What would change your mind?

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1050 on: October 26, 2020, 06:04:44 PM »
Mate, there are many conspiracies one can get caught up in, but the flat earth one, to me, is the ultimate dangerous one if you're serious. But, if you like just upsetting people, you've done a great job.
If you get upset then you maybe shouldn't be taking me on in any way shape or form.


Quote from: Smoke Machine
Flat earth, is the ultimate in reality denial and authority denial. If you are serious, then it screams that you have unaddressed issues which you can't face. You are escaping reality by denying it. If I met you in person, (and you were serious) I would convince you to seek the help from either a psychologist or psychiatrist.
You are free to try and convince me of anything you wish. but here's the key.

“Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
 
Quote from: Smoke Machine
The fact you are here debating, (if you're serious) is a scream for help, but you aren't taking the help.
The fact that you're going to pains of trying to tell me all this, tells me it's you that appears to require the help.

Lol!  ;D Don't flatter yourself. You could never ever upset me. I was referring to others on this thread.

You asked for honesty, so I gave you honesty.  I know of hippie communities not that far from where I live, where the predominant thinking is conspiracies and many believe the earth is flat.

They are people with such a deep distrust towards science, government, and authority, that they are accountable to nothing and nobody but themselves. As a result, many are useless to society.
They are broken. Most are unemployable pisswrecks and drug addicts. Many are in dire need of psychological help.

And how do you help people who suffer from paranoid delusions like this?  You can't reach them with evidence or reason so that they can help themselves, and they mistrust the system so thoroughly that they actively scorn the professionals that could really help them. 

I'm definitely guilty at poking fun at the world Sceptimatic believes he lives in, but when I pull back and think about it more, I sometimes find it actually more than a little sad.

This thread demonstrates that evidence and reason can't reach people like this. It's utterly useless. People always choose to run away from reality for a reason. Probably because reality is too painful to face.

We tend to forget that this trivial topic, hides a highly dangerous condition. They effectively exclude themselves from the rest of the educated human race, living in a constant state of paranoia that everything is a lie. Naturally that lie would include covid-19 for example.

The best you can do is be honest with them or maybe discussing other topics us the key to fostering good communication and repore with them. They are people who lack trust.

If you look, lack of trust is a recurring theme in all of sceptimatic's posts.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 06:17:37 PM by Smoke Machine »

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rvlvr

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1051 on: October 26, 2020, 10:14:23 PM »
I say it is more about hubris, and the need to feel to better than others.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1052 on: October 26, 2020, 11:48:55 PM »


See, that's just weird. Why would you automatically assume someone is trying to "cheat"? I actually know the guy who did the tubes of fluid above Malibu experiment in the last photo. A friend of mine. He's no cheater. He exhaustively set up and executed his experiment in the most honest way imaginable.   .............................. (massive appeal to so called authority or I'm calling you out.) And I'm disappointed in you...........................
Just because something doesn't conform to your way of thinking you automatically think its a scam? You could easily replicate the experiment yourself.

I mean you're basically calling my friend a liar with no basis for doing so. Why?
I have every basis for doing so because I know with 100% honesty that this is bull crap.
You know it is because you and everyone can actually prove it to yourselves.

Ummm, what about it is bullcrap? An appeal to authority? I guess so considering that I’m appealing to the authority of a friend of mine who did the experiment. An experiment you could easily do yourself. And I know my friend is a straight up guy and not a liar.
What are you actually objecting to so full throatedly that you just haul off and call someone a liar? I mean it’s no mystery that the horizon doesn’t rise to eye level at height. There are millions of examples. Does that disturb you so much that you don’t even have an argument and you have to appeal to screaming, “liars!!!”
I expected more I guess. What about those images makes you believe they are faked?
It's not about anything rising to eye level. It is eye level at all times. This is what I'm trying to explain.
It's all about convergence with your eye of the light received from floor to ceiling or water to sky.

This is why I know those tests are garbage.
But you carry on believing whatever it is you believe...you're certainly entitled to that. As for me, I will never accept anything you try to tell me about horizon, unless you actually tell me what I already know to be true.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1053 on: October 26, 2020, 11:53:21 PM »
Quote from: robinofloxley
Find someone else to answer that question. I have a method to show you, if you want to hear about it fine, drop all the other conditions and let's just stick to this method. You say you want simple and then you insist on trying to complicate everything.

Come on, get on with it will you!
Ok then let's get on with it. Bit by bit. one small piece at a time with explanations of how and why, before we even try to move on.
Off you go then.

OK, so I think (difficult to be sure) that you are fine with step 1 - two people taking simultaneous photos of the moon. You'll have to correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Step 2.

First part is to figure out the linear size of a pixel on the camera's sensor. The specs for some cameras quote that figure directly, but if not, take the physical width of the sensor (usually given in mm) and divide by the number of horizontal pixels. Since this number is a fraction of a mm, you can convert to µm if you want as the numbers are more convenient.

Second part of this is to work out the angle represented by one pixel. This depends on how much you are zoomed in. The more you are zoomed in, the smaller this is.

The calculation is pixel size / focal length of lens. The result is in radians, so either keep it in radians or convert to degrees, or since the numbers are very small, convert to arcminutes or arcseconds for convenience. The units for pixel size and focal length have to match so either use mm for both or µm for both.

That's step 2. OK with this or do you have questions? Please let's keep this on track so questions should be about the method and not diving off into some other topic entirely.
Ok, so just to be clear about this camera and pixel stuff, before we go any further....how much...in size... do the pixels change from your standpoint to, say.....10 miles away full zoom?


Once you answer that can you then equate that to 240,000 miles away zoom, as your moon apparently is....or am I not getting this?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1054 on: October 26, 2020, 11:58:31 PM »

Rejecting reality will not help your case.
When you get high enough, the horizon can easily be shown to be below eye level.
It is clearly shown to not be the point of convergence.

You can dress it up as much as you want to. I don;t need to argue this point with you when people viewing this can easily find out the truth for themselves with something as simple and as cheap as a kitchen roll tube.
Just set it up to look out to sea from any vantage point they wish and all they need to do with the tube is to place a bit of cotton over the other end of the eye hole. Even make a crosshair, just ensure it's level in all ways.


This is all you need and is absolute proof of eye level, which cannot be anything else to be fair but some people just don't get it.


This simple tube shows the Earth not to be a globe, also if people take the time to actually think for themselves and not be bullied into following the indoctrinated nonsense global model.

Erm, don't you also need some other tool to level the tube? How will you know the tube is level. I mean you can point the tube at the horizon, but that's a circular argument. I know the tube is level because it points at the horizon and I know the horizon is level because the tube points at it. You can just as easily point the tube at anything and say the same thing.

How are you levelling the tube?
You simply level the tube horizontally towards the sea and sky.
Make sure you have a crosshair exactly over the front of the tube and ensure it is horizontally and vertically levelled and plumb.
The plumb part is not essential but the horizontally level line must be accurate.

Your horizon will always be on that line if it is not tampered with, because your eye simply ensures that convergence.

Don't take my word for it...go and do it.
All those people who are curious and are watching this topic....go and try it out.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1055 on: October 27, 2020, 12:02:11 AM »
Quote
The light source is the sun.

In that case then what is the source of the Suns light?
Central Earth carbon arc.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1056 on: October 27, 2020, 12:04:26 AM »
Why don't you honestly and rationally deal with the evidence that shows you are wrong?

When you show me I'm wrong I will honestly accept it. None of you have shown anything to be correct from your side or wrong from mine.

I proved to you that you are wrong about your "you can make anything fit" argument. This wasn't an opinion, it was a mathematical proof. It wasn't even a complicated one, it used simple maths from the UK KS3 (Key Stage 3 - for 11 to 14 year olds) curriculum. Nothing complicated for a self-confessed genius, surely.

Just to highlight further the absurdity of your stated position: If I give you as data, the dimensions of a battleship, since you can fit anything to any data, fit a matchbox to this data. No problem according to you.

Fine, so you've just proved to yourself (if nobody else) that you can put a real, full sized battleship inside a matchbox.
If you do not know the size and distance of something, you can make anything up to fit a criteria. You know this and this is what I'm talking about.


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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1057 on: October 27, 2020, 12:07:15 AM »
Quote
Can I prove it?.............Obviously not....but it all makes sense to me and you are welcome to shake your head and tell me I don't have any evidence.

And shake our heads we do because lets be honest here there are many things that make sense to you which don't make any sense to anyone else. But that's fine. You think the Moon is some sort of reflection or hologram (to be honest I've lost track of which it is).  But you don't give your reasons why you think that.  Or is it a case of you don't actually have any reasons.  You just think that?

On the subject of the Moon being a reflection or a hologram.  Where is the light source for this reflection or hologram? And please don't say the Sun.  You can do better than that.  I find it a fascinating idea.  Completely ridiculous at the same time but fascinating as well.
The light source is the sun. The moon is the sun. That's the holographic image from its reflection.

So if one is a reflection of the other, where are the craters on the sun and where are the sunspots on the moon?
Ever looked directly at a security light?
Have you ever walked towards and underthat security light and being able to see what was behind that bright light?



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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1058 on: October 27, 2020, 12:15:15 AM »
Then you can explain how you manage to have a flat water level on your magical bowl Earth that actually matches the observed oceans rather than flooding some areas of land entirely and leaving regions of oceans completely dry.
Flat and level will not match the oceans because the oceans are never calm. They're always under movement.
Everything is under movement but calm waters can be proven to be flat and level even if they will be agitating slightly.

Let me tell you what they don't do. They don't sit in a hump of any minor gradient over any distance. You adhere to this and yet you cannot honestly explain it from any rational point of view but are happy to from a given gravity point of view, yet cannot explain why or what gravity is.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1059 on: October 27, 2020, 12:19:45 AM »
Mate, there are many conspiracies one can get caught up in, but the flat earth one, to me, is the ultimate dangerous one if you're serious. But, if you like just upsetting people, you've done a great job.
If you get upset then you maybe shouldn't be taking me on in any way shape or form.


Quote from: Smoke Machine
Flat earth, is the ultimate in reality denial and authority denial. If you are serious, then it screams that you have unaddressed issues which you can't face. You are escaping reality by denying it. If I met you in person, (and you were serious) I would convince you to seek the help from either a psychologist or psychiatrist.
You are free to try and convince me of anything you wish. but here's the key.

“Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
 
Quote from: Smoke Machine
The fact you are here debating, (if you're serious) is a scream for help, but you aren't taking the help.
The fact that you're going to pains of trying to tell me all this, tells me it's you that appears to require the help.

Lol!  ;D Don't flatter yourself. You could never ever upset me. I was referring to others on this thread.

You asked for honesty, so I gave you honesty.  I know of hippie communities not that far from where I live, where the predominant thinking is conspiracies and many believe the earth is flat.

They are people with such a deep distrust towards science, government, and authority, that they are accountable to nothing and nobody but themselves. As a result, many are useless to society.
They are broken. Most are unemployable pisswrecks and drug addicts. Many are in dire need of psychological help.

Look at Mark Sargent. Like a 50 year old toddler, who's mother still makes him breakfast. You think he doesn't have deep psychological issues?

But, ofcourse, you're different, sceptimatic. Aren't you?
You seem to be struggling.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1060 on: October 27, 2020, 12:22:31 AM »
Quote
it is a holographic reflection of the sun, which itself is just a projected light effect from the Magic Crystal.

That being the case you would still have to ask what the power source of this 'magic crystal' is.

Great question! 

Sceptimatic, can you please tell us the fuel source for the magic crystal which powers the holographic projections of the sun and the moon?
Hydrogen, potentially, mixed with various minerals such as magnesium...etc...etc.
And it's not a magic crystal.
The crystals are the mere reflective magnifiers for the carbon arcing.

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Stash

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1061 on: October 27, 2020, 12:25:02 AM »
As for me, I will never accept anything you try to tell me about horizon anything, unless you actually tell me what I already know to be true.

FIFY

I guess that pretty much says it all. Even when you are presented with clear evidence, unless you already know it to be true, it isn't. Wow, talk about indoctrinated.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1062 on: October 27, 2020, 12:26:28 AM »


This thread demonstrates that evidence and reason can't reach people like this. It's utterly useless. People always choose to run away from reality for a reason. Probably because reality is too painful to face.

We tend to forget that this trivial topic, hides a highly dangerous condition. They effectively exclude themselves from the rest of the educated human race, living in a constant state of paranoia that everything is a lie. Naturally that lie would include covid-19 for example.

The best you can do is be honest with them or maybe discussing other topics us the key to fostering good communication and repore with them. They are people who lack trust.

If you look, lack of trust is a recurring theme in all of sceptimatic's posts.
You're welcome to deck out at any point.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1063 on: October 27, 2020, 01:05:40 AM »

Rejecting reality will not help your case.
When you get high enough, the horizon can easily be shown to be below eye level.
It is clearly shown to not be the point of convergence.

You can dress it up as much as you want to. I don;t need to argue this point with you when people viewing this can easily find out the truth for themselves with something as simple and as cheap as a kitchen roll tube.
Just set it up to look out to sea from any vantage point they wish and all they need to do with the tube is to place a bit of cotton over the other end of the eye hole. Even make a crosshair, just ensure it's level in all ways.


This is all you need and is absolute proof of eye level, which cannot be anything else to be fair but some people just don't get it.


This simple tube shows the Earth not to be a globe, also if people take the time to actually think for themselves and not be bullied into following the indoctrinated nonsense global model.

Erm, don't you also need some other tool to level the tube? How will you know the tube is level. I mean you can point the tube at the horizon, but that's a circular argument. I know the tube is level because it points at the horizon and I know the horizon is level because the tube points at it. You can just as easily point the tube at anything and say the same thing.

How are you levelling the tube?
You simply level the tube horizontally towards the sea and sky.
Make sure you have a crosshair exactly over the front of the tube and ensure it is horizontally and vertically levelled and plumb.
The plumb part is not essential but the horizontally level line must be accurate.

Your horizon will always be on that line if it is not tampered with, because your eye simply ensures that convergence.

Don't take my word for it...go and do it.
All those people who are curious and are watching this topic....go and try it out.

The problem here is that you've sketched an experiment, but you've left out all the detail. The sort of detail you always demand from the rest of us when we're trying to explain something to you.

Clearly I can't just pick up a kitchen roll tube and some cotton and prove anything to anyone. Nobody can repeat your experiment based on the limited information you've given. Fill in the details and we can ask you questions about your experiment for a change.

How are you keeping your tube still? Is it resting on something? If so, what?

How are you making sure the tube is level? Are you using a spirit level for instance? Are you fixing the tube to the level?

How do the cross hairs help? I mean you can move your eye up and down and the cross hairs will point at different things won't they?

Does it matter how high up you are? If so, why?

Fill in all the blanks and we can have a discussion.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1064 on: October 27, 2020, 01:51:10 AM »
Quote
Hydrogen, potentially, mixed with various minerals such as magnesium...etc...etc.

So in other words you haven't got a clue.  No worries.   That is just not very 'scientific' for someone who is a self-proclaimed flat Earth 'scientist'.

Quote
Central Earth carbon arc.

Really... where did the carbon come from?  How do you create carbon?  You are just guessing.  I will give you a clue.  Carbon is produced through a nuclear process known as the triple alpha process. 

I have checked out several websites and none of them say anything about carbon being in the core or the Earth. Hardly surprising considering the conditions in the core.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 02:10:54 AM by Solarwind »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1065 on: October 27, 2020, 01:55:22 AM »


This thread demonstrates that evidence and reason can't reach people like this. It's utterly useless. People always choose to run away from reality for a reason. Probably because reality is too painful to face.

We tend to forget that this trivial topic, hides a highly dangerous condition. They effectively exclude themselves from the rest of the educated human race, living in a constant state of paranoia that everything is a lie. Naturally that lie would include covid-19 for example.

The best you can do is be honest with them or maybe discussing other topics us the key to fostering good communication and repore with them. They are people who lack trust.

If you look, lack of trust is a recurring theme in all of sceptimatic's posts.
You're welcome to deck out at any point.

Lol! Spoken like a true flat earther! Always avoiding reality.  ;D I already decked out about 36 pages ago.

Explain to us again, how on flat earth, no matter what mountain, or hill, or tall building you choose, the farther away you get from it, it disappears from the bottom up instead of just shrinking.  ;D

Take your time....... ;D
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 01:58:28 AM by Smoke Machine »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1066 on: October 27, 2020, 02:18:09 AM »
Why don't you honestly and rationally deal with the evidence that shows you are wrong?

When you show me I'm wrong I will honestly accept it. None of you have shown anything to be correct from your side or wrong from mine.

I proved to you that you are wrong about your "you can make anything fit" argument. This wasn't an opinion, it was a mathematical proof. It wasn't even a complicated one, it used simple maths from the UK KS3 (Key Stage 3 - for 11 to 14 year olds) curriculum. Nothing complicated for a self-confessed genius, surely.

Just to highlight further the absurdity of your stated position: If I give you as data, the dimensions of a battleship, since you can fit anything to any data, fit a matchbox to this data. No problem according to you.

Fine, so you've just proved to yourself (if nobody else) that you can put a real, full sized battleship inside a matchbox.
If you do not know the size and distance of something, you can make anything up to fit a criteria. You know this and this is what I'm talking about.

Size and distance? What on earth do they have to do with it? An ellipse is a shape, not a size or a distance. If you have a set of observations of the position of a planet in the sky relative to the background stars, collected over a long period of time, that doesn't directly tell you anything about size and distance. Nobody has ever claimed that.

What you can do is see if those positions follow a pattern and try and figure out what that pattern is. Kepler did that and found the positions and times fitted an ellipse.

You claimed this didn't mean anything, that he could have fitted anything to this data. You claimed that you could fit anything to any data. That's garbage. That means I can give you any data I like and tell you to fit it to a straight line or a triangle and you claim it can be done.

I gave you a set of 9 positions (positions note, not distances or sizes - just like Tycho Brahe's data which Kepler used) and set you a task to make a triangle fit. You are the one claiming this can be done.

You obviously realised you'd blundered and so pretended that you didn't understand. I'm giving you the benefit of doubt here, the alternative is that you are really, really... OK I won't say it.

At this point, I think several of us sat back, opened some popcorn and waited to enjoy the show. You didn't disappoint.

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JackBlack

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1067 on: October 27, 2020, 02:42:52 AM »
It's not about anything rising to eye level. It is eye level at all times. This is what I'm trying to explain.
It's all about convergence with your eye of the light received from floor to ceiling or water to sky.
Except as repeatedly shown IT ISN'T!
What is clearly observed is that the horizon is not the convergence point.

This is why I know those tests are garbage.
No, it is why we know your claims are garbage, because your claims contradict reality, including repeatable, easily observable observations.

That is far more of a rational basis than to just reject things which show you are wrong for the simple reason that they show your claims to be wrong.
That is what you are saying, you are literally these observations because they show your claim to be wrong. Not because of any rational objection to them, but just because they show you are wrong.

I will never accept anything you try to tell me about horizon, unless you actually tell me what I already know to be true.
You mean what you falsely believe is correct even though all the available evidence which can actually determine if it is correct or not clearly shows that it is wrong?
And this is another admission that you have no concern for reality and no interest in the truth and that you will simply reject anything that shows you are wrong.

Your horizon will always be on that line if it is not tampered with, because your eye simply ensures that convergence.
Stop just repeating the same lie.
The horizon is not the point of convergence.

And you still don't tell us how you magically level the tube with just the tube rather than anything else.

Again, why not use a simple water level.
That way the water levels itself and provides the cross hair and easily shows the horizon to be below eye level (like in those photos you dishonestly dismiss as cheating just because they show you are wrong).

Don't take my word for it...go and do it.
It is quite clear that no one here is intending to do that, as your word is clearly a lie.
Why should we take your word for it, when plenty of evidence has been provided which shows otherwise.

And again, I HAVE DONE IT! YOU ARE WRONG!
The horizon is not magically converged to eye level.

If you do not know the size and distance of something, you can make anything up to fit a criteria. You know this and this is what I'm talking about.
No it wasn't.
You were objecting to fitting the path of the planets onto an ellipse, as that is what the data shows.
Even if you do just want to do it from observations of the object from "one location", you still can't make anything fit.
Instead what you need is for the size of the object to magically change as well.
Otherwise, the observed angular diameter and location still doesn't allow you to magically fit it to any shape.

So if you would like another example, then instead of those 9 points, use the angle from the centre of those points to each point, and the object always being observed to be the same angular size. Then fit these observations to a triangular path.

Then you can explain how you manage to have a flat water level on your magical bowl Earth that actually matches the observed oceans rather than flooding some areas of land entirely and leaving regions of oceans completely dry.
Flat and level will not match the oceans because the oceans are never calm.
We aren't talking about that scale and you know it.
We are talking about this, your "bowl" model of Earth with "flat" water:

The large scale were you have regions of land completely submerged, while large regions of ocean are dry, without any water.

Again:
Why haven't you explained how GPS can work with instantaneous light?
Why haven't you pointed out a single problem with my argument for the RE having a horizon which would be basically indistinguishable from "eye level" when you are close to Earth? Why do you instead repeat the same lie that a RE wouldn't have a horizon?
Why don't you explain why the horizon is clearly observed to be below eye-level from a high mountain?
Why don't you explain just how the "flat" water magically manages to obscure an object that is above it?
Why don't you explain how your alleged flat water works on your alleged bowl Earth to produce the oceans, rather than as in my example image where it completely floods the lower regions while leaving the top dry?
Why don't you show that you can fit anything to anything, by fitting a triangle to those 9 points?
Why don't you provide evidence of your allegedly flat water rather than just repeatedly asserting that water is magically flat?


If you want one which is not based upon evidence at all and instead based upon cold hard math and logic, then deal with the existence and location of the horizon on a RE, including how it is basically at eye level when you are close to the surface.
You are yet to provide any rational objection to the following line of logical reasoning that shows beyond any sane doubt that YOU ARE WRONG!
1 - Looking down you see ground/sea, i.e. EARTH.
2 - Looking up you see sky.
3 - That means if you started out looking down and slowly raised your head, your would see some kind of transition between ground/sea and sky.
4 - Assuming there isn't anything getting in your way, this transition would be a line; below this line you would see ground/sea and above this line you would see sky.
5 - This is just like if you look at a basketball. You can see a line, "below" this line you see the ball, "above" this line you see the surroundings.
6 - This line would be the horizon for a round earth. So now the question becomes where is this line?
7 - Simple trig shows that the relationship between this angle, as measured from level, the radius of the ball, and your distance/height from the surface is:
cos(a)=r/(r+h).
8 - Doing the math for a RE when you are 2 km above it shows the horizon would only be 2.7 arc minutes below level, i.e. imperceptibly different from level, and entirely consistent with what is observed.
9 - Thus your claim for why you think Earth is flat is pure garbage.


Yet rather than admit you are wrong, you just completely ignore it and just bring up the same refuted lie later.
If you can't even point out a problem with that line of reasoning or admit you are wrong, then it is quite clear that you have no intention of ever admitting you are wrong on something like this.

Then once you manage to do the impossible with that, you can do the same with your outright lie that you can fit anything to anything, by either admitting you are wrong with that claim or by fitting a triangle to those 9 data points (and point out what is wrong with my argument as to why that is impossible).

Then you can explain how you manage to have a flat water level on your magical bowl Earth that actually matches the observed oceans rather than flooding some areas of land entirely and leaving regions of oceans completely dry.

Try to actually address the issues rather than just ignoring them or strawmanning them this time.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1068 on: October 27, 2020, 03:18:26 AM »
Quote from: robinofloxley
Find someone else to answer that question. I have a method to show you, if you want to hear about it fine, drop all the other conditions and let's just stick to this method. You say you want simple and then you insist on trying to complicate everything.

Come on, get on with it will you!
Ok then let's get on with it. Bit by bit. one small piece at a time with explanations of how and why, before we even try to move on.
Off you go then.

OK, so I think (difficult to be sure) that you are fine with step 1 - two people taking simultaneous photos of the moon. You'll have to correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Step 2.

First part is to figure out the linear size of a pixel on the camera's sensor. The specs for some cameras quote that figure directly, but if not, take the physical width of the sensor (usually given in mm) and divide by the number of horizontal pixels. Since this number is a fraction of a mm, you can convert to µm if you want as the numbers are more convenient.

Second part of this is to work out the angle represented by one pixel. This depends on how much you are zoomed in. The more you are zoomed in, the smaller this is.

The calculation is pixel size / focal length of lens. The result is in radians, so either keep it in radians or convert to degrees, or since the numbers are very small, convert to arcminutes or arcseconds for convenience. The units for pixel size and focal length have to match so either use mm for both or µm for both.

That's step 2. OK with this or do you have questions? Please let's keep this on track so questions should be about the method and not diving off into some other topic entirely.
Ok, so just to be clear about this camera and pixel stuff, before we go any further....how much...in size... do the pixels change from your standpoint to, say.....10 miles away full zoom?


Once you answer that can you then equate that to 240,000 miles away zoom, as your moon apparently is....or am I not getting this?

Not sure I entirely understand the question, but I'll have a go at explaining this a bit more, see if it helps.

This example image shows the moon taken with a zoom lens at 400mm, 500mm and 1000mm settings.



The image is 440px wide and let's assume that's not been cropped, so is the whole width of the sensor. It's a real low res camera in this example. Let's assume the sensor is a DX format, so say 24mm wide.

Each pixel is therefore 24/440 mm wide (approx 0.066mm). That pixel size is fixed. It can't change no matter what zoom setting you use. It's a physical pixel on the sensor.

What does change as you zoom is the angular size of each pixel. That is to say the amount of sky each pixel captures. Zoom in and you are capturing a smaller part of the sky, i.e. more detail, with each pixel. To calculate that value, divide pixel size by focal length. So for example for the 400mm zoom, that's 0.066/400 = 0.000136364 radians or 0.007813061 degrees. Do the same calculation for the others and you get 0.006250449 (500mm zoom) and 0.003125224 (1000mm zoom).

Notice how the angular pixel size has gone down from roughly 0.007, to 0.006 to 0.003 as the focal length has increased.

Now we can use these to work out the angular width of the moon. Just multiply the angular size of a pixel by the number of pixels.

At 400mm, that's 0.007813061 x 65 = 0.508 degrees.
At 500mm, that's 0.006250449 x 81 = 0.506 degrees.
At 1000mm, that's 0.003125224 x 160 = 0.500 degrees.

There's a little bit of variation because the image is very low res so the pixel widths aren't that accurate, but the point is, it's saying the moon is 1/2 degree wide no matter whether it's zoomed in or zoomed out. Which is correct.

Once we've done this pixel size calculation, if we know the focal length we're using we can convert pixel distances on the image to angular distances. That's the point of this step.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 03:46:18 AM by robinofloxley »

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JackBlack

  • 21898
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1069 on: October 27, 2020, 03:43:52 AM »
Size and distance? What on earth do they have to do with it? An ellipse is a shape, not a size or a distance. If you have a set of observations of the position of a planet in the sky relative to the background stars, collected over a long period of time, that doesn't directly tell you anything about size and distance. Nobody has ever claimed that.
He is trying to claim that without knowing the size and/or distance you cannot determine the shape.
For example, if you assume the observations were taken from near the centre of the ellipse, you don't have the points you specified but instead you have these red lines:

Without knowing the size of the object or the distance to it you cannot place it at any particular location along these red lines.
So he thinks that while you can fit it to the black ellipse you provided, you could also fit it to the blue ellipse or the red triangle.

The problem with that is we don't need to know the absolute size or distance but can work with the relative size and/or distance.
With the ellipse, the distance remains roughly the same and thus the apparent size will remain roughly the same, but there is no particular preference of the blue vs black ellipse, until you get something like the transit of Venus.
With the triangle, the relative sizes would change dramatically.

The other related issue is the speed of the object.
If it travels at a roughly constant angular speed, then this equates to a roughly constant linear speed for the ellipses, but for the triangle, it corresponds to going slowest at the straight part of the triangle when perpendicular to the view, getting faster as it approaches the corner at which point it does an extremely abrupt turn.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1070 on: October 27, 2020, 04:25:15 AM »

This thread demonstrates that evidence and reason can't reach people like this. It's utterly useless. People always choose to run away from reality for a reason. Probably because reality is too painful to face.

We tend to forget that this trivial topic, hides a highly dangerous condition. They effectively exclude themselves from the rest of the educated human race, living in a constant state of paranoia that everything is a lie. Naturally that lie would include covid-19 for example.

The best you can do is be honest with them or maybe discussing other topics us the key to fostering good communication and repore with them. They are people who lack trust.

If you look, lack of trust is a recurring theme in all of sceptimatic's posts.

This all seems very true. 

It seems like such a lonely existence.  Unable to effectively engage in society, being at ends with everyone over your own strangely held beliefs.  How do you make interpersonal relationships where trust is non-existent?  How do you find friends and companions that are not turned off by the paranoia and delusions?

I hope I am wrong and Sceptimatic is able to compartmentalize his beliefs - and maybe he is able to live a full, rich, and happy life. But this seems so improbable, and I imagine the reality is far from this. 

Maybe he is just making it all up and doesn't believe it?  Such a colossal waste of time,  but maybe better than the alternative.   

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1071 on: October 27, 2020, 04:32:34 AM »
Quote
it is a holographic reflection of the sun, which itself is just a projected light effect from the Magic Crystal.

That being the case you would still have to ask what the power source of this 'magic crystal' is.

Great question! 

Sceptimatic, can you please tell us the fuel source for the magic crystal which powers the holographic projections of the sun and the moon?
Hydrogen, potentially, mixed with various minerals such as magnesium...etc...etc.
And it's not a magic crystal.
The crystals are the mere reflective magnifiers for the carbon arcing.

Is it an engineered system?  Naturally occurring?  Im trying to picture this in my mind.  There is a tower of some sort with a crystal on it?  Lots of crystals?  Where does the hydrogen / mineral mixture sit?  Why a carbon arc lamp, is there something special about carbon electrodes or something?  Is it manned and maintained by someone / something?   How does it drive night and day?  Seasons?  Time zones?

Just seems so fantastical.  What drives your imagination towards this as an explanation?  Just meandering thoughts, or did you hear about this from someone? 

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1072 on: October 27, 2020, 04:48:25 AM »
Not for the first time, everything Scepti comes up with as an 'explanation' for anything seems to generate more questions rather than answers!

There is plenty of geological evidence that that shows us that the Earth (and hence the Sun and Moon as well) is billions of years old so presumably this crystal has been around for at least that long as well.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 04:50:36 AM by Solarwind »

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rvlvr

  • 2148
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1073 on: October 27, 2020, 06:11:41 AM »
There is plenty of geological evidence that that shows us that the Earth (and hence the Sun and Moon as well) is billions of years old so presumably this crystal has been around for at least that long as well.
Were you there?! How do you know?!

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1074 on: October 27, 2020, 08:22:40 AM »
Quote
Were you there?

Absolutely... looking in the mirror I'd say I am not in bad shape for my age!

Referencing the Wiki I see it is as usual rather vague and none-descriptive about the age/formation of the Earth.  Very helpful.  Just about the only mention of anything connected to an age for a flat Earth is:

Quote
Mountains are created over long periods of time by tremendous forces within the Flat Earth.

That doesn't even give us an age as such does it and we all know (RE included) that mountains are not exactly formed overnight!
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 08:44:08 AM by Solarwind »

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rvlvr

  • 2148
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1075 on: October 27, 2020, 09:16:30 AM »
By keeping it vague they allow us to think without doctrination.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1076 on: October 27, 2020, 09:35:17 AM »
Ah right.. so nothing to do with not having a clue then?  What is the purpose of having a 'Wiki' if it doesn't really tell you anything useful?  Sorry I'm just being picky and comparing it to the mainstream wiki.

The other problem is that some of the info in the FE wiki seems to be a bit off limits.  For example I'd love to find out what is says about stellar parallax but unfortunately it seems to be censored..

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-editpage.php?page=Stellar+Parallax

As does the page about solar parallax...

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-editpage.php?page=Solar+Parallax

And the page about aberration...

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-editpage.php?page=Aberration

A bit ironic for a society that seems obsessed with 'secrets' and supposedly promotes 'free thinking'  eh!

I'm surprised there isn't a page about the famous MIUAYGA effect.  Have you heard of that?

« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 09:45:30 AM by Solarwind »

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rvlvr

  • 2148
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1077 on: October 27, 2020, 10:13:28 AM »
I am sure their reasons are sound. They hold the torch to fight back the dark that is RE science.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1078 on: October 27, 2020, 10:39:10 AM »
You say that but anyone who tries to use the FE Wiki to learn more about FE are left pretty much in the dark aren't they.  It isn't what you might call very enlightening.  I just tried to find out what the FE Wiki has to say about the layout of the continents.  Ooopss.. yet another dead end!  See what I mean about being kept in the dark!  Continuing on with your metaphor about torches it must need some new batteries.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/Antarctica

What is solar parallax anyway?  Given my understanding of what parallax means I cannot think how you would measure any parallax connected with the Sun.  Since I don't seem to have permission to access that Wiki page perhaps you could offer some enlightenment?

« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 10:48:24 AM by Solarwind »

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rvlvr

  • 2148
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1079 on: October 27, 2020, 11:20:19 AM »