Prince of Peace!!!

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AbdulAziz

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Prince of Peace!!!
« on: February 03, 2010, 11:22:21 PM »
I always hear people claim that Jesus is a prince of peace and all, well I as a Muslim have no doubt about Jesus peace be upon him being Prince of Peace However I wonder what makes the Christians think so!? and why they are claiming Jesus Prince of Peace if what we find in the Bible Jesus saying "If any man come to me, and HATE NOT his father, and mother, and wife, and children. . . HE CANNOT be my disciple." LUKE 14:26

Is there any explanation for what he said and the reason he said!

If the above sentence cannot be explained but as it seems than should we we say hate is the foundation of Jesus' Faith!?

I would like to ask people when we should credit someone for forgiving! Most of us claim we forgive but what is the greatest forgiveness!
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

Re: Prince of Peace!!!
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2010, 11:30:51 PM »

If the above sentence cannot be explained but as it seems than should we we say hate is the foundation of Jesus' Faith!?


You have got to be a troll lolol
"So now we know. Pigs are horses. Girls are boys. War is peace." -Arundhati Roy

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Mr Pseudonym

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Re: Prince of Peace!!!
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2010, 11:42:27 PM »
I always hear people claim that Jesus is a prince of peace and all, well I as a Muslim have no doubt about Jesus peace be upon him being Prince of Peace However I wonder what makes the Christians think so!? and why they are claiming Jesus Prince of Peace if what we find in the Bible Jesus saying "If any man come to me, and HATE NOT his father, and mother, and wife, and children. . . HE CANNOT be my disciple." LUKE 14:26

Is there any explanation for what he said and the reason he said!

If the above sentence cannot be explained but as it seems than should we we say hate is the foundation of Jesus' Faith!?

I would like to ask people when we should credit someone for forgiving! Most of us claim we forgive but what is the greatest forgiveness!


You know, I have a tea towel in that exact same pattern and colour.  Do you shop at Target?
Why do we fall back to earth? Because our weight pushes us down, no laws, no gravity pulling us. It is the law of intelligence.

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ERTW

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Re: Prince of Peace!!!
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2010, 12:50:00 AM »
What translation are you reading from?

From the New Living Translation 1998:
Luke 14:26
"If you want to be my follower you must love me more than your own father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters-yes, more than your own life. Otherwise you cannot be my disciple."

Followed by verse 27:
"And you cannot be my disciple if you do not carry your own cross and follow me."

Jesus is not telling people to carry around crosses, he is trying to explain salvation.
Don't diss physics until you try it!

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Mykael

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Re: Prince of Peace!!!
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2010, 01:12:40 AM »
In before Babsinva vs Abdul epic showdown.

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Prince of Peace!!!
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2010, 01:48:50 AM »
What translation are you reading from?

From the New Living Translation 1998:
Luke 14:26
"If you want to be my follower you must love me more than your own father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters-yes, more than your own life. Otherwise you cannot be my disciple."

Followed by verse 27:
"And you cannot be my disciple if you do not carry your own cross and follow me."

Jesus is not telling people to carry around crosses, he is trying to explain salvation.

I am reading The NKJV :)

"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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Eddy Baby

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Re: Prince of Peace!!!
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2010, 08:12:35 AM »
In before Babsinva vs Abdul epic showdown.

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Prince of Peace!!!
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2010, 09:49:28 AM »
In before Babsinva vs Abdul epic showdown.

Hey, it could be worse.  Like, CR90-worse.  It reminds me of the time that KingMan and Abdul clashed.  The heavens roared, the Earth shook, and the Internet asploded.

@OP: I imagine, like ERTW said, that the idea wasn't so much that you had to hate your family, just that you had to love Jesus more.  You know, kind of like you guys and the Prophet (peace be upon him).

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Prince of Peace!!!
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2010, 10:09:57 AM »
Quote
@OP: I imagine, like ERTW said, that the idea wasn't so much that you had to hate your family, just that you had to love Jesus more.  You know, kind of like you guys and the Prophet (peace be upon him).

If he wanted us to love him more than our family there was no need for the word "Hate" he could easily say you should love me more than your own family or your own self.

The sad part is that people who consider Jesus a God or son of God and yet they are happy with such insult and we Muslim consider Jesus to be only a "Human" yet we can never accept Jesus saying such a thing!

"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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ERTW

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Re: Prince of Peace!!!
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2010, 10:47:56 AM »
Quote
@OP: I imagine, like ERTW said, that the idea wasn't so much that you had to hate your family, just that you had to love Jesus more.  You know, kind of like you guys and the Prophet (peace be upon him).

If he wanted us to love him more than our family there was no need for the word "Hate" he could easily say you should love me more than your own family or your own self.

The sad part is that people who consider Jesus a God or son of God and yet they are happy with such insult and we Muslim consider Jesus to be only a "Human" yet we can never accept Jesus saying such a thing!

The word 'hate' may appear in the NKJV, but have you read the original text, or explored the cultural context? In the Bible Jesus commonly spoke in analogies and metaphors. It is kind of like this forum, he may having been speaking to a crowd that was just not getting the idea into their heads, so he had to resort to an extreme example to make them realize how important letting go of earthly things is.
You say there was no need for him to use the word hate, but how do you know? You weren't there living in that culture, nor do you know the exact Greek or Hebrew word that he actually used.
Don't diss physics until you try it!

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Ocius

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Re: Prince of Peace!!!
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2010, 11:47:20 AM »

Re: Prince of Peace!!!
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2010, 05:34:57 PM »
In before Abdul types an awful simile.
"So now we know. Pigs are horses. Girls are boys. War is peace." -Arundhati Roy

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AbdulAziz

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Re: Prince of Peace!!!
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2010, 12:06:56 PM »
Quote
The word 'hate' may appear in the NKJV, but have you read the original text, or explored the cultural context? In the Bible Jesus commonly spoke in analogies and metaphors. It is kind of like this forum, he may having been speaking to a crowd that was just not getting the idea into their heads, so he had to resort to an extreme example to make them realize how important letting go of earthly things is.
You say there was no need for him to use the word hate, but how do you know? You weren't there living in that culture, nor do you know the exact Greek or Hebrew word that he actually used.

If your Christian please stop insulting your son of God or your own God :)

If you are Muslim you should know God is not going to select a Messenger who has to use such extreme example :)

If your not any of the above you should know there are far better ways to teach them using different methods and better example :)

Further more the "THE PRINCE OF PEACE" boasts that he had not come to bring peace on earth but fire and division! Isn't that what we find in the Bible "I came to set the earth on fire, and how I wish that it were ALREADY KINDLED. ' Do you supposed that I came to bring peace to the world? No, not peace BUT DIVISION." I LUKE 12:49

The same Prince who should be a perfect example for Human being, he calls his own mother: "Woman" :) maybe it's considered a good manners among cattle :)
"And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

"Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
(Translations of Allah's Words)

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babsinva

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« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 11:05:57 PM by babsinva »
Quote from Big Giant Head:  "Considered fictitious or phantom does not quantify its non-existence."

Quote from Soze:  "We cannot escape perception, but we can't assume reality doesn't exist outside of perception."

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parsec

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Re: Prince of Peace!!!
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2010, 03:20:14 AM »
I always hear people claim that Jesus is a prince of peace and all, well I as a Muslim have no doubt about Jesus peace be upon him being Prince of Peace However I wonder what makes the Christians think so!?
Christians don't think he is Prince of peace. Christians believe He is the only Son of God, Savior of mankind. Look up John 3:16.

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ERTW

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Re: Prince of Peace!!!
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2010, 04:41:40 PM »
Quote
The word 'hate' may appear in the NKJV, but have you read the original text, or explored the cultural context? In the Bible Jesus commonly spoke in analogies and metaphors. It is kind of like this forum, he may having been speaking to a crowd that was just not getting the idea into their heads, so he had to resort to an extreme example to make them realize how important letting go of earthly things is.
You say there was no need for him to use the word hate, but how do you know? You weren't there living in that culture, nor do you know the exact Greek or Hebrew word that he actually used.

If your Christian please stop insulting your son of God or your own God :)

If you are Muslim you should know God is not going to select a Messenger who has to use such extreme example :)

If your not any of the above you should know there are far better ways to teach them using different methods and better example :)

Further more the "THE PRINCE OF PEACE" boasts that he had not come to bring peace on earth but fire and division! Isn't that what we find in the Bible "I came to set the earth on fire, and how I wish that it were ALREADY KINDLED. ' Do you supposed that I came to bring peace to the world? No, not peace BUT DIVISION." I LUKE 12:49

The same Prince who should be a perfect example for Human being, he calls his own mother: "Woman" :) maybe it's considered a good manners among cattle :)

You are hilarious. You think that him calling his mother "Woman", which would be very offensive today but very normal 2000 years ago, makes Jesus some kind of jerk?

I am not insulting Jesus by suggesting that you are misinterpreting and twisting his words.

Quote
If you are Muslim you should know God is not going to select a Messenger who has to use such extreme example :)
What makes you think you set the standard for the way a messenger from God should communicate?
Don't diss physics until you try it!

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babsinva

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Re: Prince of Peace!!!
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2010, 04:56:35 PM »
    To Parsec, Abdul & others ...

    I always hear people claim that Jesus is a prince of peace and all, well I as a Muslim have no doubt about Jesus peace be upon him being Prince of Peace However I wonder what makes the Christians think so!?

    Christians don't think he is Prince of peace. Christians believe He is the only Son of God, Savior of mankind. Look up John 3:16.

    Actually Jesus (for Christians) has several titles, characteristics, and words to describe him such as:

    • "only-begotten Son"      is how John 3:16 is phrased - (John -Gospel not letters of John)
    • "The Word" -                John 1:14 among other places
    • "Mighty god" -              lowercase "g" and not ALmighty God. - Isaiah & others
    • "Son of man" -             John 1:51; 3:14 &15
    • "Chief Agent of life" -    Acts 3:15
    • "the way, the truth and the life" John 14:6
    • "a lamp"                      (figuratively or metaphorically) to light the way
    • a "bright morning star" - Rev 22:16
    • "the Lamb" -                 Revelation (not one in Isaiah - has a different meaning)
    • "Wonderful Counselor" - Isaiah 9:6
    • "Immanuel" -                (some translations say Emmanuel) Matthew 1:23
    • "Messiah" - several places - Daniel and John
    • "Prince of Peace" -         the title NOT in Luke but elsewhere, & also Luke out of context partially
    • archangel Michael -       in several scriptures - Jude is the best one
    • "King of the Jews" -       NOT name he called Himself nor by followers, but by those who killed

    Will respond another time to Abdul and others on the posts as they relate to "hate" and further on "Prince of Peace."  Wanted to stop now, because I have a tendancy to go on, and on. - LOL guys!  So I'll be briefer than normal and quit here for now.  I am trying.[/list]
    « Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 05:09:53 PM by babsinva »
    Quote from Big Giant Head:  "Considered fictitious or phantom does not quantify its non-existence."

    Quote from Soze:  "We cannot escape perception, but we can't assume reality doesn't exist outside of perception."

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    AbdulAziz

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    Re: Prince of Peace!!!
    « Reply #17 on: February 07, 2010, 12:40:33 AM »
    Quote
    I am not insulting Jesus by suggesting that you are misinterpreting and twisting his words.

    I have no reason to misinterpret Jesus in fact I don't have the right, because we Muslims believe he is one of the mightiest Messengers of Allah and who ever do something like that shouldn't be considered a Muslim :) What I am saying is that we can't accept a normal human and average minded person to say such things then how we can allow someone as great as Jesus say it... In fact no one respect Jesus peace be upon him as much as the Muslims.

    ---

    Babsinva:
    Thanks alot, I will be waiting for your reply, for you are someone who at least did read the Bible and have knowledge about the religion :)
    "And say, `All praise belongs to ALLAH; HE will soon show you HIS Signs, and you will know them.' And thy Lord is not unaware of what you do."

    "Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? "
    (Translations of Allah's Words)

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    babsinva

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    Re: Prince of Peace!!!
    « Reply #18 on: February 07, 2010, 05:28:07 AM »
    Babsinva:
    Thanks alot, I will be waiting for your reply, for you are someone who at least did read the Bible and have knowledge about the religion :)

    While I appreciate your confidence in me, I do NOT want this to be a    babsinva /Abdul Aziz   thread only.  I do not want to discourage others, and run them off.  It sounds like from your last post above, that you do not want to hear from others at all.  Everyone is welcome.


    Further more the "THE PRINCE OF PEACE" boasts that he had not come to bring peace on earth but fire and division! Isn't that what we find in the Bible "I came to set the earth on fire, and how I wish that it were ALREADY KINDLED. ' Do you supposed that I came to bring peace to the world? No, not peace BUT DIVISION." I LUKE 12:49

    The scripture about the sword is in more than one place, but in reference to this statement the best ones are in Luke 12:49-53 which talks about not bringing peace but bringing division.  It is also mentioned and more detailed in the account of Matthew 10:32-39.  I will summarize but you should read the whole thing for complete understanding. 

    Basically in Matthew,  (Jesus speaking) and saying everyone that is in union with me, will be in union with my Father, for I will confess to him your union, but should you disown me, then I will disown you.  Then it goes on to say divisions can be against mother, brother sister, father and members of ones' household, but if it is for the sake of My Father's name then it's OK, because you have shown that He is more important than men, and if not, you are not worthy of Him anyhow.  In other words choose.  That's the division with the sword - not some conquistador going to battle.  The blade in other words can cut like a knife - and you can choose not to be separated from family, friends, neighbors and the like and choose to be with them or accepted by them, because that is more important to you, but then that divides you from GOD.  However if your family, friends, and neighbors do something that you know God doesn't want and you walk away from it because you are strong enough, and do not have to be a follower of men, then your division may be with them, but at least it won't be with God.  Basic terms - if your best friend jumps off a bridge are you going to jump off too?  No.  Have sense, be strong, do what's right.  Who cares whether you are liked by men.  And once there is that division among you and men, they may persecute you for no reason, just because you've made changes and they don't feel you are fun or cool to hang out with or visit anymore.  So what - who cares what men think. 

    In Luke it talks about the division again, and in basic straight forward terms it's saying a divided house can not stand.  So if his sword creates a division in your house, then so be it.  If I have to choose between God and my mother for example, then I'll choose God.  I will not for example, practice idolatry like my mother does, and if that puts a rift between us, that's fine, for one can not slave for 2 masters says the bible.  It is better to be in favor with God, than to be liked by others.  This is the division that is talked about - plain and simple.

    And B-T-W the reference to sword in Revelation is not the same sword talked about here.

    An do not forget the bible says be peaceable with all men.
    Quote from Big Giant Head:  "Considered fictitious or phantom does not quantify its non-existence."

    Quote from Soze:  "We cannot escape perception, but we can't assume reality doesn't exist outside of perception."

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    ERTW

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    Re: Prince of Peace!!!
    « Reply #19 on: February 07, 2010, 02:03:35 PM »
    Quote
    I am not insulting Jesus by suggesting that you are misinterpreting and twisting his words.

    I have no reason to misinterpret Jesus in fact I don't have the right, because we Muslims believe he is one of the mightiest Messengers of Allah and who ever do something like that shouldn't be considered a Muslim :) What I am saying is that we can't accept a normal human and average minded person to say such things then how we can allow someone as great as Jesus say it... In fact no one respect Jesus peace be upon him as much as the Muslims.

    ---

    Babsinva:
    Thanks alot, I will be waiting for your reply, for you are someone who at least did read the Bible and have knowledge about the religion :)

    The only reason I can see for you to push this point is that you are trying to discredit the New Testament. You seem to be saying that Jesus' words as recorded in the New Testament portray him as a mean imperfect angry man, hence it must be a flawed recording.

    Your attempt to take Jesus' words out of context in these passages reveals your intentions. However to respond directly to your statement about what a normal person would say:
    If I call my mother "Woman" when we are hanging out in the kitchen she will probably laugh. If I say the same thing when we are with her friends having dinner she will be offended. Context is important to how words are interpreted and what they mean.

    In the context of trying to explain a concept like salvation to a large crowd, Jesus uses an analogy. Any analogy he uses will be in some way imperfect, or possible to misinterpret, but that is the nature of human language (which is inherently imperfect). Jesus, being the Son of God, could directly communicate his ideas to our minds in a perfect way that we will understand it. However, his point being on earth is to relate to us on our level for the purposes of our salvation.
    « Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 08:30:47 PM by ERTW »
    Don't diss physics until you try it!