what your point is.

Nothing in it proves Earth is flat or hasn't expanded.
It is just a collection of empty claims.

My essay PHILOSOPHICAL VISIBLE INFINITY, proves that the visible surface of the Earth is infinitely flat, and the visible Universe is not expanding and has never expanded, can be read at https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation.aspx...

Hi Joe,

An ambitious essay topic to tackle. Visible, invisible, finite, and infinite. I'm not sure how you think you've proved the visible surface of Earth is infinitely flat? That there, could be a whole philosophical essay all on it's own.

First of all, I agree with your conclusion. However, your conclusion seems like it is the conclusion to a different essay?

Your conclusion needs to tie up all your points of your essay. You make a lot of interesting assertions throughout the essay, and your conclusion is your opportunity to neatly summarise them all, and show the reader what you have learned.

Secondly, you need to proof read your essay. The words "infinite" and "finite" are polar opposites, yet you have used them interchangeably throughout the essay, which is highly annoying. When I was reading it, it was clear where you were meaning "finite", yet insistently used the word "infinite".

I'm still unsure how you arrived at your point the universe is flat, and Earth is also flat? That seemed to come in from left field, and I don't see how it relates to the concepts of "infinite" and "finite"? Ask yourself, what does a flat universe or flat earth actually mean to you or the reader? I mean, we all clearly move around in three dimensional space, and flat implies two dimensional space.

I'd also like to see your reference for the idea you put forward that the only reason the earth looks round from outer space, is because our eyeballs are round and camera lenses are curved? You didn't just think that up yourself, surely, but if you did, I would expect you to say that, and to see a direct reference from another author or spokesperson backing you on that point.

On that last point, a strong essay is an essay which is clearly referenced, using direct quotes. I always preferred the Harvard method of referencing. You can produce an essay which is nothing but direct quotes, assembled together and organised to support your essay points, and it can be a very enjoyable read.

I hope you find this feedback on your essay, to be constructive. I'd be more than happy to help you re-write your essay, if that's what you're looking for?  Just PM me.

No videos show the motion you are claiming, as any sane person recognises the effects of the atmosphere.

You are claiming it can't be the atmosphere, yet we routinely see the atmosphere doing quite similar things.

So you really believe motionless objects, say a rock, or whatever, on the ground, seen in the distance, and magnified by instruments, often appears to be in motion, in constant, endless motion, but it's entirely caused by atmospheric effects? 

You're 'heat haze' example, of a distant truck, had some sort of TARP on top of it, which was FLAPPING around, due to the WINDS, it's not due to the HEAT HAZE, it is due to the WINDS hitting the tarp, on top of the truck!  Why do you think the TOP part of that truck is moving, and not the rest of it? If the motion was caused by an effect of atmosphere, the whole truck would appear to be moving to and fro, so would everything else within that area appear to be moving, if it was caused by some magical non-existent 'effect', because there ARE no such magical effects in the real world.

Show me where to find an endless, perpetually existing, non-stop 'heat haze', anywhere on Earth!  Is your 'truck' still in this 'heat haze', or did it die out, a few hours later on, or the next day, maybe?

You're the one who held up this 'heat haze' clip, said it was very similar to what we see of stars, but you never said it was a PERPETUAL, ENDLESS 'heat haze', which is always there, and always appears to be 'in motion', because you know it died out, right?

Unless you believe this 'heat haze' is still there, but you don't think that, right?

We know 'heat hazes', and mirages, fogs, etc. ARE ACTUAL EFFECTS OF ATMOSPHERE, and they ALWAYS die out, afterwards, and are constantly created again and again, over areas of Earth.  That's how we know they ARE effects of atmosphere, because normally, they are NOT present, or barely so, and when they DO appear, it is due to specific conditions at the time, within the area, making it hard to see distant objects, make things look blurry, smudged out, and so on.

Hurricanes and tornados, for example, are ALSO actual effects of atmosphere, like your heat haze is, obviously. You think there's an eternally existing hurricane on Earth, which never dies, never stops, and has always existed on Earth?  This 'eternally existing' effect, of yours, made up for your fairy tale story, doesn't exist, never has existed, never WILL exist, it is complete nonsense.

The only one claiming it is all due to atmospheric effects, is YOU.

I've said it is NOT due to any effects of our atmosphere, based on there being NO examples of it, ever found on Earth, or above Earth, or within it's waters, in all human history.

Effects are not eternal, ever-present, making the same objects appear to be in perpetual motion, since day one, to this very day, and forever afterwards, too!

So you really believe motionless objects, say a rock, or whatever, on the ground, seen in the distance, and magnified by instruments, often appears to be in motion, in constant, endless motion, but it's entirely caused by atmospheric effects?

I recognise the effect of the atmosphere, which means I recognise the object is not in motion and it is the atmosphere which is moving. The same applies here.

You're 'heat haze' example, of a distant truck, had some sort of TARP on top of it

I provided an example of a plane, with a solid metal skin.
Try again.

If the motion was caused by an effect of atmosphere, the whole truck would appear to be moving

You mean like how in these videos you cling to, everything appears to be moving?

Show me where to find an endless, perpetually existing, non-stop 'heat haze'

Show me where to find an area of Earth where the atmosphere is perfectly still, or at the very least has no turbulence at all.
Anywhere on Earth.
Show men where to find an area of Earth, where I can use a crappy camera, to look at an object through what equates to roughly 10 km of sea level atmosphere, where the objects angular size is roughly 0.005 degrees, where it can be seen to not be affected by the atmosphere.

As a comparison, that is equivalent to viewing a circle that is roughly 1 m in diameter (technically it should be less than that), from a distance of 10 km.

Compare that to your example of a truck (or a plane) viewed from no more than a few km, and is on the order of 10s of m long, where it has quite a large angular size.

The atmosphere is ALWAYS turbulent. It is just a matter of how significant the turbulence is, which relates to how small an object has to be before the turbulence affects it.

The only one claiming it is all due to atmospheric effects, is YOU.

And all the astronomers of the past, noting seeing conditions which is just a way of describing the effects of the atmosphere, and everyone else who sees through your BS.

I've said it is NOT due to any effects of our atmosphere

Based upon you desperately needing it to not be.
Yet you don't do the simple task of demonstrating the atmosphere could be that still to not cause distortions, nor do you attempt to obtain video from multiple locations at the same time demonstrating the same motion.

Instead, you appeal to the turbulence getting small enough to not affect a large, close by object; which in no way helps your claims.

But they certainly DIE OUT of existence too, which YOU deny is true.

How does an ever present atmosphere always in turbulence, cycling from heating and cooling, always laden with smoke, pollution, ash, dust, clouds, fog, moisture, ice crystals die out? 

The effects of our atmosphere, when they DO occur, at times, are found to be CLOSE to the surface, along the surface, and if you really believe they occur high ABOVE the surface of Earth, why did you hold up a 'heat haze' as an example, which occurs NEAR the surface, like all of them do, in fact.

If your claim was true, they wouldn't put telescopes on top of hills and mountains, it wouldn't make any difference to see stars that are 'trillions of miles away', from a point that's only ten thousand feet 'closer'!

The view of stars, from the Earth, is always better, clearer, and sharper, in equal conditions, at the same point, and time, if higher above sea level, or anywhere near to the surface of Earth, because the effects of atmosphere occur NEAR the surface of Earth, not high above the surface, and that's why they put telescopes on hill tops, and mountain peaks, to see stars as clear as possible from Earth.

There is obviously MUCH LESS air, or atmosphere, at higher altitudes ABOVE the Earth's surface, right? And that means, less EFFECTS of atmosphere occuring higher up, if at all, right?

When they said that the air, above Earth, we knew was thinner on a mountain, later on, found out is much better to fly planes at, with less air resistance to fly through, and put telescopes higher up, to see things clearer and sharper from Earth, are perfect examples that prove what I've said is the truth, in our actions, our measurements of the air above Earth, beyond a shred of doubt.   

You can't even find one valid example of it happening elsewhere....that's how ridiculous it is.

The effects of our atmosphere, when they DO occur, at times, are found to be CLOSE to the surface, along the surface, and if you really believe they occur high ABOVE the surface of Earth, why did you hold up a 'heat haze' as an example, which occurs NEAR the surface, like all of them do, in fact.

You sure do love your lies don't you?
They are most readily apparent close to the surface.

Do you know why?
Because you can easily see an object on the surface and walk up to it and see that it wasn't what it looked like.
But you can't fly.

Do you know a great example of this affect not near the surface?
Looking at the stars or the moon or planets or other celestial objects through the turbulent atmosphere. But you lie and pretend that is just the object magically moving in a manner to produce a visual observation consistent with a view through a turbulent atmosphere.

If your claim was true, they wouldn't put telescopes on top of hills and mountains, it wouldn't make any difference to see stars that are 'trillions of miles away', from a point that's only ten thousand feet 'closer'!

You sure do love your lies don't you?

Putting them on tops of hills and mountains reduces the amount of atmosphere it has to go through. This means the effect will be much less.
At 5000 m altitude, the air pressure is roughly half what it is at sea level. This means there is half the atmosphere to go through.

But do you know even better than that?
They send telescopes into space.
That way there is no atmosphere.
Telescopes like Hubble and Kepler and James Webb.

But more importantly, what crap are you using?
You are appealing to crappy videos taken from right down near sea level.

So all you are doing is showing your claims are pure BS.

If your delusional BS was true, then there would be no reason to go up to a higher altitude.

So rather than these telescopes proving you correct, they show your claim is BS.
They show you know that the atmosphere will distort the view of celestial objects.
They show you are knowingly lying to everyone.

So great job refuting yourself and exposing your own dishoensty.

Quote from: turbonium2 on June 23, 2023, 07:17:38 PM

The effects of our atmosphere, when they DO occur, at times, are found to be CLOSE to the surface, along the surface, and if you really believe they occur high ABOVE the surface of Earth, why did you hold up a 'heat haze' as an example, which occurs NEAR the surface, like all of them do, in fact.

You sure do love your lies don't you?
They are most readily apparent close to the surface.

Do you know why?
Because you can easily see an object on the surface and walk up to it and see that it wasn't what it looked like.
But you can't fly.

Do you know a great example of this affect not near the surface?
Looking at the stars or the moon or planets or other celestial objects through the turbulent atmosphere. But you lie and pretend that is just the object magically moving in a manner to produce a visual observation consistent with a view through a turbulent atmosphere.

They never, ever, once, said that stars, or Saturn, appeared to be in motion, looked as if it were in motion, which is EXACTLY how it always appears, no matter WHY or WHAT is the reason for it, doesn't matter. 

They didn't even mention it, THAT is the problem here!

How could they have ever seen some 'features' of Saturn, know these were 'features' of it's 'atmosphere'....it's a 'planet', like Earth, and has to have an 'atmosphere' like Earth does, so they saw these 'features' on Saturn's 'atmosphere'.

But unlike Earth's atmosphere, Saturn's is completely MOTIONLESS!

You need help, after you've seen Saturn always appears to be in motion, which they never, ever mentioned at all. How did they see 'features' on Saturn's magical motionless 'atmosphere', when it always appears to be in motion?  Are you serious?

They never, ever, once, said that stars, or Saturn, appeared to be in motion, looked as if it were in motion, which is EXACTLY how it always appears, no matter WHY or WHAT is the reason for it, doesn't matter.

No, it DOESN'T appear to be.
Any sane, intelligent person recognises the atmospheric turbulence, and so they report the seeing conditions.

And they DO mention the seeing conditions. You just choose to ignore it or pretend it means something entirely different, all so you can cling to your delusional fantasy.

But I notice that yet again, you spout a load of garbage, only to entirely ignore the refutation of that garbage and just to a different pile of garbage.
Stop jumping back and forth.

Pick one, and defend or admit it is garbage.

You need help

No, I don't. The one clearly in desperate need of help here is you.

Your previous post included you refuting yourself.
That is how much help you need. You need help to save yourself from yourself.

No, it DOESN'T appear to be.
Any sane, intelligent person recognises the atmospheric turbulence, and so they report the seeing conditions.

And they DO mention the seeing conditions. You just choose to ignore it or pretend it means something entirely different, all so you can cling to your delusional fantasy.

So you claim that Saturn appears MOTIONLESS, in all those videos?

If Saturn does NOT appear to be in motion, to you, that means you see it as motionless, it can only be one or the other, appear to be in motion, or appear motionless.

Is THAT what you're really seeing here? That's crazy, is it not?

Yikes!

If you really believe that they saw some sort of 'dark spots' on Saturn's 'atmosphere, over 300 years ago, using a long outdated, primitive instrument, with a fraction of our magnification, and saw these 'dark spots', slowly 'rotating' around, as well, and TIMED that 'rotation' of those 'dark spots', to be one rotation per every 9.6 hours, how could that ever be possible, when we have NEVER seen Saturn as they've claimed to see it, with far superior instruments than they had back then?

The fact is, Saturn always appears to be in motion.

And it's clearly proven that they were lying about what they claimed to see of Saturn, because we have now seen Saturn always appear to be in motion, and whether or not you think this is NOT motion we see, the fact is that THEY couldn't see 'dark spots' on it, slowly rotating once every 9.6 hours, because we know, from seeing Saturn, that this is complete BS.

When you already know that we cannot see such 'features' of Saturn, or any supposed 'atmosphere' they claimed to be over Saturn, and saw 'dark spots' on it, which they saw were slowly moving, or rotating once every 9.6 hours, those claims need to be CONFIRMED as being true, or not true, valid or not valid, feasible or impossible.

We know those claims were not true, not valid, and completely impossible, and are outright lies, made up and told as being true!

Unless you can ever find a video of Saturn appearing motionless, and we can see some sort of actual 'features' of it, and see that these 'features' are slowly 'rotating' at such a rate as they claimed, there's no debate about them being lies, from a pack of liars, and they are still liars today. Deal with it, no more excuses.

So you claim that Saturn appears MOTIONLESS, in all those videos?

No. The motion in it is quite slow. To slow to be seen in that video, and the distortions of the atmosphere makes it harder.
What you falsely claim is apparent motion is quite clearly the atmosphere.

If Saturn does NOT appear to be in motion, to you, that means you see it as motionless, it can only be one or the other, appear to be in motion, or appear motionless.

So after lies you resort to false dichotomies?
Look at Saturn when it is entirely unresolved, so it just appears as a blur. Does it appear motionless or in motion?
The honest answer is that you have no idea.

Likewise, if you watch the hour hand on a clock for 10 seconds, does it appear motionless?
Again, the honest answer is you cannot see it moving, but that doesn't mean you see it as being perfectly motionless.

If you really believe that they saw some sort of 'dark spots' on Saturn's 'atmosphere, over 300 years ago, using a long outdated, primitive instrument, with a fraction of our magnification

How many times are you going to cling to this crap?
Compared to the instruments you are appealing to, their instruments were neither primitive nor outdated.

Magnification is useless without resolution and a calm atmosphere.

how could that ever be possible, when we have NEVER seen Saturn as they've claimed to see it, with far superior instruments than they had back then?

Stop lying.
You are appealing to vastly inferior instruments, like a crappy camera rather than a telescope, and quite small telescopes, in the middle of a city.

Try it with a large telescope, comparable in size to the telescopes they used, out away from the city.

The fact is, Saturn always appears to be in motion.

Pure BS.
It is quite clearly an affect of the atmosphere.
You not liking that fact doesn't change it.

If you wish to disagree, then prove it is even possible to view such a small angular size object, through so much atmosphere, near a city.

We know those claims were not true, not valid, and completely impossible, and are outright lies, made up and told as being true!

No, we know you are desperately lying about them to prop up your delusional fantasy.

So you have no videos of Saturn that show it motionless, where we can see 'features' of it, or on it's supposed 'atmosphere', which THEY claimed to see?

Obviously there IS no such videos of Saturn, which support their claims as valid, in any way at all.

Their claims were made over 300 years ago, using antique, outdated telescopes, which don't even come CLOSE to ours of today, so why are you trying to take excuses for these liars, makes no sense at all. To defend these proven liars won't benefit you in the end.

So you have no videos of Saturn

So you have no videos of Saturn shot from multiple locations at the same time, showing the same motion.

Obviously there IS no such videos of Saturn, which support your delusional BS at all.

Likewise, you have no videos of a 1 m wide object shot from 10 km away through the sea level atmosphere.

Their claims were made over 300 years ago, using antique, outdated telescopes, which don't even come CLOSE to ours of today

Repeating the same lies wont help you.
Their telescopes were superior to what you are trying to use.

To defend these proven liars won't benefit you in the end.

The only proven liar here is you.

So you have no videos of Saturn shot from multiple locations at the same time, showing the same motion.

So you just admitted Saturn IS in motion, or that it certainly APPEARS to be in motion, by asking me to show that Saturn is seen to be in the SAME motion, in videos shot from different points on Earth, when they're taken at the same time!!

Whether or not Saturn ITSELF is in motion, or that it's due to any sort of effect(s), etc. has nothing to DO with this issue, as I've told you many times already!

The fact is, Saturn always APPEARS to be in motion, that's the point here! Not what CAUSES the motion, or does NOT cause the motion, but that it DOES appear to be in constant, endless motion, PERIOD.

So when they claimed to see 'dark spots' on Saturn's atmosphere, and claimed those 'dark spots' were seen to have slowly 'rotated' around, and claimed to TIME this slow rotation, to be once every 9.6 hours, with RECORDS taken of it, but NEVER allowed others to confirm, or validate their claims, by looking through their telescopes, that's BS right there, and is NOT how science works, when it is a REAL science, that follows the scientific methods, where claims ALWAYS have to be confirmed, and validated, by others, independent and not connected in any way to those who make the claims! 

All of their claims about Saturn, and all others, were NEVER confirmed or validated by others, even today, over 400 years later! 

So now, centuries later on, we've finally been able to see Saturn close up, appearing to always be in motion, and whether or not THEY saw this, or didn't, and made it all up, there's no difference, they were liars, who've finally been CAUGHT as liars, that's the whole point here!

Trying to excuse them with some BS about how they mentioned 'bad seeing conditions', or whatever, is nonsense.

We know they could NOT see 'features', or 'dark spots', on Saturn, or on a supposed 'atmosphere' of Saturn, and saw it 'slowly rotate once every 9.6 hours', this is utter BS, proven by the fact we've NEVER seen 'features', or 'dark spots', on Saturn, or 'atmosphere' claimed to be seen, and we've CERTAINLY never seen Saturn appearing MOTIONLESS, or slowly 'rotating', ever, and there's no way THEY ever did, either!


How could you ever believe their claims, after knowing and seeing Saturn always appear to be in motion, whatever you think CAUSES that motion?

No objects always appear to be in motion, constant and perpetual motion, from any effects of atmosphere, you've just made it all up, said it was 'known to be an effect of atmosphere', yet somehow, called it 'bad seeing conditions', instead! 

But even THAT ridiculous excuse doesn't work, because Saturn ALWAYS appears to be in motion, REGARDLESS of the 'seeing conditions'! 

You've simply got no excuses for your liars, we both know that, admit it or keep in denial of it, that's your choice, it doesn't change the fact they were, and still are, nothing but a rotten bunch of liars.

So you just admitted Saturn IS in motion

No. I have told you what you need to provide to show it is in motion.

Whether or not Saturn ITSELF is in motion, or that it's due to any sort of effect(s), etc. has nothing to DO with this issue, as I've told you many times already!

It has everything to do with the issue.
Intelligent people recognise the distortion of the atmosphere and don't claim the object viewed through the turbulent atmosphere is in motion.
Instead, they would describe the seeing conditions.

with RECORDS taken of it, but NEVER allowed others to confirm, or validate their claims, by looking through their telescopes, that's BS right there, and is NOT how science works, when it is a REAL science, that follows the scientific methods

That's right. What you are describing is not science, it is your delusional fantasy.
That is also NOTHING like what has actually happened.

Stop just repeating the same pathetic lies.

So now, centuries later on, we've finally been able to see Saturn close up

Again, stop repeating the same pathetic lies.
The crap you are appealing to is NOT close up.

The footage close up is from probes from NASA, which don't show any of the delusional BS you are claiming.

All you are doing is repeatedly proving how dishonest you are.
The only liar getting caught is YOU!

Trying to excuse them with some BS about how they mentioned 'bad seeing conditions', or whatever, is nonsense.

You mean trying to be honest, and accurately and honestly representing what they have said to expose your pathetic lies?
The only reason you want to dismiss it as nonsense is so you can pretend your delusional fantasy is true.

We know they could NOT see 'features', or 'dark spots', on Saturn, or on a supposed 'atmosphere' of Saturn, and saw it 'slowly rotate once every 9.6 hours', this is utter BS

Your claim is utter BS.
You have no proof at all.

You don't even have footage from a comparable telescope in comparable conditions.

No objects always appear to be in motion, constant and perpetual motion, from any effects of atmosphere

Again, care to get a video of a 1 m wide object from 10 km away? Show it isn't affected by the atmosphere?

But even THAT ridiculous excuse doesn't work, because Saturn ALWAYS appears to be in motion, REGARDLESS of the 'seeing conditions'!

You mean that honest representation of the facts does work, because your delusional BS doesn't.
The effects of the atmosphere vary over time, at times causing more distortion than at other times.

Now again, care to provide any evidence for your delusional BS? Or are you only capable of repeating the same pathetic refuted claims?

It has everything to do with the issue.
Intelligent people recognise the distortion of the atmosphere and don't claim the object viewed through the turbulent atmosphere is in motion.
Instead, they would describe the seeing conditions.

Your claim is utter BS.
You have no proof at all.

You don't even have footage from a comparable telescope in comparable conditions.

They told us lies about Saturn, never allowing others to confirm their claims as true or false, never allowing us to see through their telescopes, and they've finally been caught in their lies, it's that simple.

It's not just that their claims were never validated or confirmed by others, that is bad enough. But when we SEE that Saturn ALWAYS appears to be in motion, we know that their claims were all made up, lies, they told us as being true.

How would they ever see some sort of 'dark spots', and saw them 'slowly rotating once every 9.6 hours'?  That's a joke!  Saturn always appears to be in motion, how the hell did they possibly see such crap, come on, use your brain for once, it's utter BS.

They told us lies about Saturn, never allowing others to confirm their claims as true or false, never allowing us to see through their telescopes, and they've finally been caught in their lies, it's that simple.

No. YOU have told us lies.
They are under no obligation to allow everyone to come use their telescope to confirm their discoveries.
Instead, other astronomers did.
And no one was prevented from confirming their claims.

The only person repeatedly lying here is you.

Again, where is ANY proof that Saturn is magically moving?

Where is your comparable footage of Saturn from a telescope comparable to what they had, in conditions comparable to what they had?

No where.

They are under no obligation to allow everyone to come use their telescope to confirm their discoveries.
Instead, other astronomers did.
And no one was prevented from confirming their claims.

The only person repeatedly lying here is you.

Again, where is ANY proof that Saturn is magically moving?

Where is your comparable footage of Saturn from a telescope comparable to what they had, in conditions comparable to what they had?

No where.

Let's try another approach, maybe you'll get what I'm saying, though I doubt that's the problem here.

You're saying that you believe their claims are all true, and not lies, not made up, whatsoever.....is this your position on this?

You haven't even tried to explain why you would believe their claims are true, how they could POSSIBLY have seen 'features', seen 'dark spots' on Saturn's 'atmosphere', seen them rotate very, very slowly, and time their rotation to be once every 9.6 hours, so I'd really like your answer for all that, if you have one, that is, because if you cannot account for their claims, as being true, or at least VALID, this is all over, so what shall it be?

Every time I've pointed out that you have no proof, hide the evidence from all of us, make all sorts of claims, which have no proof, and never allowed to be confirmed by others, and then, even after we have SEEN their claims were falsehoods, and lies, beyond any reasonable doubt, you make up MORE idiotic excuses for it all.

I'd like you to explain how they even COULD have seen such 'dark spots', and seen them rotate slowly, once every 9.6 hours, based on all of OUR evidence, found on all videos of Saturn, since that is the only VALID, genuine evidence we have. 

NASA's 'space probes' are NOT evidence, they are ALSO unproven claims, nobody has ever confirmed as true or false, just like the claims of Saturn, are unproven, and never confirmed at all.

Piling up more unproven claims, to support other unproven claims, is how your fairy tale story was BUILT upon, and it cannot work for you, either.

But go ahead, explain how you arrived at such a conclusion, that they saw what they claimed to see of Saturn, while everyone on Earth today, has NEVER seen such things at all, because I can't wait to hear it....

I presume that you'll say you believe their claims are not PROVEN as lies, or proven to NOT be true, and that they had different instruments back then, as if instruments back then could magically SEE 'dark spots' on Saturn's 'atmosphere', and whenever they looked THROUGH those instruments, Saturn usually appeared motionless, although they saw it slowly rotate, and managed to 'accurately time it's rotation'....

Go ahead, then...

Let's try another approach, maybe you'll get what I'm saying, though I doubt that's the problem here.

How about you try an honest approach rather than just going for dishonest BS after dishonest BS?

You're saying that you believe their claims are all true, and not lies, not made up, whatsoever.....is this your position on this?

Correct. Conversely you are CLAIMING (notice, I am accepting the claims of others, while you are making positive claims) that they are lying.
Yet you cannot offer any evidence that they were.

Every time I've pointed out that you have no proof

You are being incredibly dishonest.
If you were being honest, you would stop demanding others disprove your delusional BS and instead try to prove your delusional BS.

But that would be impossible, so you continue to be dishonest.

I'd like you to explain

And I'd like you to stop trying to shift the burden of proof, and start defending your claims, or admitting you can't.

Piling up more unproven claims, to support other unproven claims

You mean providing more evidence to show you are wrong, which you dismiss as fake or as an unproven claim, as you do with all evidence that shows you are wrong.
Anytime evidence that shows you are wrong is presented, it is magically not evidence.

But then evidence you think can support you comes along and magically it is.

Again, I asked you to explain why you believe they saw 'dark spots', and saw them slowly rotate, and somehow TIMED this rotation to be once every 9.6 hours.

That IS what you believe they DID, right?

So then, explain how this was ever possible, to believe their claims are true.....

Can you explain how this was possible, or not?