Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.

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Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« on: February 07, 2007, 01:14:52 PM »
Hello there.

I'm new here and new to the flat earth theory. I thought this debate was settled quite a few centuries ago.

Anyway, admittedly I've not read too much into the arguments for Flat Earth. But...just as a starter, to settle something which will lead into my argument against, I have a question.

And that question is...how far do Flat Earth believers perceive the horizon to be from one stands?

Cheers!

Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2007, 01:22:50 PM »
Now that's a question I've not seen asked yet, though that doesn't mean it hasn't been. I await the answer...with baited breath even.

:D <--looking perky and interested
quote]The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane. ~ Twain[/quote]
Quote
Et tu, Bruté? ~ Shakespeare

Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2007, 01:32:13 PM »
I'm curious as to how far Flat Earth people perceive the horizon.

I'd would really like an answer to this so I could start my argument, or rather better my understanding of the world we live in...or on if you like.

Cheers

*

Dioptimus Drime

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Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2007, 01:39:58 PM »
What do you mean by that? You mean what makes the horizon as it is? It's due to human ability to see and how far we can see. Also, it has to do with the effect of standing on a humongous flat surface and what we see when we do, as well as the effects of the atmosphere on vision, all of which factor in to the appearance of a "horizon."

Sorry if that's not what you were asking. If it wasn't, please clarify the question.

~D-Draw

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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2007, 01:44:33 PM »
Quote from: "DiegoDraw"
What do you mean by that? You mean what makes the horizon as it is? It's due to human ability to see and how far we can see. Also, it has to do with the effect of standing on a humongous flat surface and what we see when we do, as well as the effects of the atmosphere on vision, all of which factor in to the appearance of a "horizon."

Sorry if that's not what you were asking. If it wasn't, please clarify the question.

~D-Draw


Ok...so how far can a human see then? Would u argue that a ship disappears over the 'horizon' due us not having strong enough eye sight to continue seeing it further than we do?

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BOGWarrior89

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Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2007, 01:45:32 PM »
The horizon is "x" distance away.  I keep trying to measure "x", but as I approach "x" (I -> x), "x" seems to get larger (x -> infinity).

Therefore, the horizon is an infinitely large distance away.  If you're laughing right now, then you're on the right track.

Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2007, 01:57:07 PM »
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"
The horizon is "x" distance away.  I keep trying to measure "x", but as I approach "x" (I -> x), "x" seems to get larger (x -> infinity).

Therefore, the horizon is an infinitely large distance away.  If you're laughing right now, then you're on the right track.


The horzion is where the sky is percieved to meet the land/sea.

So in line with your logic, if the earth was flat, the line one would see as the horizon, if one was to stand in the middle of the Earth (with the earth apparently having a diameter of 24,900 miles) would appear to be 12,450miles away, would it not? At least...either, the maxium distance the horizon could be is 24,900 to stand on one side of the world look across its diameter. So it is not X, is it?

Say why can we see ships disappear over the horizon? Planes disappear over the horizon? If we see them disappear over the horizon, at what distance do we percieve them disappear over the horizon?

Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2007, 02:01:29 PM »
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"
The horizon is "x" distance away.  I keep trying to measure "x", but as I approach "x" (I -> x), "x" seems to get larger (x -> infinity).

Therefore, the horizon is an infinitely large distance away.  If you're laughing right now, then you're on the right track.


Dude your theory specifies the size of the earth disk. How can the horizon be infinite distance away ? Makes no sense to me. If you keep traveling towards the horizon, eventually you will reach the earth's edge.

God I feel like I'm back in the 14th century convincing someone that the earth is indeed flat. ROLF.

Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2007, 02:02:04 PM »
These optical illusions and atmospheric distortion wouldn't make a clearly defined line that we see as the horizon. What we can see of the surface would appear to fade out gradually.

Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2007, 02:03:15 PM »
Quote from: "iknowearthisflat"
ROLF.

I miss The Muppets, too :(

Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2007, 02:04:55 PM »
Quote from: "Ambassadork"
These optical illusions and atmospheric distortion wouldn't make a clearly defined line that we see as the horizon. What we can see of the surface would appear to fade out gradually.


What optical illusions? Atmospheric distortion to what affect? You could stilll argue some form of distance to where we percieve the horizon, where boats  and planes disappear.

Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2007, 02:23:35 PM »
some sort of response would be welcomed. As no one seems to be to answer the question in support of Flat Earth

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Rick_James

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Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2007, 02:28:29 PM »
Quote from: "edlloyd"
some sort of response would be welcomed. As no one seems to be to answer the question in support of Flat Earth



Please be patient. Some of us are at work, and don't have time for lengthy reponses. More FE'ers will log on, but you may need to wait more than 20mins.

Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2007, 02:29:54 PM »
fair enough. I await a response

Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2007, 03:10:29 PM »
Quote from: "edlloyd"
Quote from: "Ambassadork"
These optical illusions and atmospheric distortion wouldn't make a clearly defined line that we see as the horizon. What we can see of the surface would appear to fade out gradually.


What optical illusions? Atmospheric distortion to what affect? You could stilll argue some form of distance to where we percieve the horizon, where boats  and planes disappear.

FEs claim that a ship's hull disappears before the mast over the horizon because of optical illusions and atmospheric distortion. And the density of the atmosphere prevents us from seeing all the way to the  Ice Wall (or from Key West to Cuba for that matter).

I was pointing out that if their theory was correct we wouldn't see a clearly defined line as the horizon. Someone started a thread that illustrated this fairly well. I can't remember who made the thread, or the title so it might take me a while to dig it up.

Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2007, 03:47:00 PM »
Quote from: "Ambassadork"
Quote from: "edlloyd"
Quote from: "Ambassadork"
These optical illusions and atmospheric distortion wouldn't make a clearly defined line that we see as the horizon. What we can see of the surface would appear to fade out gradually.


What optical illusions? Atmospheric distortion to what affect? You could stilll argue some form of distance to where we percieve the horizon, where boats  and planes disappear.

FEs claim that a ship's hull disappears before the mast over the horizon because of optical illusions and atmospheric distortion. And the density of the atmosphere prevents us from seeing all the way to the  Ice Wall (or from Key West to Cuba for that matter).

I was pointing out that if their theory was correct we wouldn't see a clearly defined line as the horizon. Someone started a thread that illustrated this fairly well. I can't remember who made the thread, or the title so it might take me a while to dig it up.



Sorry are u in support of Flat Earth? I don't mean that question to sound condescending. Just curious.

Where I live in England, I can see the Isle of Wight, it's 10 miles away from where I live. The coast of France is 70 miles away from where I live. The sun, according to Flat Eartists is 3000 miles away with a diameter of 32miles. That is just over 42 times the distance compared to the distance of where france is where I live in England I have a line of sight, with a telescope, I could see the French coast as the coast is quite clearly longer than 32miles, that faces me. I can't see, however, as the earth is not flat. So not because of the degree of atmospheric distortion, when I can see something that is 42 times the distance.

Also, standing on Mt. Everest, the tallest mountain on earth, the farthest you could see is 250 miles to the horizon. Which means I stand 500miles away from Everest, I can't see it. But how I can see the sun through this athomospheric distortion, but if everest was at 500miles from me(1/6 closer to me than the sun at 3,000miles).

And Solar eclipses...How are these explained?

Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2007, 03:50:50 PM »
Quote from: "Ambassadork"
Quote from: "edlloyd"
Quote from: "Ambassadork"
These optical illusions and atmospheric distortion wouldn't make a clearly defined line that we see as the horizon. What we can see of the surface would appear to fade out gradually.


What optical illusions? Atmospheric distortion to what affect? You could stilll argue some form of distance to where we percieve the horizon, where boats  and planes disappear.

FEs claim that a ship's hull disappears before the mast over the horizon because of optical illusions and atmospheric distortion. And the density of the atmosphere prevents us from seeing all the way to the  Ice Wall (or from Key West to Cuba for that matter).

I was pointing out that if their theory was correct we wouldn't see a clearly defined line as the horizon. Someone started a thread that illustrated this fairly well. I can't remember who made the thread, or the title so it might take me a while to dig it up.


Also...atmospheric distortion is surely the bending of the light, not the disappearance of. For the hull to disappear before the mast suggests its lowering/disappearing over the horizon, the earth dipping, curving. How can the light of Hull disappear first? At that distance all distortions would affect the hull and mast as they are so close together.

Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2007, 03:56:15 PM »
The fact that I said "FEs" and not "we" should tell you I am not in support of Flat Earth.

I was merely telling you what they will say.

As for seeing farther from higher up, they claim that since the atmosphere is less dense at altitude, you are in essence looking through less atmosphere.

All this has been discussed at length in countless threads.

?

Rick_James

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Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2007, 04:36:17 PM »
Quote from: "Ambassadork"
The fact that I said "FEs" and not "we" should tell you I am not in support of Flat Earth.

I was merely telling you what they will say.

As for seeing farther from higher up, they claim that since the atmosphere is less dense at altitude, you are in essence looking through less atmosphere.

All this has been discussed at length in countless threads.



Actually we would say that you can't see a ship "sinking" into the horizon - you could observe it fading away, but not sinking.

Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2007, 04:55:54 PM »
Quote from: "Rick_James"
Quote from: "Ambassadork"
The fact that I said "FEs" and not "we" should tell you I am not in support of Flat Earth.

I was merely telling you what they will say.

As for seeing farther from higher up, they claim that since the atmosphere is less dense at altitude, you are in essence looking through less atmosphere.

All this has been discussed at length in countless threads.



Actually we would say that you can't see a ship "sinking" into the horizon - you could observe it fading away, but not sinking.



Why does it fade? How can it fade?

?

GeoGuy

Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2007, 05:03:19 PM »
Guess. I'm sure you can thing of a few ways.

Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2007, 05:04:23 PM »
Quote from: "edlloyd"
Why does it fade? How can it fade?


How does a car fade away when driving away on a foggy day?  Same principle.  It just takes more distance on a clear day.

Look at the "Distance" statistic on this web page.  It says that you can't see farther than 16km.  Why not?  Because air is translucent, not transparent.  Only empty space is translucent.  If you get enough air between you and another object, you won't be able to see that object.  This goes for FE as well as RE.

RE just says that you'll see the ship's hull descend below the horizon first on most clear days.

Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2007, 05:04:48 PM »
Quote from: "GeoGuy"
Guess. I'm sure you can thing of a few ways.


dips below the horizon cos the earth is curved?

I just wanted to hear their answer. That...that would be lovley actual, instead of the flawed FAQ bible

?

BOGWarrior89

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Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2007, 05:14:23 PM »
Quote from: "edlloyd"
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"
The horizon is "x" distance away.  I keep trying to measure "x", but as I approach "x" (I -> x), "x" seems to get larger (x -> infinity).

Therefore, the horizon is an infinitely large distance away.  If you're laughing right now, then you're on the right track.


The horzion is where the sky is percieved to meet the land/sea.

So in line with your logic, if the earth was flat, the line one would see as the horizon, if one was to stand in the middle of the Earth (with the earth apparently having a diameter of 24,900 miles) would appear to be 12,450miles away, would it not? At least...either, the maxium distance the horizon could be is 24,900 to stand on one side of the world look across its diameter. So it is not X, is it?

Say why can we see ships disappear over the horizon? Planes disappear over the horizon? If we see them disappear over the horizon, at what distance do we percieve them disappear over the horizon?

Quote from: "iknowearthisflat"
Dude your theory specifies the size of the earth disk. How can the horizon be infinite distance away ? Makes no sense to me. If you keep traveling towards the horizon, eventually you will reach the earth's edge.

God I feel like I'm back in the 14th century convincing someone that the earth is indeed flat. ROLF.


Guys, you obviously didn't read the post after you quoted it:
Code: [Select]
[color=#background]If you're laughing right now, then you're on the right track.[/color]

In other words, I was joking.

Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2007, 05:18:28 PM »
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"
Quote from: "edlloyd"
Quote from: "BOGWarrior89"
The horizon is "x" distance away.  I keep trying to measure "x", but as I approach "x" (I -> x), "x" seems to get larger (x -> infinity).

Therefore, the horizon is an infinitely large distance away.  If you're laughing right now, then you're on the right track.


The horzion is where the sky is percieved to meet the land/sea.

So in line with your logic, if the earth was flat, the line one would see as the horizon, if one was to stand in the middle of the Earth (with the earth apparently having a diameter of 24,900 miles) would appear to be 12,450miles away, would it not? At least...either, the maxium distance the horizon could be is 24,900 to stand on one side of the world look across its diameter. So it is not X, is it?

Say why can we see ships disappear over the horizon? Planes disappear over the horizon? If we see them disappear over the horizon, at what distance do we percieve them disappear over the horizon?

Quote from: "iknowearthisflat"
Dude your theory specifies the size of the earth disk. How can the horizon be infinite distance away ? Makes no sense to me. If you keep traveling towards the horizon, eventually you will reach the earth's edge.

God I feel like I'm back in the 14th century convincing someone that the earth is indeed flat. ROLF.


Guys, you obviously didn't read the post after you quoted it:
Code: [Select]
[color=#background]If you're laughing right now, then you're on the right track.[/color]

Jokig about what? That the earth is flat?

In other words, I was joking.

Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2007, 06:47:12 AM »
Hi. I'm pretty certain the earth is a sphere, but it's interesting reading your theories anyway.  You have some nice ideas, but it's science fiction really.  Anyway, my thoughts on the horizon topic.  The FE people say that a boat in the distance will seem to dissapear basically because the atmosphere distortes our view from such a great distance.  However, if you are standing at sea level, the horizon is only about 3 miles away.  I'm sure you could see through the atmosphere on a clear day with a telescope for a distance of as little as 3 miles.  I really don't think there would be that level of atmospheric distortion.  

Also, ok this isn't anything scientific or proof, but just as an opinion. As a person who leaves by the sea, you only have to look into the distance to sea the perfect horizon that just seems to bend around from coast to coast and dip into the distance, with the sky arching over it like a dome. Even from down here, the earth seems pretty round to me.

?

BOGWarrior89

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Hi. I'm new and a skeptic.
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2007, 02:11:53 PM »
Quote from: "edlloyd"
Joking about what? That the earth is flat?


No; about the horizon being an infinitely large distance away.  I was having fun with limits.