Re: Space Travel, the Firmament & God

wise, most of your points are addressed in other posts. Here I just address this one:

The "Conspiracy" Fallacy:
For years, people like you called the dangers of certain vaccines a "conspiracy theory." Then the health ministries released the data. We see a global decrease in the male population due to heart attacks; science has now confirmed that these products affect men disproportionately. I truly hope you followed the "science" you believe in so blindly and took every shot offered to you. At least your side would be clearly defined. We warned for years that Bill Gates was manipulating climate and health sectors, and now the evidence is surfacing. We have worked through the data to show how the "climate change" narrative is a calculated deception. To you, it’s a conspiracy; to us, it’s a verified reality. When Noah was building the Ark, they called the flood a conspiracy theory—until it started raining.

Yes, I believe that conspiracy theories in general are dangerous, because they countreract critical thinking and spread untruths. You believe in a giant conspiracy to hide shape of the Earth.
If people take this seriously, they will get a false idea of ​​how the world works, an unjustified distrust of science in general, a distorted logic, a refusal to face the truth when necessary, which is dangerous and can be exploited by unscrupulous power players, just as Hitler exploited the idea of ​​a Jewish world conspiracy to come to power and become a dictator.
Independently of your motives, you may contribute to such a development. Particularly serious is your refusal to back up anything you claim.
What health departments have released such data? What data do you have that proves that climate change is a calculated deception? Give us references to this!

Erland,

It is fascinating that you mention Hitler and "unscrupulous power players" while defending the very system that currently employs their tactics on a global scale. You claim conspiracy theories are dangerous because they counteract critical thinking, yet you define "critical thinking" as the unconditional acceptance of whatever a government-funded institution tells you. That isn't thinking; that is compliance.

What health departments have released such data? What data do you have that proves that climate change is a calculated deception? Give us references to this!

If you haven't seen the skyrocketing reports of excess mortality and myocarditis in official government databases (like VAERS or the UK’s ONS data), it’s because you are choosing not to look. The data is there, buried under layers of "fact-checking" PR. The same goes for the climate narrative—a system of carbon taxes and digital IDs designed to track every breath you take while the elite fly private jets to their private islands.

Let's talk about those "power players" you are so worried about. Take a look at the Epstein files. Every name on those lists, every individual involved in that dark network of exploitation, is a staunch defender of your "globalist" establishment. You won't find a single "Flat Earther" or "Truth Seeker" in those circles. Why? Because the globe model is the foundation of their psychological control. It makes people feel like insignificant specks of dust in an infinite void, making them easier to manage, fear-monger, and enslave.

You claim my ideas are dangerous. I say your blind obedience is what’s truly lethal.

You defend a world where wars are manufactured for profit.

You defend a world where fake poverty is maintained while trillions disappear into "space" black budgets.

You defend a world where digital slavery is being built under the guise of "sustainability."

If waking people up to the fact that they are being lied to about the very ground they stand on is "dangerous," then I am happy to be a threat to your masters. You are so afraid of a "distorted logic," yet you live in a world where "men can be women" and "vaccines don't prevent transmission but are still mandatory." Your "science" has become a literal religion of contradictions.

You demand references, but you wouldn't believe them even if they were tattooed on your eyelids. You are a gatekeeper for a predatory theater, whether you realize it or not. You can stay in your "consistent" globe, shivering in fear of the next planned crisis. I’ll stay on the firm, unmoving Earth, exposing the strings of the puppets you call "experts."

History won't remember the ones who asked for "official references" from the liars; it will remember those who had the courage to see the rain before the flood began.

Erland,

It is fascinating that you mention Hitler and "unscrupulous power players" while defending the very system that currently employs their tactics on a global scale. You claim conspiracy theories are dangerous because they counteract critical thinking, yet you define "critical thinking" as the unconditional acceptance of whatever a government-funded institution tells you. That isn't thinking; that is compliance.

wise, you keep attributing opinions to me that I don’t hold. Please stop doing that! Of course, I don’t “define critical thinking as the unconditional acceptance of whatever a government-funded institution tells [me].” However, it is reasonable to assume that most government-funded research is fairly reliable, at least in reasonably democratic countries.

Governments do not have full control over researchers. Most researchers do research because they find it interesting and want to find out how things actually are. Yes, research fraud does occur, but when it does, it is usually individual researchers faking results in order to obtain more funding or to become famous and perhaps wealthy. It is not about government agencies ordering researchers to produce false results. If they tried to do something like that, they would not be able to get enough researchers to go along with it and keep quiet. Even if they managed to recruit dishonest researchers, it would be extremely difficult to keep such secrets over time. Sooner or later someone would talk, and there would always be plenty of others who, for honest or dishonest reasons (for example, wanting to expose or attack the agency), would gladly reveal the fraud. And if such fabricated research were published, critics would scrutinize it closely: what methods were used? Are they reliable? And so on. And other researchers would try to replicte it, and fail.

Of course, I am not claiming that researchers are infallible angels. More common than outright fraud is that researchers are influenced by bias, ideological blind spots, financial incentives, ambition, personal conflicts, desires for revenge, and simple incompetence. All of this can lead to poor-quality research, but that is something different from top-down, ordered scientific fraud. And the peer-review process is reasonably effective at exposing weak research, even if it is not perfect. Fairly free media can also play an important role in this.

If authorities want to influence research for political reasons, they tend to use more subtle methods, such as allocating funding primarily to research expected to produce desired results, or classifying or suppressing unwanted findings. However, such suppression is often exposed, for the reasons already mentioned. Individual researchers may also choose not to publish results that contradict what they hoped to find; this is known as the “desk drawer effect,” and it is a significant problem. Research is also influenced by what individual researchers choose to study in the first place. Both authorities and researchers are influenced by the general climate in society — the political, social, and economic situation — and this affects what topics are studied and how results are interpreted.

So, the situation is far from perfect. But what we can say with confidence is that gigantic, long-running conspiracies aimed at hiding the truth and spreading falsehoods about extremely large and decisive issues — conspiracies requiring the cooperation of thousands of people, such as making the entire world believe that the Earth is round when it is actually flat — cannot realistically exist. Such a conspiracy would be exposed fairly quickly, because it goes against human nature for something on that scale to be successfully carried out and kept secret for decades or centuries.

If you haven't seen the skyrocketing reports of excess mortality and myocarditis in official government databases (like VAERS or the UK’s ONS data), it’s because you are choosing not to look. The data is there, buried under layers of "fact-checking" PR.

Since it's hard for me to go through "layers of "fact-checking" PR", couldn't you, who know where to look more exactly, find these and give us the links.

The same goes for the climate narrative—a system of carbon taxes and digital IDs designed to track every breath you take while the elite fly private jets to their private islands.

Here, I partially agree.
The elite is trying to put the costs of climate change on ordinary people and make us feel guilty for taking the petrol car to work, for example, while they themselves, as you write, often travel by private jet. What I don't agree with is that the climate threat is fabricated, a conspiracy. Thousands of scientists have participated in the research on which the IPCC reports are based, and there is no doubt that climate change is a very serious threat to humanity. To address this, very powerful measures and societal changes are required, where governments do what needs to be done and, for example, ensure that electric cars become really cheap instead of blaming ordinary people who can only afford old, used petrol cars, and that public transport is properly expanded, and many other measures. This will not happen as long as today's elite are in power, but I believe that a socialist societal transformation is required (after which we will not have an elite who travels by private jet).

Let's talk about those "power players" you are so worried about. Take a look at the Epstein files. Every name on those lists, every individual involved in that dark network of exploitation, is a staunch defender of your "globalist" establishment. You won't find a single "Flat Earther" or "Truth Seeker" in those circles. Why? Because the globe model is the foundation of their psychological control. It makes people feel like insignificant specks of dust in an infinite void, making them easier to manage, fear-monger, and enslave.

Epstein was only interested in hanging out with the rich and powerful (except for all the girls he exploited and raped and let others exploit). You flat-earthers are still such a small and marginal group without much resources that you would have been of interest to Epstein. That doesn't mean the Earth is flat.

You defend a world where wars are manufactured for profit.

No, I am a socialist.

You defend a world where fake poverty is maintained while trillions disappear into "space" black budgets.

Fake poverty?? Poverty is real for billions of people. Ok, one might question whether we should invest billions of dollars in space travel and space exploration when there is so much poverty and so much needs to be invested in, for example, climate change.
One might question whether we should invest billions of dollars in space travel and space exploration when there is so much poverty and so much needs to be invested in, for example, climate change. But then I think it is better to first consider a serious redistribution of the earth's resources, and use the enormous fortunes of Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg and others to reduce poverty and invest in things that are needed.

You demand references, but you wouldn't believe them even if they were tattooed on your eyelids.

Try me! (Not tattooed on my eyelids though, that would be painful. ).

Erland,

Your response is a textbook example of "Institutional Stockholm Syndrome." You admit the system is flawed, you admit researchers have biases, and you even admit the elite are hypocritical—yet you refuse to follow those breadcrumbs to their logical conclusion. You are trying to negotiate with a lion while your head is already in its mouth.

However, it is reasonable to assume that most government-funded research is fairly reliable... Governments do not have full control over researchers.

This is a dangerously naive view of how modern "Science™" operates. You don't need a dictator standing over every scientist with a gun to control the output. You control the funding, the peer-review journals, and the university chair positions.

If a researcher produces a study that threatens a multi-billion dollar industry (like Big Pharma or the Space Industry), they don't get "ordered" to lie; they simply lose their grant, their lab is closed, and they are labeled "unreliable" by the very peer-review process you worship. This is Compartmentalization. A scientist working on a specific lens for a satellite doesn't need to know the whole "Space" narrative is a hoax; he just needs to do his job to get his paycheck. The "thousands of people" you claim would have to be in on the conspiracy are actually just thousands of people following orders, protecting their careers, and looking at a very small piece of a puzzle they are never allowed to see in its entirety.

Sooner or later someone would talk, and there would always be plenty of others who... would gladly reveal the fraud.

They ARE talking, Erland.
People have been talking for decades. But when they do, people like you call them "trolls," "conspiracy theorists," or "marginalized groups." You demand a whistleblower, but when a high-ranking official or a pilot or an engineer speaks up, you ignore them because they aren't appearing on the BBC or CNN. You are waiting for the system to indict itself on the evening news. That will never happen. The "desk drawer effect" you mentioned isn't a glitch; it's the feature of the system.

I believe that a socialist societal transformation is required... What I don't agree with is that the climate threat is fabricated.

You call yourself a socialist, yet you support the ultimate tool of capitalist enslavement: the Climate Narrative. The IPCC is not a scientific body; it is a political one. By moving the "threat" to the very air we breathe (CO2), the elite have found a way to tax existence itself.

You want to redistribute the wealth of Musk and Bezos? They are the ones selling you the Globe! Musk’s entire fortune is built on government subsidies for "Space" and "Electric Cars" that rely on the same "threat" you believe in. You think a "socialist transformation" will fix this? Every socialist regime in history has been even more obsessed with state-mandated "Science" and censorship than the systems they replaced. You aren't fighting the elite; you are begging them to be "nicer" managers of your prison.

Poverty is real for billions of people. Ok, one might question whether we should invest billions of dollars in space travel...

"One might question"? It is the only question. NASA's official budget is over $70 million per day. That is money taken from the working class to produce CGI images and "ISS" theater. If you were a true socialist, you would be outraged that trillions have been laundered through "Space" black budgets while people starve.

But you can't let go of the Globe because it is your secular religion. It gives you the "Big Bang" and "Evolution" as your origin story, replacing a designed, purposeful world with a chaotic accident. This is the Psychological Foundation of Control. If you are an accident on a speck of dust, you have no inherent rights, no divine purpose, and you are easily managed by "experts."

Try me! (Not tattooed on my eyelids though...).

Fine. Let’s move past the "sociological" debate and look at the physical "inconvenient truths" you choose to ignore:

The Vacuum-Pressure Interface: You still haven't explained how 14.7 psi of pressure exists next to a $10^{-17}$ torr vacuum without a physical container. This violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. You can't have a "gradient" that transitions to nothing in an open system.




The Mechanical Gyroscope: If the Earth were a ball rotating at 1,000 mph and orbiting at 67,000 mph, a high-precision mechanical gyroscope would detect that movement instantly. They don't. Pilots "rig for level flight" and never account for the curvature of a ball. If they did, they would have to constantly nose-down to avoid flying off into space.




The Antarctic Treaty: You worry about "power players," yet you ignore the only treaty that every "competing" nation (USA, Russia, China, Iran) follows perfectly. You cannot independently explore Antarctica. Why? Because it isn't a continent at the "bottom" of a ball; it is the rim of our world.




Erland, you are a socialist who trusts the most powerful corporate-military industrial complex in history to tell you where you live. You are a "rebel" who accepts the government's map without question.

You don't need a socialist transformation; you need a cognitive one. Stop looking for truth in the "funded" reports and start looking at the horizon with your own eyes. The world is not a socialist utopia or a spinning ball; it is a designed, stationary plane, and you are being lied to so that you never realize how important you actually are.

The "thousands of scientists" are just as trapped in the box as you are. The difference is, some of us have looked outside.

Erland,

Your response is a textbook example of "Institutional Stockholm Syndrome." You admit the system is flawed, you admit researchers have biases, and you even admit the elite are hypocritical—yet you refuse to follow those breadcrumbs to their logical conclusion. You are trying to negotiate with a lion while your head is already in its mouth.

Quote from: Erland on February 09, 2026, 08:56:23 AM

However, it is reasonable to assume that most government-funded research is fairly reliable... Governments do not have full control over researchers.

This is a dangerously naive view of how modern "Science™" operates. You don't need a dictator standing over every scientist with a gun to control the output. You control the funding, the peer-review journals, and the university chair positions.

If a researcher produces a study that threatens a multi-billion dollar industry (like Big Pharma or the Space Industry), they don't get "ordered" to lie; they simply lose their grant, their lab is closed, and they are labeled "unreliable" by the very peer-review process you worship. This is Compartmentalization. A scientist working on a specific lens for a satellite doesn't need to know the whole "Space" narrative is a hoax; he just needs to do his job to get his paycheck. The "thousands of people" you claim would have to be in on the conspiracy are actually just thousands of people following orders, protecting their careers, and looking at a very small piece of a puzzle they are never allowed to see in its entirety.

Quote from: Erland on February 09, 2026, 08:56:23 AM

Sooner or later someone would talk, and there would always be plenty of others who... would gladly reveal the fraud.

They ARE talking, Erland.
People have been talking for decades. But when they do, people like you call them "trolls," "conspiracy theorists," or "marginalized groups." You demand a whistleblower, but when a high-ranking official or a pilot or an engineer speaks up, you ignore them because they aren't appearing on the BBC or CNN. You are waiting for the system to indict itself on the evening news. That will never happen. The "desk drawer effect" you mentioned isn't a glitch; it's the feature of the system.

There are still a lot of people on the uppermost level that must know the truth, and be active parts of the conspiracy. In the flat Earth case, we must assume that the top executives of governement agencies and editors and many peer-reviwers of many scientific journals must know that the Earth is flat and actively spread the falsity that it is a globe. Since heads of governement agencies are appointed by governements, and governements change after lost elections, we must also assume that the leading representatives of all major poitical parties in most democrstic countries knowingly participate in the conspiracy. And yet NOTHING ABOUT THIS HAS EVER LEAKED! No person with power has ever felt remorse and said: "I am/was part of the conspiracy". Noone has published documents proving that e.g. Bill Clinton, or Ronald Reagan, or Margaret Thatcher, or Angela Merkel, or Olof Palme did participate in the Conspiracy. In particular, no Flat Earther has ever seen such a document.
Do you not see how absurd this is?
How many persons are knowingly participating in this conspiracy, according you? And how can they stop all significant leaks?

There are still a lot of people on the uppermost level that must know the truth, and be active parts of the conspiracy. In the flat Earth case, we must assume that the top executives of governement agencies and editors and many peer-reviwers of many scientific journals must know that the Earth is flat and actively spread the falsity that it is a globe. Since heads of governement agencies are appointed by governements, and governements change after lost elections, we must also assume that the leading representatives of all major poitical parties in most democrstic countries knowingly participate in the conspiracy. And yet NOTHING ABOUT THIS HAS EVER LEAKED! No person with power has ever felt remorse and said: "I am/was part of the conspiracy". Noone has published documents proving that e.g. Bill Clinton, or Ronald Reagan, or Margaret Thatcher, or Angela Merkel, or Olof Palme did participate in the Conspiracy. In particular, no Flat Earther has ever seen such a document. Do you not see how absurd this is? How many persons are knowingly participating in this conspiracy, according you? And how can they stop all significant leaks?

Erland,

Your argument hinges on a fundamental misunderstanding of how power is sustained. You assume that "government change" means "system change." In reality, the names of the leaders change, but the Permanent Bureaucracy—the intelligence agencies, the financial institutions, and the military-industrial complex—remains untouched by elections. A President or a Prime Minister is a temporary tenant; the "Space Industry" and its multi-billion dollar budget is the landlord.

You ask why a high-ranking politician hasn't "felt remorse" and confessed. Think about the stakes. Confessing to a fraud of this magnitude doesn't just make you a whistleblower; it makes you a target for treason, it collapses the credibility of your nation’s entire scientific and educational infrastructure, and it terminates the flow of billions of dollars. People with that much power don't "leak" because they are the primary beneficiaries of the secret. They are bound by National Security Oaths and, more importantly, by the mutual destruction that would follow if the curtain were pulled back.

As for documents, you are looking for a paper that says "The Earth is Flat - Top Secret." That’s not how it works. The "proof" is found in the Accountability Gaps: the missing trillions from Pentagon budgets, the CGI artifacts in NASA’s official footage, and the restricted flight paths over Antarctica (The Antarctic Treaty). These are the "documents" written in plain sight, yet you ignore them because you want a signed confession from Margaret Thatcher.

You ask how many people are in on it. The answer is: far fewer than you think. Through Compartmentalization, you only need a handful of people at the top to manage the data and the imagery. Everyone else—the rocket engineers, the satellite technicians, the pilots—is simply doing their job based on the data they are fed. They aren't "lying"; they are working within a predefined box. The "absurdity" isn't the conspiracy, Erland; the absurdity is believing that a system that lies to you about war, finance, and health would suddenly be 100% honest about the very shape of your world.

"One might question"? It is the only question. NASA's official budget is over $70 million per day. That is money taken from the working class to produce CGI images and "ISS" theater. If you were a true socialist, you would be outraged that trillions have been laundered through "Space" black budgets while people starve.

I still think it's more important to first equalize the huge wealth gaps that exist in the world. Once that's done, we can discuss how big NASA's budget should be.

Quote from: Erland on February 09, 2026, 12:10:36 PM

Try me! (Not tattooed on my eyelids though...).

Fine. Let’s move past the "sociological" debate and look at the physical "inconvenient truths" you choose to ignore:

The Vacuum-Pressure Interface: You still haven't explained how 14.7 psi of pressure exists next to a $10^{-17}$ torr vacuum without a physical container. This violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. You can't have a "gradient" that transitions to nothing in an open system.

I gave a video in an earlier post that explains this very well. You ignored that. But OK, here it is again:


The Mechanical Gyroscope: If the Earth were a ball rotating at 1,000 mph and orbiting at 67,000 mph, a high-precision mechanical gyroscope would detect that movement instantly. They don't. Pilots "rig for level flight" and never account for the curvature of a ball. If they did, they would have to constantly nose-down to avoid flying off into space.[/quote]
Of course aviation industry has solved the problem with gyros and the curvature iof the Earth. Here's another video. Look from 9:00:

And of course, a gyro moves with the plane it's in which partially moves with the Earth, so those 1000 mph ad 67000 mph are irrelevant. 

The Antarctic Treaty: You worry about "power players," yet you ignore the only treaty that every "competing" nation (USA, Russia, China, Iran) follows perfectly. You cannot independently explore Antarctica. Why? Because it isn't a continent at the "bottom" of a ball; it is the rim of our world.

Yeah, yeah, and it is hevaily guarded by armed soldiers. Yet nobody has ever photographed an armed soldier in the Antarctica.

And in The Final Experiment, the people involved went to the Antarctica without being stopped. They saw no soldiers, and the saw the 24-hour sun there going around the sky, contradicting the most common Flat Earth model.


The Antarctic Treaty was quite smart by the different countries. Given the harsh conditions and the huge costs exploitation of the Anartctica would mean, they benefitted from the treaty prohibiting other countries from exploiting it when they themsarlves couldn't!

Erland,

You are using "socialism" as a shield to ignore the grandest theft in human history, and you are using YouTube links as a substitute for actual physics. Let’s dismantle your response line by line:

I still think it's more important to first equalize the huge wealth gaps that exist in the world. Once that's done, we can discuss how big NASA's budget should be.

Simply saying we should "wait" doesn't magically stop the theft of $70 million per day. You claim to care about the wealth gap, yet you defend a black-budget agency that vacuums trillions from the working class to produce CGI. You cannot be a "socialist" and a "NASA apologist" at the same time. You are supporting the very elites who create the gap you claim to hate.

I gave a video in an earlier post that explains this very well. You ignored that. But OK, here it is again:

Posting a video of a guy talking doesn't magically rewrite the Second Law of Thermodynamics. A "gradient" in an open system still requires a container to exist next to a vacuum. Without a physical barrier, the high-pressure gas expands into the infinite void instantly. No cartoon "gravity" can hold gas molecules from filling a vacuum. If you have a physical experiment—not a video—where gas maintains a 14.7 psi pressure next to a vacuum without a container, show it. You can't.

Of course aviation industry has solved the problem with gyros and the curvature iof the Earth. Here's another video. Look from 9:00:

An "explanation" in a video doesn't magically change the mechanical reality of a gyroscope. A gyroscope maintains its orientation in space (rigidity in space). If the Earth curved beneath it, the gyro would stay level while the Earth tilted away. Pilots don't "solve" the problem; they ignore the curve because the curve doesn't exist. They fly over a flat, stationary plane.

And of course, a gyro moves with the plane it's in which partially moves with the Earth, so those 1000 mph ad 67000 mph are irrelevant.

This is scientific illiteracy. If the Earth is spinning and orbiting, those are vector accelerations. A high-precision gyro is designed to detect exactly those movements. To say they are "irrelevant" is to admit your model can't be measured by the very instruments designed to measure it.

Yeah, yeah, and it is hevaily guarded by armed soldiers. Yet nobody has ever photographed an armed soldier in the Antarctica.

You don't need a soldier in every square inch when you have the Antarctic Treaty and 24/7 radar surveillance. Try to sail a private boat below the 60th parallel without "permits" and see how long it takes for a military vessel to intercept you. The lack of "vacation photos" of soldiers doesn't magically mean the restriction isn't real.

And in The Final Experiment, the people involved went to the Antarctica without being stopped. They saw no soldiers, and the saw the 24-hour sun there going around the sky...

"The Final Experiment" is a controlled, high-budget production, not independent exploration. Every "tour" to Antarctica is guided, restricted, and follows pre-approved paths. As for the "24-hour sun," it is easily explained by the optics of the Firmament and the way light reflects inside a dome. It doesn't prove a ball; it proves you don't understand refraction.

The Antarctic Treaty was quite smart by the different countries. Given the harsh conditions... they benefitted from the treaty prohibiting other countries from exploiting it...

The "harsh conditions" excuse is the ultimate God-of-the-Gaps for your model. These nations go to war over a few acres of desert with oil, yet they all "smartly" agree to never touch the massive resources of an entire "continent"? It’s not about "exploitation"; it’s about protection of the boundary.

You are trying to bury the reality of our world under a pile of YouTube links and "socialist" distractions. It won't work. The stationary plane is observable; your spinning ball is only visible in movies.

Quote from: Erland on February 10, 2026, 05:41:13 PM

There are still a lot of people on the uppermost level that must know the truth, and be active parts of the conspiracy. In the flat Earth case, we must assume that the top executives of governement agencies and editors and many peer-reviwers of many scientific journals must know that the Earth is flat and actively spread the falsity that it is a globe. Since heads of governement agencies are appointed by governements, and governements change after lost elections, we must also assume that the leading representatives of all major poitical parties in most democrstic countries knowingly participate in the conspiracy. And yet NOTHING ABOUT THIS HAS EVER LEAKED! No person with power has ever felt remorse and said: "I am/was part of the conspiracy". Noone has published documents proving that e.g. Bill Clinton, or Ronald Reagan, or Margaret Thatcher, or Angela Merkel, or Olof Palme did participate in the Conspiracy. In particular, no Flat Earther has ever seen such a document. Do you not see how absurd this is? How many persons are knowingly participating in this conspiracy, according you? And how can they stop all significant leaks?

Erland,

Your argument hinges on a fundamental misunderstanding of how power is sustained. You assume that "government change" means "system change." In reality, the names of the leaders change, but the Permanent Bureaucracy—the intelligence agencies, the financial institutions, and the military-industrial complex—remains untouched by elections. A President or a Prime Minister is a temporary tenant; the "Space Industry" and its multi-billion dollar budget is the landlord.

You ask why a high-ranking politician hasn't "felt remorse" and confessed. Think about the stakes. Confessing to a fraud of this magnitude doesn't just make you a whistleblower; it makes you a target for treason, it collapses the credibility of your nation’s entire scientific and educational infrastructure, and it terminates the flow of billions of dollars. People with that much power don't "leak" because they are the primary beneficiaries of the secret. They are bound by National Security Oaths and, more importantly, by the mutual destruction that would follow if the curtain were pulled back.

As for documents, you are looking for a paper that says "The Earth is Flat - Top Secret." That’s not how it works. The "proof" is found in the Accountability Gaps: the missing trillions from Pentagon budgets, the CGI artifacts in NASA’s official footage, and the restricted flight paths over Antarctica (The Antarctic Treaty). These are the "documents" written in plain sight, yet you ignore them because you want a signed confession from Margaret Thatcher.

You ask how many people are in on it. The answer is: far fewer than you think. Through Compartmentalization, you only need a handful of people at the top to manage the data and the imagery. Everyone else—the rocket engineers, the satellite technicians, the pilots—is simply doing their job based on the data they are fed. They aren't "lying"; they are working within a predefined box. The "absurdity" isn't the conspiracy, Erland; the absurdity is believing that a system that lies to you about war, finance, and health would suddenly be 100% honest about the very shape of your world.

How many is "a handful"? Give me a number!
And how are people recruited to this handful? Sometime they have to be told: "You have learned that the Earth is a globe, but actually, it is flat." And you seriously claim that noone that ever got this information became a whistleblower? The conspirators must sometimes be mistaken about the character of their recruits. This kind of secrets always leak, sooner or later.
There are examples when big organizations tried to conceal truth, such as when Exxon's own research showed clear evidence of global warming, but they chose to deny this, and when tobacco companies denied that smoking was harmful. In both cases, the truth eventually came out. Even in cases where people face death threats, they sometimes reveal the truth anyway, even if it implicates themselves (for example, defectors from the Sicilian Mafia,  such as Tommaso Buscetta).

So, no, a conspiracy to hide the the true shape of the Earth, going on for centuries, stretching over governement agencies in several countries, can not work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExxonMobil_climate_change_denial
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_industry_playbook
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommaso_Buscetta

Erland,



You are trying to compare a global geopolitical structure to a corporate PR scandal. It is embarrassing. You ask for a "number" because you cannot grasp the technicality of systemic control. Let's break down your naivety point by point:

How many is "a handful"? Give me a number!

Numbers are irrelevant when you have compartmentalization. Does a janitor at the Pentagon know the nuclear launch codes? No. Does the engineer building a NASA thruster need to know the Earth is flat? No. He just builds a thruster that works in a vacuum chamber. You only need fewer than 50 people at the strategic data-processing level to keep the narrative alive.

And how are people recruited to this handful?

They aren't "recruited" via a job fair, Erland. They are groomed through bloodlines, secret societies, and intelligence agency careers where loyalty is tested over decades.

Sometime they have to be told: "You have learned that the Earth is a globe, but actually, it is flat."

This is your cartoonish view of power. No one is "told" the secret as a surprise. They discover it as they rise through the ranks of classified operations. By the time they reach the top, they are already so complicit in other crimes that they cannot speak.

And you seriously claim that noone that ever got this information became a whistleblower?

They HAVE become whistleblowers. From high-ranking pilots to former NASA insiders, people have spoken out for decades. You just label them "crazy" or "conspiracy theorists" and ignore them. You are the filter that stops the leak from reaching your own brain.

The conspirators must sometimes be mistaken about the character of their recruits.

That’s what National Security Oaths and 24/7 surveillance are for. In a world of digital footprints, "character mistakes" are corrected before they can reach a microphone.

This kind of secrets always leak, sooner or later.

It has leaked. It’s leaking right now. Why do you think the Flat Earth movement is growing globally? The leak is the Black Swan photo. The leak is the amateur high-altitude balloons. The leak is the lack of real photos of Earth. You are staring at the leak and calling it "dry."

There are examples when big organizations tried to conceal truth, such as when Exxon's own research showed clear evidence of global warming...

You just proved my point. Exxon hid it for decades. Tobacco companies hid it for 50 years. They only "came out" when the evidence was so overwhelming that they had to pivot to a new lie.

In both cases, the truth eventually came out.

Yes, and the truth about the Stationary Plane is coming out now. You are simply living in the "denial phase" where Exxon was in the 1970s.

Even in cases where people face death threats, they sometimes reveal the truth anyway (e.g., Tommaso Buscetta).

Buscetta talked about a local criminal organization. We are talking about the foundational reality of human existence. If you admit the Earth is flat, you admit that every government, every university, and every "space" agency is a fraud. The stakes are 1,000,000 times higher than a Mafia trial.

So, no, a conspiracy to hide the the true shape of the Earth... can not work.

It works as long as people like you refuse to look at the physical evidence. It doesn't require "millions" of people; it requires one massive Educational Indoctrination system that you have clearly graduated from with honors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExxonMobil_climate_change_denial

Wikipedia links are not rebuttals. Using a site that is openly edited and controlled by the same establishment to "prove" the establishment doesn't lie is the peak of circular reasoning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_industry_playbook

Again, you are citing examples of successful, long-term conspiracies as if they prove conspiracies are impossible. Do you not see the cognitive breakdown in your own logic?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommaso_Buscetta

Comparing a mob snitch to the Second Law of Thermodynamics is why you are losing this debate. People lie; physical laws don't.

give me a number!

The number is irrelevant. The Technical Reality is what matters. You still haven't explained the vacuum-pressure interface. You still haven't shown me a curved horizon. You still haven't addressed the gyro rigidity.



Erland,

You are obsessing over the "human" element because you are terrified of the physical element. It doesn't matter how many people are lying; what matters is that the Globe is a thermodynamic and optical impossibility.



Stop worrying about Margaret Thatcher's remorse and start worrying about why you believe in a spinning ball that violates every law of physics you've ever tested.

Quote from: Erland on February 11, 2026, 04:14:59 PM

How many is "a handful"? Give me a number!

Numbers are irrelevant when you have compartmentalization. Does a janitor at the Pentagon know the nuclear launch codes? No. Does the engineer building a NASA thruster need to know the Earth is flat? No. He just builds a thruster that works in a vacuum chamber. You only need fewer than 50 people at the strategic data-processing level to keep the narrative alive.

Quote from: Erland

And how are people recruited to this handful?

They aren't "recruited" via a job fair, Erland. They are groomed through bloodlines, secret societies, and intelligence agency careers where loyalty is tested over decades.

So, fewer than 50 people who make up a super-secret Masonic society have secretly ruled the entire world for centuries and have managed to convince the entire world that the Earth is a sphere even though it is flat. And that without any underling ever being able to expose them and their lies?

Doesn't an airline pilots flying intenational flights ever discover that there is something wrong with the Globe Model? The photograhers faking photos must know they are fake? Mustn't actors participating in faked films about weightlessness at space stations know it is fake? Don't rocket scientists ever discover the dome? And how can these "freemasons" rule the entire world, all it's governements, all its major multinational corporations, without ever being dethronized?

And not even a small group of 50 people could be upheld on these conditions. These people must all be extremely power hungry and ruthless enough to turn on each other. Some of those who feel left out would then be tempted to frame some the others, and a person that is already exposed as a criminal could revenge by exposing the lie of the shape of the Earth.

Quote from: Erland

Sometime they have to be told: "You have learned that the Earth is a globe, but actually, it is flat."

This is your cartoonish view of power. No one is "told" the secret as a surprise. They discover it as they rise through the ranks of classified operations. By the time they reach the top, they are already so complicit in other crimes that they cannot speak.

"Grooming" will also fail sometimes. What crimes will a "groomed" have committed before (s)he discovers the conspiracy and that the Earth is flat? You can't even make up a somewhat detailed fictional story about this that wouldn't be completely laughable.

Quote from: Erland

And you seriously claim that noone that ever got this information became a whistleblower?

They HAVE become whistleblowers. From high-ranking pilots to former NASA insiders, people have spoken out for decades. You just label them "crazy" or "conspiracy theorists" and ignore them. You are the filter that stops the leak from reaching your own brain.

Who are these whistleblowers? What's their names? What have they revealed? Names of any of the 50? Plans of deception?

Quote from: Erland

The conspirators must sometimes be mistaken about the character of their recruits.

That’s what National Security Oaths and 24/7 surveillance are for. In a world of digital footprints, "character mistakes" are corrected before they can reach a microphone.

Even if we assume that something like that would be possible today (which is extremely dubitable), such things didn't exist centuries ago, when the conspiracy was already running.

Quote from: Erland

This kind of secrets always leak, sooner or later.

It has leaked. It’s leaking right now. Why do you think the Flat Earth movement is growing globally? The leak is the Black Swan photo. The leak is the amateur high-altitude balloons. The leak is the lack of real photos of Earth. You are staring at the leak and calling it "dry."

So a refracted image is proof a world conspiracy? No, I mean real leaks, that reveal something, for example: who are these (less than) 50 people? Has any of these "whistleblowers revealed even one of them? Can YOU name even one of them?

Quote from: Erland

Even in cases where people face death threats, they sometimes reveal the truth anyway (e.g., Tommaso Buscetta).

Buscetta talked about a local criminal organization. We are talking about the foundational reality of human existence. If you admit the Earth is flat, you admit that every government, every university, and every "space" agency is a fraud. The stakes are 1,000,000 times higher than a Mafia trial.

And imagine what a scope that would have been for an ambitious journalist! And if there are less than 50 people in the conspiracy, all others are innocent and least don't risk life or prison if it is revealed.

Quote from: Erland

So, no, a conspiracy to hide the the true shape of the Earth... can not work.

It works as long as people like you refuse to look at the physical evidence. It doesn't require "millions" of people; it requires one massive Educational Indoctrination system that you have clearly graduated from with honors.

A massive global Educatonal Indoctrination system ruled by less than 50 people that has fooled the entire world. Sure, buddy!

Erland,



You are watching too many movies. You think a conspiracy requires a secret clubhouse where 50 people sit around a table in robes. That’s not how modern power works. It’s managed through Need-to-Know protocols and institutional inertia.

Doesn't an airline pilots flying intenational flights ever discover that there is something wrong with the Globe Model?

They follow their instruments, Erland. And their instruments are programmed for a spherical coordinate system on a level plane. A pilot doesn't "discover" the shape of the Earth; he follows a flight plan provided by a computer. If the plane stays level and the destination appears, he doesn't ask questions. Most people just want to keep their high-paying jobs, not become martyrs for a truth you would just mock anyway.

And imagine what a scope that would have been for an ambitious journalist!

Who owns the newspapers, Erland? You talk about "ambitious journalists" as if they don't have editors, corporate owners, and intelligence agency "consultants" looking over their shoulders. Look at what happened to Julian Assange for just leaking emails. Now imagine someone trying to leak the fact that the entire foundation of modern cosmology is a lie. They wouldn't get a Pulitzer; they would get "erased" or institutionalized.

Who are these whistleblowers? What's their names?

I could give you a list of names—from pilots like Cassidy Vance to former NASA illustrators—but you’ve already pre-programmed your brain to reject them. You call them "crazy" before you even hear them. That is how the system maintains itself: not by killing everyone, but by making the truth sound socially unacceptable.

And not even a small group of 50 people could be upheld... Some of those who feel left out would then be tempted to frame some the others

Blackmail is a powerful glue, Erland. At that level of power, everyone has "files" on everyone else. It’s called Mutually Assured Destruction. You don't turn on the group because the group has the evidence to destroy you. This isn't a "fictional story"; it's the standard operating procedure for intelligence agencies and high-level cartels.

A massive global Educatonal Indoctrination system ruled by less than 50 people that has fooled the entire world.

It doesn't take 50 people to fool the world; it takes 50 people to control the curriculum. Once you control the textbooks, the "millions" of teachers and professors do the work for you for free. They aren't in on the conspiracy; they are the victims of it. They are just repeating what they were told, just like you are.



The "Black Swan" isn't just a photo, Erland. It’s the realization that physical observation overrides institutional authority. You are clinging to the authority because the alternative—that your "global" education was a lie—is too much for your ego to handle.



Stop looking for a "Bond Villain" and start looking at the Compartmentalized Reality right in front of your face.

The Earth was mapped in its entirety, all of its lands and waters were found and mapped, to its boundaries, circling around it all, before the elite scum stole the best and most accurate and complete maps, of the flat Earth, showing all lands, all continents, all waters, and the circular boundary around it all, which was the real Earth, mapped..

Being that there’s no proof left of those complete Earth maps, with a circular boundary around it all, is still indicated as true, in other maps, of the time, of smaller areas, on Earth, and some with partial circles, along its bottom or top or on a side of the maps…

Why would these maps, have partial circles at their edges, so many maps have partial circles on their edges, one edge, usually, a circle they knew was the boundary of Earth, they put in their maps, to be known about as the boundary of Earth, they removed, as a ball Earth story cannot have a boundary, yet they hadn’t figured out how to replace that entire boundary of Earth, within a ball Earth map, because it was a big problem that took years to ‘discover is there, on our very Earth’! 

The most incredible discovery that was ever made, in all human history, beyond any others, beyond Columbus and Cook and all other ‘explorers’ of lands and waters on Earth!

While they were supposedly ‘discovering new lands’, and even ‘far away isolated lands’, ‘tiny islands in the oceans, remote from all other land, hundreds or thousands of miles out in the oceans!

Explored and ‘discovered’ lands and waters over the entire Earth, tiny remote islands in the greatest oceans on Earth, far from any continents of Earth, after all the continents had been long known about and everything from tiny islands to great continents were known and mapped on Earth, centuries ago, at very least, for a fact.

You’re really going to believe these idiots make up such a ridiculous and far fetched story,  it’s a complete joke

Claiming they have discovered a gigantic land mass that nobody had ever seen or knew about before, which they found was there!

Sounds like a story, and it is a story!

Erland

You are watching too many movies. You think a conspiracy requires a secret clubhouse where 50 people sit around a table in robes. That’s not how modern power works. It’s managed through Need-to-Know protocols and institutional inertia.

What does this mean, in practice? Can you explain this is in some detail? How do these 50 people manage these "Need-to-Know protocols"? It almost seems that you mean that these 50 people are superfluous, that the entire system could go on without them. If not, what are they needed for? Why do they need to reproduce themselves over the centuries? And who are they? What positions do they hold? Do they have members in several countries, such as the U.S, China, and Russia (and before in the Soviet Union)? If, so how do they cooperate in conflict with their countries interests (or at least the interests of the elites of the countries), since these countries are often in conflict with each other? And can you name even one of them?

What does this mean, in practice? Can you explain this is in some detail? How do these 50 people manage these "Need-to-Know protocols"?

Practice is not a meeting; practice is an Architecture.



You are still looking for a "Who," Erland. You want names to put on a list. But the system doesn't rely on the identity of the individual; it relies on the integrity of the Compartment.



In practice, a "Need-to-Know" protocol means that the engineer at NASA doesn't need to know the Earth is a plane to build a lens. The pilot doesn't need to know the Earth is stationary to follow a flight path calculated by a computer. They are all "experts" in their own tiny cage, unaware that their cage is part of a much larger zoo.



How do they manage it? They don't "manage" the protocols manually; the Institutional Inertia does it for them. If you are a scientist and you find a "glitch" in the globe model, you don't call a secret society. You keep your mouth shut because your funding, your career, and your social status depend on the "Globe" being the truth. The system self-polices.

Why do they need to reproduce themselves over the centuries? And who are they?

They are the Custodians of the Narrative. They aren't "needed" to run the world; they are needed to gatekeep the tech and the map. They reproduce because the Knowledge of the Simulation is the ultimate power. If the masses knew the true nature of the Firmament and the Energy Grid, the current economic and spiritual control structures would evaporate in an hour.

Do they have members in several countries, such as the U.S, China, and Russia... how do they cooperate in conflict with their countries interests?

This is where you fall for the theater. You think the conflict between the U.S., Russia, and China is real at the Top Tier. It isn't. Conflict is a tool for resource management and population control.



Notice how these countries "hate" each other, yet they all agree on the Antarctic Treaty. They all agree on the Shape of the Earth. They all agree on the Space Narrative. Why? Because the "Conflict" is for the residents of the simulation. At the Custodian level, there is only one interest: Maintaining the Simulation. A Russian "elite" and a U.S. "elite" serve the same Grid. The "flags" are just uniforms for the field hands.

And can you name even one of them?

If I gave you a name, you would look up their Wikipedia page and see a "Philanthropist" or a "Statesman." You are looking for a villain in a movie; I am showing you the Engineers of your Reality. Names are irrelevant when the office they hold is what carries the power.



The 50 people are not "superfluous"; they are the ones who hold the Keys to the Admin Panel. You don't see them because you are too busy watching the actors they hired to play "Leaders" on your TV.



Stop looking for the secret clubhouse, Erland. Look at the Antarctic Treaty. Look at the Flight Routes. Look at the Vacuum of Space vs. Thermodynamics.



The Evidence is not in a name; it is in the Glitch.

Quote from: Erland

What does this mean, in practice? Can you explain this is in some detail? How do these 50 people manage these "Need-to-Know protocols"?

Practice is not a meeting; practice is an Architecture.



You are still looking for a "Who," Erland. You want names to put on a list. But the system doesn't rely on the identity of the individual; it relies on the integrity of the Compartment.

In practice, a "Need-to-Know" protocol means that the engineer at NASA doesn't need to know the Earth is a plane to build a lens. The pilot doesn't need to know the Earth is stationary to follow a flight path calculated by a computer. They are all "experts" in their own tiny cage, unaware that their cage is part of a much larger zoo.

But wouldn't pilots discover ny just looking out through the window that thr globe model is wrong?
Why do flights from Buenos Aires to Santiago take about the same time (ca 2.5 h) as flights from Atlanta to Dallas, when the former distance is about twice as far as the latter on your Flat Earth map?

https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/ARG1282
https://www.flightaware.com/live/findflight/KATL/KDFW

You think pilots never would discover anomalies like this, or that no of them are brave enough to reveal the truth when they discover it? There is a handful of Flat Earthers, yes, but as far as I know, noone of them is or was a pilot or a NASA engineer or anything like that.

How do they manage it? They don't "manage" the protocols manually; the Institutional Inertia does it for them. If you are a scientist and you find a "glitch" in the globe model, you don't call a secret society. You keep your mouth shut because your funding, your career, and your social status depend on the "Globe" being the truth. The system self-polices.

Isn't anyone of all these thousands or even millions of scientists brave enough? I never heard of a Flat Earther being a real scientist.

Quote from: Erland

Why do they need to reproduce themselves over the centuries? And who are they?

They are the Custodians of the Narrative. They aren't "needed" to run the world; they are needed to gatekeep the tech and the map. They reproduce because the Knowledge of the Simulation is the ultimate power. If the masses knew the true nature of the Firmament and the Energy Grid, the current economic and spiritual control structures would evaporate in an hour.

Quote from: Erland

Do they have members in several countries, such as the U.S, China, and Russia... how do they cooperate in conflict with their countries interests?

This is where you fall for the theater. You think the conflict between the U.S., Russia, and China is real at the Top Tier. It isn't. Conflict is a tool for resource management and population control.



Notice how these countries "hate" each other, yet they all agree on the Antarctic Treaty. They all agree on the Shape of the Earth. They all agree on the Space Narrative. Why? Because the "Conflict" is for the residents of the simulation. At the Custodian level, there is only one interest: Maintaining the Simulation. A Russian "elite" and a U.S. "elite" serve the same Grid. The "flags" are just uniforms for the field hands.

So, that they could agree over a few things proves that they are unknowgly "gatekeeped" by less than 50 united people spread in several countries?

Quote from: Erland

And can you name even one of them?

If I gave you a name, you would look up their Wikipedia page and see a "Philanthropist" or a "Statesman." You are looking for a villain in a movie; I am showing you the Engineers of your Reality. Names are irrelevant when the office they hold is what carries the power.

That’s an evasion. Can you name any of them or not?

The 50 people are not "superfluous"; they are the ones who hold the Keys to the Admin Panel. You don't see them because you are too busy watching the actors they hired to play "Leaders" on your TV.

But you see them, I presume. So, give us the names!

wise, one more question about the conspiracy. It might have bee addressed before, but then, please repeat the answer:

What's conspiratiors motive? Why do they go to such great lengths to make people believe the Earth is round when it is flat?

But wouldn't pilots discover ny just looking out through the window that thr globe model is wrong?

They don't discover it because they are trained to trust the Artificial Horizon on their dashboard more than their own eyes. When a pilot looks out the window, they see a flat horizon at eye level—exactly what we say. But they've been told it's an "illusion," so they ignore reality to keep their license.

Why do flights from Buenos Aires to Santiago take about the same time... when the distance is twice as far as on your Flat Earth map?

You are relying on commercial flight times, which are managed by the same entities that provide the map. You ignore the Jet Stream vectors and the fact that flight paths in the Southern Hemisphere are the most "glitched" data in aviation. You trust a travel website over physics.

You think pilots never would discover anomalies like this, or that no of them are brave enough to reveal the truth?

Many have. Search for "Pilot Flat Earth" and you'll find plenty of whistleblowers. But you won't find them on CNN. You've been conditioned to think "brave" means "someone who agrees with my textbook."

noone of them is or was a pilot or a NASA engineer

Total falsehood. Look up Auguste Piccard, the first man in the stratosphere, who described the Earth as a "flat disk with upturned edges." Or look at the CIA and Army documents that explicitly state they use a "Flat, non-rotating Earth model" for their calculations. They use it; they just don't tell you.

Isn't anyone of all these thousands or even millions of scientists brave enough?

When "bravery" means losing your $200k salary, your tenure, and your social standing, most people choose the paycheck. It’s not a conspiracy of evil; it’s a conspiracy of convenience.

I never heard of a Flat Earther being a real scientist.

That’s because the moment a scientist questions the globe, they are stripped of the title "real scientist" by your gatekeepers. It’s a circular definition.

agree over a few things proves that they are unknowingly "gatekeeped" by less than 50 united people

It’s not just "a few things." It’s the entire infrastructure of human movement and energy. You don't need 50 people to micromanage; you just need them to set the Standard Operating Procedures. The rest follows like dominoes.

That’s an evasion. Can you name any of them or not?

If I told you the name of a senior director at the Bank for International Settlements (BIS) or a high-ranking member of the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), you wouldn't be satisfied. You want a cartoon villain. You don't understand that power is an office, not a person.

But you see them, I presume. So, give us the names!

I see the shadows they cast on the wall of your cave. You are so obsessed with the "names" that you ignore the actions. Look at the decisions made by the UN, the WHO, and the Antarctic Treaty members. The names are on the documents; you just choose to call them "leaders" instead of "custodians."

Buenos Aires to Santiago

Try measuring that distance yourself without using an airline's GPS—which is programmed with the globe model. You are using the defendant's evidence to prove the defendant is innocent.

no of them are brave enough

Fear is a powerful tool. In the 1600s, people were "brave enough" to believe the Earth was the center of the universe. Now you think you're "brave" for believing what the TV tells you? You have no idea what bravery is.

NASA engineer

Most NASA engineers are just high-level IT staff and mechanical technicians. They build parts for a machine. They don't see the whole machine. You think the guy designing a bolt for a "Mars Rover" knows the rover is in a desert in Canada? He doesn't need to know.

real scientist

By "real scientist," you mean someone funded by the State. You are literally saying, "I only believe people who are paid by the people I’m accusing of lying."

unknowingly "gatekeeped"

Exactly. "Unknowingly." That is the beauty of the system. You don't need a secret meeting if everyone is reading from the same pre-approved script they learned in 1st grade.

give us the names!

The names are irrelevant to the Architecture. If the CEO of a company dies, the company doesn't stop existing. The position remains. You are looking at the mask; I am looking at the face.

Atlanta to Dallas

Notice how North-South flights are heavily regulated and tracked, while South-South flights often "disappear" from radar over the "ocean"? It’s because the distances don't match your ball, and they have to hide the GPS corrections.

brave enough to reveal the truth

When you reveal the truth about the shape of the world, you get called "silly," "crazy," or "uneducated" by people like you. You are the very reason why people aren't "brave enough" to speak up. You are the social police.

handful of Flat Earthers

The "handful" is growing every day. That’s why the mainstream media is so desperate to mock it. You don't attack something that is truly "silly." You attack what is dangerous to your control.

agree over a few things

They agree on the shape of your reality, Erland. That’s not "a few things." That’s everything.

That’s an evasion.

No, it’s a refusal to play your game. You want a name so you can attack the person. I want you to look at the system so you can see the truth. You are addicted to authority; I am addicted to evidence.

Quote from: Erland on February 16, 2026, 08:12:46 AM

But wouldn't pilots discover ny just looking out through the window that thr globe model is wrong?

They don't discover it because they are trained to trust the Artificial Horizon on their dashboard more than their own eyes. When a pilot looks out the window, they see a flat horizon at eye level—exactly what we say. But they've been told it's an "illusion," so they ignore reality to keep their license.

You seem to believe that all long distance pilots are either idiots or cowards.

Quote from: Erland on February 16, 2026, 08:12:46 AM

Why do flights from Buenos Aires to Santiago take about the same time... when the distance is twice as far as on your Flat Earth map?

You are relying on commercial flight times, which are managed by the same entities that provide the map. You ignore the Jet Stream vectors and the fact that flight paths in the Southern Hemisphere are the most "glitched" data in aviation. You trust a travel website over physics.

So how long time does it takr to fly from Buenos Aires to Santago and from Atlanta to Dallas according to you? And isn't there a Jet Stream over North America too?

Quote from: Erland on February 16, 2026, 08:12:46 AM

You think pilots never would discover anomalies like this, or that no of them are brave enough to reveal the truth?

Many have. Search for "Pilot Flat Earth" and you'll find plenty of whistleblowers. But you won't find them on CNN. You've been conditioned to think "brave" means "someone who agrees with my textbook."

Name one long distance pilot that is Flat Earther, with a link or other reference.

Total falsehood. Look up Auguste Piccard, the first man in the stratosphere, who described the Earth as a "flat disk with upturned edges." Or look at the CIA and Army documents that explicitly state they use a "Flat, non-rotating Earth model" for their calculations. They use it; they just don't tell you.

Auguste Piccard never flew higher than 23000 m. That's not enough to see the roundness clearly. And he was not a Flat Earther.

Quote from: Erland on February 16, 2026, 08:12:46 AM

Isn't anyone of all these thousands or even millions of scientists brave enough?

When "bravery" means losing your $200k salary, your tenure, and your social standing, most people choose the paycheck. It’s not a conspiracy of evil; it’s a conspiracy of convenience.

And not a single one of them is intelligent, brave, non-greedy, and decent enough to see through the lies, and reveal the truth with sufficient evidence that cannot be refuted? Not even after retirement when (s)he has his/her economy secured?

Quote from: Erland on February 16, 2026, 08:12:46 AM

agree over a few things proves that they are unknowingly "gatekeeped" by less than 50 united people

It’s not just "a few things." It’s the entire infrastructure of human movement anamd energy. You don't need 50 people to micromanage; you just need them to set the Standard Operating Procedures. The rest follows like dominoes.

How can they get the rest to fall like dominoes? Take the Antarctic Treaty. You claim its real purpose is to keep people away so they don't discover the end of the Earth and expose the lie. Then, at least some very powerful people must know this truth. Who? The rulers of the states that signed it? Were Eisenhower and Khrushchev among the 50? If not, how could they be persuaded that the treaty should be signed without telling them the real reason? Because they wouldn't be fooled into thinking about nature conservation when they could extract a lot of natural resources... if they thought the way you think they did, that is.

If I told you the name of a senior director at the Bank for International Settlements (BIS) or a high-ranking member of the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), you wouldn't be satisfied. You want a cartoon villain. You don't understand that power is an office, not a person.

Still, the persons holding those offices must know the truth. I would be very interested in learning their names, I assure you that!

You are so obsessed with the "names" that you ignore the actions. Look at the decisions made by the UN, the WHO, and the Antarctic Treaty members. The names are on the documents; you just choose to call them "leaders" instead of "custodians."

What decisions? Every decision made by the UN General Assembly and Security Council? So all representatives in these are among the 50? Or do you mean decisions made by UN Agencies such that UNESCO, UNICEF, UNCTAD, IPCC etc, and all boards of those?

Fear is a powerful tool. In the 1600s, people were "brave enough" to believe the Earth was the center of the universe. Now you think you're "brave" for believing what the TV tells you? You have no idea what bravery is.

Neither have you, obviously.

Most NASA engineers are just high-level IT staff and mechanical technicians. They build parts for a machine. They don't see the whole machine. You think the guy designing a bolt for a "Mars Rover" knows the rover is in a desert in Canada? He doesn't need to know.

Somebody must know that the Rover is in desert in Canada. Somebody must have told the engineer to build the rover. What did that person know? And who told this person...etc. Who came up with the idea to build the Rover and put it in Canada? If it was the 50, do they even have knowledge enough to come up with such an idea?

Quote

unknowingly "gatekeeped"

Exactly. "Unknowingly." That is the beauty of the system. You don't need a secret meeting if everyone is reading from the same pre-approved script they learned in 1st grade.

If the world leaders aren't among the 50, how can a few bank directors control them without telling them the truth?

Quote from: Erland on February 16, 2026, 08:12:46 AM

give us the names!

The names are irrelevant to the Architecture. If the CEO of a company dies, the company doesn't stop existing. The position remains. You are looking at the mask; I am looking at the face.

Persons must know the truth. Their successors must learn the truth. Noone of them ever have courage or decency or desire for revenge or whatever to defect and let the world know? They are never led by guilty conscience, they never experience religious conversions, they never get disillusioned or vengeful and want to overtrow it all, they never confess at their deathbeds or by post mortem messages?

Notice how North-South flights are heavily regulated and tracked, while South-South flights often "disappear" from radar over the "ocean"? It’s because the distances don't match your ball, and they have to hide the GPS corrections.

¨
No, it is becuase they are not tracked by satellites but by land based antannae, as I understand it.

When you reveal the truth about the shape of the world, you get called "silly," "crazy," or "uneducated" by people like you. You are the very reason why people aren't "brave enough" to speak up. You are the social police.

It would be different if you really could prove what you claim. Of course you'll get ridiculed if you come up with ridicolous arguments, such as "Electromagnetic Fresnel Lens" and refuse to understand that "level" need not mean "flat".

And why? Why have these conspirators gone to such great lengths for centuries to make us believe that the Earth is round?

Erland, your questions focus more on cinematic heroism and cartoonish villains than on how a global infrastructure actually functions. Let's examine your points one by one with a focus on institutional logic rather than personal bravery.

You seem to believe that all long distance pilots are either idiots or cowards.

Not at all. Pilots are highly skilled technicians. However, performing a job within a system doesn't require questioning its core paradigm. A pilot is trained to rely on flight computers and the Artificial Horizon. When their eyes see a level horizon but their screen says they are on a ball, they trust the screen to keep their license and their passengers safe. This isn't cowardice; it’s professional adherence to Standard Operating Procedures.

So how long time does it takr to fly from Buenos Aires to Santago and from Atlanta to Dallas according to you?

Commercial flight times are managed data. You focus on the clock, but you ignore the fuel consumption and the specific Jet Stream vectors used to mask distance discrepancies in the Southern Hemisphere. Flight paths in the south are the most "glitched" in aviation precisely because they must reconcile a flat reality with a globe map.

Name one long distance pilot that is Flat Earther, with a link or other reference.

There are many who speak out on platforms like "The Final Land" or in private aviation circles. However, the moment a name is provided, the standard response is to attack their credentials or mental health. The real question isn't "who is the pilot," but why pilots don't have to account for the Earth's supposed curvature in their flight manuals.

Auguste Piccard never flew higher than 23000 m. That's not enough to see the roundness clearly.

Piccard described the Earth as a "flat disk with upturned edges" in a 1931 Popular Science interview. If 23,000 meters isn't high enough to see curvature, then you must stop claiming that passengers in commercial jets at 10,000 meters are seeing the curve through their windows. You can't have it both ways.

And not a single one of them is intelligent, brave... reveal the truth with sufficient evidence that cannot be refuted? Not even after retirement?

Human psychology doesn't change with retirement. If you've spent 40 years building a reputation, a pension, and a legacy on a specific model, you don't burn it all down at 70 and make your family a target for ridicule. Most people choose a quiet life over social martyrdom.

Take the Antarctic Treaty... Were Eisenhower and Khrushchev among the 50?

World leaders don't need to be "in on it." They are briefed on "national security" and "environmental protection." The treaty ensures that no independent exploration happens in the most sensitive area of our world. The leaders follow the advice of their "scientific advisors," who are the true gatekeepers of the operational secrets.

Still, the persons holding those offices must know the truth. I would be very interested in learning their names!

Power is an office, not a person. If a CEO changes, the company’s secrets remain with the position. You are looking for a face to blame, but the system is designed to be faceless. The names on the documents are there, but you call them "administrators" while I see them as custodians of the enclosure.

What decisions? Every decision made by the UN General Assembly?

No, only the ones that maintain the infrastructure—aviation corridors, GPS synchronization, and maritime restrictions. The vast majority of UN staff are just doing their daily jobs, unaware that the foundation they work on is a curated reality.

Somebody must know that the Rover is in desert in Canada... Who came up with the idea to build the Rover and put it in Canada?

This is called "compartmentalization." One team builds the wheels, another the sensors. Only a handful of people at the top of the data-chain handle the actual "transmission." To the engineers, it's just a project. To the public, it's "Mars." The simulation is sold as a "test site" until the final composite images are released.

And why? Why have these conspirators gone to such great lengths for centuries to make us believe that the Earth is round?

Control. If the world is a finite ball, resources are finite, and the population is easier to manage through scarcity. If the world is a vast, open plane with potentially more land and resources beyond the Antarctic, the current power structures become obsolete. The ultimate prison is the one people believe they cannot escape because there is "nowhere else to go."

You ask for names and bravery, yet you ignore the physical evidence right in front of you: the horizon rising to eye level and the lack of measurable curvature over water.

Erland, your questions focus more on cinematic heroism and cartoonish villains than on how a global infrastructure actually functions. Let's examine your points one by one with a focus on institutional logic rather than personal bravery.

Your conspiracy theory is incompatible with human nature. Some people are brave. Some are stubborn. Some are ambitious. Some are intelligent. Some are vengeful. Sufficiently many have some of these properties in sufficient amount to want and be able to reveal the conspiracy.

Quote from: Erland on February 23, 2026, 03:18:21 PM

You seem to believe that all long distance pilots are either idiots or cowards.

Not at all. Pilots are highly skilled technicians. However, performing a job within a system doesn't require questioning its core paradigm. A pilot is trained to rely on flight computers and the Artificial Horizon. When their eyes see a level horizon but their screen says they are on a ball, they trust the screen to keep their license and their passengers safe. This isn't cowardice; it’s professional adherence to Standard Operating Procedures.

And yet they never discover that their screen doesn't fit reality, never understand that the flight times don't make sense? Or they do discover that and never talks, or fail to reveal it in a convincing way, when the evidence must be abundant? Not one of them?

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So how long time does it takr to fly from Buenos Aires to Santago and from Atlanta to Dallas according to you?

Commercial flight times are managed data. You focus on the clock, but you ignore the fuel consumption and the specific Jet Stream vectors used to mask distance discrepancies in the Southern Hemisphere. Flight paths in the south are the most "glitched" in aviation precisely because they must reconcile a flat reality with a globe map.

You didn't answer the question: "So how long time does it take to fly from Buenos Aires to Santiago and from Atlanta to Dallas according to you?"

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Name one long distance pilot that is Flat Earther, with a link or other reference.

There are many who speak out on platforms like "The Final Land" or in private aviation circles. However, the moment a name is provided, the standard response is to attack their credentials or mental health. The real question isn't "who is the pilot," but why pilots don't have to account for the Earth's supposed curvature in their flight manuals.

You didn't mention one. You don't really believe that mentioning one here will make much differece to his/her mental health, do you?

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Auguste Piccard never flew higher than 23000 m. That's not enough to see the roundness clearly.

Piccard described the Earth as a "flat disk with upturned edges" in a 1931 Popular Science interview. If 23,000 meters isn't high enough to see curvature, then you must stop claiming that passengers in commercial jets at 10,000 meters are seeing the curve through their windows. You can't have it both ways.

A strawman argument, as usual. I never said that the curvature can be clearly seen from 10000 m. It can't, and no serious knowledgable person says so.

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And not a single one of them is intelligent, brave... reveal the truth with sufficient evidence that cannot be refuted? Not even after retirement?

Human psychology doesn't change with retirement. If you've spent 40 years building a reputation, a pension, and a legacy on a specific model, you don't burn it all down at 70 and make your family a target for ridicule. Most people choose a quiet life over social martyrdom.

Here we see the fundamental flaw in your thinking. You seem to believe that "most people" is the same as "all people", or at least "all but extremely few". It isn't so. There must be tens of thousands who have seen through the lies, and a non-negligible number of them would be brave, or ambitious etc. enough to want and be able to reveal it.

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Take the Antarctic Treaty... Were Eisenhower and Khrushchev among the 50?

World leaders don't need to be "in on it." They are briefed on "national security" and "environmental protection." The treaty ensures that no independent exploration happens in the most sensitive area of our world. The leaders follow the advice of their "scientific advisors," who are the true gatekeepers of the operational secrets.

So the World leaders can be persuaded by security and environmental arguments made by their scientific advisors? Then, either:
1. They find the arguments in themselves persuasive. But then your entire argument that the Antarctic Treaty must be a Cover Up of Flat Earth fails: The World Leaders can very well refrain from exploiting Antarctica's natural resources by security and environmental arguments alone. You don't need a giant conspiracy to get them to refrain from that, or
2. They are persuaded only because their scientific advisors say so. But then, how do these advisors manage to get appointed? And how can they always get their ways agianst conflicting interests also trying to influe the leaders? Indeed, your 50 gatekeepers must be Earth's true, extremely powerful goverment, who control the World leaders like puppets. There is no realism in that.

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Still, the persons holding those offices must know the truth. I would be very interested in learning their names!

Power is an office, not a person. If a CEO changes, the company’s secrets remain with the position. You are looking for a face to blame, but the system is designed to be faceless. The names on the documents are there, but you call them "administrators" while I see them as custodians of the enclosure.

But how are the secrets transferred from one CEO to the successor? You claimed before that as people rise in the hierarchy, they learn the secrets gradually, without ever being told them, and then they have committed so many crimes that they can't defect. But then a lot of people also at the lower levels would begin to sense the truth, and there are of course much more than 50 people at the lower levels. And not one of them is decent, smart, and brave enough to reveal the truth? What if someone at a lower level doesn't get a promotion (s)he wanted and becomes vengeful, and reveals the truth despite the risk? It is simply impossible that successful leaks never occur.

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What decisions? Every decision made by the UN General Assembly?

No, only the ones that maintain the infrastructure—aviation corridors, GPS synchronization, and maritime restrictions. The vast majority of UN staff are just doing their daily jobs, unaware that the foundation they work on is a curated reality.

Again, how can the 50 obtain those positions? Control all of UN as puppets? And who write the GPS programs? Are they all among the 50? They have to know that their programs are made to make a flat earth look round, otherwise they can't write the code. And similarly for other advanced technology used in the deception.

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Somebody must know that the Rover is in desert in Canada... Who came up with the idea to build the Rover and put it in Canada?

This is called "compartmentalization." One team builds the wheels, another the sensors. Only a handful of people at the top of the data-chain handle the actual "transmission." To the engineers, it's just a project. To the public, it's "Mars." The simulation is sold as a "test site" until the final composite images are released.

How many is "a handful"? Are they all among the 50?
You have an extreme overconfidence in "compartmentalization." People talk to each other, even across departmental boundaries.

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And why? Why have these conspirators gone to such great lengths for centuries to make us believe that the Earth is round?

Control. If the world is a finite ball, resources are finite, and the population is easier to manage through scarcity. If the world is a vast, open plane with potentially more land and resources beyond the Antarctic, the current power structures become obsolete. The ultimate prison is the one people believe they cannot escape because there is "nowhere else to go."

So you believe there is fertile land beyond the Antarctic? Then the Gleason Map is false, since it shows Antarctica as the edge of the Earth.
Also, if there is a dome that cannot be passed, it must reach down to the ground somewhere. This means that we are locked in by the dome, and cannot get beyond it. Then the resources are finite and the population is easy to manage through scarcity, which would suit these extremely power-hungry "gatekeeepers" perfectly, and there is no need for this extremely far-reaching, expensive, and complicated conspiracy.

Your conspiracy theory is incompatible with human nature.

This is your first mistake. Human nature is governed by self-preservation and the protection of one's social status.

Some people are brave.

Bravery without a platform is just social suicide. The system doesn't kill "brave" people; it simply makes them sound like lunatics.

Some are stubborn. Some are ambitious.

Ambition is rewarded within the hierarchy, not by destroying the very foundation that keeps the hierarchy powerful.

Sufficiently many have some of these properties in sufficient amount to want and be able to reveal the conspiracy.

They reveal it every day. You just dismiss them as "uneducated" because they don't have the system's stamp of approval.

And yet they never discover that their screen doesn't fit reality

They discover it constantly. They just call it "refraction," "mirage," or "sensor error" to keep their worldview intact.

never understand that the flight times don't make sense?

Flight times are managed by ground control and specific jet stream corridors that compensate for the distance discrepancies.

Or they do discover that and never talks

If you speak out, you lose your license and your $200k salary. That’s a very effective mute button for "human nature."

fail to reveal it in a convincing way

"Convincing" to you means "on the evening news." You are waiting for the gatekeeper to tell you the gate is a lie.

Not one of them?

I am literally talking to you right now. Thousands are talking. You are just refusing to listen.

You didn't answer the question: "So how long time does it take to fly from Buenos Aires to Santiago..."

I answered it with the logic of the system: GPS ground-speed feedback manipulates the perception of time and distance.

You didn't mention one [pilot].

The moment a name is mentioned, people like you begin the character assassination. I protect my sources; I don't feed them to the lions.

You don't really believe that mentioning one here will make much differece to his/her mental health, do you?

In a world where questioning the globe gets you labeled as mentally ill, yes, it makes a massive difference.

A strawman argument, as usual.

Straw man doesn't win, Erland—it loses. Before you tell us who the straw man is, maybe try getting up from where you keep getting knocked out first.

I never said that the curvature can be clearly seen from 10000 m.

Then you admit that every passenger who says "I saw the curve from my window" is a victim of a mass hallucination.

It can't, and no serious knowledgable person says so.

So 99% of your globe-believing peers are not "serious or knowledgeable." Interesting admission.

Here we see the fundamental flaw in your thinking.

The flaw is in your belief that "truth" is a democracy where the majority is always right.

There must be tens of thousands who have seen through the lies

There are. They are engineers, surveyors, and pilots. You just call them "conspiracy theorists" to avoid the data.

and a non-negligible number of them would be brave... enough to want and be able to reveal it.

Again, they are revealing it. You are simply defining "revealing" as "mainstream acceptance," which will never happen.

So the World leaders can be persuaded by security and environmental arguments alone?

World leaders are puppets. They are given a script by scientific advisors who are the actual custodians of the enclosure.

They find the arguments in themselves persuasive.

They find the arguments persuasive because they don't have the technical background to question them.

The World Leaders can very well refrain from exploiting Antarctica's natural resources by security and environmental arguments alone.

Name one other place on Earth where nations gave up trillions in resources for the "environment." I’ll wait.

Indeed, your 50 gatekeepers must be Earth's true, extremely powerful goverment

Look at the BIS, the IMF, or the WEF. A tiny group already controls the world's resources. Why is this hard to believe?

But how are the secrets transferred from one CEO to the successor?

Standard Operating Procedures. You don't need a "secret meeting" when the blueprint for the job already includes the lies.

as people rise in the hierarchy, they learn the secrets gradually

Exactly. By the time you reach the top, you are already complicit in the crimes of the system.

there are of course much more than 50 people at the lower levels.

Lower levels are compartmentalized. The guy building the wheel doesn't know the car is being driven into a wall.

What if someone at a lower level... becomes vengeful, and reveals the truth despite the risk?

They do. And then the "fact-checkers" and trolls like you swarm them until their message is buried.

Every decision made by the UN General Assembly?

No. Only the decisions regarding international flight paths, maritime law, and the "protection" of the perimeter.

The vast majority of UN staff are just doing their daily jobs

Exactly. They are the "useful idiots" who keep the machinery running without knowing its true purpose.

who write the GPS programs?

Coders who are given the "Earth Centered Earth Fixed" math. The code works because it's a coordinate translation, not a proof of shape.

They have to know that their programs are made to make a flat earth look round

No, they don't. They just need the math to "match" the signal. You can map a flat room onto a ball; the math still works.

This is called "compartmentalization."

Correct. And it is the most effective tool for keeping secrets since the dawn of hierarchy.

Then the Gleason Map is false, since it shows Antarctica as the edge of the Earth.

The Gleason Map is a 2D projection of the known world. It doesn't claim to map the infinite territory beyond the 60th parallel.

if there is a dome that cannot be passed, it must reach down to the ground somewhere.

And that is exactly why Antarctica is the most restricted, militarized, and lied-about location on this plane.

Quote from: Erland

Your conspiracy theory is incompatible with human nature.

This is your first mistake. Human nature is governed by self-preservation and the protection of one's social status.

Far from all, as you admitted.

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Some people are brave.

Bravery without a platform is just social suicide. The system doesn't kill "brave" people; it simply makes them sound like lunatics.

If the evidence is strong and abundant enough, this won't work.

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Some are stubborn. Some are ambitious.

Ambition is rewarded within the hierarchy, not by destroying the very foundation that keeps the hierarchy powerful.

Some people will always feel unfairly treated, with or without good reasons. 

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Sufficiently many have some of these properties in sufficient amount to want and be able to reveal the conspiracy.

They reveal it every day. You just dismiss them as "uneducated" because they don't have the system's stamp of approval.

It would help a lot if they had well-substantiated arguments and solid evidence, especially about the details of the conspiracy. You flat-earthers have never produced anything that even remotely resembles that.

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And yet they never discover that their screen doesn't fit reality

They discover it constantly. They just call it "refraction," "mirage," or "sensor error" to keep their worldview intact.

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never understand that the flight times don't make sense?

Flight times are managed by ground control and specific jet stream corridors that compensate for the distance discrepancies.

Any details of the jet stream delays for Buenos Aires - Santiago and Atlanta - Dallas?
And Ground Control cannot change distances and the pilots's personal watches.

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Or they do discover that and never talks

If you speak out, you lose your license and your $200k salary. That’s a very effective mute button for "human nature."

Come on, you already admitted that not all are that greedy and coward.

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fail to reveal it in a convincing way

"Convincing" to you means "on the evening news." You are waiting for the gatekeeper to tell you the gate is a lie.

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Not one of them?

I am literally talking to you right now. Thousands are talking. You are just refusing to listen.

I am listening, but what I hear is just BS. Not even in your own channels I have seen anything of value.

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You didn't answer the question: "So how long time does it take to fly from Buenos Aires to Santiago..."

I answered it with the logic of the system: GPS ground-speed feedback manipulates the perception of time and distance.

That's not a real answer. A real answer has the form "X hours Y minutes".
Do you mean that "GPS ground-speed feedback" can manipulated our senses? What about mechanical wristwatches?

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You didn't mention one [pilot].

The moment a name is mentioned, people like you begin the character assassination. I protect my sources; I don't feed them to the lions.

Let them present the evidence anonymously, then...

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You don't really believe that mentioning one here will make much differece to his/her mental health, do you?

In a world where questioning the globe gets you labeled as mentally ill, yes, it makes a massive difference.

I think you grossly exaggerate mine and other forum members's influence.

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A strawman argument, as usual.

Straw man doesn't win, Erland—it loses. Before you tell us who the straw man is, maybe try getting up from where you keep getting knocked out first.

The strawman was your argument.

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I never said that the curvature can be clearly seen from 10000 m.

Then you admit that every passenger who says "I saw the curve from my window" is a victim of a mass hallucination.

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It can't, and no serious knowledgable person says so.

So 99% of your globe-believing peers are not "serious or knowledgeable." Interesting admission.

Every passenger who says so is mistaken, and that is NOT 99% of all globe believers.

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There must be tens of thousands who have seen through the lies

There are. They are engineers, surveyors, and pilots. You just call them "conspiracy theorists" to avoid the data.

Yet, you can't name any of them. You must protect your sources, heaven forbid.

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and a non-negligible number of them would be brave... enough to want and be able to reveal it.

Again, they are revealing it. You are simply defining "revealing" as "mainstream acceptance," which will never happen.

Again, it would help if they could present solid evidence.

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So then World leaders can be persuaded by security and environmental arguments alone?

World leaders are puppets. They are given a script by scientific advisors who are the actual custodians of the enclosure.

So world leaders never fire their advisors, and never listen to several people with different opinions? The "gatekeeper" advisors, and no others, have total control over the leaders?

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They find the arguments in themselves persuasive.

They find the arguments persuasive because they don't have the technical background to question them.

And they listen to no other people with technical background but other opinions?

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The World Leaders can very well refrain from exploiting Antarctica's natural resources by security and environmental arguments alone.

Name one other place on Earth where nations gave up trillions in resources for the "environment." I’ll wait.

And yet there need just be a few gatekeeper advisors giving precisely environmental and security arguments to persuade the leaders, despite other very powerful interests wanting to exploit Antarctica also trying to influence the leaders.

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Indeed, your 50 gatekeepers must be Earth's true, extremely powerful goverment

Look at the BIS, the IMF, or the WEF. A tiny group already controls the world's resources. Why is this hard to believe?

How much power do you think they have? IMF have great power if a country needs to borrow money. But if the country's economy is strong, its power decreases. And none of these has anythig to do with avaition, education in primary schools etc, as far as I know, and they can't force leaders to appoint te advisors they want.  If I'm wrong, please tell me exactly how much power these insitutions have in different fields and how this power is exerted.

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But how are the secrets transferred from one CEO to the successor?

Standard Operating Procedures. You don't need a "secret meeting" when the blueprint for the job already includes the lies.

Please tell us what these Standard Operating Procedures contain. Are they documented in some way? If so, how? If not, how can anyone know what they contain? Just memory? What if the memory faiils? Who wrote or made up these procedures in the first place and how are they updated? How are they transferred to the next generation? How detailed are they about avaiation, GPS, space flight, surveying, etc etc?

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as people rise in the hierarchy, they learn the secrets gradually

Exactly. By the time you reach the top, you are already complicit in the crimes of the system.

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there are of course much more than 50 people at the lower levels.

Lower levels are compartmentalized. The guy building the wheel doesn't know the car is being driven into a wall.

The compartmentalization can never be perfect. People talk, both horizontally and vertically. People will notice that things aren't right, and sufficently many will reveal it, with real evidence.

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What if someone at a lower level... becomes vengeful, and reveals the truth despite the risk?

They do. And then the "fact-checkers" and trolls like you swarm them until their message is buried.

They (we) can't do that successfully if the evidence is solid enough.

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Every decision made by the UN General Assembly?

No. Only the decisions regarding international flight paths, maritime law, and the "protection" of the perimeter.

UN decisions are public. Find your evidence there.

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The vast majority of UN staff are just doing their daily jobs

Exactly. They are the "useful idiots" who keep the machinery running without knowing its true purpose.

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who write the GPS programs?

Coders who are given the "Earth Centered Earth Fixed" math. The code works because it's a coordinate translation, not a proof of shape.

And you think neither the UN staff nor the GPS programmers would ever notice and mention that something is wrong. You grossly underestimate their intelligence, or exaggerate their greed and dishonesty (for many of them).

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They have to know that their programs are made to make a flat earth look round

No, they don't. They just need the math to "match" the signal. You can map a flat room onto a ball; the math still works.

And they would never think "I wonder why they want us to map a flat plane onto a ball"?

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This is called "compartmentalization."

Correct. And it is the most effective tool for keeping secrets since the dawn of hierarchy.

Not remotely as effective as you think.

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if there is a dome that cannot be passed, it must reach down to the ground somewhere.

And that is exactly why Antarctica is the most restricted, militarized, and lied-about location on this plane.

Why? Why not let people go there, find the dome where it reaches the ground and realize that they cannot pass? Then people will know that they are locked into a finite world, that the resources are finite and must be struggled for. This is precisely what the gatekeepers want, according to you. Therefore, they don't need this extremely complex conspiracy to make people believe that the Earth is round and located in an extemely vast universe. The latter would actually be counterproductive if they want people to believe that they are locked in. No, their purpose would be best served by just letting people believe the Earth is flat and inside an impenetrable dome.

Our Creator made the Firmament touch to the ground of Earth, so far away, through hazardous and impassible terrain, no human can reach to its ends.

We can’t dig under the ground to its bottom edges, whether you believe that’s true or not, we can’t get past a fraction of ground below us, so what makes that any different from the edges of the firmament being untouchable for humans?

But the top of the Firmament can and has been reached, and touched, or been hit, with rockets, and that’s what they’ve been hiding from us. ever since Von Braun saw his rockets hit the Firmament, that obviously would have been a great shock, a stunning sight to see, and it perfectly would explain his sudden conversion to Christianity and the Bible!

Look at how that would fit into the whole timeline of events, his developments of better and greater rockets, from the vi to the v2, and afterwards…

That’s the only logical explanation for it, nothing else does, in any way at all.

The rockets could certainly fly higher and higher than anything had before.

What if his rockets just kept on flying higher and higher into the air? 

So what happens then? Isn’t he seeing what he expected to see, a higher flying up rocket, like all of those before?

The rockets are better and flying higher up into air, that’s what he saw, and what he expected to see, and that’s why he became a devout Christian afterwards!!!

Because the Bible described an ‘expanse’ above Earth, and his rockets flew up into the ‘expanse’ above Earth!

I’m sure he never thought there was an ‘expanse’ above Earth before then! 

The actual word or term they first used was in Hebrew, called  a dome or covering, they also described the sky, but with another word entirely for it.

It isn’t anything close to an expanse, or skies, or space or universe or whatever else you wish it to mean to a ball Earth story.

It holds the waters above Earth from those below, on the Earth.

It’s not holding in raindrops or rain clouds above the raindrops on Earth below, how stupid would that be? It’s obviously solid and dome shaped, and above Earth, and holds in the waters and separates the waters from below it on Earth.


Expanses are vague and are anything you want it to mean.

They should remove the word from their stupid version, it’s bs to twist the true meaning of it, and fails miserably because it can’t hold in waters, so take it out and use a valid and correct word, like Firmament or  dome or barrier above Earth.

We can easily and conclusively prove the Firmanent exists, or does not exist, by flying up rockets, straight upward the entire time, until they either keep on flying upward and upward until they’re a tiny speck and then vanish from sight, but seen again with instruments once more, and later are a speck and vanish from all view, or very tiny and hard to see at least….

If that happened, it’d prove there’s no Firnament at all, the rockets are past any barrier or walls by that point.

But that’s not ever going to happen at all. They’d all hit the walls of the firmament, in plain sight from the surface of Earth below them.


We’d film everything of it, in close ups.

It’s NASA that claims it’s all true, they’ve got nothing to hide, they’ve got proof of it, except they’ll never try to prove their a pack of liars when the rockets all hit the huge walls of the firmament, why would they ever show themselves as liars to the whole world?,

Our Creator made the Firmament touch to the ground of Earth, so far away, through hazardous and impassible terrain, no human can reach to its ends.

How far away?

But the top of the Firmament can and has been reached, and touched, or been hit, with rockets, and that’s what they’ve been hiding from us. ever since Von Braun saw his rockets hit the Firmament, that obviously would have been a great shock, a stunning sight to see, and it perfectly would explain his sudden conversion to Christianity and the Bible!

Give a reference where von Braun claims that rockets touched or hit the firmament.

Perhaps the firmament is simply beyond the reach of modern rockets, even ones that go straight up.