GPS satellites???

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TheEngineer

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GPS satellites???
« Reply #90 on: February 12, 2007, 06:20:58 PM »
Quote from: "Quarrior"

I described Trilateration, YOU described multilateration you moron

Ok, then, show me where.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

GPS satellites???
« Reply #91 on: February 12, 2007, 06:31:39 PM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"

The receiver contains an antenna, a quartz clock, and a computer. When it receives a signal, it calculates the transit time of the signal based on the time stamp contained within the signal, and using the known speed of light, determines the receiver's distance from the transmitter. The receiver can be anywhere on the surface of a sphere whose radius is is the calculated distance from the transmitter.


Multilateration...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbolic_positioning
...population who believe in globularism solely on the basis of having been told so?

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TheEngineer

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GPS satellites???
« Reply #92 on: February 12, 2007, 06:33:21 PM »
Apparently you don't actually know what multilateration is.  Tell me in your own words what it is.  No links, just a simple explanation.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

GPS satellites???
« Reply #93 on: February 12, 2007, 07:06:59 PM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
Apparently you don't actually know what multilateration is.  Tell me in your own words what it is.  No links, just a simple explanation.

The only difference between the multilateration you suggest and real multilateration is that in reality, yes the object which requests its location is both a transmitter and a reciever in ALL cases, unlike GPS where basic commercial devices are recievers as well as the more advanced devices being transmitters and recievers. However multilateration is what you described is locating a position using very accurate clocks
Multilateration - the calculation of a position based on the time difference of accurate clocks from recievers at fixed position. A short signal is sent from the transmitter to 4 points on the earths surface. Now using the Difference in the Arrival time, the recievers, using atomic clocks accurately calculate the transmitters position.

The first two recievers calculate one time difference, also know as TDOA (time difference of arrival). This creates a hyperbola of possible locations. The 3rd reciever creates a second TDOA. The second hyperbola created from this TDOA will intersect the first. A curve of possible locations exists between these two points. A fourth reciever then confirms the exact position with a third Hyperbola. Where the curve and this hyperbola intersect is the position of the transmitter.
...population who believe in globularism solely on the basis of having been told so?

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EvilToothpaste

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GPS satellites???
« Reply #94 on: February 12, 2007, 08:40:35 PM »
I'm going to have to concur with what TheEngineer described; it is not multilateration because there is no "pinged" signal from the GPS device.  Even though GPS transmits a "time", the information is not at all related to time-delay of a pinged signal (as in multilateration).  The "time" information transmitted by GPS is directly used to calculate the distance between the two devices, thus is trilateration.

Edit:  Wiki has a great statement in the article for multi- that you posted (but must not have read):
Quote
Multilateration should not be confused with trilateration, which uses absolute measurements of time-of-arrival from three or more sites.

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EvilToothpaste

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GPS satellites???
« Reply #95 on: February 12, 2007, 08:51:02 PM »
Here is another interesting tidbit from Wiki on GPS:
Quote
Developed by the United States Department of Defense, it is officially named NAVSTAR GPS (Navigation Satellite Timing And Ranging Global Positioning System). The satellite constellation is managed by the United States Air Force 50th Space Wing. Although the cost of maintaining the system is approximately US$400 million per year, including the replacement of aging satellites, GPS is free for civilian use as a public good.

That wreaks of conspiracy in my nose.  The public doesn't need this service for free; I guarantee companies and outdoorsmen would pay for use of GPS.  There is no benefit for the military in spending all that money and not charging for the systems use . . . except to make us believe the Earth is round. :wink:

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TheEngineer

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GPS satellites???
« Reply #96 on: February 12, 2007, 09:47:14 PM »
Quote from: "Quarrior"

Multilateration - the calculation of a position based on the time difference of accurate clocks from recievers at fixed position. A short signal is sent from the transmitter to 4 points on the earths surface. Now using the Difference in the Arrival time, the recievers, using atomic clocks accurately calculate the transmitters position.


Nope.  In multilateration, the unit whose position is to be determined, transmits a signal to multiple receivers that use time difference of arrival between the receiving sites to determine a set of possible locations that lie in a hyperboloid, hence  the term hyperbolic positioning.  This does not require an absolute time, as the only thing that matters is the difference of arrival times between the receivers.  Now, if you add in a third receiver, you now get another hyperboloid, defining a curve in space.  Toss in a fourth receiver, and you now have your location in space, without reference to an absolute time.

In case you don't know, a hyperboloid is kind of like two cones connected at the points.

What I explained was nothing like multilateration:  The unit whose position is to be determined, receives absolute time and position signals from a transmitter.  Using the time delay in reception, it calculates its distance from the transmitter.  This defines a sphere in space.  A sphere is not a hyperboloid.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

GPS satellites???
« Reply #97 on: February 13, 2007, 04:06:53 AM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
Quote from: "Quarrior"

Multilateration - the calculation of a position based on the time difference of accurate clocks from recievers at fixed position. A short signal is sent from the transmitter to 4 points on the earths surface. Now using the Difference in the Arrival time, the recievers, using atomic clocks accurately calculate the transmitters position.


Nope.  In multilateration, the unit whose position is to be determined, transmits a signal to multiple receivers that use time difference of arrival between the receiving sites to determine a set of possible locations that lie in a hyperboloid, hence  the term hyperbolic positioning.  This does not require an absolute time, as the only thing that matters is the difference of arrival times between the receivers.  Now, if you add in a third receiver, you now get another hyperboloid, defining a curve in space.  Toss in a fourth receiver, and you now have your location in space, without reference to an absolute time.

In case you don't know, a hyperboloid is kind of like two cones connected at the points.

What I explained was nothing like multilateration:  The unit whose position is to be determined, receives absolute time and position signals from a transmitter.  Using the time delay in reception, it calculates its distance from the transmitter.  This defines a sphere in space.  A sphere is not a hyperboloid.


Ok Yep thats right, but it still supports my original point that the GPS uses satellites, otherwise there would be no need for the GPS device to reset itself all the time, it could simply calculate its position use multilateration as the recievers for multilateration are fixed.
...population who believe in globularism solely on the basis of having been told so?

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EvilToothpaste

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GPS satellites???
« Reply #98 on: February 13, 2007, 04:53:15 AM »
Quote from: "Quarrior"
...it could simply calculate its position use multilateration as the recievers for multilateration are fixed.

That is true, it could; but that would not be simpler.  Trilateration still works when the transmitters are stationary.  It is simpler for a GPS unit to have a fairly accurate quartz clock that is calibrated on startup rather than having a transmitter.

GPS satellites???
« Reply #99 on: February 13, 2007, 05:12:58 AM »
Quote from: "EvilToothpaste"
Trilateration still works when the transmitters are stationary.  It is simpler for a GPS unit to have a fairly accurate quartz clock that is calibrated on startup rather than having a transmitter.


When the transmitters are stationary there is no need to trilateration because, as we said they are fixed. It would be much cheaper to have a simple IR emitting device and recievers on the ground than pointlessly launch $400 million dollars worth of satellites and  then upkeep and replacement costs added on annually.
...population who believe in globularism solely on the basis of having been told so?

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EvilToothpaste

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GPS satellites???
« Reply #100 on: February 13, 2007, 05:31:23 AM »
Quote from: "Quarrior"
It would be much cheaper to have a simple IR emitting device and recievers on the ground than pointlessly launch $400 million dollars worth of satellites and  then upkeep and replacement costs added on annually.

Yes it would, which is why the whole GPS thing is suspicious.

GPS satellites???
« Reply #101 on: February 13, 2007, 05:39:17 AM »
Quote from: "EvilToothpaste"
Quote from: "Quarrior"
It would be much cheaper to have a simple IR emitting device and recievers on the ground than pointlessly launch $400 million dollars worth of satellites and  then upkeep and replacement costs added on annually.

Yes it would, which is why the whole GPS thing is suspicious.


The amount of money that the Government would need to hide the flat earth is really quite rediculous.
...population who believe in globularism solely on the basis of having been told so?

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EvilToothpaste

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GPS satellites???
« Reply #102 on: February 13, 2007, 05:47:01 AM »
I know, they do spend way too much money.  Lies cost us all dearly, and in so many ways.   :(

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TheEngineer

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GPS satellites???
« Reply #103 on: February 13, 2007, 06:58:26 AM »
Quote from: "Quarrior"


When the transmitters are stationary there is no need to trilateration because, as we said they are fixed.

What good is it to know where the transmitters are, if you don't know where you are?


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

GPS satellites???
« Reply #104 on: February 13, 2007, 08:07:27 AM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
Quote from: "Quarrior"


When the transmitters are stationary there is no need to trilateration because, as we said they are fixed.

What good is it to know where the transmitters are, if you don't know where you are?


We send out a pulse, then the fixed recievers calculate our position based on theTDOA, then send it back to us.
...population who believe in globularism solely on the basis of having been told so?

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TheEngineer

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GPS satellites???
« Reply #105 on: February 13, 2007, 12:12:32 PM »
Quote from: "Quarrior"

We send out a pulse, then the fixed recievers calculate our position based on theTDOA, then send it back to us.

Or, one can have a simple, relativly cheap receiver that calculates position based on uniformly broadcast signals from transmitters with known locations.  Which seems to be the way to go as it's what is used in GPS and the very popular VOR.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

GPS satellites???
« Reply #106 on: February 13, 2007, 04:53:02 PM »
Quote from: "TheEngineer"
Quote from: "Quarrior"

We send out a pulse, then the fixed recievers calculate our position based on theTDOA, then send it back to us.

Or, one can have a simple, relativly cheap receiver that calculates position based on uniformly broadcast signals from transmitters with known locations.  Which seems to be the way to go as it's what is used in GPS and the very popular VOR.


It would overall be cheaper to use multilateration, cheap IR/radio emitters and stationary recievers vs $400 million dollars worth of satellites (negating upkeep costs) and much more expensive GPS devices which cost anywhere from $400AU to $1000AU each
...population who believe in globularism solely on the basis of having been told so?

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TheEngineer

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GPS satellites???
« Reply #107 on: February 13, 2007, 04:58:28 PM »
Well, as Evil as stated, that makes GPS highly suspect.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

GPS satellites???
« Reply #108 on: February 13, 2007, 07:30:03 PM »
It all comes back to the government...how can You FE'ers not see that basing a theory on government conspiracy is total rubbish
...population who believe in globularism solely on the basis of having been told so?

GPS satellites???
« Reply #109 on: February 13, 2007, 07:41:15 PM »
Nothing is based on government conspiracy; rather, government conspiracy is an aspect.  Not all that many people need to know it; I know it sounds ridiculous at first, but it really is plausible if you think about it.

GPS satellites???
« Reply #110 on: February 14, 2007, 02:08:21 AM »
Quote from: "Czigot"
Nothing is based on government conspiracy; rather, government conspiracy is an aspect.  Not all that many people need to know it; I know it sounds ridiculous at first, but it really is plausible if you think about it.


Actually no its not, the amount of people that would need to know to cover that up is rediculous, its impossible for just a few people, even at the top of a governmental department to hide it from the masses. All developed countries and even some undeveloped nations have the means to test whether the world was flat. Any Nation with an airforce could do it. Most 1st world countries have satellite programs. The amount of money to cover it up would be rediculous.
...population who believe in globularism solely on the basis of having been told so?

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Rick_James

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GPS satellites???
« Reply #111 on: February 14, 2007, 04:55:16 AM »
Quote from: "Czigot"
Nothing is based on government conspiracy; rather, government conspiracy is an aspect.  Not all that many people need to know it; I know it sounds ridiculous at first, but it really is plausible if you think about it.

GPS satellites???
« Reply #112 on: February 14, 2007, 05:27:32 AM »
Quote from: "Rick_James"
Quote from: "Czigot"
Nothing is based on government conspiracy; rather, government conspiracy is an aspect.  Not all that many people need to know it; I know it sounds ridiculous at first, but it really is plausible if you think about it.


Not really if you actually think about it logistically. The conpiracy compendium doesn't even begin to cover it
...population who believe in globularism solely on the basis of having been told so?

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EvilToothpaste

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GPS satellites???
« Reply #113 on: February 14, 2007, 08:56:37 AM »
Quote from: "Quarrior"
All developed countries and even some undeveloped nations have the means to test whether the world was flat. Any Nation with an airforce could do it. Most 1st world countries have satellite programs.

Yes they do have the means to test this, but why would they?  They already 'know' the Earth is round.

GPS satellites???
« Reply #114 on: February 14, 2007, 04:39:06 PM »
Quote from: "EvilToothpaste"
Quote from: "Quarrior"
All developed countries and even some undeveloped nations have the means to test whether the world was flat. Any Nation with an airforce could do it. Most 1st world countries have satellite programs.

Yes they do have the means to test this, but why would they?  They already 'know' the Earth is round.


They would see it is flat though. Noone is that blind to not question something when they can clearly see differently.
...population who believe in globularism solely on the basis of having been told so?

GPS satellites???
« Reply #115 on: February 14, 2007, 06:47:42 PM »
They can "clearly see differently"?  How's that?

And what is it with all you argumentative types and bad grammar?

GPS satellites???
« Reply #116 on: February 14, 2007, 07:04:26 PM »
Quote from: "Czigot"
They can "clearly see differently"?  How's that?

And what is it with all you argumentative types and bad grammar?


Too lazy to correct. From the alttitude which most fighters can reach today, the sphereical nature of the Earth could be clearly defined.
...population who believe in globularism solely on the basis of having been told so?

GPS satellites???
« Reply #117 on: February 14, 2007, 08:30:26 PM »

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Tom Bishop

GPS satellites???
« Reply #118 on: February 14, 2007, 08:53:59 PM »
Quote
Too lazy to correct. From the alttitude which most fighters can reach today, the sphereical nature of the Earth could be clearly defined.


Incorrect. No plane could see the earth as a globe.

GPS satellites???
« Reply #119 on: February 15, 2007, 01:05:08 AM »
Quote from: "Tom Bishop"
Quote
Too lazy to correct. From the alttitude which most fighters can reach today, the sphereical nature of the Earth could be clearly defined.


Incorrect. No plane could see the earth as a globe.


You're an idiot tom, planes can get high enough to see a clear curvature due to its spherical nature.

The SR-71 blackbird can reach 87 000 ft, they've been around since 1964.
The Eurofighter Typhoon can reach 60 000ft and is in service for several different airforces.
...population who believe in globularism solely on the basis of having been told so?