Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.

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Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« on: November 29, 2024, 03:46:19 PM »
Currently, our Northern Star is Polaris.  There is a simple test, that anyone can do, to prove if the earth is flat or round.  The following two facts can be established using simple geometry.

1. On a round Earth, the angle Polaris sits above the horizon is equal to the latitude from which one is observing (if one wants to get very technical it is only approximate, but the difference is so small that unless one is using precision equipment you don't need to worry about it.)

2. On a flat Earth, the angle Polaris makes above the horizon is equal to arctan(H/d), where H is how high Polaris is above the North Pole, and d is how far you are from the North Pole. 

I took some local measurements and got H as = 5376.25 km.  I am at 40 degrees latitude, and get 40 degrees when I measure the angle that Polaris is above the horizon. 

If you can see stars where you are, you can measure the angle and see if it follows the rule for Flat or Round.  This requires no special equipment - I got a protractor at Walmart for less than $10.  The only thing that may cost a bit is if you don't believe my measurement and want to take two yourself, in which case you would have to travel to another place with an appreciable difference.  Or just remember on your next trip to make the measurement.   

This requires no special training.  You don't have to be a scientist, engineer, geologist, anything. Anyone can prove for themselves if the Earth is flat or round. 
 

 

Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2024, 07:04:47 PM »
It makes sense because stars are aligned within a large concave shape, not as a ball Earth seeing stars this way.

On a ball, we’d see the stars from every point on that ball, which rotates in one specific direction or path, within ‘space’ viewed all around us, at different points.

Assuming stars look motionless and Earth is rotating in one direction or path within ‘space’, what we’d actually see of the stars, would be different directions at every point on Earth seeing them from Earth.

Seeing stars from any point on Earth, we all see them move in a circle, in one same direction, and that’s not possible if Earth were a ball.

From points on Earth which follow its rotational path, we’d see the stars pass by us in linear motion of Earth’s linear path of rotation. As a 360 degree view around us on Earth, like we see people pass by us over and over again from a carousel. 

Others at the middle point of Earth’s rotational path would see stars move in a circle, as that’s the point Earth would rotate around at center, top and bottom of it.

When we see them everywhere on Sarth moving in a circle, it proves Earth is not a ball, cannot be a ball.


Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2024, 07:18:38 PM »
I am not 100% sure of the point that you're making, but I will try to do my best to respond based on what you said.

Quote
On a ball, we’d see the stars from every point on that ball, which rotates in one specific direction or path, within ‘space’ viewed all around us, at different points.

People do see the stars at different points (say, relative to the horizon) based on their position.  That was the whole point of the Polaris experiment I suggested.  Where I am you will see it at 40 degrees.  On the equator, it will be on the horizon.  In the southern hemisphere you won't see it at all.  Note also that Polaris disappearing when you go far enough south doesn't make sense on a flat Earth.  The change in position in the sky correlated with the change in position on Earth is a test of the shape of the Earth - that's the point of the post. 

And the stars will for sure move in circles around Polaris (in the northern hemisphere) on a ball earth.  It is due to the rotation of the earth, but since we are in the Earth frame it looks like the stars are moving.  I am not sure why you claim it is impossible on a round Earth.  Could you perhaps explain more why you think that?   

Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2024, 07:55:12 PM »
As I said, a carousel rotates in one direction or path.

Imagine a carousel in the desert at night. You’re on Earth as a massive carousel, at a point of its rotational path.

You view things out from you while rotating with Earths rotational path.

You couldn’t ever see the stars circling above you, looking up from the ball Earth.

Every point on a rotating ball would have different views of the stars and their relative movements as you see them from Earth.

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markjo

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Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2024, 08:44:56 PM »
Seeing stars from any point on Earth, we all see them move in a circle, in one same direction, and that’s not possible if Earth were a ball.
Stars are seen rotating in one direction north of the equator, but in a different direction south of the equator.  That's not possible is the earth is flat.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2024, 08:46:29 PM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2024, 11:03:42 PM »
They all move in the very same direction.

It looks to move in the opposite direction, because we are facing the stars in opposite directions in the north than in the south.

I’ve told you about how stars wouldn’t be seen circling us from everywhere on Earth.

Yet you claim they are seen in opposite circles at the two ‘poles’?

How about the rest of Earth not at the two poles? More circles, no reason to circle at all?

They like to jump at opposite circles of stars, but never mention the rest of ball Earth isn’t going to see stars circling!

It would destroy their bs story, and it does destroy it. Ignoring the facts doesn’t happen, won’t save your bs stories.



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JackBlack

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Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2024, 04:27:20 AM »
It makes sense because stars are aligned within a large concave shape, not as a ball Earth seeing stars this way.

On a ball, we’d see the stars from every point on that ball, which rotates in one specific direction or path, within ‘space’ viewed all around us, at different points.

Assuming stars look motionless and Earth is rotating in one direction or path within ‘space’, what we’d actually see of the stars, would be different directions at every point on Earth seeing them from Earth.
Why don't you try drawing out what you mean?

Seeing stars from any point on Earth, we all see them move in a circle, in one same direction, and that’s not possible if Earth were a ball.
No. That is exactly what we would expect for a ball.
If we look north, we will see the stars appear to circle a point due north. If we look due south, we see them circling a point due south.

Conversely, if Earth was flat, we would see ellipses, not circles, and only to the north. The only place that would see circles would be the north pole.

From points on Earth which follow its rotational path, we’d see the stars pass by us in linear motion of Earth’s linear path of rotation. As a 360 degree view around us on Earth, like we see people pass by us over and over again from a carousel.
You mean what people at the equator see for stars going over the equator?

When we see them everywhere on Sarth moving in a circle, it proves Earth is not a ball, cannot be a ball.
Quite the opposite, it proves Earth IS round.

As I said, a carousel rotates in one direction or path.
And a carousel is NOT a ball.

You are trying to pretend the entirety of the RE is just the equator and only looking directly out.

If you want to get something even remotely close to what you are trying to object to, make sure that carousel does not have a roof. Then lie on it so your feet are towards the centre and your head is towards the edge, and then look up.
That would be equivalent to someone at the equator looking north.
Then above you, have something to look at, not directly above the carousel, but off some distance, but still in your FOV.

Guess what path that object appears to trace? A CIRCLE (roughly, it needs to be far enough away to produce the circles)!

They all move in the very same direction.
But they appear to trace circles in opposite directions, one clockwise, one counter clockwise.
That can't happen on a flat Earth with a single pole at the centre.

I’ve told you about how stars wouldn’t be seen circling us from everywhere on Earth.
You mean you have asserted pure BS, and tried to justify that pure BS with a pathetic strawman.

How about the rest of Earth not at the two poles? More circles, no reason to circle at all?
More circles.
If you take a camera and angle it to an angle of elevation of your latitude, and have it point due north, or angle it based upon the negative of your latitude and point due south, you will see the stars trace out circles. Just like you would expect for a round Earth.

Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2024, 04:46:46 AM »

That can't happen on a flat Earth with a single pole at the centre.






Are you saying these gears couldn't possibly exist above a flat surface because one is turning one way and the other is turning another way?

Because that sure seems to be what you are suggesting, and I am saying the exact opposite.

So before telling others to read more carefully engage their brain, follow your own advice and read what others have said, with your brain engaged.


And their argument is correct.
That observation alone is not enough to prove Earth is spherical.

Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2024, 06:05:04 AM »
The "Carousel" analogy for FE is easily refutable.  Why are there different constellations visible in the southern and northern hemispheres?  RE has a good explanation - Earth gets in the way.  What is your explanation on the FE model? 

As I pointed out in the original post - there is a simple test that can be done for less than $10.  I gave you my measurement of Polaris angle and my latitude.  Go outside and do the same.  If flat Earth is true you can prove it in 5 minutes.   

Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2024, 11:32:14 AM »
A still simpler test which you can actually do INSIDE your home.

Build a frame, 8-10 ft wide. Hang it to the ceiling so that it can rotate (preferably with an electric motor, at constant speed) while lying horizontally, 1 m above the floor. Put on it a dozen or two of tiny LED lights, representing stars.

Or, if you think with turbonium that “stars are aligned within a large concave shape” you can build a sort of dome, which also can rotate.

(please don't stop reading here! I'll soon explain how you can spare the trouble of building such a huge rotating thing)

Then darken your room, place on the floor a camera (your phone) and see whether it films something similar to what we see in the night sky.

Will the “stars” appear to move in circles?

Spoiler: only if the camera is just under the axis of rotation, as if it were at the N Pole, and points upwards

(indeed, the N Pole is where a flat Earth or a globe behave the same way. When FEs say “plane routes prove a FE” they actually refer to routes through the N polar region, where the globe can be best approximated by Gleason's map)

But NOT if the camera is at some distance from there (at “mid latitudes”). Then the “stars” will appear to move in ellipses.

Of course, to avoid the trouble of building such a huge rotating thing, you can place LEDs on the ceiling and the walls, and rotate a horizontal disk of some ft, with the camera at its center (N Pole) or far from it (mid latitudes). The relative motion is the same.

(you could even rotate just a wooden beam)

This was to test the FE.

To test the globe, same LEDs on ceiling and walls, attaching the camera on a globe, at various latitudes, with various orientations.

Have lots of fun! Share your outcomes!

Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2024, 09:22:14 PM »
At a point which follows your ball Earth’s rotational path, looking upward from that point to the stars above you, what direction would you see them apparently moving in?

You’d see them in the path of Earths rotational path outward from you. Not any circular paths, you’re on a rotational path, and would see stars along a linear path, from rotating in a linear path on Earth.


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JackBlack

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Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2024, 11:30:34 PM »
At a point which follows your ball Earth’s rotational path, looking upward from that point to the stars above you, what direction would you see them apparently moving in?
This depends upon exactly where you are. But people are not magically restricted to just looking straight up.

If you are standing on the equator, looking north, for a rotating round Earth, what do you expect to see?
CIRCLES!

For a FE, you would expect the north celestial pole to still be high in the sky, and the star trails to be ellipses.

Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2024, 01:01:50 AM »
You would not be able to see the top of your ball from the middle of it.

You’d also see stars above you while rotating past them in a straight line, but we don’t ever see that from Earth, which we would if it was a spinning ball.

Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2024, 01:20:21 AM »
The reason we always see stars move above us in circles, is due to being on a flat surface while all the stars move together in one huge circle.

We see it as a smaller circle of one area of the entire circle moving as one thing.

They are not perfect circles, only the center of Earth is seen as a perfect circle in the middle and out from it.

A ball Earth that rotates in a single path or line going around in a circle would have many different shapes than just circles. It would have to.

Focus on the middle point above you in the sky and see those stars. Then you rotate in a line past those stars. You’d not see those stars again that night, nor any other stars either.

A time lapse view of it would show the stars as streaking lines, not in a circle above you.

Draw it out if you want to see what it’d look like. No circles would be seen from your position on Earth


Imagine being on a point of Earths rotational path, moving with that line on a ball Earth.

From your position, we need to flip it up on the top, where we’d look up at stars from.

Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2024, 08:14:45 AM »
To do your calcs you would have to know how far you are from the North Pole. Flat Earthers would dispute this since distances between places are a huge conspiracy.
If you watch how the stars move around Polaris they follow a round arc. The sun follows this arc as well. The sun rises and sets and does not come around hovering.
When I was at 71degrees North in January, I noticed sunlight shining atop a hill farther from the sun than I was. I was in dark. I went on a snowmobile to the top of the hill and could see the sun partly on the horizon. The only way this would be possible on a flat earth is if the sun was below the flat surface. This supports the idea of a sun rising and setting, not hovering over our heads.
A strong argument that is hard to dispute from a flat earther is that they broke their back and the shade is down in their hospital room. They cannot look out the window to verify what you claim.
Cheers

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JackBlack

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Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2024, 01:13:48 PM »
You would not be able to see the top of your ball from the middle of it.
And no one is suggesting you can.
Instead, what they are suggesting is you can see the stars that are "above" that point, but very far away.

This is not hard to understand.

You’d also see stars above you while rotating past them in a straight line, but we don’t ever see that from Earth, which we would if it was a spinning ball.
Yes we do, if we artificially restrict the view to the BS you want, and you are at the equator.
You can even test this yourself.
Go get a camera, set it to a tiny FOV, and point it straight up.

But then again that isn't really useful as if you have such a tiny FOV almost any path appears to be a straight line.

The reason we always see stars move above us in circles, is due to being on a flat surface while all the stars move together in one huge circle.
Repeating the same refuted BS wont help you.
That would require them to be an ellipse, not a circle, unless you are in the centre.

And this should still be visible from the south looking north.

Instead, they are circles, and can be seen due north or due south.

A ball Earth that rotates in a single path or line going around in a circle would have many different shapes than just circles. It would have to.
Why? Because you say so?

Try actually justifying your BS rather than continually asserting it.

Focus on the middle point above you in the sky and see those stars. Then you rotate in a line past those stars. You’d not see those stars again that night, nor any other stars either.
And that applies regardless of if you are on a flat Earth or a round Earth. Either way, you see the stars directly above pass over once.

A time lapse view of it would show the stars as streaking lines, not in a circle above you.
Again, regardless of the shape of Earth.

Draw it out if you want to see what it’d look like. No circles would be seen from your position on Earth
Only for that artificially restricted view.
Again, stop restricting the view like that.

Allow people a wider FOV, say 90 degrees, and allow them to look due north or due south, at an angle based upon their latitude.
Then they see circles.

Please explain what magic would stop them.

Or you can wait until I have some more free time and I can make an amination if POVRay, to yet again show everyone you are a lying POS.

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JackBlack

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Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2024, 01:16:48 PM »
To do your calcs you would have to know how far you are from the North Pole. Flat Earthers would dispute this since distances between places are a huge conspiracy.
If you watch how the stars move around Polaris they follow a round arc. The sun follows this arc as well. The sun rises and sets and does not come around hovering.
When I was at 71degrees North in January, I noticed sunlight shining atop a hill farther from the sun than I was. I was in dark. I went on a snowmobile to the top of the hill and could see the sun partly on the horizon. The only way this would be possible on a flat earth is if the sun was below the flat surface. This supports the idea of a sun rising and setting, not hovering over our heads.
A strong argument that is hard to dispute from a flat earther is that they broke their back and the shade is down in their hospital room. They cannot look out the window to verify what you claim.
Cheers
A quick way to fix the distance issue is to use 2 objects.
Take the sun on the equinox and find it at its peak (a quick way to do this is to put a stick vertically over a flat surface and mark the path of the tip of the shadow of the stick. When that is longest that should be the peak. Then measure the angle from the tip of the stick to the point marked for the tip of the shadow.

Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2024, 12:42:22 AM »
A rotating path for ball Earth, is the same thing for any ball or object in singular path of rotation.

We cannot see any more than we do now on Earth, except our view would be different for stars and sun and moon on a ball Earth rotating in one path or direction.

A ball Earth would certainly offer different paths over all points on it.

They claim we see stars rotate in a circle above us because Earth is rotating in a circle, right?

Except the Earth would only rotate in one circular path. We’d never all see stars move above us in circles, because the Earth wouldn’t rotate in multiple paths at the same time, only in one path of a circle.

From one point on Earth, we see stars above us, and all around us.  The ball Earth rotates below our position…

Stars would be seen moving in every direction upon a rotating ball. Circular paths to linear paths and all the other paths as well.

It doesn’t matter if the view is cut off anywhere, they aren’t going to all be circular paths of stars we’d see on a ball Earth

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JackBlack

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Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2024, 01:44:02 AM »
A ball Earth would certainly offer different paths over all points on it.
Continuing to repeat the same lies wont help you.

They claim we see stars rotate in a circle above us because Earth is rotating in a circle, right?
No, it is because Earth is rotating about its axis.
And because of how far away the stars are, the distance between you and that axis is negligible.

So that means to get an idea of what the sky would look like over a night, take a picture of it, and rotate it about the axis of rotation, i.e. the north celestial pole or the south celestial pole.
And guess what path that produces? CIRCLES!

So for a rotating round Earth, we would expect the stars to trace circular paths.

What varies is the angular separation for a given star from the north or south celestial pole, and the orientation of the pole relative to Earth beneath you.
And this will mean for plenty of stars you will not see the entire circle. Instead it will go below the horizon.

Conversely, for a flat Earth, because the stars are so close, the distance from the axis of rotation is quite significant, which will distort those circle into ellipses.

So again, what is observed matches a round Earth.

Stars would be seen moving in every direction upon a rotating ball.
How?
How does rotating magically make stars appear to move in every direction?
For example, how does an west to east rotation make a star appear to move from west to east?

Circular paths to linear paths and all the other paths as well.
No, not a linear path. A circular path in a plane passing through you.
You can project that to a linear path, but it is still fundamentally a circular path.
One big difference between a linear path and a circular path is the rate of change in the angular position. If it is circular, it should be constant. If it is linear, it would vary.

Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2024, 02:16:00 AM »
No, you’re using circular paths that wouldn’t exist or be seen like that.

Our actual view outward to stars would match up to the path rotation for your ball Earth.

What are some of the cities that are on the path of Earth ball rotation?

If Earth rotated in line with the North Star, you’d circle it from below, in a linear path.

Imagine ball Earth with the North Star above a point. Then imagine Earth rotating away from the North Star, in a circular path of rotation. It would soon be out of view as you rotate on the Earth ball. Other stars would appear above you at that point, which also go out of view, and other stars are above you once again.

It proves Earth isn’t a rotating ball in space, from that fact alone.

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JackBlack

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Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2024, 01:39:52 PM »
No, you’re using circular paths that wouldn’t exist or be seen like that.
I have explained why it would exist, and why it would be seen like that.
You have provided NOTHING to counter it, instead just continually making the same assertions.

Our actual view outward to stars would match up to the path rotation for your ball Earth.
Why do you keep appealing to a path?

Again, the rotation is about an axis.
And the distance to the stars makes the distance from any point on Earth to the axis of rotation of Earth entirely negligible.

So you can treat it as an axis passing directly through you, aligned with the axis of rotation of Earth.


Imagine ball Earth with the North Star above a point.
And importantly, imagine the distance to it being many many many many many many many many many many many many times the distance between you and the axis of rotation.
That means the rotation will have no significant effect on your ability to see the north pole star.

As an example with numbers, say a hypothetical pole star is just 6.73 light years away, and directly in line with the axis of Earth, and you are on the equator.
Well, that 6.73 light years equates to roughly 63 700 000 000 000 km.
So the parallax angle will be given by atan(6371 / 63 700 000 000 000) = 0.0000000057 degrees. So the star, if you could see it over an entire 24 hour period, would appear to trace a tiny circle that has an angular diameter of roughly 0.00000001 degrees.
That is going to be too small for you to notice.

So no, the north star will not soon be out of view.

If instead you want to start at the north pole and walk away, you would need to reach the equator for it to be out of view.

So no, this does NOT prove Earth is not a ball rotating in space.
Instead, what we observes matches it quite well.

Again, compare this to a flat Earth with the stars circling above.
Then to an observer at the centre it would appear as circles. To everyone else, it would appear as ellipses, with no stars being blocked from view.

This proves it is not a flat disc with the stars circling above.

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Jorking Dey Venis

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Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2024, 07:36:02 PM »

They like to jump at opposite circles of stars, but never mention the rest of ball Earth isn’t going to see stars circling!


Hi, 40 degree latitude here, if I look north I see stars circling counterclockwise, if I look south I see them circle clockwise (albeit not the whole thing because it's obscured by the horizon). Any refutations or are you going to "nuh uh" me?

Re: Simple Test you can do (mostly) at home.
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2024, 01:02:09 AM »
FEers won't do this measurement because "already have the data".